Gubaba Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi there. Not really a newbie to Macross, just my first time getting into it 100% (I've owned Macross Plus on VHS for years, and have seen Macross II and subtitled Macross: DYRL, which I loved, and Flashback). Right now I'm basically seeing three titles at once- Macross Frontier (almost finished, on ep 24), Macross Zero (finished ep 1) and the original Superdimension Fortress Macross (just finished episode 11). And I gotta say, this is awesome. I've always enjoyed what I've seen of Macross, but right now I'm just completely under the spell of the whole franchise. It's an action show, a character drama, a war drama, and love story all rolled into one. And not just me- my mom too (she's the furthest thing from a sci fi fan you'll ever meet, and she just spent the day watching the first six episodes on DVD). Loving everything Macross right now. But you'll notice that the one series not listed above is Macross 7. Not that I haven't given the series a shot, but Basara so rubbed me the wrong way after the first couple of episodes, I pretty much gave up on it. But I was intrigued by the idea of characters from the original show like Max, Miria (who so far I've only seen in DYRL but I think is awesome) and Exedore continuing on in their own stories years later. So I want to know- is it worth going on with Mac 7 after I've finished the others? Or have I wisely jumped ship after a couple of episodes? Reactions vary, but I think most people would agree that the series doesn't really pick up until somewhere between episodes 14 and 20. It never becomes the serious war drama that a lot of people would've liked, but as the plot (slowly, slowly) gets revealed, there is a lot to like (IMHO, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I agree with Gubaba. When I first looked at it and watched the first episode I had serious doubts that I could get into it. It seemed silly, nonsensical, and a waste of time compared to the classics and Frontier. I might just be the best example of someone who was completely won over by Fire Bomber and the song energy concept. I had always liked Japanese rock music so I listed to some Fire Bomber and I really got into it, and if you can like the music the show becomes a lot easier to watch. I believe it was even Gubaba there who said it is less like a war drama with mecha in it like the original and more like a story about a rock band that has a mecha fought war going on at the same time. For me, liking the music well enough I started really getting into it after 5 episodes but the plot moves very slowly. I kept watching and bit by bit it picked up, you just need to keep with it. Now I'm not going to lie, Basara is an arrogant self absorbed jerk as he is. However if you pay attention to him enough in the show (as well as in Galaxy is Calling Me and Dynamite 7) what he says and does start to make sense and at least in my case I found I can respect him. The music is the best trait of the character but also he is somehow the best pilot on Macross 7 except for Max Jenius himself, and he does it while playing a guitar at the same time! (In the show the guitar is part of the control for the valkyrie but in Dynamite 7 he is able to fly a valk with standard controls by manipulating them with an acoustic guitar, no run of the mill pilot can do that!) So I say don't judge it on what little you have seen. It may be difficult to tolerate the type of story, the slow pace, and Basara at first; but if you keep an open mind I think it will grow on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chukissaki Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I remembered reading somewhere about some significance with the SDF Macross episode ending, where the person is looking at pictures and turning the pages of the photo album. Who is this supposed to be ? Anyone know? Have I just lost my mind ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I remembered reading somewhere about some significance with the SDF Macross episode ending, where the person is looking at pictures and turning the pages of the photo album. Who is this supposed to be ? Anyone know? Have I just lost my mind ? Shouldn't this be in the Newbie Questions Thread? As far as I know, there's no real significance to the ending credits, unless you count Hikaru's almost identical photo album in episode 28, and Misa closing the "Farwell [or was it "So long"?], 2012" photo album at the very end of the series. Although I think the hand turning the pages in the credits is too big and manly to be Misa's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) So I want to know- is it worth going on with Mac 7 after I've finished the others? Or have I wisely jumped ship after a couple of episodes? This is probably one of the most asked questions regarding Macross 7 and the only real answer is you must watch it for yourself to know for sure. Everyone has a different reaction to Macross 7. I watched the first 12 episodes of Macross 7 many years ago and like yourself, I was unimpressed and gave up. I re-watched the entire series just two years ago and I can honestly say I think I dislike the series even more now that I've seen it all than if I had simply stopped at episode 12. It's that bad. But that's me. I will say that if you're on a Macross high, you should stick with it and watch it. You're basically watching the entire franchise anyway, so you might as well finish it up. Then you can critique Macross having seen everything. Edited January 5, 2009 by Mr March Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Although I think the hand turning the pages in the credits is too big and manly to be Misa's... Maybe it was MisaForever hand Judging from the helmet beside the album, it was probably Hikaru..