New Macross TV Series in 20xx (sometime this decade)

[SMS007]

On 11/1/2017 at 8:27 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The ancient Protoculture have done worse things with DNA than genetic memory... by all indications, the Star Singer is essentially a bio-android.

When you say "bio-android", do you mean an organic individual who has limited mental independence and essentially performs an automated function? I'm not aware of this term as standard sci-fi lexicon. Is it a Dragon Ball reference?

[Seto Kaiba]

22 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

When you say "bio-android", do you mean an organic individual who has limited mental independence and essentially performs an automated function? I'm not aware of this term as standard sci-fi lexicon.

Sorta?  In fiction, the definition of the term "android" is not as formalized as the definition for "robot".  Most authors fall back on one of two key points to differentiate them:

1. An android is a robotic construct with a self-aware, autonomous artificial intelligence capable of independent thought and action, while a conventional robot uses a "dumb" AI that simply follows preprogrammed instructions.
2. An android is a robot made in the human image, either undetectably human-looking or very close to it, while a robot is visibly artificial and/or looks nothing like a human or humanoid.

Star Trek: the Next Generation did a lot to popularize the notion of androids as fitting both of those categories.

One way in which the definition of "android" is used more flexibly is that is that some authors have extended the definition to mean wholly-artificial self-aware automata that are based on, or composed entirely of, biotechnological or biological parts.  Sort of like a cyborg, except it was built from scratch as a mixture of organics and technology instead of being an organic being altered through the replacement of parts with machinery.  These are sometimes called bio-androids.  A bio-android might have a bio-technological computer for a brain, a composite material skeleton, all wrapped in vat-grown flesh and blood, or it might have a machine brain and nervous system puppeteering an organic technology body of organs, blood, and bone, or it may be composed entirely of organic technology programmed at the genetic level to fulfill a certain task.

Some good examples of bio-androids in anime would include:

• Mikumo Guynemer, obviously, who is a cloned human with legacy genetic codes left behind by the Protoculture that contain an autonomous program that enabled (forced) her to operate the Star Shrine.  (The wholly-biological type programmed at a genetic level.)
• The version of Commander Boddole Zer in Macross: Do You Remember Love? arguably qualifies, as he was a sentient and wholly organic/bio-technological living computer in approximately humanoid form.
• Melfina VSD02C from Outlaw Star.  A bio-android with an artificial bio-technological brain and artificial skeleton wrapped in vat-cultured flesh and blood with some artificial and some cloned natural organs.  Meifon Li, the protagonist of the Outlaw Star spinoff Angel Links is the fully bio-technological type, a wholly artificial lifeform made of biological technology from a wrecked alien ship of unknown origin, who was programmed to live and grow normally as if she were the child the android was to replace until she found the target that she was supposed to assassinate.
• The Innovades (fake Innovators) in Gundam 00, and arguably Team Trinity, who were biological and bio-technological, living, independently sentient terminals for the quantum supercomputer Veda with technological augmentations enabling them to function more effectively in space for long periods.
• The Angeroids in Heaven's Lost Property are principally biological, artificial constructs that are fully sentient.
• War Prince Nataku in Gensoumaden Saiyuki may also qualify, as he was an artificially-created combat organism that his "father" Li Touten created by using technology to modify reengineer his own genes to grow the perfect warrior-son in a cloning tank.
• They're all over Tenchi Muyo!, with Ryoko Hakubi being the most obvious one: a genetically engineered, artificially cultivated "child" made by fusing Washu's own genes with an inorganic lifeform called a Mass, with a mind that is at least partly a pre-programmed computer.  Ryo-Ohki and Fuku may count if you waive the part about looking human (which they rarely do), as they're organic technology sentient constructs.  Doll and the other artificial humans from Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari also count, for much the same reason as Ryoko.
• Mackie Stingray (but only the version in Bubblegum Crisis: Tokyo 2040) is one as well, being a bio-technological Boomer in human form with a brain based on Sylia's own.
• The Ilia probe from Star Trek: the Motion Picture also fits the definition, as an organic technology probe created from the pattern (but not the actual body) of the recently deceased Lt. Ilia.

 

22 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Is it a Dragon Ball reference?

Dragon Ball and Dragonball Z's use of the term "android" is one of the most famous questionable translation choices in the history of the American anime industry.  The actual term used is 人造人間 (lit. "Artificial Human"), and among their numbers were a mix of true androids (e.g. No.16 and No.19), and cyborgs (e.g. No.8, No.17, No.18, No.20 AKA Dr. Gero).  This questionable choice by the translators is so famous that even Dragonball Z Abridged felt the need to throw a few jokes in about it.

[Graham]

2018 is nearly upon us and there's been sod all in the way of news or updates about this new series.

 

 

[Focslain]

7 hours ago, Graham said:

2018 is nearly upon us and there's been sod all in the way of news or updates about this new series.

