I think i figured out Macross7

[VF5SS]

I don't think you payed any attention to what you were watching.

[Ginrai]

Basara doesn't develop much as a character because Mylene is the main character and she develops a lot.

[VFTF1]

Mylene is the main character and she develops a lot

Ho ho ho

I will admit that Mylene does appear to grow as a charater... although to this day I can't say I find her very attractive...but then again - I'm wierd like that. I absolutely can't stand most 90s fashion...clothes...hair... it's not "bad" - it's just...I dunno...I felt very alone in the 90s...Like...where did the 80s go? Then they slowly but surely started making a come-back...

Pete

[Ginrai]

You don't have to find her attractive for her to be the protagonist.

[anime52k8]

You realize the show has at least twenty other character besides Basara?

What about MILLIA ZA PRESIDENTO?!

yes, and I was talking specifically about ONE of them

[Killer Robot]

Basara doesn't develop much as a character because Mylene is the main character and she develops a lot.

That's just it too. I liked Mylene quite a bit just because she had more depth than most of the cast, but even she seemed to change less than any of the three focal characters in either SDFM or MacF, even Alto who definitely could have used more development. Sitcom-like, there seemed to be a lot of "Mylene learns a valuable lesson" episodes, but the feeling that she had really been changed over the course of the series still felt fairly limited. She isn't as totally static as Basara, but for the most dynamic protagonist of the longest Macross series I think we could have gotten more than that.

[VFTF1]

You don't have to find her attractive for her to be the protagonist.

I ...never quite... thought of it like that. Hm. I guess you're right.

On another note regarding this "problem" of Basara not developing as a character... see - I agree with this as a matter of literary fact. The problem is, I LIKE Basara as a character enough that I actually enjoy watching him do his thing throughout the series. I don't ever really feel the desire to see the character change drastically. The only "change" I expect from Basara is that he comes up with new music from time to time instead of singing Planet Dance over and over and over. That was, in fact, the only thing I really found annoying...

Speaking of which - here's something that definitely could have improved the story line in Macross 7: Dwelling more in detail on Basara's musical inspiration...

We saw on a couple of occasions how he'd sit around trying to come up with new songs. At one point, he even quite the band and left Macross 7 to go on a soul searching artistic journey.

But other than actually SEEING him strumming his guitar and going "hmm...?" or seeing him walking around on other planets... we don't really see his thinking or artistic creative process in action. It's just "hmm" and then whamo - a new Yoshiki Fukayama song.

Now, granted, in Macross Dynamite, we get to see a bit more of Basara just going crazy with his guitar, looking for "that right tune" and the female lead (forgot her name) says at one point "so this is what artists are like."

But I still never really got a sense of where Basara's direction is coming from... and also...I didn't get the sense that there is any creativity going on.

See, with Minmey, her hit song "My Boyfriend is Pilot" was clearly based on her budding relationship/friendship with Hikaru and her somewhat tease-like nature. Later, it was plausible that her producers were writing songs for her as they got a bit more pop like. And we also saw in her beginnings how she'd been practicing singing and taking part in contests and so forth and so on... we saw an artistic process there...

In Frontier, the tension between professionalism and straight-from-the-heart inspiration was very well pronounced both in the struggle between Sheryl and Ranka, and also in the personal struggles of Sheryl and of Ranka.

But in Macross 7, Basara really is just this little kid who decided to move a mountain and the songs just "came" to him... I guess that's plausible - but I will agree that it's not as fun to watch.

Characters like Sheryl were pretty 'non-dynamic' insofar as Sheryl played out her character archetype to the T without really "changing" wildly in the course of the series. But it was more interesting to watch than Basara because Sheryl has a fine ass and great body to go through a number of challenges both on a personal level and on a professional level, and there are enough twists and turns in the plot line to make it really interesting to watch...not to mention there's more humor and levity allowed in than there was with the uber-serious Basara.

Again, this is no way diminishes for me the pleasure of Macross 7, and I STILL think that the problem with most people - and reason why I disagree with Macross 7 detractors - is not that I find the series flawless while they think it sucks. The problem really comes down to Basara. I can agree with critics and detractors about a host of issues, but in the end - the make-or-break of Macross 7 is simple: do you like Basara and his music?

If you do (like me), then all the other faults are interesting topics of conversation and legit critiques - but they won't change my core view that Macross 7 is a cool series.

