Matrix Spoiler Emporium

[Keith]

And yes, I know Imporium is spelling with an "I," but I just woke up, so shut up.

As Roy so nicely posted:

Who cares about spoilers.

Who cares about the Matrix.

I don't so tell me some spoilers.

What's bad what's good?

Give it to me with spoilers included.

Hmm, which moderator do I listen to??? Perhaps the one that let's me post spoilers!

My biggest beef was the ending itself. While I'm "still" trying to figure out just how Neo took out Smith(s) (did letting himself be obsorbed isolate Smith's code so he could destroy him? How did every Smith copy turn back to normal after?), I'd love to know just what the machines did with Neo as they were carrying him off. Were they going to fix his eyes? Absorb him into their conciousness? WHAT!

I personally believe that there will be another "sequel," perhaps not under the Matrix title (as it'd be extremely weak to continue something when you say you're going to conclude it) that will follow in the footseps of Megazone 23 Prt III. Think about it. The whole premise was that Shogo went to face the machines on Earth, was absorbed by them, and became their tool. In turn, was also used to further control of the humans even though they were outside of the Megazone. This sounds suspiciously similar to what's going on at the end of the Matrix. Neo saves humanity, the computers too in the process, and despite some opinions, is most definately still "alive" afterwords. We see the machines carrying him off to what could easily be the same fate as Yahagi Shogo.

Implication perhaps being that a later movie could take place sometime after the Matrix ended (with Neo either being cryogenically frozen, or his conciosuness fully transfered into the machines), and have a new "hero" wind up having to face off against Neo. This too would explain the need to kill off Trinity, as one of the major annoyances of the Megazone series being why have Shogo go through all that, have his girlfriend killed & then ressurected by Eve, just to have Shogo end up the way he did. Killing Trinity solved that problem right there.

I've also heard some complain that things such as how he was able to control the Sentinels & such wasn't explained, even though it was. The implication overall seems to be that machines have souls, just as humans have code (that's why in the Matrix everyone appears as code, but outside of it, Neo after losing his eyes can see the machines souls). Seems an adiquate enough explanation, which also covers the why's & how's of Smith being able to transfer into a living body.

To round up though, I think the things which bugged me most were the small but important things that weren't answered. What happens to the Matrix now that everyone will be released? Will the keep it around to support rogue, failing, abandoned, etc programs? What's the purpose in that, as there don't appear to be anywehre near enough of them to support a society. And even then, they'd be livng in a pale imitation of a human existence. Why not give them android bodies? Speaking of bodies, are the machines going to be kind enough to rehabilitate everyone they release from the Matrix? Or will they just dump their atrophied asses in Zion?

And while the masses of machines forming a face was a bit cool, just who was the "top" machine? Overall, they still seemed pretty angry at humans, and even if the war is "over," the conflict between the two sides is far from resolved. The people of Zion aren't necessarily ready to stop fighting, though they're in no condition too, I doubt all stupidity & aggressions on that side will stop. Especially with a new onslought of people coming that are freshly unplugged. For that matter, where will everyone get food? While there are still "blue skies" above the surface, everything blow is still pretty jacked up. The same of course goes for the machines, I doubt everyone on that side will be ready to cease aggressions either, especially since their main source of power is now cut off.

Ok, discuss!

Edited November 6, 2003 by Keith

[EXO]

I guess the fact that I didn't like the first Matrix, or thought it was the most original movie that everyone heralded it to be, allowed me to enjoy the pure fun aspect of last two installments as much as I did. I mean that both as far as story and effects wise. Bullet time was used in the GAP jump and Jive commercials long before it was coined "bullet time". The only difference was that they allowed a micro second of a delay between the shot of each camera. The story as we all know parallels many "virtual world" type movies/anime before it. The central hero vs. the machine that runs it all. As keith said Megazone. Tron. Maybe even that old CG show reboot. Despite looking cool, I was not all that impressed. The second installment was a lot better for me. If they were going to run me thru a typical story they better blow me away with some good visuals. Once I got beyond that fact I thoroughly enjoyed the characters and the events they were put thru. The same goes for Revolutions.