 

 

Everything is focused on the new movie. The earliest we'll get an update won't be until the movie releases in Feb. If smart they'll have a teaser ready within a month of the movie release.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Graham said:

2018 is nearly upon us and there's been sod all in the way of news or updates about this new series.

Considering how minimal the effort they seem to be putting into the Macross Delta movie is, they're probably waiting until after the movie has been out for a few weeks to start blitzing us with information.

[RealJayDee]

Hey guys!

With this new movie do you think we'll ever see a bandai vf 22?? Similar to what happened with the vf 19 in wings of goodbye.

I hope they release it since I would like to own a vf 22.

Edited December 14, 2017 by RealJayDee
Accidentally clicked submit the first time

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, RealJayDee said:

Hey guys!

With this new movie do you think we'll ever see a bandai vf 22?? Similar to what happened with the vf 19 in wings of goodbye.

I hope they release it since I would like to own a vf 22.

It's not impossible.. and since Bandai is now expanding their product line to include an M+ era YF-19 figure (hopefully not just a retool of the VF-19 Advance since there are differences) and a larger VF-1J figure (purportedly 1/48 scale like the old Yamato figures, but actual scale is not yet confirmed), there is now precedent for them to make a VF-22 since it does cameo in Delta, or even just to make an M+ YF-21 since they are already doing a YF-19. However that is just speculative thinking.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Master Dex

[Mommar]

It's a reused VF-19 mold.

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, Mommar said:

It's a reused VF-19 mold.

Such laziness. Sad part is people will still buy it even if they have the VF-19 Advance.

[kajnrig]

4 hours ago, Mommar said:

It's a reused VF-19 mold.

To be clear, the display prototype is a reused VF-19 Advance mold. The first display prototype of the VF-31A Kairos was also a reused VF-31J mold, and recent pictures/prototypes have seen the relevant changes made (nose cone sensor array, two-part fold carbon chest kibble, etc.).

Anyway, I'm all in for a YF-21/VF-22 as well. Max and Miria colors next, please.

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

Hey guys!

With this new movie do you think we'll ever see a bandai vf 22?? Similar to what happened with the vf 19 in wings of goodbye.

I hope they release it since I would like to own a vf 22.

Seems unlikely, IMO... they're pressed for time in the movie, and with the show already a horribly unbalanced one, it's more likely the VF-31 will be the technical cameo.

Seriously though, Wright's VF-22 had such a minor role in the actual series that it's likely to end up omitted entirely in the movie version.

[Mommar]

20 hours ago, kajnrig said:

To be clear, the display prototype is a reused VF-19 Advance mold. The first display prototype of the VF-31A Kairos was also a reused VF-31J mold, and recent pictures/prototypes have seen the relevant changes made (nose cone sensor array, two-part fold carbon chest kibble, etc.).

Anyway, I'm all in for a YF-21/VF-22 as well. Max and Miria colors next, please.

So it'll have a split canopy.  That won't be the extensive change people are hoping for.

[kajnrig]

14 hours ago, Mommar said:

So it'll have a split canopy.  That won't be the extensive change people are hoping for.

It might not even have that... Though another picture (of the same prototype? of a newer one? I forget) revealed that the cockpit has changed from a single-seater to a two-seater. Maybe they made other changes to the mold as well. I dunno. Either way, we're getting way off topic now. You know, that meaty meaty Delta discussion.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm really hoping for something as well balanced and well done as Frontier this time around. There was something simple and elegant about the mecha in Frontier,  as well as good characters, with tons of development, and characters we really cared about. I just hope that the era of PMC's is over in this new series. SMS was fine, but Xaos was morally bankrupt and incompetent. I mean, I get that Japan has a strong anti-militarism bent, but I don't understand how a PMC (mercenaries for all intents and purposes) is supposed to be better than a military. Mercenaries fight for money, whereas a military is supposed to uphold the principles of the people it serves. Anyway enough of that...

As for a VF-22 toy from bandai, I'd absolutely love that. It would be a good investment for them too, especially since the only things that change between the YF-21 and VF-22 are the canopy and head sculpt. 

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I just hope that the era of PMC's is over in this new series. SMS was fine, but Xaos was morally bankrupt and incompetent. I mean, I get that Japan has a strong anti-militarism bent, but I don't understand how a PMC (mercenaries for all intents and purposes) is supposed to be better than a military. Mercenaries fight for money, whereas a military is supposed to uphold the principles of the people it serves.

It must be admitted that, had they not been the Designated Heroes and thus equipped better than the actual military, Xaos would have represented a significant step towards realism in terms of how the Macross franchise (and anime in general) depicts PMCs.

