Zinjo Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Myria and Max are completely unlike what I remember them as being - particularly Max. Maybe it was just the episode I watched; but Max was always very noble in SDFM, and suddenly he treats Miria with a distance that I just can't quite understand. Even if he's tired of his wife - I would remind everyone that Max was always a gentleman, and this had little to do with love. He could fall out of love with Miria, the passion could die out, but Max was always a gentleman - and I didn't find his exchange with Myria to be very...well...gentlemanly - it was more like a Military Leader blowing off a Civilian Leader... But then again - maybe I'm over-reacting... it's the whole conflict of interest thing... Max and Millia are separated by the time Mac 7 takes place. It seems like it happened around the time of her election as Mayor. I found Max to be a bit of a wimp with respect to Millia. He was the military commander of the fleet, yet she bossed him around often. It was clear they still fostered feelings for each other, but at the time, they were no living together anymore, so he had to keep his distance and probably needed to keep a professional detachment to function as fleet commander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Well Max wasn't always a gentleman in his head. I do recall being surprised when he's sizing up Miria while girl hunting and thinking to himself about her breast size "expands when unwrapped". You also have to take into account that they've been married for almost 30 years. Miria who was the Ace pilot of the zentraedi fleet has had to constantly live in the shadow of Max, arguably the greatest pilot in the human fleet, who was/is quite macho and had the "woman in the kitchen attitude". If what I remember reading on the Macross Compendium was correct, Miria was second in command of the fleet, until the straw broke the camels back and she decided to be number one of something and ran for mayor of city 7, to have the highest position of civilian authority, since she couldn't for military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 The VF-19K & P are probably the latest incarnation of the VF-19A, however whether the base model of those newer production fighters is still called the "A" isn't really mentioned. There's no VF-19K. It's just VF-19 Kai or Custom. Also, it is a non-production model because of it's custom-status. I found Max to be a bit of a wimp with respect to Millia. He was the military commander of the fleet, yet she bossed him around often. Well at least he's putting effort to put this rocky 30-some year marriage back into something manageable. That take guts, especially with Millia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I suspect you are right, because in VF-X2 the VF-19A is prominately shown as appearing nearly indentical to the YF-19 and that game takes place in 2050. The VF-19K & P are probably the latest incarnation of the VF-19A, however whether the base model of those newer production fighters is still called the "A" isn't really mentioned. What is the VF-19K? This is the first I've ever heard of this variant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 He means the one-off VF-19kai/custom probably (like azrael said), the Fire Valkyrie, BOMBA! At least it retained missiles that could actually blow stuff up, and the forward mounted wing-lasers. Although now that I just checked the compendium, it doesn't have head lasers listed. I guess the things on the side of the head are decorative, considering they don't appear in fighter, where they'd be needed most as rear-facing anti-aircraft/missile lasers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 According to the VF-X2 game, the VF-19A Excalibur looks like a blue colored YF-19. I don't know if it's canon, but that's what it is without a doubt. Tenjin Hidetaka's Art Works of Macross book features the blue YF-19 from VF-X2 and it's also called the VF-19A. All the design alterations don't happen until the VF-19F as far as I can tell. Sweet, that's what I needed to know. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 He means the one-off VF-19kai/custom probably (like azrael said), the Fire Valkyrie, BOMBA! At least it retained missiles that could actually blow stuff up, and the forward mounted wing-lasers. Although now that I just checked the compendium, it doesn't have head lasers listed. I guess the things on the side of the head are decorative, considering they don't appear in fighter, where they'd be needed most as rear-facing anti-aircraft/missile lasers. Yes that's what I meant, sorry for any confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Oops! Sorry azrael I guess I missed your post. Thank you for the clarification Sumdumgai (love your name). Bad Zinjoy, hehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Ok - finally managed to start from the beginning...with Episode 1... hmm... I very much agree with Max about the music - I just can't get into it. Glad he is of the same mind... I could imagine M7 even worse if mom and dad were big fans of Mylene's music too...eeee...brrrr.... The menacing attack of the Spiritia Snatching Vampires is lame. These guys don't scare me like the Zendradi or Nora and DD did... heck - they're all very plastic... oy space monsters in big purple mecha... Also - the fight scenes are just way