If I took it seriously, these would be the questions I would be asking:

All those trials and tribulations and they were back to square one? Morpheus's goal was to set the people free from the Matrix. All of them. I assume that the destruction of the Matrix was part of that goal. Did we get there? Nope. I can't believe his reaction at the end was that he was satisfied with what resulted. In the end all he got was Neo and Trinity, and everyone else he knew from the first film, killed. (Yes I believe he was dead as far as his body and mind was concerned.)

Agent Smith was turned into the main bad guy? Yeah he was bad. He was deliciously bad... but they turned him into the common enemy? Cop out! That's were the W. Bros. comic book roots seep thru in the most obvious way. All crossovers begin with two forces fighting, then they find a more imminent danger to them both and resolve their differences in able to over come the "new" bad guy... lame.

So they're going to release everyone that wants to leave the Matrix. So what? Are they going to handing out blue pills? (or was it red?) People don't want to leave the Matrix. I'm sure Zion isn't a 24 hour party place. You think that blonde in the restaurant would want to leave her virtual posh life to be relocated in the gutters?

Yeah... all these humongous plot holes are apparent. If you stand in line with your money in hand and you still don't know what to expect then you deserve to be let down. There was already 2 movies before it, that was just like it! Don't bother.

Other than that it was great "pass the popcorn" fun.

As far as the "top machine" i don't think there was any. The face symbolized that the collective was part of the greater whole. There was a lot of that in the movie. Just like how the sentinels attacked in streams, almost never individually. You'd have to destroy the a great part of it to get a crippling effect.

[Uxi]

Neo and Smith are you yin and yang to each other. He saw that the Oracle was still in Smith despite copying himself over her when she called him Neo instead of "Mr Anderson." So he knew he would still be in Smith if he let himself get copied... thereby destroying them both since they were direct opposites.

And I didn't get that everyone was just going to be unplugged. Those that want to stay (like Cypher) can stay. Those that don't will have to be gradually woken... still I'll bet they can produce a whole load of that goop seen in the first movie. Just a matter of the machiens helping them make machines to process stuff... presumably there could be algaes and mosses that would be easy enough... and... er... can a person live off a cockroach? They still have to be around.

[Roy Focker]

I haven't even saw the second one.

So 'most' people are free at the end or have the option to leave. Doesn't that mean the machines will die? Aren't people like batteries for the machines?

So machines carry Neo off in the end. Maybe they intend to make love to him.

[ayoung]

I enjoyed the movie, but that doesn’t mean much coming form me I’m able to find enjoyment in just about any movie. I would give the movie a perfect 10 except for the fact I think the final fight scene was way to long. It could have been just as good if Neo and Smith didn’t fight in the air (My opinion). I think at sometime it worked, but at other times Keanu Reeves acting is just horrible. The positive side of Keanu acting is it adds some comedy to the movie. After evaluating all aspects of the movie I would give it a 9.7, but again I’m easily pleased.

I will answer the questions as I understand them. Neo was able to defeat Agent Smith by sacrificing himself. The Oracle said Neo and Agent Smith balanced the equation. This makes sense because over the three movies Neo would advance his strengths and then Agent Smith would evolve. If Neo dies Smith no longer has purpose and seizes to exist. I’m not sure why the copies of Smith turned back, but I would guess he was just a string of code inside each program (person). When Smith died his string of code inside everyone became obsolete (thinking about it in a program mind the main method was no longer calling the field) in the other copies of him and returned to the original form. I don’t want to go too far into depth about Neo being carried off, but I think Neo is supposed to symbolize Christ. Christ sacrificed himself for humanity just like Neo did in the movie. I’m not very religious so I might get this part wrong, but if I remember correct Jesus was carried off by angles into the sky after he died just like Neo was taken off by the robots. Please tell me your opinions on what I just said. I don’t think there will be another Matrix unless someone gets greedy. I do think Neo is dead at the end, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he is resurrected.

I’m not sure what will happen to the Matrix, but I don’t think they will take everyone out because not everyone is ready to give up their surroundings. I have mixed feelings about this because I think it might symbolize how fake the world is. This link might explain what I’m trying to say a little better. Link

I won’t comment on the face of the robots to much yet, but EXO explanation sounds good for me. I will have to watch Reloaded and Revolution again, but I think the architect in side the Matrix and the head honcho of the robots might be linked.

[Myriad]

Neo suckered Smith in by allowing Smith to absorb him. Them getting closer would give Neo an answer on how to really defeat Smith. What the answer was though?.....Plot Hole!