Too often, fictional PMCs are depicted as being The Elite, with the very best troops, the very latest hardware, a bottomless bank account to pay for it all, and a permanent encampment on the moral high ground.  A lot of authors toy with ways to justify it, but they're all usually dancing around the fundamental reality of the polar opposite: PMCs typically being staffed by the very worst who were gently shown the door by the Army over discipline problems, equipped with secondhand hardware, running on a razor-thin margin, and administrated with a level of cretinous ineptitude not normally found outside of Captain Planet villains.  Usually authors try to justify it by sacrificing one of those traits on the altar of character flaws, with varying results.  Like Full Metal Panic!'s MITHRIL having ultimately proven to be a NATO-funded black ops unit pretending to be a PMC for the sake of their own plausible deniability.  Macross Frontier fans kind of missed the fact that despite SMS being the designated heros, their company is every bit as shifty and corrupt as Macross Galaxy was, having manipulated the entire fleet government into a conflict with the Vajra in the name of securing fold quartz to gain a monopoly on interstellar shipping, and even collaborated with a coup d'etat.

Xaos was the closest we've yet seen to a realistically incompetent PMC... a pack of swaggering idiots who are nowhere near as hard as they think they are, being a pack of washouts from what amounts to the national guard of a rural state, utterly convinced they're the heroes in their own action movie while getting their butts handed to them by even the most inexperienced professional soldiers.

 

It'd be nice to leave this nonsense behind.  If we need elite-ness in our soldier-characters, let's just use the special forces.  They at least have legitimate reason to be elite and better equipped, and a format already exists in Macross for them to be semi-autonomous.

[no3Ljm]

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

As for a VF-22 toy from bandai, I'd absolutely love that. It would be a good investment for them too, especially since the only things that change between the YF-21 and VF-22 are the canopy and head sculpt. 

Aside those is the underbelly leg covers which in turn into the side skirt armor. The YF-21 have a slot and groove for its gunpod where VF-22 haven't.  

[Valkyrie Driver]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It must be admitted that, had they not been the Designated Heroes and thus equipped better than the actual military, Xaos would have represented a significant step towards realism in terms of how the Macross franchise (and anime in general) depicts PMCs.

It would be even more impressive if the writers of Delta had intended it to be that way. 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Too often, fictional PMCs are depicted as being The Elite, with the very best troops, the very latest hardware, a bottomless bank account to pay for it all, and a permanent encampment on the moral high ground.  A lot of authors toy with ways to justify it, but they're all usually dancing around the fundamental reality of the polar opposite: PMCs typically being staffed by the very worst who were gently shown the door by the Army over discipline problems, equipped with secondhand hardware, running on a razor-thin margin, and administrated with a level of cretinous ineptitude not normally found outside of Captain Planet villains.  Usually authors try to justify it by sacrificing one of those traits on the altar of character flaws, with varying results.  Like Full Metal Panic!'s MITHRIL having ultimately proven to be a NATO-funded black ops unit pretending to be a PMC for the sake of their own plausible deniability.  Macross Frontier fans kind of missed the fact that despite SMS being the designated heros, their company is every bit as shifty and corrupt as Macross Galaxy was, having manipulated the entire fleet government into a conflict with the Vajra in the name of securing fold quartz to gain a monopoly on interstellar shipping, and even collaborated with a coup d'etat.

To be fair, the Word Contractor gets thrown around a lot, both in terms of PMC's and in terms of Federal Agencies. Most real PMC's are little better trained and equipped than most third world countries. Most of the Elite operators employed by PMC's (if there are any) are on the training staff and will never go in country on missions. As for SMS, well, the reality was not lost on me, but the main group of heroes did kinda go rogue, steal company property and embark on a mission to discover the truth. So while SMS was corrupt, the heroes were not. We have to remember that membership in a group does not imply complicity. 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Xaos was the closest we've yet seen to a realistically incompetent PMC... a pack of swaggering idiots who are nowhere near as hard as they think they are, being a pack of washouts from what amounts to the national guard of a rural state, utterly convinced they're the heroes in their own action movie while getting their butts handed to them by even the most inexperienced professional soldiers.

That sounds about right.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It'd be nice to leave this nonsense behind.  If we need elite-ness in our soldier-characters, let's just use the special forces.  They at least have legitimate reason to be elite and better equipped, and a format already exists in Macross for them to be semi-autonomous.

Agreed. 

4 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Aside those is the underbelly leg covers which in turn into the side skirt armor. The YF-21 have a slot and groove for its gunpod where VF-22 haven't.  

Is that just a toy thing, or is that actually a stated design difference? I thought both designs made use of a bay for their gunpods.

[iguanaman8989]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is that just a toy thing, or is that actually a stated design difference? I thought both designs made use of a bay for their gunpods.

YF-21 the gunpods are mounted externally and are exposed.

VF-22 gunpods are mounted in the same spot, but have a stealth housing for them.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

It would be even more impressive if the writers of Delta had intended it to be that way. 

While my translator-y habits practically qualify me to swear in as an expert witness in the field of gift horse dentistry, I'm not gonna complain about them accidentally indulging in realism.

I will, however, gripe endlessly about the useless and thoroughly unloveable pack of designated heroes they foisted on us.

 

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

As for SMS, well, the reality was not lost on me, but the main group of heroes did kinda go rogue, steal company property and embark on a mission to discover the truth. So while SMS was corrupt, the heroes were not. We have to remember that membership in a group does not imply complicity. 