too one sided - what? All those VF pilots - human and Zendradi - just suck balls and can't hit the Vampires but the Vampires can pinpoint them and then suck their spiritia? Sure sure, Gammil says only their leader is fast/capable - but the animation seems to suggest that oodles of VFs were blown to bits while the Vampires really get scared off by Bassra (not surprising - Bassra would scare off anyone)... And on that note: THIS MAKES NO SENSE AND REVEALS THE SUPERIORITY OF SDFM OVER DYRL. Huh? Let me explain. The Bridge Bunnies in Episode 1 of M7 note that apparently Bassra is "trying to be like Lyn Minmey" - and when one Bunny doesn't really recall the name, the other says "didn't you see the Movie? Dou you Remember Love?" "Oh yeah" the other one recalls... And this is fine, except the movie was just a movie and "censored out" one very important FACT of history: Namely that Lyn Minmey's songs were not a weapon without limit. What limit? Kamjin put it best when he kidnapped Minmey and Kyfun to barter their lives for a space ship and Minmey began singing in hopes of swaying him: "Your culture initially shocked us" and it doesn't work any more. In fact, Kamjin demonstrates that the Zendradi are capable of being "cultured brutes" - that is; they are very similar to humans who also have the capacity to feel both good and evil; to be moved by songs and intimate relations but also to kill and destroy. It's not surprise that the UN Spacey conveniantly left that part out of the DYRL movie - after all; much better to just end with the annihilation of Boldoza's fleet and the Culturing of the Zendradi... But in reality - music, while having some moving effect, nonetheless is not this all-powerful super weapon that just makes the enemy's legs wobble and makes him surrender and grow long hair and smell flowers. Yet in M7 - Bassra sings his way through 40 something episodes starting with episode 1 - and the effect of the singing is the same on the Vampires. Now - it could be argued that this is due to a specific weakness of the vampies, that Anime Spiritia which is harnessed from Bassra's singing is a potent weapon ....yadi-yadi-yadi-yaa... But this is silly. Lyn Minmey's songs were a "weapon" only because the Zendradi - despite their conditioning as soldiers; were still basically humans; beings with sentience and free will - and exposure to culture moved them to ask questions about happiness and the best way to live - many concluded warfare was not the best way to live. Bio-Technological breeding, which apparently enhanced genes that were responsible for violence, often made it more difficult for your typical Zendradi to control themselves for prolonged periods of time - but this is no different than saying that the Zendradi were simply a race whose majority was afflicted with something similar to turets syndrome. Fundamentally though - Minmey did not NEED to have any "anime spiritia" or any other scientifically measurable "wave" or "force" to work - it was enough that the Zendradi had free will and were thinking beings - and they were able to simply ccome to their own cconclusions upon coming into contact with her songs. Similarly - many Zendradi could reject those songs as lies, after experiencing the reality of alienation when trying to blend with Earth society. This really makes for an interesting saga, by the way. Now - M7 suddenly takes this element of free will and choice out of the equation. Songs simply happen to emit a scientifically measurable Anime Spiritia - something akin to specially atuned soundwaves- and these just happen to disable the Protodevilin. Technically - Bassra could sing "Blah- Blah-Yaddi Blah blah" and as long as there was enough passion in it - it would create Anime Spiritia levels that were adequate to the task - --- because apparently the strength of the Anime Spiritia was somewhat dependent on the passion of the singer? But this is just silly. It is NOT the same as Lyn Minmey - it is simply...as the UN Spacey rightly dubs it - a Sound Force. It's just a sonic weapon. Big deal. That's not Lyn Minmey. It's just soundwaves which apparently affect the brainwaves or something of the proto-devilin ---- in any case - the Protodevilin don't seem to be very conflicted over any of this... Well - except for that one Vampire with the Monocole....who does find himself moved by Bassra... But I'm talking about the rank and file - they just seem to disperse when they hear the music....and then come back later... But if their free will and thought were moved by the music ---- why don't swarths of Protodevilin mutiny? They don't mutiny because apparently it is not their thinking and their hearts that are under "attack" by culture - it's just a sonic attack which you have to run from like gas. So that's basically the power of Bassra: the equivalent of a long range fart scaring off the enemy who then comes back when the stench disperses. Not exiting. VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger69 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) I've finished watching Macross 7 (49 episodes+Encore+Dynamite+Movie) and as a bottom-line "I LOVE Macross 7" VF's, City 7, Battle 7... they are just wonderful designs. And I adore Mylene way further than Minmei... In fact, I don't really feel any affection (OK maybe some at the first episodes) with Minmei with her puppetmaster Kaifun... But the love triangle