If you don't like Basara - then nothing will ever convince you to like Macross 7, since his character is just so over-bearing in the series.

Pete

[Gubaba]

See, with Minmey, her hit song "My Boyfriend is Pilot" was clearly based on her budding relationship/friendship with Hikaru and her somewhat tease-like nature. Later, it was plausible that her producers were writing songs for her as they got a bit more pop like. And we also saw in her beginnings how she'd been practicing singing and taking part in contests and so forth and so on... we saw an artistic process there...

I agree with your point over all, but I'd make a slight quibble here. There's no indication that Minmay actually wrote any of her songs, and it's stated quite clearly (in Episode 10) that "My Boyfriend Is a Pilot" was written FOR her.

Now, it's possible that at the end of the series, she was writing her own songs (when she was searching for her "real voice"), but at the beginning, she was very definitely shepherded by songwriter(s) and manager(s).

[VFTF1]

Yeah - that's true. But I have always considered my Boyfriend is a Pilot to be somewhat based off of her relationship to Hikaru... UNLESS that is, the producers came up with the great marketing idea that on a star ship full of Valkyries and Valkyrie pilots responsible for protecting everyone, it would be best for a cute young girl to sing a song called "my boyfriend is a pilot" ... hmmm...

Pete

[Keith]

Basara doesn't need to grow or change as a character, he was right to begin with, knew exactly what he needed to do, and everyone else in the freakin' universe had to catch up to "him."

[VFTF1]

Yeah, but the key here is not whether or not Basara was right, but whether or not him being right for 49 episodes is interesting or not. I think it is interesting; and it's interesting to watch the universe "catch up" to him. But if someone flat out thinks Basaa is "wrong" then I can see how that would make Macross 7 a hard experience...

Also - the universe catching up to Basara...well... again - this is something that could have been done better. See, all I remember are good moments, but it took a while for those to manifest themselves. UN Spacey commanders being angry at Basara for not being willing to take orders is a good example, or Basara's insistence on helping free Sivil.. even leading Gamlin to punch that officer...

Macross 7 had a lot of good ideas and good moments. It's just it was kind of clunky in terms of bringing everything together into a coherent whole.

This is forgivable if you love music and can rock to each episode. But if you don't...I can see how people would have trouble with it.

These troubles dissapeared with Frontier, which did a much better job, plot wise, and made for an all around better story.

Pete

[Killer Robot]

Yeah, but the key here is not whether or not Basara was right, but whether or not him being right for 49 episodes is interesting or not. I think it is interesting; and it's interesting to watch the universe "catch up" to him. But if someone flat out thinks Basaa is "wrong" then I can see how that would make Macross 7 a hard experience...

Also - the universe catching up to Basara...well... again - this is something that could have been done better. See, all I remember are good moments, but it took a while for those to manifest themselves. UN Spacey commanders being angry at Basara for not being willing to take orders is a good example, or Basara's insistence on helping free Sivil.. even leading Gamlin to punch that officer...

I can't think of any long series I was a big fan of where the hero was always right, never had to change his strategy or examine his thinking, and overcame every challenge by convincing the other side he'd been right all along.

But that aside, I'm frustrated by the fact that I've seen a likable Basara. The first Macross 7 I saw was The Galaxy is Calling Me. It had Basara as this enthusiastic dreamer. Engaged, outgoing, interacting with rather than forcing himself on the world around. He was still that free spirit and some people didn't appreciate it or go for that newfangled music of his, but he felt like the kind of person who could win people over, even just in that 35 minute span. Then I saw the TV show and he felt so much more disengaged beginning to end that it was hard to believe it the same guy. Fans? If he feels like it today. Others passionate about music? *yawn* Chasing his dreams? Maybe sort of, but in repetitive fashion such that he doesn't catch them so much as the plot sweeping them eventually into his arms. So I can agree there's an interesting character idea there, and even that it had moments. Just the rest of the time it failed somewhere between the concept stage and the final script and I'm less adept than some at mentally glossing over the gaps.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Killer Robot

[RedWolf]

Let me put it this way. What if Isamu Dyson was a pacifist? You get Basara.

Thus Basara is portrayed as a Magnifent Bastard.

Whatever criticisms characters have of him he always end up right.

He's like KR Kabuto Tendou Souji with his "Man who walks the path of Heaven" shtick.

[Keith]

Again, Bassara felt "disengaged" because Macross 7 was designed to take you along with the universe in catching up to Basara. Mylene & Gamlin are the perfect audience windows for following along with him, and learning to understand him.