The crew of the SMS Macross Quarter wasn't... though technically Alto was unknowingly complicit in the whole conspiracy, having sided with the post-coup d'etat government and New UN Forces under its command.  SMS's administration was certainly complicit, and knowingly so.  Of course, they'd already been corruptly manipulating the Frontier fleet government for personal gain, but we're supposed to overlook that part.

 

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is that just a toy thing, or is that actually a stated design difference? I thought both designs made use of a bay for their gunpods.

No, that's an actual thing.  If you look at the YF-21 fighter mode vs. VF-22 fighter mode in line art, you'll notice the GV-17L gunpods are basically external mounts on the prototype, that become internal ones when the FAST packs are mounted.  The VF-22 sort of absorbed those FAST packs into the airframe, so the gunpods are fully internal like the VF-17's and fire through a special door in the airframe skin.

[Chronocidal]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, that's an actual thing.  If you look at the YF-21 fighter mode vs. VF-22 fighter mode in line art, you'll notice the GV-17L gunpods are basically external mounts on the prototype, that become internal ones when the FAST packs are mounted.  The VF-22 sort of absorbed those FAST packs into the airframe, so the gunpods are fully internal like the VF-17's and fire through a special door in the airframe skin.

Actually, I don't think even the YF-21's belly packs covered the gunpods.  At least on the Yamato version, they still just clipped underneath.

The VF-22 holding them internally was sadly anime magic though, since the toys had nothing resembling adequate space to fit the gunpods under those belly plate additions.

[no3Ljm]

Linearts from Macross Mecha Manual.

 

YF-21

 

VF-22

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Actually, I don't think even the YF-21's belly packs covered the gunpods.  At least on the Yamato version, they still just clipped underneath.

They're mostly covered by the FAST packs in the animation.

 

5 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

The VF-22 holding them internally was sadly anime magic though, since the toys had nothing resembling adequate space to fit the gunpods under those belly plate additions.

The toy had to cope with the material limitations of the plastic they were working with.  It had to be made a lot thicker than the metal on the actual fighter would be in scale in order to stand up to handling.

[Chronocidal]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The toy had to cope with the material limitations of the plastic they were working with.  It had to be made a lot thicker than the metal on the actual fighter would be in scale in order to stand up to handling.

True, guess the toy is a bad reference point.  More what I mean is that the shape of the exterior bulge they added to the 22 is nothing even close to the shape of the gunpods.  Could be further internal changes, I just always found it very suspicious that gunpods that tapered toward the front would fit in fairings that tapered the opposite direction (and had embedded missile launchers, to boot).  

It's all animation magic anyway, I'd just be really interested to see an internal diagram of where the gunpods were meant to go.

[iguanaman8989]

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

True, guess the toy is a bad reference point.  More what I mean is that the shape of the exterior bulge they added to the 22 is nothing even close to the shape of the gunpods.  Could be further internal changes, I just always found it very suspicious that gunpods that tapered toward the front would fit in fairings that tapered the opposite direction (and had embedded missile launchers, to boot).  

It's all animation magic anyway, I'd just be really interested to see an internal diagram of where the gunpods were meant to go.

I had forgotten the VF-22 had missile launchers in there. It's crazy how packed with stuff most variable fighters' legs are, like how the VF-31 has the engines, joint mechanisms, landing gear mechanics, missile launchers, and drone bays.

Back to the VF-22, I had always wondered how the missile launcher mechanism manages to wrap around both sides of the gunpod's muzzle.

[RealJayDee]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While my translator-y habits practically qualify me to swear in as an expert witness in the field of gift horse dentistry, I'm not gonna complain about them accidentally indulging in realism.

I will, however, gripe endlessly about the useless and thoroughly unloveable pack of designated heroes they foisted on us.

 

The crew of the SMS Macross Quarter wasn't... though technically Alto was unknowingly complicit in the whole conspiracy, having sided with the post-coup d'etat government and New UN Forces under its command.  SMS's administration was certainly complicit, and knowingly so.  Of course, they'd already been corruptly manipulating the Frontier fleet government for personal gain, but we're supposed to overlook that part.

 

No, that's an actual thing.  If you look at the YF-21 fighter mode vs. VF-22 fighter mode in line art, you'll notice the GV-17L gunpods are basically external mounts on the prototype, that become internal ones when the FAST packs are mounted.  The VF-22 sort of absorbed those FAST packs into the airframe, so the gunpods are fully internal like the VF-17's and fire through a special door in the airframe skin.

This debate about good idea / bad idea PMC put me thinking quite a bit.

In my honest opinion the idea of having elite contractors is always very merchandable. Its cool to be rogue, to be independent, to rebel, and shoot then ask questions. Also independent military contractors are not subject to military regulations, so it makes sense that every member had its own custom scheme.

The Frontier PMC main heroes were a nice twist from previous Macross entrances. I guess it allowed the characters to have a deeper identity on the field, vs being a soldier where obeyng commands is to be expected no matter what. 