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Macross 7 is just like Basara, most people will hate it if you see it/him several times, but if you tag along it/him for several episodes more, you will begin to like it. Although I have to admit that the reason I started to watch Mac7 are Battle-7 bridge bunnies. Max and VF-17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Shouldn't this be in the Newbie Questions Thread? <voice="WALL-E">Ta da</voice> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Robot Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Loving everything Macross right now. But you'll notice that the one series not listed above is Macross 7. Not that I haven't given the series a shot, but Basara so rubbed me the wrong way after the first couple of episodes, I pretty much gave up on it. But I was intrigued by the idea of characters from the original show like Max, Miria (who so far I've only seen in DYRL but I think is awesome) and Exedore continuing on in their own stories years later. So I want to know- is it worth going on with Mac 7 after I've finished the others? Or have I wisely jumped ship after a couple of episodes? Macross 7 is just like Basara, most people will hate it if you see it/him several times, but if you tag along it/him for several episodes more, you will begin to like it. Just the same problem YJK describes was much of why it took me multiple attempts stretched over several years to watch more than ten episodes into Macross 7. Like Morpheus said, I got to like Macross 7 once I got past that slow and unfamiliar start, from the standpoint of generally interesting cast, fine little bits of comedy, and a plot that was enjoyable once it got moving 15-20 episodes in. Unlike Morpheus said, I never grew to like Basara: I more realized I didn't need to. Mylene is as viable as the story's lead and much more its narrator(since the audience is never really placed in his head, so to speak), so I found it more comfortable to just assume he was a powerful plot device/fan favorite associated with the focal character, like KOS-MOS from Xenosaga only with more singing. Now, that might be a valid critical viewpoint or it might be an exercise in self-delusion, but it helped me enjoy the series. My main point is that while a lot of people will make out Macross 7 "Basara's story", there's a big cast and another and maybe more sympathetic lead. On the other hand, Dynamite 7 is basically nothing but Basara going out alone on his personal quest, so it's another case entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream Man Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 My main issue with mac 7 is that its a bit dragged out and repetitive. but once u get into it, it's a lot of fun to watch. Its a Rock comedy that happens to have jets. Think of it like that and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YJK Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Another question- what exactly is the long term colonization plan for the series? On one hand, in Macross Frontier they are looking for long term habitable planets, but in Macross Plus, the planet Eden is already colonized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Another question- what exactly is the long term colonization plan for the series? On one hand, in Macross Frontier they are looking for long term habitable planets, but in Macross Plus, the planet Eden is already colonized. The other fleets are looking for more planets like Eden to make more colony worlds for humanity. Frontier found one in the Vajra home world at the end of the series. Macross 7 as far as we know is still searching. Macross 5 found Lux but they were all taken by the Protodeviln later and then Gigile destroyed Lux to save Sivil so that doesn't really count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The other fleets are looking for more planets like Eden to make more colony worlds for humanity. Frontier found one in the Vajra home world at the end of the series. Macross 7 as far as we know is still searching. Macross 5 found Lux but they were all taken by the Protodeviln later and then Gigile destroyed Lux to save Sivil so that doesn't really count. Hmm, probably the real aim of the colonization is to "colonize a planet with ancient protoculture ruins on it", who knows, there are probably ancient protoculture ruins directly beneath New Edwards base or under Sharon Apple concert hall in Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Another question- what exactly is the long term colonization plan for the series? On one hand, in Macross Frontier they are looking for long term habitable planets, but in Macross Plus, the planet Eden is already colonized. The goal is to get humanity spread on as many planets as possible, so that something like Space War 1 can't wipe everything out. You'll understand why when you get there. Misa explains it towards the end of the original series(I think it's in the final episode, actually). I'm assuming you're asking for a broader "why" than the more technical goal Dex posted. Edited January 6, 2009 by JB0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hmm, probably the real aim of the colonization is to "colonize a planet with ancient protoculture ruins on it", who knows, there are probably ancient protoculture ruins directly beneath New Edwards base or under Sharon Apple concert hall in Eden. I don't believe they are strictly searching for planets with protoculture ruins, just human sustaining planets. The Vajra homeworld doesn't likely have any protoculture ruins since Grace stated they existed even at the same time as the Protoculture (and that the PC feared and worshiped them to the extent of imitating their form, ala AFOS in Macross Zero). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Global says that the idea behind colonization is to prevent humanity from becoming like the Zendradi - a race geared only for war. Remember that after Space War I, Hikaru and the gang were sent on a very sobering and sad mission: to capture the Satelite Factory which could build space faring warships. Everyone realized that doing so meant that humanity risked becoming a warrior race like the Zendradi. Even though it was logical insofar as it was necessary for self-defense, the risk of over-militarizing and becoming a warrior race was there and so the choice was made to spread humanity throughout the stars - to seperate people from eachother really; in the hopes that culture would survive and even if some human colonies became war-like and destructive, other colonies would sing and make love. As for whether or not it's worth it to watch Macross 7: Without a doubt it is the best Macross series. And no - Basara does not ever become less annoying - he becomes more annoying and that is why you should watch it Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fadeout Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I don't believe they are strictly searching for planets with protoculture ruins, just human sustaining planets. The