And then of course there are those of us who from scene one jump up and yell "F^CK YEAH, this is awesome." And in the end, I don't care if you don't get it, because this show was apparently made for me!

Edited September 8, 2009 by Keith

[VFTF1]

I'm still not sold on the Isamu/Basara parallels. I think Isamu is just a wreckless pilot, not a deep thinker, nor an artist, nor someone who is particularly fascinated with the beauty of the universe. Isamu is "just a grunt" ("no offense") [somebody please say "none taken"...crap...must get out of Aliens loop.....]...

Eer... anyways...yeah. Isamu is a boring character as far as I'm concerned. Guld is far more interesting if only for the fact that he is constantly struggling to supress his latent Zendradi bio-engineered war-rage. Isamu's one saving grace was the he lied to Guld to protect his friend from the sad truth that it was Guld who attacked Myun. That was very noble, and made me appreciate Isamu as a noble person (well - that and his general insistence of breaking the rules when he knows it's the right thing to do)...

Hm - I don't want to get sidetracked... there's just really not much to say about Isamu... Much more to say about Basara. Isamu just isn't as compelling. His story is nice, but once it's done...does anybody really care to have Macross continue HIS tale?

Probably the weakest character in the entire franchise.

Ouch.

Sorry Isamu and Macross Plus fans

Pete

[Awacs]

None taken.....

Funny, I have pretty much the same reaction to both Isamu and Basara to be honest. I have a certain amount of respect for both of them - Isamu is an irritating goof-off who has a colossal arrogant streak but when it comes down to brass tacks is at heart loyal to his friends to a fault, Basara is infuriating because he is full of absolute certainty about what he believes but I have to give him kudos for being loyal to his beliefs to a fault. That said, I would find socialising with either of them insanely irritating and we would no doubt end up shouting loudly at each other after a couple of drinks.

Macross 7 I will admit to only seeing some of. I quite enjoyed what I saw - I thought the idea of having a lead character who was an out-and-out pacifist was an interesting way to approach some of the typical Macross themes. I also am quite fond of some of the music - not for nothing does my MP3 player have "Parade", "My Friends", "Seventh Moon" and "Heart and Soul" as permanent residents. For me the one flaw is the fact that Basara as a person seems to lack a plan for actually talking to people. I can see where he's coming from with his "more show, less tell" approach to spreading the word, but when it comes to actually trying to explain where he's coming from to people his approach seemed to come across to me as "stand there in my rightness and be right until everyone acknowledges the rightness of my point of view." I'm not sure though that Basara wasn't actually intended to have problems vocalising what he was getting at, so I may just be pointing to a feature rather than a bug.

(And for the record I am quite fond of some of the humor of Macross Seven - the Max and Milia at daggers drawn over their marriage was played on just the right side of farce for my tastes.)

Karl

(I can honestly say that I haven't encountered any Macross series that I haven't been able to find something to enjoy in - and 7 us no exception)

[VFTF1]

Not to rain on anybody's parades - but one of the things that makes Basara interesting is that his pacifism is not, actually, as one sided as all these statements about him being an "out and out" pacifist imply.

Basrara did shoot missiles at the Protodevilin on one occasion, reacting out of instinct and fear. And he did physically attack some people who were intent on gang banging Mylene (or something like that) at one point - and then got mad at them for "making him hit them."

So, while he knew violence to be wrong and definitely advocated pacifism and communication as a matter of principle - he wasn't perfect; and this is something I also appreciate about the story - that Basara is not a total cardboard 1 dimmension character. He has feelings and passions and can also make mistakes (including swinging his fists at people).

That he struggles with how to put his pacifism into practice - and fails so many times at it - is a good story.

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

Not to rain on anybody's parades - but one of the things that makes Basara interesting is that his pacifism is not, actually, as one sided as all these statements about him being an "out and out" pacifist imply.

You say it as if there's other things that make him interesting. hehe. kidding.

Basrara did shoot missiles at the Protodevilin on one occasion, reacting out of instinct and fear. And he did physically attack some people who were intent on gang banging Mylene (or something like that) at one point - and then got mad at them for "making him hit them."

So, while he knew violence to be wrong and definitely advocated pacifism and communication as a matter of principle - he wasn't perfect; and this is something I also appreciate about the story - that Basara is not a total cardboard 1 dimmension character. He has feelings and passions and can also make mistakes (including swinging his fists at people).

