Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

[Graham]

I think it's fair to say that since they first started designing variable Macross toys back in 1999, Yamato have improved leaps and bounds in terms of the appearance, features and overall designs of their high-end collectors pieces. However, I think most of us also acknowledge that Yamato still have some way to go in terms of durability. Specifically the durability, design, long-term tightness and material strength of the joints on their toys.

That's not to say that all joints on all Yamato toys are bad. On the contrary most joints on the majority of the toys are fine. However, there are still enough documented cases of joints either breaking or just plain disintegrating that improvement from Yamato is still needed.

But this thread is not about Yamato, it is about Bandai, or more specifically Bandai’s upcoming 1/60 scale DX VF-25 toys.

Now, I for one am glad these Bandai DX toys will be sturdy, that’s one less thing to worry about.

However, I am still disappointed with the overall appearance of these toys. The major points that bug me are: The drooping nose in fighter mode, the overly short, lacking in detail, shopping trolley landing gear, the too long 'Michael Jackson ankles' (I have no idea who or what an 'Urkle' is, so I'm calling them Michael Jackson ankles instead), the hips sitting too high in battroid mode, the engine nacelles sitting too low in battroid mode, the lack of a neck on Ozma, the gap between the head and backplate in Altos fighter mode. Minor things that annoy me are: The black dots on the shoulders are too small. The biceps look too chunky and there seems to be no molded on detail on the inside of the backplate, unlike the model kit, which is full of detail.

Bandai does have the skill and experience to make these toys look much better, while still keeping the durability. I've sat in on enough design and production meetings with Yamato over the last 9 years to know what is and is not technically possible. Bandai really could have made these look nicer. It really would not be that difficult and durability would not have to be sacrificed. I'm not talking about making them 100% anime accurate, but definitely they could look far better than they look now.

But that is not the route that Bandai chose. They seem to think that the Japanese consumer wants a more chunky looking toy with durability being the main criteria and appearance being less important.

Graham

[IXTL]

I hope these are out by Christmas.

They're scheduled for release on Christmas day.

[ntsan]

They're scheduled for release on Christmas day.

So for oveseas it would take around next year to deliver?

[drifand]

I hear you Graham, and perhaps we should all be familiar with the realities of Bandai's business methods. Toys, even the SOCs will almost never equal the detailing found on the best of Bandai's model kits. This is the 'advantage' of Yamato's 'display-first' approach to their products over Bandai's established 'toy-first' approach for.. toys. I can easily envision a total step-up beyond anything Yamato has achieved if Bandai so choose to make a 'Perfect Grade' VF-25, but that''s moot for now.

I am just certain of this: I love to play and transform my Macross toys more than just leaving them on the shelf or stand, and with Bandai's VF-25, I know that 5~10 years down the road, there's a much higher probability that I will still be enjoying the toy as a careful adult collector who takes care of his things. This same belief cannot be applied to Yamato as yet for all the reasons you've put up so succinctly. Until Yamato really, really steps up their 'Quality' game, I will always see them as a 'wasted potential' company. I would love to see them prove me wrong.

[Graham]

So for oveseas it would take around next year to deliver?

I know we are not their intended market, and that Chrismas traditions are perhaps not widely followed in Japan, but I really hate it when the Japanese release toys on Christmas day. Just a week or two before would be enough that we could actually have them under our trees on Christmas day.

Despite being disappointed with the toy so far, it would still be cool to have it to open on Christmas day.

Graham

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

But that is not the route that Bandai chose. They seem to think that the Japanese consumer wants a more chunky looking toy with durability being the main criteria and appearance being less important.

According to Vifam7's translation of the GA page, they do. Well we also have to take into account that the plamo market is arguably bigger, and more popular, and Bandai is offering their fans 3 different types of VF-25. It seems that a toy that is sturdy but inaccurate is acceptable since there is already superb accuracy offered on the plamo. However in my opinion the overall balanced appearance of the DX is my preference over the skinny, more accurate plamo. I don't think this is a case where Bandai purposely sabotaged their own DX toy, I think they just wanted each design team to go separate directions, and play the strengths of each one(parts former, perfect variable, plamo). As in best accuracy for a plamo as always expected, superb durability in sturdiness on the DX perfect variable, and make the 1/100 look more accurate than the DX, but more durable than the plamo. I like this because there is more variety.