Vajra homeworld doesn't likely have any protoculture ruins since Grace stated they existed even at the same time as the Protoculture (and that the PC feared and worshiped them to the extent of imitating their form, ala AFOS in Macross Zero). If that's the case, why don't the Zentradi at least know something about the Vajra, since the Protoculture created them, and they're supposedly spread all over the galaxy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Practically a whole 2 pages of license debate talk.... Either make it a short answer or direct them to the License debate thread. Thank you. Come again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 The goal is to get humanity spread on as many planets as possible, so that something like Space War 1 can't wipe everything out. You'll understand why when you get there. Misa explains it towards the end of the original series(I think it's in the final episode, actually). That always struck me as the goal of the colonisation project. It must be a strange version of humanity though because I don't think that there is any way that normal human birthrates can account for the recovery of the human population on earth, and then having the manpower to construct and populate such massive fleets. Even with large Zentradi population and interbreeding between the species there must still be a good deal of actual human cloning taking place to generate the number of people required to make the expansion work. Has this topic ever been covered in the Macross canon. And its also ironic that even with the colonisation AND expansion it also became clear in the last Frontier episode that the Vajra still had the potential to wipe out or enslave both the human and Zentradi races. (I thought that part was really cool) Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 That always struck me as the goal of the colonisation project. It must be a strange version of humanity though because I don't think that there is any way that normal human birthrates can account for the recovery of the human population on earth, and then having the manpower to construct and populate such massive fleets. Even with large Zentradi population and interbreeding between the species there must still be a good deal of actual human cloning taking place to generate the number of people required to make the expansion work. Has this topic ever been covered in the Macross canon. Not that I know of. I think the official stance is "It happened." You could skew things by making laws to encourage breeding. But that's still a LOT of kids to be raising. And clone or natural-born, they aren't going to have what we would consider a normal childhood, for obvious reasons. ... That may explain why Milia's trying to marry Mylene off in Macross 7. She's old enough to have kids, it's time she starts doing her part! Not that I really think that much thought was put into the situation, buuuut... And its also ironic that even with the colonisation AND expansion it also became clear in the last Frontier episode that the Vajra still had the potential to wipe out or enslave both the human and Zentradi races. (I thought that part was really cool) Yup. But unless a deranged cyborg with a god complex takes over the Vajra hivemind, everyone's fairly safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (...) Has this topic ever been covered in the Macross canon. (...) Not much. See my translation of Macross Chronicle's Super Long Range Emigration Fleet sheet for more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 If that's the case, why don't the Zentradi at least know something about the Vajra, since the Protoculture created them, and they're supposedly spread all over the galaxy? Zentradi lost a lot of knowledge through the centuries. Heck they didn't know males and females can co-habitate and you know... do stuff. Warera, Rori and Konda don't have a clue what a Protoculture was till Bodolzaa told them. Also in Macross 7 the only Zentradi that had a clue on who the Protodevlin were is Exsedol. I doubt Zentradi were also indoctrinated with their creator's religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I doubt Zentradi were also indoctrinated with their creator's religion. Creator's religion?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Creator's religion?? Most likely a reference to what I was saying earlier that the Protoculture, in Grace's words, "feared, worshipped, and defied the Vajra to the point of imitating their form." At which point we saw an image of the AFOS/Birdman from Macross Zero, finally explaining the similarity between that and the Vajra. The Vajra came first, AFOS was just based on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 And its also ironic that even with the colonisation AND expansion it also became clear in the last Frontier episode that the Vajra still had the potential to wipe out or enslave both the human and Zentradi races. (I thought that part was really cool) Yup. But unless a deranged cyborg with a god complex takes over the Vajra hivemind, everyone's fairly safe. This is actually an interesting issue... Leon and all of the experts say that the Vajra communicate via their intestines, and that what each individual feels/experiences is communicated to the hive and inputted back to all of the other units. But Ai-Kun clearly shows otherwise. He was Ranka's friend ever since he got into Sheryl's panties. When he finally matured, he didn't hesitate to remain loyal to Ranka and showed affection for her. His actions went beyond the simple Vajra instinct that commanded them to take Ranka "home." - I think. Also - he clearly did not mindlessly kill people close to Ranka - Ai-Kun could easily have taken out Alto - especially when Ranka blocked his shot - but he didn't - because he probably "knew" that Ranka wouldn't want Alto hurt. In any case - I get the feeling that the Vajra are not all that completely "mindless" drones - and to the extent that they "are" - then I prefer to think of them as being pre-programmed biological computers which - you guessed it - DEVELOP ARTIFICIAL INTELIGENCE after a certain amount of expriences. This is not far fetched. If human built computers can develop AI at some point - then why can't bio-weapons like the Vajra also develop the ability to think independently, or at least semi-independently? