Macross II Why not Canon?

[Valkyrie addict]

I wonder how many of us have started rewatching, SDFM, Macross II, plus and 7 to answer all the facts correctly, hahahhaa, good read indeed

I actually don't like how they portrayed Reaction weaponry use on 7, it's a hassle to try to get to use them since you have to ask permission to everyone up to your mother for it, and when they got used they proved useless, it fail to destroyed a PD and a whale...

I think, Macross II was mainly put off as non-cannon, as mentioned before so the stories of Mac plus and 7 could be developed, since Macross II limited the possibilites, look at how Kawamori has set up the Macross universe, very open to allow an infinite amount of stories to be telled, Macross II universe was very limited in a way, that Earth remained as it is, it develope a limted space fleet and are full of themself

the original macross states that humanity shall never be close to extinction again thus the reason for the space colonization in case earth got attacked again and destroyed, and only reason I could find for the UN Spacy to limit the use of Reactin weaponry in 7 (apart from Japan's stigma), is that we shouldn't become like the Zentradi and destroy a civilization unless it was absolutely neccesary, the PD althought they were only... errr... 5 I think, were an advance race and to destroy them just isn't always the answer, and I find interesting how they portrayed Max and Miria, Max the Human as the Captain of Battle 7 always fighting and destroying, and Miria, the zentradi, mayor of City 7 trying to sort to limited militaristic approaches to protect the people

and I find Zero fits well in the Macross continuity, I actually like the part, that in SDFM when Claudia is helping Misa, she tells the story of her and Focker and mentions that he got stationed in South Ataria Island for 1 year and didn't hear anything from him until she got stationed there right before SDFM storyline, which would fit into the Zero storyline, in that year, the events of Zero happened [spoiler warning for the MW fan who's been living under a rock and hasn't seen Zero] and also Focker had to grieve for that scientist chick that we never see how she got wounded so she could spit blood and die

Edited March 18, 2007 by Valkyrie addict

[Zinjo]

Is this kind of comment really necessary?

Of the many things it says about you, I read it as: why bother trying to have an intelligent discussion with you. Enjoy the solitude.

Is it necessary? Sometimes, in order to shake some out of a blinded train of thought not being discussed.

I had already posted, it is pointless to compare the equipment without comparing specs, because then it becomes an argument about preferences. There are those who prefer the Mac II approach, others do not, both are legitimate opinions, but opinions nonetheless.

I am not interested in debating which is better since both are very different in their approaches to the universe post SDFM. I do find it fascinating looking at the differences.

[Beltane70]

Going off topic for a moment.

and also Focker had to grieve for that scientist chick that we never see how she got wounded so she could spit blood and die

Actually, it's pretty obvious how Aries is fatally wounded. She had the supports for the Bird Human's head collapse on top of her, probably causing massive internal injuries. I may be no doctor, but I would assume that a punctured lung caused her to cough up blood just before she dies.

[JB0]

Well said Zinjo. Writing profiles for the M3, I've found this little rule a very useful policy to embrace. Though, the speculation attempting to reconcile Macross II to the Macross-proper universe goes beyond anything I'd agree with, I will agree with you that it is important to monitor one's perceptions of what can and can't be in the Macross universe, lest we run into RPG-like "conclusions"

Personally, I don't really think Mac2 should count. The franchise creators, who are currently in charge, say it doesn't, so it doesn't.

I just find it an amusing exercise to try and make it fit.

That's a good question. Since OverTechnology is more advanced than any human technology, it's safe to assume that reaction weaponry is far more destructive than conventional nuclear weapons. Or, at our most skeptical, that OverTechnology reaction weapons have a far greater destructive potential than conventional nuclear weapons, but aren't always utilized to their maximum destructive capability. It's possible that efficiency plays a big role in OverTechnology and thus perhaps reaction weapons simply have far greater reactant fissioning percentages rather than yields being all that bigger.

I'd actually assume they're using fusion instead of fission. It's much more powerful, usually cleaner, and doesn't require a bomb be made out of radioactive materials.

From that perspective, fuel density and efficiency SHOULD be the biggest factors.

Overtech lets you increase the fuel load by discarding the fission "starter" used in modern fusion weapons. But that doesn't gain you a whole lot, really.

Big gain would probably be a containment field to keep things together longer, or a more evenly distributed reaction. Most of the mass of a conventional fusion weapon is wasted because it gets blown clear before it can fuse.

