Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[d3v]

This is, of course, not including things like the coefficient of friction (neglible outside of an atmosphere) and the force of gravity*.

I'm not really up to snuff on the math, but I remember right, the power requirements needed to overcome air resistance as the speed goes up rises exponentially (and quite steeply at that).

[ChronoReverse]

First of all, the VF-27 still have two times the T/W ratio.

Second of all, the VF-1 with FAST Packs has nearly four times the mass of a VF-27.

You can conclude your assertion is unfounded.

FV

Hey, read that quote again! I said the VF-25 with the VF-1's FAST packs! Although you're right about it being heavier...

Mass empty: 13250 kg * with FAST Pack system: 19200 kg

But the FAST pack isn't _that_ heavy. The VF-27 itself is quite a bit heavier than the VF-25.

I'm not really up to snuff on the math, but I remember right, the power requirements needed to overcome air resistance as the speed goes up rises exponentially (and quite steeply at that).

Yup, that's why I clearly noted the extremely limited conditions my assertions were for as well as the assumptions that limit the accuracy =)

Edited October 18, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[d3v]

Yup, that's why I clearly noted the extremely limited conditions my assertions were for as well as the assumptions that limit the accuracy =)

So... anyone got access to a windtunnel and some CFD software.

[sketchley]

The one nice thing about the official stats that have been released (for the majority of VFs) is that a max speed at 10,000 m (sometimes higher) is provided.

Mind you (directed at the general reader and no one in specific), that has less to do with the thrust outputs of the engines, and more to do with the airframe's ability to deal with the heat from air friction.

I'm not really up to snuff on the math, but I remember right, the power requirements needed to overcome air resistance as the speed goes up rises exponentially (and quite steeply at that).

[hobbes221]

Off of the running topic right now but I had an idea and would like your thoughts. The VF-27 has a internal fold system right? The only place that I could see it being mounted would be in the dorsal area of the VF. If that is the case then could the VF-25 also be outfitted with the same system at some point? Given the way that that section of the VF doesn't really change in any mode you could even see something along the lines of a dorsal spine like the one added to some F-16s for more room for added systems at later dates, they were already able to add the radar system for the RVF there so I think that this is possible, what do you guys think?

[ChronoReverse]

Was it conclusively proven that it has an internal fold engine? The time it folded away from the SMS it was actually inside the fold bubble of a capital ship.

[hobbes221]

Was it conclusively proven that it has an internal fold engine? The time it folded away from the SMS it was actually inside the fold bubble of a capital ship.

There was the scene at the end of episode 7 I think that show Brera's -27 and one other without fold packs mounted.

Not the best pic but too lazy to find a good one, sorry.

Edited October 18, 2008 by hobbes221

[Mr March]

I think the assumption the VF-27 has an internal fold engine was made BEFORE we all understood the way in which fold space was being handled in Macross Frontier. We saw the VF-27 flying around inside fold space and just assumed it needed a fold drive to do so. But we've since seen the VF-27 with a fold booster, so we have to assume the VF-27 requires a fold booster to travel through fold space on it's own, just like all the other valkyries.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Mr March

[hobbes221]

I think the assumption the VF-27 has an internal fold engine was made because we didn't understand the way fold space was being handled in Macross Frontier. We saw the VF-27 flying around inside fold space and just assumed it needed a fold drive to do so. But we've since seen the VF-27 with a fold booster, so we have to assume it needs one just like all the other valkyries.

Good point, I just thought that the fold booster that Brera used when he took Ranka was that new type that allowed for real time (not sure of the right term) folds and also maybe allowed longer ranged folds.

-Edit- I think I missed the topic on how Frontier was handling fold space, could you review?