I am just certain of this: I love to play and transform my Macross toys more than just leaving them on the shelf or stand, and with Bandai's VF-25, I know that 5~10 years down the road, there's a much higher probability that I will still be enjoying the toy as a careful adult collector who takes care of his things. This same belief cannot be applied to Yamato as yet for all the reasons you've put up so succinctly. Until Yamato really, really steps up their 'Quality' game, I will always see them as a 'wasted potential' company. I would love to see them prove me wrong.

God damn it I miss your posts.

This is the 'advantage' of Yamato's 'display-first' approach to their products over Bandai's established 'toy-first' approach for.. toys.

That's another reason why I think Bandai went the route of offering 3 different forms of VF-25. Yamato would only offer 1, and it might bite off more than it can chew like some of the previous releases. Seems Yamato will make all the compromises to make something look good and be perfect.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I'm okay with the proportions. And the Skull Leader color scheme is just too damn sexy!

Same here. My big question now, will all those details be painted on the toy? If so...holy sh1t. Especially impressive on Ozma's.

[badboy00z]

I don't see why bandai can't/ didn't combine the detail and anime accurate design of the models and the durability of the toys. They could've killed two birds with one stone but instead they only cater to either one or the other and leave the others unsatisfied.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

2 versions of crap and 1 model

[Spiff]

(I have no idea who or what an 'Urkle' is, ...)

Graham

Urkel was a stereotypical geek/nerd, with large, thick eyeglasses, "high-water or flooding" pants held up by suspenders, multi-colored cardigan sweaters, and a high-pitched voice. Urkel was originally a one-shot character on Family Matters, but, because of audience and ratings reactions, he became a main draw to the show.

[drifand]

I don't see why bandai can't/ didn't combine the detail and anime accurate design of the models and the durability of the toys. They could've killed two birds with one stone but instead they only cater to either one or the other and leave the others unsatisfied.

Ditto for Yamato, yes? The vast majority of their releases certainly cannot be treated in the relatively carefree manner as a Soul of Chogokin toy. It's just the way things are... I definitely got a lot less satisfaction out of my Yamato purchases over the years compared to my SOCs. It's just a matter of different collecting priorities.

[cyde01]

i won't go so far as to call it ugly as others have. in fact, i think it's a really good looking toy. i can even live with the "urkle ankles" and the hips that are raised too high. but the droopy nose and too low engine nascelles in fighter mode make the dang thing look like it's mistransformed. so i don't think it looks ugly. it looks like a really good looking mistransformed toy.

Edited October 29, 2008 by cyde01

[eugimon]

i won't go so far as to call it ugly as others have. in fact, i think it's a really good looking toy. i can even live with the "urkle ankles" and the hips that are raised too high. but the droopy nose and too low engine nascelles in fighter mode make the dang thing look like it's mistransformed. so i don't think it looks ugly. it looks like a really good looking mistransformed toy.

It's not an ugly toy but it is an ugly representation of the vf-25.

[badboy00z]

Ditto for Yamato, yes? The vast majority of their releases certainly cannot be treated in the relatively carefree manner as a Soul of Chogokin toy. It's just the way things are... I definitely got a lot less satisfaction out of my Yamato purchases over the years compared to my SOCs. It's just a matter of different collecting priorities.

In Bandai's case, they know how to make good looking toys and make it durable. Yamato can make a good looking toy but they're only now learning how to reduce QC issues.

[badboy00z]

It's not an ugly toy but it is an ugly representation of the vf-25.

Yeah. If I was someone who saw this at a store and have never seen Macross Frontier and studied the line arts I would think it looks pretty damn cool.