Those who want to leave the Matrix will be allowed to leave. Meaning: Those who figure out what is going on and don't like it will not be agent fodder like before. Remember, Neo realized something was screwy in the first movie and was close to solving the puzzle. The agents were also hot on his tail.

How could he control the machines? Hell if I know. Maybe his DNA is similiar to the DNA of the Matrix creator. Maybe he is a clone. Who knows! All the other chosen ones looked like him.......... Plot hole...... Neo was taken off and recycled into lubricants at the end.

Peace won't last. People are jackasses.........

I thought the movie was okay. Not great though. I won't take the wife to see it this weekend. We will watch Harry Potter on HBO instead.

Will I buy the DVD?......No...... I will watch the thing on HBO when it gets there.

[Max Jenius]

And yes, I know Imporium is spelling with an "I," but I just woke up, so shut up.

Its spelled with an E. You were right the first time.

a. It is pretty obvious that Neo is gone. I'd put money on it. Neo and Smith annihilated eachother like an atom of hydrogen and anti-hydrogen colliding.

b. The machines REALLY have no need for humans... especially since it was shown that the sun still shines and the IDIOT machines didn't think to build solar collectors above the cloud cover. I think that they're sincere in seeing that while they could kill off humanity at will(as stated by the architect and oracle), they will not because The Source and Neo made an agreement and because of the fact stated above.

c. Disconnection from the Matrix will not happen instantly of course. I imagine that now that resources and effort aren't being diverted to controlling inhabitants of Zion, the humans and the machines can work together to help clear up the sky and possibly salvage what is left of the ecosystem. In any case, the Matrix now will probably serve as a buffer to 'come home to' and relax when one is not helping rebuild a human city/terraforming.

d. The Christ analogies in the matrix are fairly obvious, but martyrdom isn't exclusive to Christianity. Keep that in mind. However, there are other ties to the bible simply because it is ingrained in Western Culture.

e. Neo's ability to see the machines stems from The Anomoly's connection with The Source. He is able to see everything connected to it; the machine race. It could be implied that he was able to see their 'souls,' however this goes out the window when he's able to see power conduits, connections etc... which clearly have none.

I liked the movie a lot. I like Reloaded a lot more now too. The action, while hard to follow at times due to waves of squiddy, was intense and satisfying. The 10 people I went with all left with a smile on their face.

Now what I want to know is where the Twins went? Did they just fly away at the end of Reloaded? The way they were hyping them prior to Reloaded's release, I thought they'd have a bigger part to play.

Overall I like the trilogy. Kind of a cross between Terminator, Dune, and Superman.

[Mr March]

My biggest beef was the ending itself. While I'm "still" trying to figure out just how Neo took out Smith(s) (did letting himself be obsorbed isolate Smith's code so he could destroy him? How did every Smith copy turn back to normal after?)

The oracle said that Neo and Smith were two sides of an equation trying to balance themselves. Neo was the true anomaly and Smith was that part of the Matrix trying to correct itself. When Smith absorbed Neo, he was really sealing his own doom since Smith's only purpose was to balance the equation..even though he didn't know it or really understand it. Once that happened, he was self deleted to serve that equation.

[myk]

So machines carry Neo off in the end. Maybe they intend to make love to him.

Now you're talking! Wait, that didn't come out right.... <_<

[CHAN]

All I can say is, I am left with more questions then answers at the end of revolution.

Can someone tell me how the heck Zion generates power when the machines needed humans to generate power? Does Zion know something that the machines don't? Coz if the machines allowed all their batteries to go free, where the heck are they going to get power?

Also if you watched Reloaded, there was the scene when Morpheius's ship was approaching Zion and they had to get clearance from the control center. The people in the control center looked like they were from some other future movie, every thing was super hightech, everybody dressed in pristine white uniforms and they even had virtual keyboards and screens on which to work. Nothing else in Zion looked anything remotely like the decor in that command center. What the heck was goin on there, those techies in the command center were dressed and equipped better then anybody else in the whole of Zion.

And if the trainman who created the train station to link the machine world to the matrix is able to be god at the train station that he created and smite Neo if he wanted to. Why can't the Machine god/Architect who created the matrix smite both Neo and Smith to get rid of the problem instead of relying on Neo to do it?