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Most likely a reference to what I was saying earlier that the Protoculture, in Grace's words, "feared, worshipped, and defied the Vajra to the point of imitating their form." At which point we saw an image of the AFOS/Birdman from Macross Zero, finally explaining the similarity between that and the Vajra. The Vajra came first, AFOS was just based on them. IIRC there was some question as to how that statement was translated. Reveared has a different connotation in English as compared to worship, and I believe that was the sticking point. We'd have to look through the hundreds of posts to find the post regarding that translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Robot Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 IIRC there was some question as to how that statement was translated. Reveared has a different connotation in English as compared to worship, and I believe that was the sticking point. We'd have to look through the hundreds of posts to find the post regarding that translation. I also think a lot of people are putting a lot of literal weight and absolute truth into the final rant of an insane and obsessive villain. It's certainly reasonable to assume that the Protoculture might have learned of the secrets of fold-based technology by observing/imitating the Vajra's fold travel and communication abilities It's also obvious that the AFOS was Vajra-inspired in appearance, though other Protoculture technology and relics we've seen don't seem to be. For all we know, Grace was reading a lot into things to fit her own goals and world view. It's like some future archaeologist taking an "sharkskin" bathing suit and an old P-40 and talking about how 20th-21st century Earth culture "feared and revered sharks to the point of imitating their form." Which would have a seed of truth, but still be a long way off from implying that sharks were somehow central or worshipped in modern culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I also think a lot of people are putting a lot of literal weight and absolute truth into the final rant of an insane and obsessive villain. It's certainly reasonable to assume that the Protoculture might have learned of the secrets of fold-based technology by observing/imitating the Vajra's fold travel and communication abilities It's also obvious that the AFOS was Vajra-inspired in appearance, though other Protoculture technology and relics we've seen don't seem to be. For all we know, Grace was reading a lot into things to fit her own goals and world view. It's like some future archaeologist taking an "sharkskin" bathing suit and an old P-40 and talking about how 20th-21st century Earth culture "feared and revered sharks to the point of imitating their form." Which would have a seed of truth, but still be a long way off from implying that sharks were somehow central or worshipped in modern culture. I wasn't meaning to insinuate that everything the PC did was derived from the Vajra or anything, I was just pointing out that it shows officially the connection between the AFOS and the Vajra since they have similar symbols. The Protoculture modeled the AFOS on the Vajra, that is all I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Rather than calling this thread "Newbie" questions I think it should be called "General" questions, since a lot of the stuff here gets pretty advanced. OK, finished being a picky nerd for now. Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Rather than calling this thread "Newbie" questions I think it should be called "General" questions, since a lot of the stuff here gets pretty advanced. OK, finished being a picky nerd for now. Taksraven Yeah well this is a go to thread if you're lazy to make a thread asking a question. For the question itself. Where have you guys heard about Macross 3? According Sketchley's work on the long range fleets Therese Jenius lives there and is married. Just want some confirmation from a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Found the source for you: http://www.hawkmoon.net/fanfic/notes.html The only reason I went searching for it is because of this entry: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/New_Macross_...#Ships_in_class Where the info comes from... no idea. Perhaps one of the games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Ok possible sources of it I can think of. A Macross drama CD. (Gubaba may shed some light in this if I'm on the right track.) Since I've heard Macross Generation definitely not that as it deals with Macross 9. Macross English Anticipation Manga is another possible source. Never seen or read that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Ok possible sources of it I can think of. A Macross drama CD. (Gubaba may shed some light in this if I'm on the right track.) Since I've heard Macross Generation definitely not that as it deals with Macross 9. Macross English Anticipation Manga is another possible source. Never seen or read that one. None of the drama albums are possible contenders (unless I'm REALLY missing something), and I don't *think* the information is in the "Macross Glossary" that comes with "Macross 7 Docking Festival." And although I haven't seen Macross English Anticpation Manga, I kind of doubt that as well, since it's supposedly about Fire Bomber's reaction to Fire Bomber American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Rather than calling this thread "Newbie" questions I think it should be called "General" questions, since a lot of the stuff here gets pretty advanced. OK, finished being a picky nerd for now. Taksraven Nothing in "newbie questions" suggests that the questions or answers can't be advanced Besides, we need a thread that screams out to newbies "come to me!" otherwise they would invade all the other threads to ask when Rick Hunter is going to come back Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Nothing in "newbie questions" suggests that the questions or answers can't be advanced Besides, we need a thread that screams out to newbies "come to me!" otherwise they would invade all the other threads to ask when Rick Hunter is going to come back Yeah. There's several newbie questions that have very complex and/or vague answers. "What happened to Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay" being perhaps the definitive example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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