I also enjoyed that they made very clear that the SMS would stand only for the highest bidder... so they getting the big guns before the NUNS made sense.

That gets me into asking how PMC would be a hit in the Macross universe?

Mi only answer is that human colonies have a small population, and are very scarce on military resources. Its a civil colony focused on discovering new planets, not invading or subduing. With the last, military overpower is not a priority, so their numbers are short, and any extra "help" is welcome. Enter the PMC who can easily move from one system to another as they are required, and who are cheaper to hire, than maintain a whole fix war fleet. That would be my only quick explanation for the need and succes for space mercenaries.

For Delta I think you guys covered it pretty much... I would only point out the fact of six singers in PMC.

How about a story where an elite PMC squad must compete vs an elite NUNS squad? a battle of skill, egos, tons of valk action and a singer here and there...

 

[Valkyrie Driver]

2 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

In my honest opinion the idea of having elite contractors is always very merchandable. Its cool to be rogue, to be independent, to rebel, and shoot then ask questions. Also independent military contractors are not subject to military regulations, so it makes sense that every member had its own custom scheme.

Except that concept could easily be done using real Special Mission Units (1st SFOD-D, NSW DEVGRU, 24th STS, SAS, KSK, and others) as a template. They don't follow military grooming standards, they don't wear uniforms, they operate independently, and they use non-standard gear, but are still technically military. They only adhere to grooming standards when they have to wear their uniforms, which is infrequent. Done and Done. 

2 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

The Frontier PMC main heroes were a nice twist from previous Macross entrances. I guess it allowed the characters to have a deeper identity on the field, vs being a soldier where obeyng commands is to be expected no matter what. 

I'm not going to say it was a nice twist, but it was different. I've never been enamored with PMC's. Also, if you knew anything about most military institutions in the developed world, You are only expected to follow legal orders. Even the greenest private is expected to question an order that seems wrong, especially when it runs counter to the core principles of the government they serve. Lessons from WWII taught us that. Aside from that, off duty (which is where we see most of the character development anyway) soldiers are allowed a great deal of individuality. 

2 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

I also enjoyed that they made very clear that the SMS would stand only for the highest bidder... so they getting the big guns before the NUNS made sense.

Which is exactly a thing I despise about PMC's and mercenaries in general. No loyalty except to their next paycheck. Soldiers get paid, sure, they are professionals after all, but their ultimate loyalty is to the people they serve, not the ones writing their paycheck. 

2 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

That gets me into asking how PMC would be a hit in the Macross universe?

Mi only answer is that human colonies have a small population, and are very scarce on military resources. Its a civil colony focused on discovering new planets, not invading or subduing. With the last, military overpower is not a priority, so their numbers are short, and any extra "help" is welcome. Enter the PMC who can easily move from one system to another as they are required, and who are cheaper to hire, than maintain a whole fix war fleet. That would be my only quick explanation for the need and succes for space mercenaries.

Actually, Colony fleets are quite populous. Macross 7 had a city ship that was roughly 5km long, and maybe 75% of that wide. That's a lot of area, and that doesn't include the other residential areas in the fleet. Island one of the Frontier fleet was roughly 3 times the size of City 7.  You can fit a lot of people in there. It's also shown that each fleet has more than enough military resources to defend itself. So why do you really need a PMC? Well, the only real reason to use a PMC, is that they are cheaper, and more expendable. Cheaper in that, you don't have to pay for their housing, meals, healthcare, dental, education benefits, life insurance, just their salary. Because you don't have any real equity in them, you can throw them away more readily.

There are a few reasons why PMC's are not elite and never will be. Reason 1) Benefits. The military offers benefits that PMC's will never be able to, like the ones I mentioned earlier. 2) Funeral costs, elite operators will want to go where their skills are used, and they'll likely die. PMC's won't pay out for the funeral. 3) The paycheck isn't as much as you think. Sure it's way more than base pay, but when you factor in all the benefits that you don't pay for in the military, the paycheck comes out about the same or less. Most operators that go contract, don't tend to stay there long after they realize that what they're being paid isn't worth the risk. The ones who stick with contract work are the ones who can't get hired anywhere else. PMC's will hire dishonorable discharges, a condition which will prevent you from holding any sort of meaningful job. PMC's are dregs, no matter how much fiction tries to make them look good. 

I'll cite Seto's earlier example of MITHRIL from Full Metal Panic!, even there they had hired some folks that were less than desirable. Folks whose only allegiance was to whomever paid them enough. Sorry, but you will never convince me that PMC's are good for anything other than deniable operations. I wouldn't even trust them with security. 

2 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

How about a story where an elite PMC squad must compete vs an elite NUNS squad? a battle of skill, egos, tons of valk action and a singer here and there...