Beyond that... we get into "so advanced it looks like magic" territory.

Maybe it actually collapses the fuel down into a singularity? If nothing else, the subsequent evaporation of the black hole back into normal matter would release a good bit of energy(if I recall, there's believed to be a large energy release once a black hole becomes too small to remain a black hole).

It's SORT OF like fusion...

Having said that, there aren't many examples in Macross that show reaction weapons doing something with a yield any greater than that which is possible using current technology. The best example using reaction missiles is the final battle with the Bodol Zer Fleet in which the Macross destroys the Fulbtzs-Berrentzs with a hundred or more reaction warheads. In order to destroy a 1,400 kilometer object, you'd need plenty of firepower. As a comparison, the Hiroshima Bomb was roughly 15 kilotons and it affected just one city. Obviously, the Zentradi Flagship is much larger and more massive than the Japanese Islands because of it's width and depth, so even a hundred or more kiloton yield weapons wouldn't be enough to destroy it. Likely, we'd be looking at individual yields in the high megaton or even gigaton range assuming 100-200 missiles launched from the Macross. These weapon yields would be beyond our current capabilites.

Unless you hit something prone to going kablooie inside the ship. That was what the Robotech(eww) novels (EEWWWW!) proposed. It's probably not a viable plan unless you're SURE you can get a line of sight on the thing, and the missile "cloud" implies they COULDN'T see anything really explodable.

The biggest example of firepower in Macross still remains the SDF-1 Macross cannon and by extension, that means all Zentradi Quiltra-Quelamitz Class Medium-Scale Gunboats and Meltrandi Medium Scale Gunboats possess the same maximum destructive potential (as well as the Film Version of Britai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs command ship). There were a few fans online that did actual calculations for the effect of the SDF-1 Macross cannon based on it's firing in Episode 1 "Booby Trap." Depending upon the assumptions made, the calculations for the vaporization of the mountain range of South Ataria Island, the ocean the beam blasted through and then the two Zentradi pickets the beam destroyed some 280,000 kilometers away lead to explosive yields in the high gigaton to low teraton range. Might be able to find them with a google search, but I assume these numbers are pretty much what you're looking for anyway.

Yah. I never saw any real numbers, but I knew it was obscenely overpowered.

[Mr March]

Personally, I don't really think Mac2 should count. The franchise creators, who are currently in charge, say it doesn't, so it doesn't. I just find it an amusing exercise to try and make it fit.

*snip*

I wouldn't think we have much choice. The big guys declare Macross II is a parallel universe, so we're pretty much stuck with that interpretation. I'll agree with you that there's no harm in trying to make it work as an exercise, but I'd just as soon not bother myself.

I actually should have used "fusing" rather than "fissioning" since the literature states OverTechnology reaction engines are indeed fusion devices. My mistake. But the point I was trying to make still applies. Even our best nuclear weapons are very inefficient, sometimes utilizing very small percentages of the actual reactant in in the bomb for the explosion. Going back to the early Hiroshima examples, I remember the bomb being so ineffcient it actually utilized less than 5% of the reactant of the bomb in the explosion, the rest being wasted. Given the displays of destructive force for reaction warheads in Macross, it's likely that OT allows much more efficient fusion weapons but not necessarily all that much larger yields (though again using several notable examples from the series, there are OT reaction bombs pumping out way more firepower than anything we could hope to match with real world tech).

Regardless, I think we're both on the same line of thought here

The destruction of the Bodolzaa's Flagship is indeed open to interpretation and we can't know for sure exactly how is was destroyed. However, based on the numerous examples throughout the series of Zentradi capital ships being destroyed, it's clear there is no single contained area that would suggest secondary explosions from engines/reactors. They pretty much blow up all over when destroyed, suggesting most of the damage is from the weapon being used on the vessel.

The actual calcs were quite interesting. Kinda gives one a sense of the firepower the Macross can dish out. Wish I could find them online, but it's been years since I last saw them.

[Zinjo]

Personally, I don't really think Mac2 should count. The franchise creators, who are currently in charge, say it doesn't, so it doesn't.

I just find it an amusing exercise to try and make it fit.

It really isn't a matter of whether it counts or not, but more that it simply can't exist in the same chronology of the Nue universe as it is written. In order for the franchise to be free of limitations from a show that would otherwise bind it to a vision of the universe that would last 70 years. The vision Mac II presents is much more bleek and hard compared to the Nue universe. It presents the Earth as struggling to recover for decades as opposed to the near miraculous recovery made in the Nue universe within a 20 year period.

