HG and Robotech Debates

[Keith]

Here's my quick & dirty go.

[VFTF1]

My one suggestion would be to call it "Darick Hunter" instead

Pete

[Keith]

My one suggestion would be to call it "Darick Hunter" instead

Pete

Thought of that, but I like that someone around here runs around calling him "Lick Hunter" so I went with that.

[taksraven]

Here's my quick & dirty go.

LOL. Verrry cool.

Thanks for that.

Taksraven

[MEMO1DOMINION]

TATSUNOKO AUTHOR RIGHTS

Japanese copyright law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_copyright_law

Japanese copyright laws consist of two parts: "Author's Rights", and "Neighboring Rights", and as such, "copyright" is a convenient collective term rather than a single concept in Japan.

(COPYRIGHT CONSIST OF TWO PARTS)

CONTINUED.....

1.Applicability

Japanese copyright law protects all works "in which thoughts or sentiments are expressed in a creative way, and which falls within the literary, scientific, artistic or musical domain". The laws automatically provide the following rights, without the need for formal declaration or registration.

2.Moral rights

A)Divulgence: The author can choose when and how a work will be made available to the public.

B)Authorship: The author can choose how his authorship is represented in the work (e.g., under pseudonym or anonymity).

C)Integrity: The author can control the modification of a work.

"Moral rights" are non-transferable. They remain with the author until they expire (see below). Although moral rights themselves cannot be waived, the exercise of moral rights is often waived by contract in certain situations, such as when an employee or contractor creates a derivative work of her/his employer's or principal's product. In such a situation, the moral rights would technically remain with the creator, but the creator would be potentially liable for breach of contract if he attempts to exercise those rights.

3.Economic rights

A)Reproduction: The author can control the reproduction of a work, including photography, recording, downloading, and the like.

B)Communication: The author can control how a work is to be transmitted, communicated, broadcast, performed, exhibited, etc., including how copies of the work are to be distributed.

C)Adaptation: The author can control the adaptation of a work through translation, dramatization, cinematization , and the creation of derivative works in general.

Unlike moral rights, economic rights can be freely transferred or relinquished. If the author transfers his economic rights to another, the holder of the economic rights becomes the "copyright holder", but the author retains authorship.

[Gubaba]

Memo, I'm not sure what your game is.

The facts are not on your side. That's the most important point.

The second important point is that, even on RT.com or RTX, your theories are only convincing to either the already-convinced or the desperately-want-to-be-convinced. Even there, where people really WANT to see a Robotech movie that is based on Macross, many people are not convinced. If you can't convince them there, you won't be able to convince them here. You won't even get any support from that Pizza the Hutt kid, since he's unwilling to post here (and the mods breathe a great sigh of relief, and pray that it stays that way).

By continuing this, you're not really doing much besides damaging your own credibility further and making yourself look even worse.

Now, perhaps WB and BW will indeed work out some kind of deal; it's always possible.

But until something changes, all the evidence points to HG not being able to use the Macross designs. And you've failed to bring any legitimate proof that they can.

You must know all this. You must know that you have no real facts to back you up, and you must know that no one here will be swayed by your suppositions.

So what's the point? What are you trying to accomplish?

[Einherjar]

But until something changes, all the evidence points to HG not being able to use the Macross designs. And you've failed to bring any legitimate proof that they can.

You must know all this. You must know that you have no real facts to back you up, and you must know that no one here will be swayed by your suppositions.

So what's the point? What are you trying to accomplish?

Isn't it obvious? He's a sell out.

[taksraven]

MEMO's post was different to his normal type. I think he's losing it.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

TATSUNOKO AUTHOR RIGHTS

Japanese copyright law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_copyright_law

Oh good grief... MEMO comes among us again, having added a poorly-written Wikipedia article to his complete and total ignorance of the law, the rights involved, and the court rulings, thinking that it proves something other than that he's a self-deluding twit who doesn't know what he's talking about.

For your edification, MEMO, the 2002 court ruling affirmed that because Tatsunoko was not involved in the project when the copyrighted intellectual property (character and mceha designs) were created, those copyrighted designs are owned by Big West, and that Big West is the sole party able to utilize those those designs. To put it bluntly, MEMO, Big West is the sole holder of ALL the rights to those designs under copyright law... including both the author's rights and economic rights. The 2003 court ruling found that Tatsunoko had the production copyright on the footage itself... the economic rights associated with being the "maker", but not the moral rights associated with being the "author". This does not trump, contradict, or in any way alter the scope of Big West's copyrights on those mecha designs. It does not give Tatsunoko ownership of those designs, or the right to use that copyrighted intellectual property in any way. The only rights Tatsunoko has to those designs are those specifically granted to them by Big West under contract... namely, the international merchandising rights (excluding Japan).