Finally if Smith evolved to counter Neo. How can 1 agent smith beat Neo? Wouldn't Neo be as powerful as all of the Smiths combined? Otherwise what kind of balance is Smith? Or was Neo just pretending to be as weak as 1 agent Smith? (Yes I know Neo allowed himself to be merged with Smith but you have to admit, they were both pretty evenly matched, or am I missing something here.)

Can someone please share their enlightenment with me??

[madmacks]

how did neo know where to kiss trinity when trinity was dying?i understand he saw the other dude because smith was in him but trinity was a pure hot blooded woman with a great body. i was hoping he would end up kissing her eyeball as it would be more realistic and provide an inappropriate perplexing moment of comic relief.

[Barpharanges]

@CHAN

I can answer the "white room" control center question. Just before that scene, you see the real control room, with around 8 people seated with eyes closed and jacked in. They were within a mini-matrix like construct built by Zion.

[ArchVile]

Can someone tell me how the heck Zion generates power when the machines needed humans to generate power? Does Zion know something that the machines don't? Coz if the machines allowed all their batteries to go free, where the heck are they going to get power?

Also if you watched Reloaded, there was the scene when Morpheius's ship was approaching Zion and they had to get clearance from the control center. The people in the control center looked like they were from some other future movie, every thing was super hightech, everybody dressed in pristine white uniforms and they even had virtual keyboards and screens on which to work. Nothing else in Zion looked anything remotely like the decor in that command center. What the heck was goin on there, those techies in the command center were dressed and equipped better then anybody else in the whole of Zion.

1. I assume they generate their power from the earth's heat.

2. If you notice the people who are in that room are plugged in and are in a construct/ traffic control system.

[Max Jenius]

And if the trainman who created the train station to link the machine world to the matrix is able to be god at the train station that he created and smite Neo if he wanted to. Why can't the Machine god/Architect who created the matrix smite both Neo and Smith to get rid of the problem instead of relying on Neo to do it?

Finally if Smith evolved to counter Neo. How can 1 agent smith beat Neo? Wouldn't Neo be as powerful as all of the Smiths combined? Otherwise what kind of balance is Smith? Or was Neo just pretending to be as weak as 1 agent Smith? (Yes I know Neo allowed himself to be merged with Smith but you have to admit, they were both pretty evenly matched, or am I missing something here.)

The Architect and the Source had no control over both of them, they were anomalies in the system. The train existed between both worlds, neither reality nor the matrix so the same rules naturally don't apply.

Smith?

Neo is "The One," Smith is "The Many."

Who knows, he was doing an awesome job. They were evenly matched.

[Aegis!]

I´ll try to give my opinion on as many things as possible :

Can someone tell me how the heck Zion generates power when the machines needed humans to generate power? Does Zion know something that the machines don't?

I believe the most probable explanation to this is the fact that humans are closer to the core of the planet hence at reach of huge sources of thermal energy which in turn can be turned into electricity. From then on humans can do pretty much whatever they like with the only problem that they lack natural resources.

if the machines allowed all their batteries to go free, where the heck are they going to get power?

The machines only said they would free those who want to be freed and since all of those who are connected to the Matrix are pretty much unaware of their situation they will never be given the chance to be unpluged, so unless someone convinces them of the reality they won´t even know they´re on the Matrix , and given the fact that almost every chance the people of Zion had to connect to the Matrix was destroyed in the last stand I doubt they´ll free ¨everyone¨.

And even if they did , wouldn´t they have some sort of advanced fusion energy generator by now ? if they have all that infrastructure I assume the machines are pretty capable of being independant from their bio-batteries ; this may sound lame but I think they just mantained the matrix as a way of keeping humans under control and saving resources , of course they could´ve killed all humans , but for that they would´ve had to reach Zion first , which they eventually did...numerous times...

What the heck was goin on there, those techies in the command center were dressed and equipped better then anybody else in the whole of Zion. 

mmmm , I thought it was pretty clear that they were inside some sort of virtual control room , like one of those trainning simulators they had onboard the ships , otherwise how would they have that level of illumination within a room while Zion itself was a rotting black hole?

And if the trainman who created the train station to link the machine world to the matrix is able to be god at the train station that he created and smite Neo if he wanted to. Why can't the Machine god/Architect who created the matrix smite both Neo and Smith to get rid of the problem instead of relying on Neo to do it?

