Macross Frontier and prior Macross mysteries

[Killer Robot]

Not to say Star Wars hasn't had plenty of bad plot devices and overthought details since the EU books started coming out, but most of the bad writing in those goes into weird lightsabers, Force stuff, and so on rather than the FTL details.

[Master Dex]

Not to say Star Wars hasn't had plenty of bad plot devices and overthought details since the EU books started coming out, but most of the bad writing in those goes into weird lightsabers, Force stuff, and so on rather than the FTL details.

Very true, which is why I usually stick to a certain caste of EU Star Wars books, because there are several interesting ones. The Thrawn Trilogy is really good for story, and Republic Commando is a must (if not just because it focuses of the troops more than the Jedi, which the movies do enough of themselves).

However lets not get off topic from this Macross themed thread by talking about Star Wars and other series FTL too much. Although the original purpose of this thread is kind of moot since we all know Megaroad-01 is gone.... and not coming back.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Hyperdrive: Non-instantaneous, prevents time dilation with some sort of device in the hyperdrive.

Warp: Non-instantaneous, prevents time dilation by warp physics. (AKA, somewhat ok FTL Abuse)

Slipspace: Non-instantaneous, prevents time dilation in some way I don't know.

BSG: Instantaneous, no time dilation.

Fold: Non-instantaneous, prevents time dilation by transferring into a sub-dimension, where time doesn't count. (Note, there is still some dilation, though not as severe as other cases.)

What does this mean? FTL is a physic-less plot device used to get places faster and create a problem for people. Thus, FTL sucks. On that note, FTL is necessary.

And ST has TOTALLY abused the hell out of Warp... AND Teleportation...

[Zinjo]

And ST has TOTALLY abused the hell out of Warp... AND Teleportation...

Wow, a entertainment TV show plays fast and loose with scientific principles...

Can things get any worse?

Edited February 12, 2009 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Can things get any worse?

Than Macross? Certainly! Than Star Trek? You'd be hard pressed

[SchizophrenicMC]

Than Macross? Certainly! Than Star Trek? You'd be hard pressed

*Cue Will Shatner voice*

You. Make me. Lol.... March.

[anime52k8]

In my high school physics class while talking about time dilation and such and decided that with FTL travel the two most likely ways to make it work are A. you bend space so that point A is now closer to Point B (kind of like how the space fold seemed to work in SDF:M) or that there's a dimension outside our own where the speed of light is greater to the point that you can travel faster than what we know as the speed of light and still not be even approaching relativistic speeds.

[SchizophrenicMC]

In my high school physics class while talking about time dilation and such and decided that with FTL travel the two most likely ways to make it work are A. you bend space so that point A is now closer to Point B (kind of like how the space fold seemed to work in SDF:M) or that there's a dimension outside our own where the speed of light is greater to the point that you can travel faster than what we know as the speed of light and still not be even approaching relativistic speeds.

A) Kinda Like Fold.

B ) Hyperspace and Slipspace.

That's why ships "Jump" into them: the portal opens and they boost the engines to full. In Halo, it's even more visible as a huge portal, similar to a MacF fold gate, opens. (Although you can see it in SW if you look closely)

However, Hyperspace is interwoven with real space, apparently. If a ship passes too close to a gravitational field, terminalized as a Mass Shadow in Star Wars, it pulls out so it won't smash into anything. That's why hyperspace isn't straight lines. That's the 2nd reason the Falcon moves faster: Its nav systems can plot more efficient routes. (Given, it has a .5 class h-drive, the 3rd-fastest in the galaxy. There are 2 faster ships than Solo's, and they're both owned by bounty hunters...)

I can't even explain slipspace...

[Letigre]

And what about wormholes, ala Farscape? (We'll ignore htech drives and starburst for the meantime..)

[Master Dex]

And what about wormholes, ala Farscape? (We'll ignore htech drives and starburst for the meantime..)

I don't know much about Farscape, but wormholes in general were first theorized by Einstein and most scientists today believe they can be naturally occurring, but it is not likely one could safely traverse one and live. Wormholes are not unlike the Type A FTL mentioned before, they are just naturally forming, and usually very random in most science fiction (it is theorized they'd be pretty random and unstable). Some theories put a connection between black holes and wormholes but generally they are treated as two very different things. Wormholes are held open by negative energy (also known as exotic energy) which is the direct opposite of positive energy. Positive energy includes pretty much any type of energy we know to exist or use (this is different from the concept of antimatter, that is just reversed charges) negative energy has yet to be officially documented.

[eugimon]

So here's the thing about FTL that I've always scratched my head on it's always manipulating the 4th dimension. Wormholes go "through" the 4th and let us pop somewhere else in the 3rd and "warp" lets us use the 4th dimension to completely manipulate the 3rd and move it around the ship.