If there was any authenticity or realism to be had in such a show, the PMC's would get spanked in the first 3 episodes. Furthermore, when it comes to elite military operators, there is no ego. SOF guys don't brag about who and what they are, they don't care if you know, in most cases they don't want you to know. If people know about their job, they haven't been doing it right. A SeAL will tell you he's a diver, a SF guy (or Green Beret if you will) will tell you he's an instructor, A Ranger will tell you that he's a Ranger, but you won't know if he's in the Regiment or just has his short tab, until you see his uniform. A PJ will tell you he's a medic, CCT's and JTAC's will tell you that they're just ATC guys. They don't think they're special, even if those of us who aren't think they are. Ego wouldn't enter into the equation for them. Fighter pilots, for all of their groundside bravado, are consummate professionals when they get up in the sky. They don't believe they have to prove that they're better than you, they know it. I should know, I grew up with one as a father. In competition, these sort of Alpha personalities know that ego will get you killed. 

But this is entertainment, so egos make for drama. Though I would find it utterly hilarious to watch a PMC, that thinks it's hot stuff, to go up against a bunch of humble elite military guys, and see the PMC get their crap pushed in. 

I'd even love to see a more competitive love triangle, between one of the PMC guys and one of the NUNS guys, both pursuing the singer. Then watch the NUNS guy get the girl, because PMC's suck and are stupid. Bonus points if the NUNS guy has a badass Robin Olds¹ style moustache... 

 

¹ In case you don't know who Robin Olds was, he was a Vietnam Era USAF F4 Pilot. He was an ace, and also was married to a movie star, Ella Raines. A Man's man if ever there was one... More about him here.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

In my honest opinion the idea of having elite contractors is always very merchandable. Its cool to be rogue, to be independent, to rebel, and shoot then ask questions. Also independent military contractors are not subject to military regulations, so it makes sense that every member had its own custom scheme.

Ironically, while it sounds super cool to have these maverick privateers faffing about the battlefield flouting orders with devil-may-care independence... it'd actually make them criminals.  They'd wind up classified as unlawful combatants in wartime, as they're civilian combatants who are not part of any militia, volunteer corps, etc., don't carry fixed markings, and if they flout orders from the gov't that means they're also not under a responsible command.  If they got captured, they wouldn't be eligible for the protections guaranteed to prisoners of war.  They'd almost be terrorists, in terms of their legal standing.

The bit about not being subject to military regulations is actually false.  In fact, in Macross Frontier, the SMS Frontier branch makes it pretty clear they're subject to the authority of the fleet's New UN Forces.  They needed to clear up jurisdictional matters and get approvals from the NUNS to launch the SMS Macross Quarter at all, and during wartime their contracts specifically state that they have to answer to the authority of the fleet's New UN Forces up to and including not being permitted to quit the service.  (Ozma also makes it clear that the vast majority of SMS's equipment is really the property of the fleet NUNS, and is just on loan to them.)

The same could have been achieved just as easily, and with a lot less stupidity, by having all the main characters belong to a New UN Spacy Independent Squadron, like the VF-X Ravens or Havamal.

 

 

10 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

I also enjoyed that they made very clear that the SMS would stand only for the highest bidder... so they getting the big guns before the NUNS made sense.

Well, they made it clear that SMS would stand for the highest bidder... even if it meant defying the government to which they were contracted, and aiding a foreign power that was suspected of both espionage and war crimes.  That puts them solidly in villain protagonist territory.

Also, their getting big guns before the NUNS has nothing to do with that.  Those who were paying attention in the Macross Frontier series will note that Ozma explicitly tells Alto that the reason SMS has the new VF-25 is they were hired to test the VF-25 in combat conditions before its adoption by the fleet's New UN Forces.  The VF-25s, and indeed the SMS Macross Quarter herself, are property of the Macross Frontier Government and its New UN Forces, on loan to SMS for testing purposes.  (This is why Col. Wilder says they're pirates when they leave the fleet... they stole a starship that's legally New UN Forces property, along with a bunch of trial production next-gen fighters.)

 

 

10 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

That gets me into asking how PMC would be a hit in the Macross universe?

The actual answer, once again obligingly provided by Maj. Ozma Lee, is WAY more sinister than you think.

Why are PMCs a popular option in the Macross universe?  As Ozma explains, it's because the PMCs provide troops who are expendable.  There's no military or government accountability for deaths of private contractors.  Private contractors who die in the line of duty, even in combat, are considered to have died in accidents for legal purposes.  No wrongful death lawsuits.  No inquests.  No widows pension.  No military burial.  Nothing.

To a certain extent, it's also because PMCs can be relied upon to be amoral.  They'll cheerfully do things that are not necessarily legal, like deceiving the New UN Government about the progress in developing a next-gen fighter on an isolated planet.

 

 

10 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

Mi only answer is that human colonies have a small population, and are very scarce on military resources. Its a civil colony focused on discovering new planets, not invading or subduing. With the last, military overpower is not a priority, so their numbers are short, and any extra "help" is welcome.

Granted, the first generation of emigrant fleets weren't particularly populous... but they all have a disproportionately large military contingent, because of the ever-present danger of running into a rogue Zentradi fleet, or anti-government terrorists, etc.  Even those early emigrant fleets left our solar system with more firepower than many modern militaries.