Because Neo and Smith grew beyond the controls of the Matrix , and the train station wasn´t exactly the Matrix , it was like the limbo , where Smith/Neo´s powers were irrelevant. The ¨ONE¨ was ¨designed¨ to be like a catalyst so the Matrix could upgrade itself to be less prone to let people percieve they were plugged to it , so Neo´s powers only had an effect within the Matrix and towards the Machines, this is suppossed to be a never ending cycle hence the existence of the past ¨ONEs¨ and the repetitive destruction of Zion.

The machines REALLY have no need for humans... especially since it was shown that the sun still shines and the IDIOT machines didn't think to build solar collectors above the cloud cover. I think that they're sincere in seeing that while they could kill off humanity at will(as stated by the architect and oracle), they will not because The Source and Neo made an agreement and because of the fact stated above.

No they don´t need humans at all but they can´t get through the clouded skies either because they would attrack a lot of lighting, you need to watch carefully the scene where Neo and Trin get through the clouds as they shot down the power of their ship while all the Sentinels fall like dead pigeons.

The Christ analogies in the matrix are fairly obvious, but martyrdom isn't exclusive to Christianity. Keep that in mind. However, there are other ties to the bible simply because it is ingrained in Western Culture.

Actually , the whole scene where Neo´s corpse is taken by the Machines is really a mix refference of Christ (all the self sacrifice and fisical wounds contrasting all his super powers ) and King Arthur who was taken by the maidens to Avalon where he would rest and heal until war started again, this can be understood by analysing the open ending of the film itself. at least that made sense to me.

[Max Jenius]

No they don´t need humans at all but they can´t get through the clouded skies either because they would attrack a lot of lighting, you need to watch carefully the scene where Neo and Trin get through the clouds as they shot down the power of their ship while all the Sentinels fall like dead pigeons.

They can't get through the lightning? Please. I'm sure they could think of something. If they can survive a nuke, they can think of a way around lightning.

Air-De-Ionization?

[isamu]

Just got back from seeing it. I thought it was really good. Not great, but really good. The effects were mind boggling! But I must say, I was dissapointed with the fact that:

Neo only won the battle, but not the war. He had to rely on help from both the machines and the oracle to beat Agent Smith. I was really expecting to him to kick both the machines and Agent Smith's ass, by turning into some kind of supreme being with some ridiculous powers we hadn't seen before. But that didn't happen. Instead, Neo got his ass handed to him by Smith and if it wasn't for the Sentinel Master and the oracle, Smith would've continued to clobber neo and rip him a new one.

Also, there simply wasn't enough hand to hand combat in this one. Having Neo in only ONE freakin fight in the whole movie was just lame. The Zion battle was kick ass though, and the flying sequence with Jada and Morpheus was great. But I dunno, just wanted a little more martial arts and hand to hand stuff. Plus, there were no new villians. Just the same ole Smith and the Merivingian. I would've liked to have been introduced to a variety of more baddies. Kinda like another duo of dreadlocked twins or whatever.

Anyway, I personally feel Reloaded was slightly better, with part 1 being the best. I also strongly feel this is NOT the last Matrix movie...I am certain the studios, as well as the fans will DEMAND another sequel. We simply don't know Neo's fate. That question must be answered.

Bring on "THE MATRIX: RESURRECTION" :P

[Sundown]

Actually , the whole scene where Neo´s corpse is taken by the Machines is really a mix refference of Christ (all the self sacrifice and fisical wounds contrasting all his super powers ) and King Arthur who was taken by the maidens to Avalon where he would rest and heal until war started again, this can be understood by analysing the open ending of the film itself. at least that made sense to me.

Yeah, Christ references are pretty obvious and prominent in the end scene. When Neo finishes off Agent Smith and the scene cuts back to the face made of sentinels, the "voice" says, "It is done."

This parallels Jesus's uttering, "It is finished," right before he dies, redeeming mankind in the book of John.

And there's other parallels like Neo's pose and the darkness over the whole land during this cruxificion scene of sorts.

-Al

[Sundown]

They can't get through the lightning? Please. I'm sure they could think of something. If they can survive a nuke, they can think of a way around lightning.

Air-De-Ionization?

If they could survive a nuke, then the first thing they should be able to survive is the EMP blast. But hey. Shrug.