Edited October 18, 2008 by hobbes221

[Mr March]

Fold space in Macross Frontier isn't really all that different from fold space up until now, but the execution seems a little different. Granted, all previous Macross shows seemed to handle fold space differently each time it was shown. Space folding in SDF Macross was shown differently in DYRL? which was shown differently in Macross Plus which was shown differently in Macross 7. So really, there is no "true" depiction of space folding, unless you want to write off everything post SDF Macross (which may not work, since space folding is shown in different ways even WITHIN the SDF Macross series)

Having said that, in previous Macross shows there seemed to be more displacement in the manner in which vessels folded space; they just "popped" in and out of space. Now this is not to say they didn't have inertia, because both the ASS-1 and the Zentradi fleet that followed in SDF Macross came out of fold space while flying forward. But they always just "arrived".

In Macross Frontier, there definitely appears to be some kind of portal or entrance/egress into fold space. In the past, a ship simply entered or exited fold space in a single instant. The shift between the two dimensions was always instantaneous. But Frontier created a "gate" system of sorts, in which a ship slowly passed through a portal-like opening allowing the ship to "sail" or "coast" between fold space and real space. Same displacement, different way of doing it. Fold space itself also looks a bit different than it did in Macross Plus (which was like a rainbow-colored bubble bath) and obviously SDF Macross only showed very little of fold space (which appeared as a landscape-less and bright multicolored realm).

The one thing that isn't certain is the nature of that "portal" in Frontier. Is the portal itself in motion or is the ship? Is the portal projected ahead of the ship and then pulled over the vessel by the space fold engine? Or must a ship open the portal at a fixed point in space and then propel itself through the portal via it's own conventional rockets engines? Or is it both?

Anyway, that's about it. There still appears to be that audible echo when space folding, which I always liked.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Mr March

[hobbes221]

Thanks again for all the insights Mr March, always look forward to your take on things.

-We really need/want a 'Jane's All the World's Valkyries' to help clear all this up.

[Fade Rathnik]

Well ultimately we don't know if it does or doesn't have a fold drive sense the only external fold drive its been seen with is a new type. We all know what advantages the new boosters have and its been seen in fold space without a drive.

I think its ultimately better to say that its inconclusive weather there is a traditional fold drive internally. Although it would make sense for a strike fighter like the VF-27, I am kinda leaning tword it not being there. All the small scale fold drives we've seen so far have parts that are covered by a transparent material and tend to glow when active. The VF-27 has nothing on the fighter that looks like it could be a fold system, but with those extra engines it likely has the room and power to have one.

I do ultimately think Antares Squadron was on the Dulfim and that the whole first attack story arc was a stunt to drag Frontier into a war and sneak Antares Squadron onto Frontier. At the end of the battle they just piggy backed with the Dulfim.

[Mr March]

I think all the VF-27 did was travel alongside a fold capable vehicle, like Mikhail did with the Vajra ships leaving Gallia IV. We all had a tendency to over-analyze Macross Frontier while it was still airing, but I think the "internal fold drive" is just a brain bug that outlived it's usefulness as a legitimate theory. Since the evidence has shown piggybacking in fold space while all fold boosters (normal and super) are still shown at roughly the Macross Plus era size, it's more likely than not the VF-27 has no internal fold drives.

[RedWolf]

But episode 24 does bear into question whether Ghosts have internal fold engines.

One Frontier AIF-7S Ghost was scouting the Vajra planet.

[ChronoReverse]

Any reason why a ghost can't just piggyback a drop-booster like a valkyrie?

[azrael]

Any reason why a ghost can't just piggyback a drop-booster like a valkyrie?

No reason why a Ghost couldn't use an external fold booster or have a ship defold and send out a Ghost. I doubt Ghosts have internal fold systems.

Chances are, Brera and his VF-27s hitched a ride with the 2 ships from Galaxy, hid during the fight, came in as needed, then hitched a ride on the remaining ship.

[sketchley]

... or they do have internal fold drives, but they are extremely limited. For example, the Shinnakasu Industry/OTEC FBF-1000A external fold booster, seen in Macross Plus, 7, etc., is limited to trips less than 20 light years.

Given that it is a pretty large booster, and despite micronization from technological progression, I doubt that any internal VF fold drives would meet or exceed that 20 light year range.