So since FTL is fundamentally a manipulation of the 4th dimension, time travel must therefore also be possible once a viable an stable FTL drive is created, right? In fact, I would think the biggest navigational challenge in FTL is making sure you pop in the correct "when" and not so much in the correct "where".

[SchizophrenicMC]

So here's the thing about FTL that I've always scratched my head on it's always manipulating the 4th dimension. Wormholes go "through" the 4th and let us pop somewhere else in the 3rd and "warp" lets us use the 4th dimension to completely manipulate the 3rd and move it around the ship.

So since FTL is fundamentally a manipulation of the 4th dimension, time travel must therefore also be possible once a viable an stable FTL drive is created, right? In fact, I would think the biggest navigational challenge in FTL is making sure you pop in the correct "when" and not so much in the correct "where".

That's called Tesseraction. Manipulation of time to reach places isn't technically FTL, since you don't move. The universe warps around you.

Anyone who knows the book of which I speak gets a point.

[eugimon]

That's called Tesseraction. Manipulation of time to reach places isn't technically FTL, since you don't move. The universe warps around you.

Anyone who knows the book of which I speak gets a point.

all FTL is a manipulation of time and place. Nothing actually "moves" faster than light, well, at least not at this point in the universe, maybe before.

[Gubaba]

That's called Tesseraction. Manipulation of time to reach places isn't technically FTL, since you don't move. The universe warps around you.

Anyone who knows the book of which I speak gets a point.

I need to reread that book...it's been far too long.

[Killer Robot]

all FTL is a manipulation of time and place. Nothing actually "moves" faster than light, well, at least not at this point in the universe, maybe before.

I go with Futurama here: "That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208."

[SchizophrenicMC]

all FTL is a manipulation of time and place. Nothing actually "moves" faster than light, well, at least not at this point in the universe, maybe before.

Not in this dimension's physics, but in another dimension, like Hyperspace or Slipspace, the same laws may not apply.

I need to reread that book...it's been far too long.

Good book. Had to read it for English 2 years ago.

I go with Futurama here: "That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208."

Exactly. When a law contradicts you, change it!

[Keith]

Macross folds seem to be based roughly on 3 factors. The distance that needs to be traveled, the energy that can be gathered in the engines themselves, and the previous unknown (fold faults). These seem to be in direct relation to what type of fold is shown. Assumedly, if no fold faults are present, enough energy is gathered, and the distance is sufficiantly small enough. a fold can be done with no motion at all, and be relatively instananious. This is represented by the stock fold bubble all are familiar with. However if fold fautls are present, there isn't enough energy to cover the entirety of the distance, then the secondary type of fold, the one where we see ships actually moving into/through fold space, and the ships standard propulsion is used to navigate through that foldspace is used. That version obviously isn't instantanious due to the factors mentioned.

Macross has always adhered to those two specific types of folding, again with the only mystery factor being why it was necessary to use the ships engines to navigate in fold space for non-instantanious trips. Now that we have fold faults, we know the other part of that reason. Btut even as the Vajra have shown, longer distances still require some propulsion to help nagivate a not completely folded distnance.

As far as ST goes, pretty sure Voyager ruined any credibility that warp drive may have ever had. The imfamous voyager rear warp bump is still one of the most laughable forms of FTL ever shown.

[JB0]

That's called Tesseraction. Manipulation of time to reach places isn't technically FTL, since you don't move. The universe warps around you.

Anyone who knows the book of which I speak gets a point.

I'm just here for the point. I wasn't a fan of the book.

[BChoinski]

Macross folds seem to be based roughly on 3 factors. The distance that needs to be traveled, the energy that can be gathered in the engines themselves, and the previous unknown (fold faults).

Perhaps it's sort of like Saberhagen's FTL concept, where certain areas of space are "dirty" and make FTL more troublesome.

Thinking this way, in the original series there was no talk of faults, since out in the spiral arms (near Earth) there is less mass and stars, so less fold faults. With MF more towards the core there is more interference and thus more faults.

That would allow for a moderately in-canon reason why SDFM has no mention of it (by the Zentradi) and it's a constant topic for MF.

It's been a while since I saw M7, so I can't remember if they mentioned fold faults, but they may also have been further out.

[The Saint]

That would allow for a moderately in-canon reason why SDFM has no mention of it (by the Zentradi) and it's a constant topic for MF.

Considering the distance involved in SDFM, the faults were probably a non-issue. No one in SDFM was really observed/commented on folding more than a few light hours. The faults don't seem to come up in MF short of dozens or hundreds of light years. Bodol Zer might've came across some, depending where they were prior to attacking Earth, but who are they going to tell?