-Al

[Jemstone]

No they don´t need humans at all but they can´t get through the clouded skies either because they would attrack a lot of lighting, you need to watch carefully the scene where Neo and Trin get through the clouds as they shot down the power of their ship while all the Sentinels fall like dead pigeons.

They can't get through the lightning? Please. I'm sure they could think of something. If they can survive a nuke, they can think of a way around lightning.

Air-De-Ionization?

Giant rubbers, my friend. They would fit over the sentinels like a glove. Double layer for extra protection.

of course there is the fact they could harness and use lightning to freaking CHARGE them up but whatever.....

Edited November 7, 2003 by Jemstone

[Max Jenius]

They can't get through the lightning? Please. I'm sure they could think of something. If they can survive a nuke, they can think of a way around lightning.

Air-De-Ionization?

If they could survive a nuke, then the first thing they should be able to survive is the EMP blast. But hey. Shrug.

-Al

The occurrence of EMP is strongly dependent on the altitude of burst. It can be significant for surface or low altitude bursts (below 4,000 m); it is very significant for high altitude bursts (above 30,000 m); but it is not significant for altitudes between these extremes.

[Jolly Rogers]

All I can say is, I am left with more questions then answers at the end of revolution.

Finally if Smith evolved to counter Neo. How can 1 agent smith beat Neo? Wouldn't Neo be as powerful as all of the Smiths combined? Otherwise what kind of balance is Smith? Or was Neo just pretending to be as weak as 1 agent Smith? (Yes I know Neo allowed himself to be merged with Smith but you have to admit, they were both pretty evenly matched, or am I missing something here.)

LOL, I know exactly what you mean. I was feeling kind of disappointed with the open-ended ending that left more questions than answers that we started with, but the cool thing is it provides a great basis for discussion.

The Smith that beat Neo is "Super Agent Smith" because he was a clone with the Oracle's power. You can see that even the Smith that copied himself onto the Oracle was afarid of the new copy.

The last thing said by The Architect (asking Oracle how long she things this peace would last) seems to indicate that this is nothing more the latest cycle of The One returning to The Source. The machines gave Neo a perceived choice - return to The Source like a good boy, or do what you fancy and try to save Zion your way. Neo went his own way in Reloaded but by the end of Revolutions we find out that the machines rigged the chain of events (having Agent Smith able to cancel him out no matter how powerful he gets) so Neo has to return to The Source no matter what.

What I don't get is that a lot of the things Smith said seem to contradict. At the beginning of Reloaded, 2 Smiths were talking about how things were just happening as before, then one of them reminded the other "well not exactly", implying that in the previous versions of The Matrix, something similar happened although not exactly the same way. By the end of Revolutions, we find out that Smith beats Neo every time, if he knew this was gonna happen, why does he bust his balls trying to go after Neo and the others when he knew that fate was preordained and that he was gonna kick Neo's ass no matter what?

[EXO]

What I don't get is that a lot of the things Smith said seem to contradict.  At the beginning of Reloaded, 2 Smiths were talking about how things were just happening as before, then one of them reminded the other "well not exactly", implying that in the previous versions of The Matrix, something similar happened although not exactly the same way.  By the end of Revolutions, we find out that Smith beats Neo every time, if he knew this was gonna happen, why does he bust his balls trying to go after Neo and the others when he knew that fate was preordained and that he was gonna kick Neo's ass no matter what?

In the previous instances of the Matrix, there were no multiple Agent Smiths. That was the thing that was different from before. In this instance Neo, as the anomaly was far more powerful. This was made evident when the Merovingian noticed that Neo coud stop bullets. "You have skills." The showdown between Agent Smith has also never happened before. The predecessors never got passed the Architect. When given the choice (curious that the Architect gave him a choice, seemed like that was the Oracle's job) predecessors always chose to go with the 7 men and 16 women route and rebuilt Zion. (I don't really understand that number, 23 is a prime number but if you ad Neo that's 24... but I like the odds, 2 girls for every boy... )

Edited November 7, 2003 by >EXO<

[Jolly Rogers]

The showdown between Agent Smith has also never happened before. The predecessors never got passed the Architect. When given the choice (curious that the Architect gave him a choice, seemed like that was the Oracle's job) predecessors always chose to go with the 7 men and 16 women route and rebuilt Zion. (I don't really understand that number, 23 is a prime number but if you ad Neo that's 24... but I like the odds, 2 girls for every boy... )

If the showdown with Agent Smith never happened before, why did he have memories of it happening before as he tries to recollect the exact detail when he beats Neo?