[David Hingtgen]

Possible Ozma head explanation:

If you compare the model kits, it's not just the head, but the chestplate too that is different. (and the backplate too, actually) There are specific chestplates and backplates for every VF-25 variant from the model kit team. Bandai's DX team seems to be using the "Alto" chestplate and backplate for all of them, and modifying the head/neck to fit that. See how poorly the head lasers and their mount fit in fighter mode? That's because the slot on the backplate is shaped for the laser and mount of Alto. That, is just plain laziness---we know changing the slots for the lasers in the backpack isn't going to affect durability/transformation.

[regult]

Despite being disappointed with the toy so far, it would still be cool to have it to open on Christmas day.

Graham

Lucky you G-man, seems you've got a strong wallet there...the fact is, another major reason for me to be so picky on the DX is its price in present market conditions. Sturdy, maybe. Ugly, sure (for a toy it's ok, just doesn't look like a VF-25), but the paint chipping doesn't solve what I define as "durability" issues.

Same here. My big question now, will all those details be painted on the toy? If so...holy sh1t. Especially impressive on Ozma's.

Should be. Take a real look at the pictures posted so far, you should notice they had "panel" lines ALL over surface around the areas that are supposed to be painted with the colored stripes and other details (they are not actual panel lines, they're more like "paint here" cues for the factory workers). Bandai was pretty darn close to having "SMS" and "007" engraved on the toy so the least I expect is for it to be tampo-painted, but paint, as it is shown in the recent photos, is also a liability! so you may be able to bashi bashi the DX, but it will just look like matchbox cars after some serious playing pretty soon! so much for "worry-free".

I don't see why bandai can't/ didn't combine the detail and anime accurate design of the models and the durability of the toys. They could've killed two birds with one stone but instead they only cater to either one or the other and leave the others unsatisfied.

That was the evil market-driven mind??? OF COURSE they would want kill you with 3 or 4 different stones, of different sizes and prices, but all aimed at you, hmm, but that makes only 1 bird and lots of stones!!

Urkel was a stereotypical geek/nerd, with large, thick eyeglasses, "high-water or flooding" pants held up by suspenders, multi-colored cardigan sweaters, and a high-pitched voice. Urkel was originally a one-shot character on Family Matters, but, because of audience and ratings reactions, he became a main draw to the show.

Yes, now I remember where this Urkel ankles came from, thanks for the detailed explanation for some of us, sometimes not so culturally contexted with American TV. Graham's Michael Wacko reference is quite valid too, but it doesn't ryme.

Maybe I just don't get it, but why is this conversation always going back to "yamato would have had more quality issues", "yamato spontaneously combusts", etc. all the time? I know: Y-brand would probably be THE only other player, but this is about the inevitable Bandai DX version, not a "What if" discussion... and when I am pointing out issues like the urkle ankles, the drooping radome, the neck, the paint chipping, the supermarket trolley wheels, etc. I really don't have yamato in mind, and MANY people have also added that BANDAI could have done better than just send their B team or C team to the pitch.

I stress: paint chipping is a known issue in diecasts, and the fact that it does happen on the DX vf-25 spells "not worry-free transformations" for me, so I'd better stick to the cheaper, more appealing and maybe more engaging plamo...hey, money still goes to Bandai!

[ruskiiVFaussie]

You all wanna know what male models think of the DX?

Good to have fans hey Bandai

[Sam]

lmao!

I think i can live with the DX, but due to major suckage on the AUD to Yen thing, im only getting Ozma's..... sooooo many pre orders have been cancelled over the last few weeks.

I'll be happy if i can get it posed well in battroid, but gotta say, droopy nose is weird in plane mode,... and quite.. disappointing..

Damn u exchange rate! Damn you! grr

[Shaggydog]

The thing is, if we concede that Bandai doesn't have to achieve perfect anime-accuracy (which is a reasonable concession, given that the VF-25 looks significantly different in different scenes, CGI notwithstanding), then the aesthetic standard is simply that the toy 'look cool' while still recognizably representing the VF-25. Looking cool is a subjective standard, as is proper for any toy. To me, I think this toy succeeds brilliantly in that department. I'm not quite willing to say that the toy will be sturdy and toylike yet, though - only handling will give us the truth of that. Bandai is good at making sturdy toys, but they don't always choose to do so.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It's not an ugly toy but it is an ugly representation of the vf-25.