Therefore, it's plausible that the VF-27 has an internal fold booster, just that if it wants to go any significant distance, it needs an external one.

Not that I believe that the VF-27 has an internal fold booster or anything. Unlike the internal weapon pallets on the VF-25, there's no precedent in Macross for it.

Edited October 19, 2008 by sketchley

[badboy00z]

Does the leg attachment of the Super Pack carry missiles?

[Final Vegeta]

Hey, read that quote again! I said the VF-25 with the VF-1's FAST packs! Although you're right about it being heavier...

Ah, sorry, there was so much emphasis on the VF-1 I was confused. Yes, the VF-25 with FAST Packs is faster than the VF-25 without (and the VF-25 with full armor is as fast a a standard VF-25). So yes, the VF-25 with FAST Packs should be comparable to the VF-27.

FV

[Graham]

... or they do have internal fold drives, but they are extremely limited. For example, the Shinnakasu Industry/OTEC FBF-1000A external fold booster, seen in Macross Plus, 7, etc., is limited to trips less than 20 light years.

Just to expand on that, the Compendium lists it as being "not certified for performing beyond an one-way limit of 20 light years".

Graham

[d3v]

Hey, read that quote again! I said the VF-25 with the VF-1's FAST packs! Although you're right about it being heavier...

I'm assuming that this is a typo and that you mean a VF-25 with Super Pack.

[anime52k8]

I'm assuming that this is a typo and that you mean a VF-25 with Super Pack.

no, he's talking about somehow mounting the boosters from the VF-1 FAST packs onto a VF-25. (how you could possibly do that, I have no idea)

[ChronoReverse]

I was saying that IF it could attach, THEN the thrust available from even such an old booster would propel the VF-25 up to VF-27 territory. It also turns out that the mass of the booster is low enough that the combined masses is still in the ballpark of the VF-27.

My implied conclusion from that is that the VF-25 with modern FAST packs should easily keep pace with the VF-27 if not exceed it.

[Knight26]

Just to expand on that, the Compendium lists it as being "not certified for performing beyond an one-way limit of 20 light years".

Graham

You know that kind of makes sense. Think about it, the normal fold booster from the Mac+/7 era has a range of about 20LY, but it is reusable and therefore built larger and more robust. BUt you detach it as soon as you get in theatre because it has too much mass and would hinder your combat effectiveness. Now that is fine, if the mission is a success and you can get back to it, but what if the mission goes bad and you have to beat feet out of dodge and don't have time to attach the booster before some big bad blasts you out of space. Well if you have a simpler one way fold booster there is your answer. The thing is probably only good for one use no matter the range you go, so it is basically a last ditch escape measure.

[DarkReaper]

Macross 7: Dynamite shows us that you don't have attach the fold booster to use it. You just need to be in close contact with it and it links up wirelessly.

[ChronoReverse]

Macross 7 FotSW also shows you can just carry it to use (Basara doing a short ranged jump in battroid mode carry a fold booster under one arm).

Edited October 20, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Mr March]

Macross 7: Dynamite shows us that you don't have attach the fold booster to use it. You just need to be in close contact with it and it links up wirelessly.

Was that Laiza in the Teal colored VF-17D Nightmare? I think you're right. I'd forgotten about that.

[Morpheus]

I think that's the problem with folding in Frontier, since they depicted it completely different with the rest of the series. On the other series, folding is achieved by surrounding the vessel inside the fold bubble and jumping it to fold.

In Frontier, fold is depicted like jumping through a fold portal/hyperspace portal. When Frontier performing their ultra long range fold, the entire island generated a gigantic fold portal and the entire island went through it. Assuming the rest of the defense fleet is in proximity with Frontier island, they can enter the portal. During the all out attack on the Vajra homeworld, each of the ship performing their own fold and produced multiple jump portal as we see it.

This raise some question, if the fold portal is generated by the folding ship and then aborting it just before it went through the portal, what happened to other vessel (not the ship which generated the fold portal) which enter the portal just before it was closed? Does it got stuck in fold space forever or it will be thrown out to normal space just like what happened to Hikaru Valk when they escaped Vrilthwai ship during folding (DYRL).