I find it more facinating to examine the differences in the two because both visions are consistent and faithful to their own concepts of what happened during the reconstruction period in the universe.

I'd actually assume they're using fusion instead of fission. It's much more powerful, usually cleaner, and doesn't require a bomb be made out of radioactive materials.

From that perspective, fuel density and efficiency SHOULD be the biggest factors.

Overtech lets you increase the fuel load by discarding the fission "starter" used in modern fusion weapons. But that doesn't gain you a whole lot, really.

Big gain would probably be a containment field to keep things together longer, or a more evenly distributed reaction. Most of the mass of a conventional fusion weapon is wasted because it gets blown clear before it can fuse.

Beyond that... we get into "so advanced it looks like magic" territory.

Maybe it actually collapses the fuel down into a singularity? If nothing else, the subsequent evaporation of the black hole back into normal matter would release a good bit of energy(if I recall, there's believed to be a large energy release once a black hole becomes too small to remain a black hole).

It's SORT OF like fusion...

I've always believed that Reaction weaponry was either a hyper powered nuke or some kind of nuclear detonation that only OTEC can produce. When you consider that OTEC reaction weaponry was able to destroy ships over a km long it is a testament to how powerful they are and it does bring into question if a modern conventional nuke is capable of such distruction in the vacuum of space? Without atmosphere conventional nukes are much less destructive.

[mechaninac]

In space, unless you are at or near the null point of the Nuclear detonation, the majority of the damage is cause by the ablative force of the photons generated by the blast. With no atmosphere there is no shock wave to cause the kind of damage associated with ground or air bursts... no supersonic air displacement away from the explosion, and no rebound rush to fill in the vacuum (what really causes the characteristic mushroom cloud). In essence, what you get is a fierce blast of light and other electromagnetic waves accompanied by high velocity particle radiation. Any unshielded object caught in the blast's effective range would be vaporized.

As for Mac 2, I'm of the opinion that sometime after the events of FB2012, something that is not mentioned or alluded to, happened, perhaps to the Megaroad 01 fleet, that causes Earth to become insular. That would explain their apparent lack of a vibrant colonization program, their reliance on their Minmay defense system, and lack of accelerated VF development. At this pivotal point, the Mac 2 and M+/M7 timelines diverge into incompatible versions of what could be... they're both equally valid but mutually exclusive.

[Zinjo]

As for Mac 2, I'm of the opinion that sometime after the events of FB2012, something that is not mentioned or alluded to, happened, perhaps to the Megaroad 01 fleet, that causes Earth to become insular. That would explain their apparent lack of a vibrant colonization program, their reliance on their Minmay defense system, and lack of accelerated VF development. At this pivotal point, the Mac 2 and M+/M7 timelines diverge into incompatible versions of what could be... they're both equally valid but mutually exclusive.

It could have been that they lost contact with the Megaroad much sooner than in the Nue universe and the powers that be concluded that emigration was too dangerous to risk any more population on until a better equipped defensive fleet could be sent along (similar to the Mac 7 fleet). With reconstruction taking precidence over colonization, ultimately no more expeditions took place. Hence the isolationist mentality of the population and the construction of several defence fleets that would patrol the Sol system.

[Nexx Stalker]

Macross II was made to try and exploit the success of DYRL, but since it was made without any input from the original creators, the writers got too creative and made some extreme changes that contradicted or made no sense with the original

Being what? After Macross Frontier, Macross II would fit extremely well into the Macross timeline (NUNS, advanced Valkyries with "ghost" drones and super/armor packs, wheeled destroids - the list could go on forever). There is nothing in the dialogue that contradicts or denies anything about the previous series (things happened only in written form or videogames don't mean nothing).

Edited September 24, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[RedWolf]

Being what? After Macross Frontier, Macross II would fit extremely well into the Macross timeline (NUNS, advanced Valkyries with "ghost" drones and super/armor packs, wheeled destroids - the list could go on forever). There is nothing in the dialogue that contradicts or denies anything about the previous series (things happened only in written form or videogames don't mean nothing).

Two factors why Macross II is separated from the main continuity.

1. Shoji Kawamori didn't have anything to do with it.

2. It wasn't produced by Studio Nue.

Also in SK/Studio Nue continuity traces its origins to the original SDF Macross TV.