There were no fold faults impeding M7 because the show's incredible obsession with music Basara's ego spiritia consumed all of the writers' attention neutralized them. Thus they were a non-issue.

[BChoinski]

Considering the distance involved in SDFM, the faults were probably a non-issue. No one in SDFM was really observed/commented on folding more than a few light hours. The faults don't seem to come up in MF short of dozens or hundreds of light years. Bodol Zer might've came across some, depending where they were prior to attacking Earth, but who are they going to tell?

There were no fold faults impeding M7 because the show's incredible obsession with music Basara's ego spiritia consumed all of the writers' attention neutralized them. Thus they were a non-issue.

Didn't Max, Misa, Hikaru and Kakizaki feel the fold took hours but in reality it was days? Considering how Michael told Ranka that any trip to rescue Alto would also be days (though the actual subjective trip was hours), it seems to be somewhat similar.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Perhaps it's sort of like Saberhagen's FTL concept, where certain areas of space are "dirty" and make FTL more troublesome.

Thinking this way, in the original series there was no talk of faults, since out in the spiral arms (near Earth) there is less mass and stars, so less fold faults. With MF more towards the core there is more interference and thus more faults.

That would allow for a moderately in-canon reason why SDFM has no mention of it (by the Zentradi) and it's a constant topic for MF.

It's been a while since I saw M7, so I can't remember if they mentioned fold faults, but they may also have been further out.

Like in Star Wars: Mass Shadows can kill a jump. That's why they take so long to start. The nav computer has to figure the safest, quickest route to the destination from possibly halfway across a whole galaxy. Finding a way around any source of gravity is a time-consuming process. Further, there's a disturbance at the edge of the galaxy that prevents hyperspace jumps out.

Didn't Max, Misa, Hikaru and Kakizaki feel the fold took hours but in reality it was days? Considering how Michael told Ranka that any trip to rescue Alto would also be days (though the actual subjective trip was hours), it seems to be somewhat similar.

Yes. I think the actual number was like 10 days in 1 hour or something... I forget. I need to watch SDFM again...

And, I meant the first person to name the book gets a point. If you can't name it, no point.

[Gubaba]

And, I meant the first person to name the book gets a point. If you can't name it, no point.

Oh, come ON. Everybody and his mother has read "A Wrinkle in Time."

I thought you were just being funny with all the coyness...

[Dynaman]

Yes. I think the actual number was like 10 days in 1 hour or something... I forget. I need to watch SDFM again...

I always like to think that is what really happened to the Megaroad-01, bad Jump calculation and ooops, there went 50+ years.

(Which if I'm calculating right means it's 76 days or so for those doing the fold)

Yeah, yeah, no cookie for me...

[BChoinski]

I always like to think that is what really happened to the Megaroad-01, bad Jump calculation and ooops, there went 50+ years.

(Which if I'm calculating right means it's 76 days or so for those doing the fold)

Yeah, yeah, no cookie for me...

It's doubtful that they would go this route, keeping the legendary mystery intact, but it does allow for Misa, Minmay and everyone to be found alive and in their prime. :}

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, some people haven't... Jeez, Gubaba...

"Aw, shnike, we miscalculated our fold distance. There went 47 years... Oh, hey, protoculture planet... Is that... IS THAT A GIANT INSE-"

-Last Transmission of Megaroad-1 Fleet ()

[Keith]

Actually, Macross 7 may have shown us the first real instance of a fold fault. When Diamond Force uses the fold boosters to catch up to City 7, they have a pretty ruff ride.

[sketchley]

Actually, Macross 7 may have shown us the first real instance of a fold fault. When Diamond Force uses the fold boosters to catch up to City 7, they have a pretty ruff ride.

I believe that's due to them exceeding the distance that the fold boosters are able to travel (not certified to travel more than 20 light years).

[Keith]

I believe that's due to them exceeding the distance that the fold boosters are able to travel (not certified to travel more than 20 light years).

If that were the case, they'd have just dropped out of fold.

[miles316]

I was under the impression that the Vajra left their planet for 'parts unknown' after Frontier freed their queen from Grace and landed the planet. Ai-kun just stuck around with Ranka.

Wouldn't that be quite an upset to the 'status quo' of the whole colony-fleet thing, if the Macross universe suddenly developed instantaneous fold technology? That would make all the fleets moot, and would probably really eliminate a lot of story possibilities...