between Basara, Mylene and Gamlin is much more enjoyable and funny. Protodeviln and sound force are the concepts that I can accept in Macross universe. Yes, there is a lot of scene and music cycling going on, but at the end, it's a beatiful series. I really appreciate VFTF1's free will interpretation, although power of the songs was only tested on Zentraedi and we didn't know it's effects on other species. By the way Protodeviln is not a kind of beings that humans have the similar ancestors, so the effect of the songs may be (in fact was) different. And yes, Guvava rules! Edited October 11, 2007 by charger69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 But I'm talking about the rank and file - they just seem to disperse when they hear the music....and then come back later... But if their free will and thought were moved by the music ---- why don't swarths of Protodevilin mutiny? They don't mutiny because apparently it is not their thinking and their hearts that are under "attack" by culture - it's just a sonic attack which you have to run from like gas. So that's basically the power of Bassra: the equivalent of a long range fart scaring off the enemy who then comes back when the stench disperses. Not exiting. VFTF1 To interject into this point of view, the "rank and file" were somehow mind controlled by the PD, so any affect music had on the Zentreadi would not necessarily be the same on beings without free will. However I can hear the distant stomping of Keith's boots toward this thread already.... The one thing that is true about Macross 7 is that it is provocative very few Macross fans do not have an opinion about it, be it good or bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I agree that Macross 7 is a little on the cheese side and alot of it reminded me of Gundam but it was a story that had to be told. You can't go wrong with max and millia and M7 gave the viewers a much more broad view of the post-space war 1 era of colonization and of the macross galaxy as a whole. It sets a good stage for future macross projects. We know that there's tons of macross colony fleets heading to all reaches of the galaxy. They could make a series about any of those fleets and it would be interesting at the very least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I agree that Macross 7 is a little on the cheese side and alot of it reminded me of Gundam but it was a story that had to be told. You can't go wrong with max and millia and M7 gave the viewers a much more broad view of the post-space war 1 era of colonization and of the macross galaxy as a whole. It sets a good stage for future macross projects. We know that there's tons of macross colony fleets heading to all reaches of the galaxy. They could make a series about any of those fleets and it would be interesting at the very least Hmmm, yeah and what if they called it Macross Frontier?? Oh wait, that'd never work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Haha it can follow the story of hikaru and misa who have started a travelling space band and travel in a space ship shaped like a saratoga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Ok - I'va watched episode 3 just now... Taking the advice from this board, I'm watching 1 episode a day... and yeah - it does seem better with each watch... although the format is a little childish...just the same themes played out....bassra's got a concert...he doesn't want to sing...Mylena getting mad....Bassra being late....aliens attacking...the military mad at Bassra....Bassra sings and the aliens go away.... Isn't that what happened in the past two episodes? The only thing that makes it interesting is the interaction between the characters - which is somewhat expanding; particularly the Max/Myllia interview. But the best thing: The show is self-critical! The Kings and Queens fans who shouted that Bassra's music sucks.... they were sort of indicative of the fact that Fire Bomber is a controversial band.... there's something to it... but it's the kind of music others can feel sucks... So I liked that - liked to see that Bassra's music didn't automatically win everyone over. In fact - ok - I'll give a big point to M7 on this: SDFM was kind of unrealistic insofar as Lyn Minmey was pretty much the ONLY show in town. I mean - we saw in the Miss Macross concert that Minmey had other competition - and I understand her being a hit... and later she becomes less popular... but we never see the other cultural elements on the Macross.... always it's Lyn, Lyn Lyn... Here we see some other bands and they're cool. Also like the metro - it's like the one I live next to ! And final note: Bassra is kind of like Kyfun, Rick and Minmey mixed together. No wonder he's annoying - he has all of Kyfun's arrogance, none of Minmey's looks, and all of Rick's youngish...well..no..actually...he just has all of Kyfun's arrogance. Rick was a young leader, but a serious young man in many ways - not a whiner like Bassra... oh...heck...no comparrison really... Oh well - I said something nice about M7 in there somewhere. VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 If you watch M7 as a parody of the Macross universe it makes it much more palatable. It's almost like they went for the whole, "Let's mess with the super serious space drama genre and have fun with it... We might upset our peers if we make fun of them, so let's make fun of ourselves..