Macross II continuity traces its origins with the DYRL movie. Silvy said she's a quarter Meltran.

Macross II continuity

Macross DYRL--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

Macross 2036 (game), Macross ELS (game), Variable Fighter History (B-Club article). Like you can see, the two games can be seen as prequels to Macross II. The 2054 events may explain why:

1) Britai's fleet isn't around in Macross 2.

2) The UN Spacy is so weak in Macross 2.

Also you can see there are colonization missions in the Macross 2 "universe", but not on the same scale than in Studio Nue's later stories.

You will also note there is a lot of Gundam influence. In Macross ELS, we see "funnels" as well as small-scale fleet battles ala Gundam. The civilian Valkyries naming pattern follows those of the Gundams (ie RX-78, RX designed in UC 78 and VC-51, Valkyrie designed in AD 2051 etc...)

2010 ~ 2036

- During this period, several Zentradi fleets attack, but they're repelled by the UN Spacy forces lead by Commander Britai, as well as by the shock caused by the the Minmay Attack. Development of the VF-1R Valkyrie equipped with the SP-II Super Pack.

2014

- Launch of the interstellar emigration ship SDF-2 Megaroad, escorted by VF-4 fighters.

2018

- Lott Sheen born.

2019

- Komilia Maria Jenius born.

2032

- Dr H. Tachikahof passes away. He was the father of the VF-1 and VF-1R series.

2036: The Super Dimension Fortress Macross 2036

- Maria Jenius and Lott Sheen underwent pilot training under Britai's supervision. Just before their graduation, a Zentradi fleet unaffected by the Minmay Attack invades the Solar System and engages the UN Spacy fleet.

- Maria, Lott and the others cadets are allowed to fight in the light of the crisis.

- Maria battles and defeats Quamzin Kravshera and his underlings Jinna and Grimzo. The infamous trio manage to survive and to flee.

- The UN Spacy fleet defeats the so-called Neld Fleet

- Maria Jenius and Lott Sheen promoted to the rank of 1st Lieutenant. Maria becomes commander of the Red Horns Squadron.

2037: The Super Dimension Fortress Macross ~ Eternal Love Song

- Earth is under attack of the Zentradi Burado Fleet and of the Meltrandi Mokurendis Fleet. After an initial retreat, the UN Spacy launches a counterattack spear-headed by the Prometheus 2 taskforce.

- The Meltrandi Mokurendis Fleet withdraws.

- Meltrandi ace pilot Misty Klaus joins the UN Spacy with the rank of 2nd Lieutnenant

- UN Spacy cadet Kiryû Hayato is promoted to the rank of Major, and appointed CAG of the Prometheus 2 ship.

- Introduction of the VF-4 Siren, the "super" variant VF-4SP, and the funnels-equipped VF-4ST.

- The UN Spacy main fleet and the Prometheus 2 launch a combined attack on the Burado Fleet. The UN Spacy launches the Minmay Attack (Ai oboete imasu ka) and defeats the Burado Fleet.

2040s

Earth enjoys a relative peace.

2050s

Development of civilian-use Valkyries (the so-called VC series) begins.

2051

Development of the VC-51.

May 2054

- The Macross-class interstellar emigration ship "Million Star" is attacked by Zentradi rogues while cruising at 1.8 light-years from Earth.

- To defend itself, mankind establish a defensive perimeter at Pluto's orbit. The Britai Fleet and the Minmay Attack plays a key role in this defensive perimeter.

December 2054

- The Zentradi rogues enter the defensive perimeter. The UN Spacy repels the invaders but suffers terrible losses.

- The Britai Fleet is decimated (both men and equipment) .

- The UN Spacy captures a Zentradi factory satellite.

2060s

- Development of the VF-XX series begins.

2072

- Roll-out of the first VF-2 series fighter.

2079

- Development of the VC-079.

2081

- Development of the VF-2SS (space-use variant of the VF-2 series)

2082

- A Zentradi fleet attacks Earth. The VF-2SS takes part to actual combat.

2086

- Development of the VF-2JA (atmosphere-use variant of the VF-2 series)

And then Macross II...

The series 80 years after the Space War One so probably 2089~2092. In the first episode, Sylvie says the latest Zentradi attack took place 10 years ago. If it's the 2082 invasion, then it would put Macross II around 2091~2092.