You are assuming that the Architect told Neo the full truth, not half truth or minced words regarding his predecessors.

[Keith]

The Smith's predictions in the final battle had nothing to do with anything that happened prior, it had to do with have the Oracle's insight into the future (which was a literal psychic power.....hey, machiens have souls here, they can have psychic powers too!). This is assumedly the first time that the conflict has ever gone so far.

As for Neo dying at the end, I still say he was alive. After taking out Smith(s), they show him still able to see machine souls (and I say they're souls because despite also seeing conduits & such, just what passes through, energy? or programs . I believe they're taking Neo away to become like Ong in Megazone 23 Prt III, a controlled part of the machine that will have to face off against a new hero in a future installment.

I don't however believe in that whole returning to the source crap. Humans can't return to the source, because they didn't originate there (only machines & A.I.'s do). Perhaps that was the way of the machines to quanitfy what happened, but it only stands to reason that every so often a human would be able to "think outside the box," and realize their own control over the Matrix. Neo wasn't a re-incarnation of any of the "one's" that lived before, just a repeat of the same anomoly. In order to be a return of that same code from the source, the machines would have to implant a soul into an individual on purpose, also making Neo an A.I. like Smith. That's just too convoluted.

On the same note, just because Smith was as powerful as Neo, he wasn't a literal opposite force requiring Neo to die to take out, given the nature of the havoc he wreaked, and the fact that the machines seemed to have even less power over him than they did Neo, it stands to reason that he was a true anomoly of the system (not just a hyper aware human like Neo), which evovled into a virus choosing to destroy everything. The problem Smith posed was a much more dangerous one than Neo ever could be, and its highly unlikely the machines would let that occur repeatedly.

As for what happens after, considering the large degree that the machines seem to hate humans (wouldn't it have been cool if Bender turned out to be the main A.I.?, heh), it's doubtful they'd be ready to work together to save the environement, or work together period. Humans would be just as banned from the machine city as they were before. And I saw nothing about letting people who chose to, to remain in the Matrix. All they said was "everyone would be released," which means no humans would be attched to the Matrix. Which means there'd be a shitload of angry people ripped out of a comfy existence, & forced into a battle with what's left of nature for survival. Considering the machines gave the people of Zion what little they had to survive on, would they also be kind enough to give them resources to sustain the larger number of people? Or would they just dump their atrophied asses there & say "you wanted it, you deal with it."

It would be a prime time however to show them documentation on "The Last Rennisaunce," just so people are aware that they're the ones who made the mistake to begin with.

All things ocnsidered, all I expect from the W's is a rehash of Megazone 23 Prt III. Humans living in a somewhat distant future, in a penned off industrial city, perhaps underground with a false sky, perhaps build above the clouds, who knows. They will realize that they are still to some degree under machine rule, be it only to make sure they stay penned up in their "eden" like city. A final "one" will arise, he'll face off against the machines with the help of the Oracle, and be confrunted with a very old Neo being kept alive by the machines as a defense mechanism.

[NSJ23]

If the showdown with Agent Smith never happened before, why did he have memories of it happening before as he tries to recollect the exact detail when he beats Neo?

Because Smith has the Oracles memories. He had seen it before because she had that vison. That's how Neo new how to beat him. Neo asked her if she knew how it would end and she said that it didn't matter, She never said she didn't see it.

Edited November 7, 2003 by NSJ23

[Guvava]

Keith makes some good points. First, the new hero may be related to the little girl they call "last exile", what was up with that? Second, the Ws explained that in the original script the humans were used as a mass computing device instead of a powersource. That would make more sense to me here, since it's obvious that the machines can come up with alternative sources of power, they needed the humans as a source of consciousness or a connection to life. That would make the whole soul thing make sense. It is disappointing that they continued to talk in riddles in this movie instead of simply tying things up, but it was fun to see it at the IMAX (and for free! ) .

[Jolly Rogers]

If the showdown with Agent Smith never happened before, why did he have memories of it happening before as he tries to recollect the exact detail when he beats Neo?

Because Smith has the Oracles memories. He had seen it before because she had that vison. That's how Neo new how to beat him. Neo asked her if she knew how it would end and she said that it didn't matter, She never said she didn't see it.