That he struggles with how to put his pacifism into practice - and fails so many times at it - is a good story.

Pete

Actuallyi i never saw or felt that there was any internal struggle at all. when he attacked with missiles, did he blame himself for being a bit violent? nope, i think he blamed Ray for putting missiles in the first place. And when he was forced to attack the gang, did he pause to contemplate that he might not be as peace-loving as he thinks? not at all, i think he blamed Mylene for starting the whole mess in the first place, if i recall correctly. i've always felt (and this is just my opinion, of course), that he's as cardboard as it can get. and i actually think he was intentionally written that way.

[DHX]

you know what?

now i know i'm never watching macross 7

[Keith]

You say it as if there's other things that make him interesting. hehe. kidding.

Actuallyi i never saw or felt that there was any internal struggle at all. when he attacked with missiles, did he blame himself for being a bit violent? nope, i think he blamed Ray for putting missiles in the first place. And when he was forced to attack the gang, did he pause to contemplate that he might not be as peace-loving as he thinks? not at all, i think he blamed Mylene for starting the whole mess in the first place, if i recall correctly. i've always felt (and this is just my opinion, of course), that he's as cardboard as it can get. and i actually think he was intentionally written that way.

Warning her against getting involved with (gang?) members, and blaming her for making him fight are two different things. And yeah, Basara was mad at Ray for arming his Valkyrie without telling him, but he was also clearly pissed at himself for using them in desperation, regardless of the outcome, Basara was someone who believed there was always a better way. He made sure later to find that way.

[Keith]

you know what?

now i know i'm never watching macross 7

You might as well give up anime all together.

[Sketch]

you know what?

now i know i'm never watching macross 7

Good, one less troll.

[DHX]

Good, one less troll.

if this gets me banned so be it.

F*ck you sketch.

i like how i'm sudden lumped as a troll.

do you know why i'm sure i'm not going to watch mac 7? is it me bashing the music centric plot? hell do i go into every thread spouting how it's the work of the anti christ or some poo like that?

no.

the reason i'm not going to watch it is i have read this thread, i have read both sides of the argument and the picture they paint of nekki, is a character i'm not intrested in, nor would i like.

so rather than put myself through a show with a character i'm not intrested in i'm not going to watch it.

[azrael]

Sketch, DHX, how about both of you do me a favor and sit out this thread before I decide to ban both of you.

[DJ_Convoy]

I honestly think my biggest problem with the series is the Protodevlin. I can't stand them. Also, if I liked Fire Bomber's music a little better, I think I'd dig the series a little more. I like some of their stuff, but not much of it.

That being said, the best way to deal with M7 is just to take it for what it is. The show is ambitious in some ways and not especially ambitious in others. Whether it succeeds in these ambitions is up to the viewer.

Edited September 9, 2009 by DJ_Convoy

[Knight26]

Mac7 can be hard to watch at times, but it is still a good and important series in the Macross mythos. I've said this before, but I think that M7's biggest problem was that it was too light, but that was the era when it was produced, an overly dark anime back then would have likely failed. If you watch M7 today and just imagine basara actually being the grunge rocker he looked like off stage, and the darker storylines about the protodevlin being, well, dark, it improves the story a great deal IMHO. Also, realize that Basara could easily be retconned to be the child of Shin and Sara from M0, this would explain his abilities nicely and and his attitude.

[Gubaba]

I honestly think my biggest problem with the series is the Protodevlin. I can't stand them. Also, if I liked Fire Bomber's music a little better, I think I'd dig the series a little more. I like some of their stuff, but not much of it.

That being said, the best way to deal with M7 is just to take it for what it is. The show is ambitious in some ways and not especially ambitious in others. Whether it succeeds in these ambitions is up to the viewer.

I have to agree with that. I like the cast of Macross 7 (yes, Basara included). I like the overall story, and I don't even mind the quantifying of musical passion...but if it had been about ten episodes shorter, if the animation had been a little bit better, and if the Protodeviln had been more threatening, it would have been an outstanding show.

As it is, I like it, but I don't adore it.

[nexxstrait]

I think the title of this thread is misleading: simply put, Macross 7 CAN'T be figured out. That's the beauty of the show (oh, my, I said "the beauty"...)