[Sergorn]

Macross II continuity

Macross DYRL--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

Hey thanks for the chronologye

What are Macross 2036 and Eternal Love Song though ? Videogames ?

-Sergorn

[Nexx Stalker]

Macross II continuity

Macross DYRL--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

Thanks for the host of info! Many were new to me (detailed info on 2036 and eternal Love song)

By the way, I was only suggesting that by watching only the OVA series without knowledge of all this background info (we know that written chronologies are bound to be changed, especially when kawamori is around), Macross II fits perfectly well also on the "canon" continuity. Better, Frontier establishes far more connections to II than ever before. Unless something drastic happens in ep. 25 and the whole picture changes again, of course .

[Duke Togo]

After Macross Frontier, Macross II would fit extremely well into the Macross timeline...

Negative, Ghostrider, the pattern is full.

[RedWolf]

Hey thanks for the chronologye

What are Macross 2036 and Eternal Love Song though ? Videogames ?

-Sergorn

PC Engine games

Not part of the TV continuity. It follows the movie.

Zentrans and Meltrans are enemies. Vrlitwhai is UN Spacy commander. In the TV universe Komillia was born in 2011 in the Movie universe she was born in 2019.

They don't steal the factory satellite till 2054. In the TV universe they stole it in 2011.

If you'll notice that the UN Spacy in Macross II was still reliant on the Zentradi fleet.

In SK Macross universe they built their own fleet, even upgrading Nupetiet-Vergnitzs battleship to the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis Class Stealth Fleet Command Battleship. Creating the New Macross Class which is a carrier battleship for the colony fleet at 1,510 meters. Having several variants. Also the Macross class at 1200 meters.

In the Macross II universe they build 4 kilometer long monster ships the Macross Cannons. Which has 4 heavy energy convergence beam cannons each looking like a Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bow. The SDF-1 Macross has been rebuilt but it discharges its main cannon. Also its ARMDs and leg sections have been refitted as Macross cannons too. In this universe the Macross was formerly a Meltrandi gun destroyer not a Supervision Gunship.

[yellowlightman]

I enjoy the Macross II continuity a lot for some of its designs and the "what-if" factor, but I don't think it really needs to be put into the official continuity. It is what it is... and that's enough.

[TheLoneWolf]

Macross II continuity

Macross DYRL--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

Nowhere in Yoshi's timeline does it explicitly state that Macross II is a sequel to DYRL.

It should be:

SDF Macross--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

First off, the title of screen of 2036 shows the TV version of the SDF-1, complete with the TV color scheme and Daedalus and Prometheus attached. The SDF-1 in DYRL has a different color scheme and has the ARMD carriers. The pic below is pretty bad, I can post a better one without the logo obstructing the SDF-1.

Second, according to the Macross II OST v2, Macross II occurs in 2092. In the Macross II OAV it's stated several times that it's been 80 years since the first conflict. 2092 - 80 = 2012. As we all know, SDF Macross ends in 2012. DYRL ends in 2010 and doesn't correspond with any of the dates given.

Like YLM said, inserting Macross II into the Studio Nue timeline in unnecessary.

[Duke Togo]

As we all know, SDF Macross ends in 2012. DYRL ends in 2010 and doesn't correspond with any of the dates given.

SDF Macross covers reconstruction, DYRL does not. Trying to match them up date wise won't work that way.

[RedWolf]

Nowhere in Yoshi's timeline does it explicitly state that Macross II is a sequel to DYRL.

The thing is these games were before either SK and Studio Nue started building continuity.

Thus rendered non-canon as Macross II.

To all the MWers who have replied to this thread, thank you very much. rolleyes.gif

The 2019 birthdate

Let's go back to 1992, when these two games were created. The only existing Macross were SDF, DYRL? and Flashback 2012. Back then, there was no "continuity" and DYRL? had no other stauts than a theatrical rendition of the Macross story. Kawamori-san and co. were not willing to do more Macross. So the new guys were pretty free to do anything with dates and charas without being pointed wrong...

In the Macross II Entertainment Bible, there is a paragraph titled "Flashback 2019". It states that (Flashback) "is an episode taking place 20 years after Macross fell on Earth and 10 years after the war against the Zentradi."

The lower page of page 34 is a summary of the Macross 2036 events, and again it states that Maria is 17 year old by 2036.

The same book also mentions several times that the SDF-2 Megaroad was launched by 2014. B-Club issue 79 also states the SDF-2 Megaroad was launched by 2014.