Tatsunoko never owned the intellectual property rights to those designs, and thus CANNOT give those rights to Harmony Gold, and certainly cannot authorize the use of that copyrighted intellectual property for the live-action movie.

Now MEMO, if you don't understand what you're talking about, and believe me EVERYONE can see that you don't, please keep your yap shut. It's a mystery to me what you think you're going to accomplish by continuing this crusade of ignorance and denial... the only people who will be convinced by your factless argument are those who just don't want to accept the truth that Harmony Gold cannot and will not use Macross designs in anything other than merchandise. I would agree with Gubaba that you're just destroying your own credibility, but after your recent antics, I don't think you really have any left to damage.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

Memo, I'm not sure what your game is.

ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO GAME.

The facts are not on your side. That's the most important point.

WHO OWNS THE AUTHOR RIGHTS?

AND HOW DOES JAPANESE LAW APPLIES.

I AM NOT HERE TO CONVINCE ANYONE. SIMPLE DEBATE. ADDING MORE TO A DEBATE.

BUT ITS THE SIMPLE DEBATE OF THIS THREAD FROM YEARS PASSES THAT CREATES INFORMATION. TRUE OR NOT, ONE CAN JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES. SOME HAVE MADE UP THEIR MINDS ABOUT ME..FINE. BUT ITS THE DISCUSSION THAT GENERATES INFORMATION. AND THAT'S WHAT IS ALL ABOUT. NO GAME. REALLY.

SINCE WHEN I NEED PIZZA? OR ANYONE ELSE.. I ALWAYS POSTED ON MY OWN. AND NEVER EVEN MENTIONED PIZZA.

FOR SERIOUS DEBATERS.. THERES IS THE INFO.. FOR DRAMA.. SORRY, CANT HELP THERE.

[taksraven]

ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO GAME.

WHO OWNS THE AUTHOR RIGHTS?

AND HOW DOES JAPANESE LAW APPLIES.

I AM NOT HERE TO CONVINCE ANYONE. SIMPLE DEBATE. ADDING MORE TO A DEBATE.

BUT ITS THE SIMPLE DEBATE OF THIS THREAD FROM YEARS PASSES THAT CREATES INFORMATION. TRUE OR NOT, ONE CAN JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES. SOME HAVE MADE UP THEIR MINDS ABOUT ME..FINE. BUT ITS THE DISCUSSION THAT GENERATES INFORMATION. AND THAT'S WHAT IS ALL ABOUT. NO GAME. REALLY.

SINCE WHEN I NEED PIZZA? OR ANYONE ELSE.. I ALWAYS POSTED ON MY OWN. AND NEVER EVEN MENTIONED PIZZA.

FOR SERIOUS DEBATERS.. THERES IS THE INFO.. FOR DRAMA.. SORRY, CANT HELP THERE.

There we go. Back to the way it should be.....(by popular demand??)

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

I AM NOT HERE TO CONVINCE ANYONE. SIMPLE DEBATE. ADDING MORE TO A DEBATE.

Adding more to a debate? I don't know, it sounds more like trolling.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

SETO

having added a poorly-written Wikipedia article

HERE IS THIS.

http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/csj/csj4.html

[Gubaba]

FOR SERIOUS DEBATERS.. THERES IS THE INFO.. FOR DRAMA.. SORRY, CANT HELP THERE.

The debate is over, and has been for a long time.

All that's left is the drama.

[Wanzerfan]

I'm suprised you can type with your head so far up your ass, MEMO1DOMINION.

We here all live in the real world here, not in a place where Elves pilot Excalibur Mk. VIs and Orks pilot Veritechs (rigged, no less), all the while trying to avoid Renraku Red Samurais.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Moly_Sigang]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i gather, Studio Nue already created the characters, mecha and ship designs even before Tatsunoko came in. Hence, BW/SN own those copyrighted designs as proven by the court rulings.

[Seto Kaiba]

HERE IS THIS.

http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/csj/csj4.html

Yeah, I've had that site bookmarked for something like six months now.

It still doesn't support your argument, because your argument is based around a complete misunderstanding of the hard facts of the court findings and other materials.