Speaking of the vajira I was looking at line art for Macross zero and frontier and the anti-UN transformable mech OCTOS resembles the large vajira bio-mech. Could the anti-UN have found a dead vajira crashed on earth and based a mech on it and even reverse engineering a FOLD drive from the FOLD quarts. I ask this because in the original Macross when the ship stops on Mars one of the bridge bunnies tells the captain that the anti-UN forces had destroyed the colony on Mars how would the anti-UN be able to mount a attack on another planet after they lost the war. It would probably take months to reach mars even with a reaction engine I doubt the UN would allow them to launch a mission to the outer planets.

[Gubaba]

Speaking of the vajira I was looking at line art for Macross zero and frontier and the anti-UN transformable mech OCTOS resembles the large vajira bio-mech. Could the anti-UN have found a dead vajira crashed on earth and based a mech on it and even reverse engineering a FOLD drive from the FOLD quarts. I ask this because in the original Macross when the ship stops on Mars one of the bridge bunnies tells the captain that the anti-UN forces had destroyed the colony on Mars how would the anti-UN be able to mount a attack on another planet after they lost the war. It would probably take months to reach mars even with a reaction engine I doubt the UN would allow them to launch a mission to the outer planets.

Short answer: No.

(I mean, I suppose anything's possible, and we know from the MacZero BD release that there IS some Fold Quartz on earth, but I don't think anyone knew what it could be used for. And if a Vajra had landed on earth before, wouldn't everyone have been less surprised when they ran across them again in Frontier? And why do you think the Anti-UN attacked Mars Base Salla AFTER the war was over? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to have attacked DURING the war?)

[miles316]

Short answer: No.

(I mean, I suppose anything's possible, and we know from the MacZero BD release that there IS some Fold Quartz on earth, but I don't think anyone knew what it could be used for. And if a Vajra had landed on earth before, wouldn't everyone have been less surprised when they ran across them again in Frontier? And why do you think the Anti-UN attacked Mars Base Salla AFTER the war was over? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to have attacked DURING the war?)

Did they ever explain how the Anti-UN forces managed to attack Mars in any of the novels or was the Anti-UN used as a scapegoat to explain the unexplainable loss of the mars colony. I was not talking about the vajira landing on earth but of one crashing in the past maybe running in to the zentrady and being shot down years before the crash of the macross in 99 and found by some government.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Short answer = no. Welcome to Macross World, Miles.

As a general rule of thumb, I'd find it unwise to disagree with Gubaba. As one of the few people here who actually knows Japanese, he has a firsthand source of info.

Secondly, There is fold quartz on Earth. It's probably more related to AFOS than the Vajra.

With active thrust, the likes of which can be produced by reaction engines, it could take as little as a few weeks to reach Mars. The only reason it takes months now is because there's a set amount of thrust applied at the beginning and none is added. If you keep adding it, your speed keeps increasing. Etcetera.

Then, on your Zentradi note, I doubt, even with DYRL? as anything to go by, the Zentradi had ever been to Earth. Even in DYRL? it was only PC.

Thus, Vajra couldn't have been shot down by them. Further, I seriously doubt the Vajra had ever been to Earth, save for maybe "...hundreds of millions of years..." ago. (Ranka, MF25)

I think it's as simple as the Anti-UN destroying Sara Base.

[Gubaba]

Did they ever explain how the Anti-UN forces managed to attack Mars in any of the novels or was the Anti-UN used as a scapegoat to explain the unexplainable loss of the mars colony.

Hmmm...sounds like you smell a conspiracy here. I don't think the attack on Salla was ever elaborated upon. Riber went there in 2004, it was attacked some time after, and then Misa blows the whole thing up in 2009.

There may be something in the short novel, "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences," which I'm currently (slowly) translating, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Let's face it: Mars Base Salla is a VERY minor plot point in SDFM, and so any idea that the Anti-UN is somehow NOT responsible, and that's there's some kind of cover-up, is giving the whole thing more thought than it probably deserves.

I was not talking about the vajira landing on earth but of one crashing in the past maybe running in to the zentrady and being shot down years before the crash of the macross in 99 and found by some government.

Again, anything's possible, but wouldn't someone (Zentradi, human, anyone) keep records of finding a Vajra...?

[miles316]

Hmmm...sounds like you smell a conspiracy here. I don't think the attack on Salla was ever elaborated upon. Riber went there in 2004, it was attacked some time after, and then Misa blows the whole thing up in 2009.

There may be something in the short novel, "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences," which I'm currently (slowly) translating, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Let's face it: Mars Base Salla is a VERY minor plot point in SDFM, and so any idea that the Anti-UN is somehow NOT responsible, and that's there's some kind of cover-up, is giving the whole thing more thought than it probably deserves.

Again, anything's possible, but wouldn't someone (Zentradi, human, anyone) keep records of finding a Vajra...?

Did the Anti-UN give up after the events in zero and become the UN's bitch?