That's subjective though. Not everyone was pleased at the way the VF-25 design turned out in the anime. I think the DX toy is Bandai's way of addressing that. In this case it isn't completely accurate, but it didn't need to be accurate to look good. Me, I like the balanced approach.

[Ghost Train]

I am part of the mentally ill 1% of Macross fandom that absolutely hates how the VF-25 looks in the series. It is just too anorexic, and the mega-crotch block thing just looks strange. But I do strangely find the DX VF-25 more appealing for some reason, and like it better than the actual line-art.

There, I've said it! ... /equip flamesuit

[Vifam7]

That's subjective though. Not everyone was pleased at the way the VF-25 design turned out in the anime. I think the DX toy is Bandai's way of addressing that. In this case it isn't completely accurate, but it didn't need to be accurate to look good. Me, I like the balanced approach.

I don't know or think that Bandai purposely made DX toy look the way it does. I think it's more of a by-product of the materials Bandai used and the mechanisms they included. I sort of akin it to comparing the difference between diecast airplanes and plastic models. And in another way, how real life fighters tending to get heavier and bulkier when they go from prototype to front-line squadron aircraft.

[eugimon]

That's subjective though. Not everyone was pleased at the way the VF-25 design turned out in the anime. I think the DX toy is Bandai's way of addressing that. In this case it isn't completely accurate, but it didn't need to be accurate to look good. Me, I like the balanced approach.

No... the fact that it only resembles the actual design of the VF-25 isn't subjective. Line the two up and there's changes in every mode and the toy completely misses the spirit of the valk which is its sleekness. The model manages to capture the look and feel of the design really well, so obviously the design IS possible to translate.

What's subjective is whether you LIKE the design, and I get it's not everyone's cup of tea. It's not my favorite valk design, but if I'm going to dish out money for a toy of it... I want it to look like it.

It's like making a toy of the Nolan batmobile and turning it into a sports car... it can look good, it may even look better than the tumbler, but it's not the tumbler.

[Vifam7]

No... the fact that it only resembles the actual design of the VF-25 isn't subjective. Line the two up and there's changes in every mode and the toy completely misses the spirit of the valk which is its sleekness. The model manages to capture the look and feel of the design really well, so obviously the design IS possible to translate.

But is it possible when you add in the specification of "diecast material" and "must be sturdy"? When it's all plastic and fragility is acceptable, then yes since the model kits have proved it. But add those 2 specs, I think it becomes a bit harder to know (I'm no expert in toy engineering).

[eugimon]

But is it possible when you add in the specification of "diecast material" and "must be sturdy"? When it's all plastic and fragility is acceptable, then yes since the model kits have proved it. But add those 2 specs, I think it becomes a bit harder to know (I'm no expert in toy engineering).

No, I get that design changes probably had to be made for the material choices, I brought up the same point several pages back actually. But I think that poor choices in WHERE to place the metal resulted in a lot of the bulking up.

It's an okay toy. It's a great "transforming toy" it's just a bad rendition of a vf-25.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

No... the fact that it only resembles the actual design of the VF-25 isn't subjective.

No the fact that it is ugly to you is.

[eugimon]

No the fact that it is ugly to you is.

Again, missing the point. The toy of something is supposed to "look like" the thing it's supposed to be. The DX messes up all the proportions and gets quite a few things FLAT OUT WRONG. The hips and shoulders are just wrong. The Ozma type head is just wrong. The leg placement in fighter mode is wrong. The ankle extensions are wrong. These aren't subjective, but measurable and quantifiable. The design puts them in one place at one size and the DX does something entirely different.

You can like the changes, you can like the toy, that's subjective. but it's not a good vf-25.

I find it hilarious that you rail against the 1/48 so vehemently for the design compromises made and yet the DX makes all the same changes, wide shoulders, long monkey arms, thick legs, and oh so much more.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I find it hilarious that you rail against the 1/48 so vehemently for the design compromises made and yet the DX makes all the same changes, wide shoulders, long monkey arms, thick legs, and oh so much more.