There's an example given of one fairly small first-generation emigrant fleet with what is said to be approximately typical military strength for its era.  It had over 700 variable fighters, 9 carriers, 16 cruisers, and 48 destroyers.  It had more manpower at its disposal than the entire regular British Royal Air Force and almost twice as many fighters as the German Luftwaffe... and that's a SMALL emigrant fleet military.

The 37th Large-Scale Emigrant Fleet "Macross-7" makes that look like a garden party, with 1,800 variable fighters, 600 variable attackers, 9 variable bombers, 66 carriers, and 120 frigates.  To put that into a usable real-world perspective, the Macross-7 emigrant fleet New UN Forces constitutes what the New UN Forces would consider a medium-sized defense force... one that would easily be the fourth-largest air force on the planet Earth if it existed today.  The entire US Air Force only has 2,025 fighters, and they're the biggest air force on Earth.  That's for a fleet with a population of 1 million.

Now stop and consider that the fifth-generation emigrant fleets like Macross Frontier can be almost five times the size of the Macross-7 fleet.  Macross Valiant is noted to have led a fleet of over 900 ships.  Scaled linearly, that fleet could have over 11,000 variable combat aircraft.  That's one fleet with more air power than the US, China, and Russia COMBINED.  They have carriers that hold far more aircraft than most modern nations have in their entire inventories.  Fleets of that size have a population of ~10 million.

Military power is seen as something of a priority by the emigrant fleets for a few reasons.  The first acknowledged reason is that there are rogue Zentradi and other threats out there that will wipe an emigrant fleet out as soon as look at it.  Maintaining a strong defense is vital to ensuring the fleet's civilians stay safe on their voyage to their new home.  The second is that a certain amount of fleet military power is necessary for a strong negotiating position when staking claims to resources and negotiating trade agreements with rival fleets.  Macross-29 is noted to have had its economy pretty much collapse outright as a result of becoming everybody's doormat in trade agreements once their timid, cowardly President (Howard Glass's brother, no less) abolished their military.

 

10 hours ago, RealJayDee said:

How about a story where an elite PMC squad must compete vs an elite NUNS squad? a battle of skill, egos, tons of valk action and a singer here and there...

You saw that in Macross Delta, actually... before their planet's government seceded from the New UN Government in 2060, Windermere IV's Aerial Knights were Windermere's New UN Forces, with help from a garrison from abroad.  

None of the Aerial Knights in the series except Master Hermann had any combat experience prior to their attack on Al Shahal, and just one flight of their best spanked Xaos's forces so hard they ran the whole Xaos PMC group out of the Brisingr cluster, killed Xaos's top ace casually, and pretty much won the war outright but for backstabbing by their own side.

[SMS007]

As much as I love Frontier, I find it complete rubbish that high school students can be frontline SMS troopers. How the hell does anyone have the time to balance schoolwork and military-style training? And do these guys just get to leave school without consequence to sortie any time an enemy attacks?

(Yes, I'm aware that unrealistically superhuman time management is par for the course in shōnen anime and the like, but still.)

Now meanwhile in Delta, Mirage is only 18 and yet she's supposedly a veteran of the New U.N. Spacy, wherein she saw combat action against humanoid enemies. Do I smell military washout here?

Edited December 19, 2017 by SMS007

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

As much as I love Frontier, I find it complete rubbish that high school students can be frontline SMS troopers. How the hell does anyone have the time to balance schoolwork and military-style training?

Grace O'Connor actually serves up a fairly sunccinct explanation of exactly this in the Macross Frontier TV series.  I'll summarize.

Mihoshi Academy is not a traditional high school.  It's not a general education or college prep school, it's more like a consolidated set of vocational schools and specialist prepatory programs aimed at meeting the needs of the emigrant fleet's hard-to-fill jobs in the aerospace, technology, information science, fine, and performing arts industries.  The Space Navigation major that Alto, Luca, Michael, and Sheryl are all enrolled in in the Macross Frontier TV series is basically a no-obligation ROTC program for the New UN Spacy.  They get a modest gen-ed courseload and three years of flight school, graduating as fully-qualified pilots.  (The novels are more explicit about the training involved, indicating that the Space Navigation students train not just on EX-Gear that matches the specs of the military's latest, but also on civilian-market VFs.)  As Luca notes, the only real options for someone in that major are flying commercially (presumably for Bilra Transport or one of its rivals) or joining the armed forces.

The actual dedicated military training the cast had to go through was considerably reduced as a result of their having had several years of training already.

 

 

3 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

And do these guys just get to leave school without consequence to sortie any time an enemy attacks?

Considering SMS's parent company literally bankrolled the construction of the entire fleet, owns most of the government, and also has a near-monopoly on the fleet's interstellar shipping... who's going to argue?

 

 

3 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Now meanwhile in Delta, Mirage is only 18 and yet she's supposedly a veteran of the New U.N. Spacy, wherein she saw combat action against humanoid enemies. Do I smell military washout here?