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Haha that or studio nue is just straight up insane. Or at the very least, senile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Ashi Productions did the animation for Macross 7. I imagine Studio Nue didn't have a lot to do with the directing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 The animation is fine. The story is what matters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 The director of Macross 7 was Tetsuro Amino. Here's his homepage. He directed such works as Layzner, Iron Leager, SD Gundam Counterattack, SD Gundam Gaiden, and a bunch more. He has a lot of light hearted shows under his belt and I think that's what he brought to the table for Macross 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 The director of Macross 7 was Tetsuro Amino. Here's his homepage. He directed such works as Layzner, Iron Leager, SD Gundam Counterattack, SD Gundam Gaiden, and a bunch more. He has a lot of light hearted shows under his belt and I think that's what he brought to the table for Macross 7. That would explain a lot! Directors have the final say in most anime productions, good and bad. Studio Nue did the pre-production and SK did the story outlines, how that was interpreted most likely fell to the writing staff at Ashi Productions and Amino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alindasue Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Yes, there is a lot of scene and music cycling going on, but at the end, it's a beatiful series. The interesting thing is that with all the music cycling going on - especially the excessive use of "Planet Dance" - there still managed to be a good two dozen Fire Bomber songs used in the 49 episodes, plus another dozen or so more songs used in the four M7 Dynamite episodes. The fact that even with that many songs they were still able to manage repeating a few to excess AND borrowing songs from the other Macross series demonstrates just how much music there was in the series. peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 JVC Victor was laughing all the way to the bank with Macross 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsain Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 As tired as I got of Planet Dance and My Soul for You, I thought it did bring some realism to the band dynamic. I mean, for the first half of the series, they pretty much just had the songs from the Planet Dance album. So when they practiced, they played those songs; when they were in concert, they played the songs they'd practiced. The repetitiveness seems realistic. Think of BTO - cursed for over two decades to play Taking Care of Business virtually every night. At least when the second batch of songs came around, they had more to shuffle around. Speaking of which, is there an mp3 or cd anywhere of Mylene singing Light the Light, as in the possessed Gamlin episode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 (edited) JVC Victor was laughing all the way to the bank with Macross 7. No doubt they were one of the principle sponsors, hence had a say in the direction of the show... It may be why there is a Macross consortium sponsoring Mac Frontier, which gives the studio more control over the show and less to the sponsors when the money is secured from many sources... (all speculation about the JVC Victor's level of sponsorship of course). ... The repetitiveness seems realistic.... I've never really heard Mac 7 described as realistic before (well besides Keith )... Edited October 16, 2007 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Wow! Episode 7 is...great! NOW I understand why this series has some fans... Bassra having to fire missiles is a wonderful nod to REALISM and his grappling with the guilt and the test of his faith in the power of his music and his ability to transmit that power to others is well done. The dynamic between Mylene and the others is fantastic - and Mylene's outfits and hair are CUTE! (Unlike in the late 30s episodes!) Alice is a nice touch; the Vampires are kind of silly but niffty and ok - and they certainly serve to move the plot along. The bodyguards - glad to see they're at it... And Lovelock's pink peckers and Stephen...err.... Lovelock IS gay - yes? I mean - or at least bi-sexual? After all - his friend was named Stephen - and Stephen IS the gay son from Dynasty... or am I reading too much into the name (please, no attacks by any real Stephens on the board:) ) Sure - Stephen had a girlfriend... ergo my thinking that it's all bi-sexual - a love triangle, classical Macross, albeit bi-sexual aka MMF and not MFF?? All in all this is a fun series. I guess the first few episodes were repetative and probably the last few episodes are too .... OH! And FINALLY some kick ass new Valk footage!! Beautiful VF-19 transformation and Gamlin's valk kicks but too Good stuff. Oh... heh...keep trying to end and remembering things... The kimono - and Mylene wearing the kimono that Gamlin gave her as a way to use "non-rational" means to convince Bassra ala the Meldrani Drummer's advice: THIS IS GOOD PLOT! My opinion of M7 has gone up. VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermillion01 Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Finally got around to watching the rest of M7... and for anyone that hasnt seen it or is having problems watching