Another question is how far the fold portal could be generated, in epi.14 we saw Alto VF-25 are capable of generating the portal quite far away before he enters it.

--Lets the Cat Girls massacre begins--

[d3v]

I think that's the problem with folding in Frontier, since they depicted it completely different with the rest of the series. On the other series, folding is achieved by surrounding the vessel inside the fold bubble and jumping it to fold.

In Frontier, fold is depicted like jumping through a fold portal/hyperspace portal. When Frontier performing their ultra long range fold, the entire island generated a gigantic fold portal and the entire island went through it. Assuming the rest of the defense fleet is in proximity with Frontier island, they can enter the portal. During the all out attack on the Vajra homeworld, each of the ship performing their own fold and produced multiple jump portal as we see it.

This raise some question, if the fold portal is generated by the folding ship and then aborting it just before it went through the portal, what happened to other vessel (not the ship which generated the fold portal) which enter the portal just before it was closed? Does it got stuck in fold space forever or it will be thrown out to normal space just like what happened to Hikaru Valk when they escaped Vrilthwai ship during folding (DYRL).

Another question is how far the fold portal could be generated, in epi.14 we saw Alto VF-25 are capable of generating the portal quite far away before he enters it.

--Lets the Cat Girls massacre begins--

Actually, I raised this point some time back and someone (I think it was Mr. March) pointed out that the depiction of folds in previous Macross's was pretty inconsistent, we have the fold bubble situation in some cases (Dynamite 7, SDFM when the SDF-1 folded out with the island), while other times we have the ships simply appearing and dissappearing and then we have cases where the craft boosts forward in a bright spectacle of light - similar to Frontier.

[Graham]

Regarding the inconsistencies on how fold space and entering/departing fold space is shown in the various Macross animes.

It could be there are different types of fold drive technology used in the Macross universe.

They all get you from A to B, but each type does it slightly differently.

Afterall, mankind has had 60 years to study, tinker with and perhaps improve on the original fold technolgy found in the ASS-1, so it wouldn't surprise me if some changes or improvements to the original technology have been made during this time.

Thought I'd mention this as a possible 'in universe' explanation, as nobody seems to have considered it.

Graham

[d3v]

Regarding the inconsistencies on how fold space and entering/departing fold space is shown in the various Macross animes.

It could be there are different types of fold drive technology used in the Macross universe.

They all get you from A to B, but each type does it slightly differently.

Afterall, mankind has had 60 years to study, tinker with and perhaps improve on the original fold technolgy found in the ASS-1, so it wouldn't surprise me if some changes or improvements to the original technology have been made during this time.

Thought I'd mention this as a possible 'in universe' explanation, as nobody seems to have considered it.

Graham

Interesting idea. Maybe the reason we see the new fold gates instead of the bubbles was so that incidents like the SDF-1 taking South Ataria with it would be avoided in the future.

[anime52k8]

Regarding the inconsistencies on how fold space and entering/departing fold space is shown in the various Macross animes.

It could be there are different types of fold drive technology used in the Macross universe.

They all get you from A to B, but each type does it slightly differently.

Afterall, mankind has had 60 years to study, tinker with and perhaps improve on the original fold technolgy found in the ASS-1, so it wouldn't surprise me if some changes or improvements to the original technology have been made during this time.

Thought I'd mention this as a possible 'in universe' explanation, as nobody seems to have considered it.

Graham

actually that's just what I was thinking.

just like there are different types of jet engine, maybe there are different types of fold engine. all of them work on the same basic scientific/mathematical principles, but using different technologies.

[RedWolf]

Perhaps that is what they meant by using Spece Whale products in fold engines make them more efficient.

It is implied that Space Whale based engines are better and sought after by criminals.

In Dynamite 7 the Whales folded out by accelerating and entering a split second portal.

[klam1020]

From HLJ 12

[Mr March]

Very nice! It's funny how "evil" the Battle Galaxy looks