Adding more to a debate? I don't know, it sounds more like trolling.

It's no stretch to classify his "contributions" as trolling, that's for sure. This latest batch of posts looks to be nothing more than him picking links posted by other, far more knowledgeable contributors and reposting them to make himself look like he isn't completely talking out of his arse.

The debate is over, and has been for a long time.

All that's left is the drama.

Yes, it is. Unfortunately, there are some who just aren't prepared to accept the truth, and so they put enormous effort into trying to deny that truth.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i gather, Studio Nue already created the characters, mecha and ship designs even before Tatsunoko came in. Hence, BW/SN own those copyrighted designs as proven by the court rulings.

Not just that, but the story, the core concepts of the series, and most of the rest of the stuff too... which is why the courts confirmed that Tatsunoko had no claim on that intellectual property.

[Gubaba]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i gather, Studio Nue already created the characters, mecha and ship designs even before Tatsunoko came in. Hence, BW/SN own those copyrighted designs as proven by the court rulings.

Yes, that's true. Tatsunoko did some of the actual animating, Studio Nue and Artland did all the planning, designing, writing, directing, and a lot of the animation.

So, by Memo's logic, DR Movies has authorship rights to Shadow Chronicles, and can make their own Shadow Rising, with or without Harmony Gold.

My main simple question here is: If (as Memo says) Tatsunoko can make their own Macross movies, TV series, and OVAs...and Big West only has "moral rights"...then why has every Macross sequel been produced by Big West, while Tatsunoko has done nothing?

[Wanzerfan]

Yes, that's true. Tatsunoko did some of the actual animating, Studio Nue and Artland did all the planning, designing, writing, directing, and a lot of the animation.

So, by Memo's logic, DR Movies has authorship rights to Shadow Chronicles, and can make their own Shadow Rising, with or without Harmony Gold.

My main simple question here is: If (as Memo says) Tatsunoko can make their own Macross movies, TV series, and OVAs...and Big West only has "moral rights"...then why has every Macross sequel been produced by Big West, while Tatsunoko has done nothing?

Because if Tatsunoko ever did anything else Macross related without permission, they would be facing a big, fat, juicy lawsuit and a nice bite in the ass by American Pit Bull Terrier Big West.

[Gubaba]

Because if Tatsunoko ever did anything else Macross related without permission, they would be facing a big, fat, juicy lawsuit and a nice bite in the ass by American Pit Bull Terrier Big West.

Erm, yes. You know that, and I know that...but it's the number one fact that those who say that Tats owns everything have to account for.

I mean, if (as Memo says), Tatsunoko has the authority to authorize Macross sequels, why haven't they done so? As why has Big West not had to go through them?

(I'm also not sure why you're calling Big West an "American Pit Bull terrier," since they're not American and they don't seem particularly vicious...but that's neither here nor there, really. )

[HappyPenguins]

The debate is over, and has been for a long time.

All that's left is the drama.

This is true >_>

let the dead horse lie in peace now.......

or pieces

Edited September 7, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[taksraven]

This is true >_>

let the dead horse lie in peace now.......

or pieces

In other words....

Taksraven

[Wanzerfan]

(I'm also not sure why you're calling Big West an "American Pit Bull terrier," since they're not American and they don't seem particularly vicious...but that's neither here nor there, really. )

Because when an American Pit Bull Terrier (that's the full name of the breed) bites down, they never let go (ask FASA).

[RedWolf]

Memo read it and weep.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/...ents/index.html

To Whom It May Concern

Big West Co., Ltd.

We brought a lawsuit against Tatsunoko Production to confirm our copyright ownership of TV anime "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross" which has been broadcast in Japan since 1982.

Consequently, on February 25, 2002, the Tokyo District Court accepted our assertion and ruled that we are copyright owner of all character patterns attached hereto as lists No.1 to No. 41.

It is an inevitable ruling by the court that made a thorough examination on production process of "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross."

We will take advantage of the copyright to develop more "Macross" products.

Kaya Ohnishi

President

Big West Co., Ltd.

Enclosure

That is an official statement. I don't see Harmony Gold making official statements like that. Why? They'll be sued if they do and lose.

Why do you suppose they didn't use any Macross mecha or character designs in Shadow Chronicles? Again they'll get sued and lose.

Go ahead ask Harmony Gold if they own Macross. They won't give you a straight answer.