I'll need to see that scene again to be sure, but wasn't it Smith who picked up Neo and said something to the effect of "this is where I beat you and say..."? Doesn't sound like something that the Oracle would say.

[yellowlightman]

I'll need to see that scene again to be sure, but wasn't it Smith who picked up Neo and said something to the effect of "this is where I beat you and say..."? Doesn't sound like something that the Oracle would say.

What tipped Neo off was when Agent Smith "Everything with a beginning must end." or whatever that lousy tagline was, that the Oracle told him earlier.

I just got back from seeing the movie... Not horrible, but that final battle was a huge disapointment. Crappy choreography cannot be remedied with tons of CG.

[EXO]

You are assuming that the Architect told Neo the full truth, not half truth or minced words regarding his predecessors.

I believe the architect was trying to tll the truth as far as he knew. There was a skew in the scheme of things when Neo first killed Agent Smith. I believe his predecessors made it to the phone that day. But When Neo died and was reborn into the One, it was too much too soon. If he would have made that phone call, the struggle between Agent Smith would have been toned down to a lesser level. But as Neo got more powerful, so did Agent Smith, as it was his place to balance Neo out. As I said before, even the Meronvingian was surprised in how powerful Neo was. He thought those guys could stop him in that stairwell battle. The Oracle saw as far as she could, but I don't think she understood any of it. Like she said, she couldn't see passed the choice.

YLM, I think the line was Everything that has a beginning, has an end...

[Sundown]

The occurrence of EMP is strongly dependent on the altitude of burst. It can be significant for surface or low altitude bursts (below 4,000 m); it is very significant for high altitude bursts (above 30,000 m); but it is not significant for altitudes between these extremes.

Ya think humans, as smart as they are, would have known to detonate the nukes at the appropriate altitude? Seeing as that quote comes from umm... common human knowledge? =)

Either way, if the machines could have figured out a way to defeat lightning, then they should have figured out a way to defeat the lightning guns the zionists were using against them.

-Al

[Max Jenius]

The occurrence of EMP is strongly dependent on the altitude of burst. It can be significant for surface or low altitude bursts (below 4,000 m); it is very significant for high altitude bursts (above 30,000 m); but it is not significant for altitudes between these extremes.

Ya think humans, as smart as they are, would have known to detonate the nukes at the appropriate altitude? Seeing as that quote comes from umm... common human knowledge? =)

Either way, if the machines could have figured out a way to defeat lightning, then they should have figured out a way to defeat the lightning guns the zionists were using against them.

-Al

I highly doubt that if they were stupid enough to block out the sun, they would even consider EMP. In the Animatrix(or whenever we tried to nuke em), they were obviously hoping that the heat/radiation would kick the machines' asses. After that, I don't think they had a chance to retaliate.

Perhaps the machines lied, but I don't think so. That's the beauty of Machines; they can turn it off. Plus, I think that many of the assorted AI programs are starting to get really sick of the war and really don't want to continue.

[91WhiskeyM6]

I knew there would be peace between the Machines and the freed humans. The oracle in Animatrix kept saying how both Machine and Man were responsible for each other's misery. So in the end, they would have to learn to coexist with each other peacefully.

I think they should continue with another 3 episodes and JUST DESTROY THE earth to teach man and the machines a lesson.

What did you guys think of the Machine world's defensive weaponry? Pretty cool huh? Those Star Wars AT-AT "Walkers" and Starship Troopers Plasma Bug looking things looked awesome!

They should have made the humans attack Machine city with an army of APU's instead <_<

Edited November 8, 2003 by 91WhiskeyM6

[Keith]

I think you guys are taking that whole "Smith is Neo's equal but opposite" thing too seriously. If he truly was, then he'd be a force fighting "for" the machines. I think it was just said to quanitfy Smith's new existence. The machines sure as hell didn't make him, it just so happened to be that coincidentally, a strong force of good coming into existence triggered a strong force for bad. It was hardly the system that made Smith. Smith's denial of being defeated made Smith.

[91WhiskeyM6]

Overall, the film was too short for me. It was like all the characters we enjoyed in the last 2 movies made brief cameo appearances and that was it. I also didn't like how Morpheus took a backseat to Naobi in this movie.

Damn..... Monica was hot wasn't she? Those mammary glands.