Her tenure with the New UN Spacy was very short, likely lasting less than a year given her age.

She probably enlisted via special entry like Gamlin Kizaki did, joining the military underage with parental permission contingent on her being legally an adult by the time her training was finished (as is also possible in the real world).  Whether she finished training in two years like Gamlin, or took the full three like everyone else, is unclear.

(The age of majority under the New UN Government is 17.)

[SMS007]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Grace O'Connor actually serves up a fairly sunccinct explanation of exactly this in the Macross Frontier TV series.  I'll summarize.

Mihoshi Academy is not a traditional high school.  It's not a general education or college prep school, it's more like a consolidated set of vocational schools and specialist prepatory programs aimed at meeting the needs of the emigrant fleet's hard-to-fill jobs in the aerospace, technology, information science, fine, and performing arts industries.  The Space Navigation major that Alto, Luca, Michael, and Sheryl are all enrolled in in the Macross Frontier TV series is basically a no-obligation ROTC program for the New UN Spacy.  They get a modest gen-ed courseload and three years of flight school, graduating as fully-qualified pilots.  (The novels are more explicit about the training involved, indicating that the Space Navigation students train not just on EX-Gear that matches the specs of the military's latest, but also on civilian-market VFs.)  As Luca notes, the only real options for someone in that major are flying commercially (presumably for Bilra Transport or one of its rivals) or joining the armed forces.

The actual dedicated military training the cast had to go through was considerably reduced as a result of their having had several years of training already.

Oh right, I forgot about that part.

Come to think of it, though, "Mihoshi Gakuen" is the school's name, isn't it? One would think that they would come up with a more grandiose name given their elite offerings.

Edited December 20, 2017 by SMS007

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Grace O'Connor actually serves up a fairly sunccinct explanation of exactly this in the Macross Frontier TV series.  I'll summarize.

Mihoshi Academy is not a traditional high school.  It's not a general education or college prep school, it's more like a consolidated set of vocational schools and specialist prepatory programs aimed at meeting the needs of the emigrant fleet's hard-to-fill jobs in the aerospace, technology, information science, fine, and performing arts industries.  The Space Navigation major that Alto, Luca, Michael, and Sheryl are all enrolled in in the Macross Frontier TV series is basically a no-obligation ROTC program for the New UN Spacy.  They get a modest gen-ed courseload and three years of flight school, graduating as fully-qualified pilots.  (The novels are more explicit about the training involved, indicating that the Space Navigation students train not just on EX-Gear that matches the specs of the military's latest, but also on civilian-market VFs.)  As Luca notes, the only real options for someone in that major are flying commercially (presumably for Bilra Transport or one of its rivals) or joining the armed forces.

The actual dedicated military training the cast had to go through was considerably reduced as a result of their having had several years of training already.

The other thing that most North Americans tend to overlook is that high school is not mandatory in Japan.  As such, the high school experience is VERY different from the North American version.  Seto is correct in identifying it as a vocational school.  It's somewhere in between a 2 to 3 year technical college and a high school.

So, while the protagonists are young, from the Japanese perspective, it is plausible.

[SMS007]

I wonder what innovation to the Macross class design lineage the next series could have. We've already got first generation Macrosses, Battles, quarter Macrosses, and two-thirds Macrosses. What's next? Multi-vector assault mode?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, SMS007 said:

I wonder what innovation to the Macross class design lineage the next series could have. We've already got first generation Macrosses, Battles, quarter Macrosses, and two-thirds Macrosses.

Don't forget the Macross Cannon-class, and the Battle-class covers a multitude of sins since we've seen at least three major variations/subclasses¹ and it's strongly implied that no two of them were truly identical.  (The same is explicitly stated for the Macross-class SDFNs, that no two conform to precisely the same spec because a lot of their hardware was diverted from Zentradi warships.)  If the Sayonara no Tsubasa movie is any indicator, the Macross Quarter-class has the same issue...

 

1 minute ago, SMS007 said:

What's next? Multi-vector assault mode?

Technically, the Battle-class, Quarter-class, and Elysion-type are all capable of that... independently operable modules has been explicitly described, including the ability of the Gunship to fire using its internal reactors, but never properly animated.  Macross Elysion was the first to actually depict the freely-detachable modular components operating independently in the case of the Aether and her sister ship Hemera... sadly with no sign of the long-awaited Rocket Punch.

 

1. Respectively, the Initial Type of which the Battle 7 was a representative sample, the Next Generation Type that Macross 13 was, and what I'll call the Late Type that Battle Galaxy and Battle Frontier were.  It could be argued, given that the distinction is made for the fleet-specific variant subclass of the Northampton-class stealth frigate that the Battle 5 represents a fourth major variation as a Zentradi Type.

[Focslain]

Is the Cannon class that four armed behemoth in Macross II? 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, Focslain said:

Is the Cannon class that four armed behemoth in Macross II? 

Ja.