[anime52k8]

Edited September 7, 2009 by anime52k8

[Gubaba]

Because when an American Pit Bull Terrier (that's the full name of the breed) bites down, they never let go (ask FASA).

What does FASA have to do with Big West...?

[eugimon]

What does FASA have to do with Big West...?

for that matter...

Mickey: Good dags. D'ya like dags?

Tommy: Dags?

Mickey: What?

Mrs. O'Neil: Yeah, dags.

Tommy: Oh, dogs. Sure, I like dags. I like caravans MACROSS more.

[VFTF1]

At the risk of getting ass-whipped - I'm going to stand up for Memo on ONE small point:

namely his right to post whatever arguments he feels are appropriate, as long as he is not explicitly swearing, libeling, lying, insulting other people - which I do not see him doing.

Yes, his caps locking is a bit irritating, and yes his arguments don't take into account all the facts.

But in my opinion, expressing even factual wrong opinions is not trolling, nor is it trolling to link to what someone feels to be supportive.

I guess what I'm saying is - personally I would hope that we could lay off calling him a troll and making it personal.

You don't need to. The information available speaks for itself. The entire thread speaks for itself.

Let Memo post his opinions. Go ahead and tear them down for the one millionth time. He has a right to be wrong and to persist in being wrong if he wants to. And as long as he isn't breaking the rules of Macross World, as long as he's not insulting other members, calling them names and calling them out - then he's not trolling.

Now - you might say that by posting what the majority of us consider to be completely false information and bad lines of argument, he is trolling because his posts rouse people into outrage, pulling their hair out, thinking "oh man, this again!?" etc etc.

But I think we need to accept in good faith that in life there will always be people who just totally 100% see things differently then we do, and not get so emotional over it.

I say this as someone who - as you will note from all the posts I have put into this thread - is vehemently ..displeased (to put it mildly) with HG's behavior and flaberghasted that Robotech has any supporters left...

BUT

I would hope we could be polite to Memo anyways and respect his right to say and write things that go against what we think.

Pete

[Ghost Train]

I have just returned from the year 2013 in my magic time masheeeeeen. After we all had fun and a few drinks to commemorate the 2012 Mayan Zombie Atomic Apocalypse incident it was time for Macross' 30th anniversary.

In the far future the legal status of Macross Distribution rights in NA has reached the US Supreme Court! In an epic majority opinion, Chief Justice Sonia Sotomayor delivered a truly magnificent 1 sentence opinion:

"lol transforming planes."

Edited September 7, 2009 by Ghost Train

[VFTF1]

In an epic majority opinion, Chief Justice Sonia Sotomayor delivered a truly magnificent 1 sentence opinion:

"lol transforming planes."

That's pretty much the level of intellectual reasoning we can expect from her.

Oops.

I think I just crossed a line... (runs back to the other side of the line!)

Pete

[eugimon]

hey, maybe we can combine the discussion on pitbulls with the discussion on politics and tell a palin joke.

[anime52k8]

this is the worst f*cking thread ever....

[MEMO1DOMINION]

THANK YOU PETE.

FROM ANN

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2003-...ight-to-macross

In a serious legal blow to Studio Nue, widely perceived as the original creators and rightful owners of Macross, the Tokyo district court today ruled that the rights associated with authorship, the "author's right," for the first Macross series, belong to Tatsunoko Productions, not Studio Nue.

THIS IS WHAT I STAND ON. UNLESS ANYONE CAN POINT OTHERWISE TO A LINK WHERE I CAN SEE THAT BW HAS AUTHOR RIGHTS.

MORAL IS COVERED BY AUTHOR RIGHTS. THAT WHAT AUTHOR IS.

NOW, THAT BEING SAID, THERE IS ONE MORE QUESTION.

IF, THE COURT DOCUMENTS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, WOULD NOT THE CONTRACT BETWEEN TATSU, BW, AND SN BE IN THERE? THAT DEAL WITH INTERNATIONAL RIGHTS?

AND THATS THE MISSING PUZZLE THAT I DON'T HAVE.

[Einherjar]

AND THATS THE MISSING PUZZLE THAT I DON'T HAVE.

For what exactly? What are you planning to do if you had it? Fandom politics?

Edited September 7, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

THANK YOU PETE.

Your welcome.

It would be nice if Robotech.com could apply the exact same standards of fairness I was talking about in defense of your right to post your opinions at MW.com over there to other people, instead of hiding behind Harmony Gold's "terms of use" policy.

Pete