it.. persevere. its gets better. I really struggled with the first 10-15 episodes, i didnt like it at all.. i thought i'd smash my tv if i heard "Planet Dance" one more time and really wanted Basara to die a very painfull death.. but.. sometime around episode 20 (or so) its gets much better. When Basara accepts Mylene and realises that she too has power and even the dynamic between Basara and Gamlin gets interesting. It's still very repetative musically , but they do get new songs (thankfully). Mylene's solo stuff is the best. SO.. if you havent watched it yet, its hard to like at first, but keep going. You will be rewarded for your patience. - i'm off to dowload the soundtracks now. thats my 2c anyhoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Focker Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Not sure if Ray is gay but his typical form of dress is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermillion01 Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Not sure if Ray is gay but his typical form of dress is. I didnt really pick up on the ray is gay thing.. aside from the 'pink pecker' SQ (whic is just dumb.. i'd be asking for a transfer like yesterday!) he seemed pretty normal. I wish Veffidas had a couple more lines than the 4 she had. Mylene was easily the most likeable character with Gamlin (after his change of heart) being second... i even stopped hating Basara by the end (still didnt like him tho). Wished we saw Max & Miria get back together properly... but their last flight was cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I am once again in mixed feeling land- albeit it's between 'ok' and 'really good' .... Although yeah - the first few episodes are horrendous when compared to the rest of the story... Anyway... The music: Missing is the melancholy sounds that we often saw in SDFM - namely the violin - and the ensuing idea that war is tragic, horrible, disgusting and evil... I mean - I dunno - I get the feeling that that's missing ...M7 is a bit too GI JOE in that regard... and sure, Mylene trembles and frets over the gruesome remains of the M5 crew, but you just don't get the feeling - over the course of the story - that there are civilians suffering, and that death is something really bad... On that note - please notice that in SDFM, when the humans paired with the Zendradi, and Hikaru noticed that Max was not killing Zens but dissabling them at Millia's behest, this became standard procedure - at least for skull squadron... So music not only brought together Zendradi and humans - it also caused humans to treat the Zendradi like wayward brothers and go to great lengths not to kill them... Cut to Macross 7 Bassra is basically the muse of death. His singing doesn't stop the battle - it only energizes the killing - case in point is Commander Kinky of the Diamond Force and his Bassara-Inspired Suicide Run.... But the pilots in thos Valks are humans mind controled by the protodevilin - so why not make some effort to rescue them? Or at least acknolwedge how sad it is to have to kill them? Finally - I return to my point about Anime Spiritia being a determinate force versus Minmey's music swaying the free will of the Zendradi and how the latter is suprerior - story wise - to the former --- which takes its' ultimate form in the battle of swirly colors between Grabil and Sound Force... I'm entering the parts I really don't like now... but when we get to the Pyramid it gets better. VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 If the Jenius family and all the refferences to SDFM were left out of M7, it would have been horrible. I think they took the singing a little too far. Minmay was cool cause she didn't expect her music to free the zentradi. She just liked to sing. Basara on the other hand is a wannabe minmay with a god complex. Minmays music confused the zentradi which made them feel emotion and question their lifestyle. It didn't kill them It also wasn't just the singing that they liked, they also liked all the stuff the 3 spies had brought back. They liked our culture as a whole, not just for the music. Plus minmay and her music was like a side plot almost. It wasn't the main focus of the story which was cool. If SDFM was all about minmay, it wouldn't have been as good which is why M7 didn't blow anyones socks off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Hmm.... some Revoltech Protodevilin would be cool. Sevil for obvious reasons, but Gigil, and Vorgat - that dude who shoots sperm from his stomach - would be great... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Now that was the most unique description I have ever heard of a protodevlin ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Hmm.... some Revoltech Protodevilin would be cool. Sevil for obvious reasons, but Gigil, and Vorgat - that dude who shoots sperm from his stomach - would be great... Dude, I can think of a DOZEN other Macross mecha for Revoltech to do long before the clownish PD!! I'd rather see a painted resin statue of Sivil, than some toy... One of the best character designs from the series.... Edited October 31, 2007 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Aye, a Sivil resin statue would own. like a 12 inch statue. All the other PD looked like something out of Voltron LoL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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