Edited September 9, 2009 by nexxstrait

[Killer Robot]

Mac7 can be hard to watch at times, but it is still a good and important series in the Macross mythos. I've said this before, but I think that M7's biggest problem was that it was too light, but that was the era when it was produced, an overly dark anime back then would have likely failed. If you watch M7 today and just imagine basara actually being the grunge rocker he looked like off stage, and the darker storylines about the protodevlin being, well, dark, it improves the story a great deal IMHO. Also, realize that Basara could easily be retconned to be the child of Shin and Sara from M0, this would explain his abilities nicely and and his attitude.

I have to mention that Macross 7 came out a year before Evangelion, so I don't think the market was unprepared to enjoy a dark mecha series. Fairer to say that it was not something that would have been expected to do well, and that Macross 7 played to the known audience: playing to the kids, playing formula, playing lots of music, and not trying to change the world's view of the genre. I agree that it could have been more adventurous a series in many ways, but some of those ways might have made it worse and/or less successful.

As for watching it today and imagining the kind of series it could have been rather than the kind of series it was, I'm not sure that makes me feel so much better most ways.

[Gui]

[...] And in the end, I don't care if you don't get it, because this show was apparently made for me!

No

It was made for me

[...] I also am quite fond of some of the music - not for nothing does my MP3 player have "Parade", "My Friends", "Seventh Moon" and "Heart and Soul" as permanent residents. [...]

Hey, me too!

-------

Anyway, M7 is the perfect example of the creation which will not be fully understood before an incalculable number of centuries...

In the meanwhile, enjoy it for what it is. Or don't. Your call...

[VFTF1]

The one thing that remains a mystery to me about Macross 7 is why the leader of a group of sentient bio-mechanic super weapons from a different dimension would want to appear to us as a Transsexual stripper whose side kick is a naked angel with cotton around his crotch and a lolly pop in his head.

Other than that - it makes perfect sense

Pete

[Valkyrie addict]

not another Macross 7 thread...

[Keith]

The one thing that remains a mystery to me about Macross 7 is why the leader of a group of sentient bio-mechanic super weapons from a different dimension would want to appear to us as a Transsexual stripper whose side kick is a naked angel with cotton around his crotch and a lolly pop in his head.

Other than that - it makes perfect sense

Pete

What the hell kind of Macross fan are you? Do you even pay attention to the shows? Don't you remember the Macross episode "Satan's Dolls," where after extensive research, Exedor discovered that the Protoculture imprinted the genes of all life they "altered" with the Rocky Horror Picture Show?!

[Zinjo]

Many writers have said that you don't have to like a character for them to be the protagonist, you just have to understand them. IMO, Mylene was the protagonist of the series since she grew the most and we saw much of the story through her eyes. She was a spolied child (common with the baby of the family) who had to grow up and be the responsible one since Basara was so irresponsible. Basara was more of a principle character that became Mylene's catalyst for change and growth.

I've come to understand Basara since I've known a few of his type. The "artist" out of touch with reality. Seriously, if you honestly believe you can move a mountain by shreiking at it you are in "La La Land"! He's the type who'd be perfectly content being a busker on a street corner living off the loose change, so long as people heard him sing. It was Mylene and Roy who were the driving force behind the band and actually built the Firebomber fanbase. Basara couldn't care less about the fans, he just wanted his songs to be heard by anyone, anywhere, it didn't matter.

He also fulfilled the role of hero pilot for the series because every Macross series has to have one! Though, Gamlin was his chief rival in that respect.

The antagonists IMO should have been scarier and much more menacing, which they unfortunately weren't. It made it hard for scifi fans to believe that these characters could have been responsible for the downfall of a Galactic Republic that lasted for thousands of years.

As a vehicle for the record company and the toy makers to capitalize on, it did its job. Unfortunately it was about 25 episodes too long to have a tight, compelling story. The good stories always seem too short and the weak ones always seem too long...

However, it wasn't until Dynamite that Basara actually became a protagonist. He actually did something meaningful in that show as opposed to play his guitar, write his little songs and brood about how everyone else didn't get his message, eventhough he didn't articulate it very well at all.

[VFTF1]

What the hell kind of Macross fan are you? Do you even pay attention to the shows? Don't you remember the Macross episode "Satan's Dolls," where after extensive research, Exedor discovered that the Protoculture imprinted the genes of all life they "altered" with the Rocky Horror Picture Show?!

I usually don't actually read the sub-titles, or even look at what's going on. I just stare at Misa when she's on screen and dream about her when she's off screen.

Pete