Completely different mecha those 2 are based on. What's wrong with constructive criticism? I like the new 1/60 more than the 1/48, but I don't intend to sell my 1/48. The DX doesn't make the same changes. You don't see notoriously skeletal hands when they aren't supposed to be, or arms hanging down the the underside of the fighter mode below the legs. Not a fair comparison but hey since you threw it out there...Besides the VF-25 is skinny so the arm comparison is out of the window for battroid mode.

You can like the changes, you can like the toy, that's subjective. but it's not a good vf-25.

And that last part isn't?

[nugundamII]

GA Graphic's reviews of the DX Chogokin VF-25F and VF-25S coloured test shots.

http://ga.sbcr.jp/mgangu/011531/

http://ga.sbcr.jp/mgangu/011533/

whoohoo

I wanted this colour scheme anyway!

[nugundamII]

I am part of the mentally ill 1% of Macross fandom that absolutely hates how the VF-25 looks in the series. It is just too anorexic, and the mega-crotch block thing just looks strange. But I do strangely find the DX VF-25 more appealing for some reason, and like it better than the actual line-art.

There, I've said it! ... /equip flamesuit

Shame on you. Dont you know that Yamato makes more superior products and better manufacture IDENTICAL show worthy Valks. I know the hands on the 1/48s look like toothpicks and the back pack is hard to keep in place but that Line art is soooooo

100% Bandai's vf 25 is just sooooo fat. That dam crotch is soo big. Nevermind if you never saw the show and would think that the design is soo cool it just isnt 100% so its poo WHY cause Yamato makes a Superior product even tho plastic scaring occurs when you try to transform it or certain fast packs cant stay on. ahem lets not mention the perfect macross motorcyle valk < forgot the name, where you to transform it and try to stick the figure in the seat it would break. But thats ok and its forgivable because Yamato is the BEST TOY COMPANY EVER and their stuff is 100% show accurate

Whats wrong with you!!!!!!!! Who cares if it breaks only that its a YAMATO and show accurate

I LOVE YOU YAMATO I LOVE YOU!!!!!

[Shaggydog]

No... the fact that it only resembles the actual design of the VF-25 isn't subjective. Line the two up and there's changes in every mode and the toy completely misses the spirit of the valk which is its sleekness. The model manages to capture the look and feel of the design really well, so obviously the design IS possible to translate.

That the DX toy isn't perfectly anime accurate, and that it doesn't perfectly match the lineart, is indeed NOT subjective. Neither does the model kit, nor any other transforming toy that's ever been made, to my knowledge. It's probably also not subjective to say that the model kit comes closer to lineart accuracy than the DX toy does. HOWEVER, whether the DX toy captures the 'spirit' of the valk - YES, that is subjective. I believe that it does. You don't. See? subjective.

[David Hingtgen]

Kawamori has been making valks more and more plausible/possible in the 3D world lately, this started with Zero. He now starts with LEGO, he no longer uses retractable hands, etc. All seem to be "concessions" to being able to actually make them in 3D, as opposed to the YF-19 and YF-21, which simply cannot maintain proportions across modes in real life. The fact that the MOST PLAUSIBLE/REALISTIC one ever translated so poorly into actual 3D, says a lot about what Bandai's doing.

[VFTF1]

That dam crotch is soo big.

So -the truth comes out.

People who don't like the DX just can't stand the fact that it has a big crotch and even struts it around.

Although, in all seriousness - how can a fan of Macross complain about the crotch on the VF-25, given the very prominent placement of the VF-1's nosecone in battroid mode?

If the crotch on the VF-25 DIDN'T jut out prominently, then it just wouldn't be Macross, which is defined as hot singing chicks and so big crotches on robots.

Duh.

Pete

[adrianop]

Meh, I dont really care which manufacturer makes the toy. If it looks good and is acceptable I save up for it. Alot of it is subjective, but mostly quantifiable. The powercrotch in the DX 1/60 is really disturbing. Maybe it will grow on me.