I don't know more than that, but IMHO the Komilia 2019 birthdate isn't a typo, it looks like the writers tried to build a Macross continuity (again remember at the time Kawamori-san and Studio Nue didn't went beyond the 2012 events). I've already said on this board I consider 2036 and ELS can be seen as prequel to Macross II. It looks like people tried to do something with 2036, ELS and II but nothing solid came out of it. Just my opinion...

Thing is Eternal Love Song is a sequel to 2036 as it shows Komillia as a returning character.

So is the Ally-killer Quamzin who makes a second comeback from the grave. (That is why I had a WTF expression when Frontier showed a Quamzin look alike.)

In ELS Zentradi and Meltrandi are enemies indicating DYRL.

[TheLoneWolf]

The thing is these games were before either SK and Studio Nue started building continuity.

Thus rendered non-canon as Macross II.

Agreed. Macross 2036 and ELS are non-canon and take place in the same universe as Macross II. DYRL is not a part of this universe.

Thing is Eternal Love Song is a sequel to 2036 as it shows Komillia as a returning character.

So is the Ally-killer Quamzin who makes a second comeback from the grave. (That is why I had a WTF expression when Frontier showed a Quamzin look alike.)

I don't quite follow you. Was that a question or a statement?

In ELS Zentradi and Meltrandi are enemies indicating DYRL.

Jinna Fiaro (female) works alongside Quamzin in both games and the Neld Fleet also uses Q-Rau's in battle in 2036, so I'm not sure what the developers were thinking in ELS.

[RedWolf]

I don't quite follow you. Was that a question or a statement?

Statement, first freaking time Kawamori trolled us in Frontier.

Preview of a guy that looks like Quamzin then he turns out to be another guy.

Instead of an explosive death he sinks. Writer's backdoor if they want to use that guy as an antagonist again.

I was so sure he was going to be back and be a pain for Alto. But didn't happen.

[Nexx Stalker]

No matter how fascinatig Videogames may be, I don't consider them canon (before Duke Togo has something to add , my statement remains true EVEN if Kawamori himself should ever say otherwise). And I don't mean only 2036 and Eternal Love Song, but also VFX I and II (marvellous designs, true, but just videogames nonetheless).

[Duke Togo]

No matter how fascinatig Videogames may be, I don't consider them canon (before Duke Togo has something to add , my statement remains true EVEN if Kawamori himself should ever say otherwise). And I don't mean only 2036 and Eternal Love Song, but also VFX I and II (marvellous designs, true, but just videogames nonetheless).

Eh, I don't pay attention to the games. Only one I ever tried playing was VF-X2, and the controls stunk.

[DestroidDefender]

Two factors why Macross II is separated from the main continuity.

1. Shoji Kawamori didn't have anything to do with it.

2. It wasn't produced by Studio Nue.

Also in SK/Studio Nue continuity traces its origins to the original SDF Macross TV.

Macross II continuity traces its origins with the DYRL movie. Silvy said she's a quarter Meltran.

Macross II continuity

Macross DYRL--->Macross 2036--->Macross Eternal Love Song--->Macross II

Since I started this thread I thought I'd drop in and see where it's going. The discussion is interesting but it's veered back into well covered territory.

If you read my initial question, I'm aware of SK/Studio Nue's non involvement. I'm not asking if Mac II is canon or why it's not canon. I"m asking if there is anything definitive in the actual on screen narrative in Mac II that makes it impossible to reconcile it with "canon" Macross. I have not yet heard anything that negates the possibility it could be canon if the creators chose to recognize it.

I don't accept arguments that Earth doesn't look right or the composition of the fleet doesn't match expectations. The last time we saw Earth was when Isamu trashed Macross City in Mac+ in 2040. We don't see Earth in Mac 7 or Mac F. Since there is no evidence to the contrary I don't see why Earth in 2092 could not look like it does Mac II.

[RedWolf]

Since I started this thread I thought I'd drop in and see where it's going. The discussion is interesting but it's veered back into well covered territory.

If you read my initial question, I'm aware of SK/Studio Nue's non involvement. I'm not asking if Mac II is canon or why it's not canon. I"m asking if there is anything definitive in the actual on screen narrative in Mac II that makes it impossible to reconcile it with "canon" Macross. I have not yet heard anything that negates the possibility it could be canon if the creators chose to recognize it.

I don't accept arguments that Earth doesn't look right or the composition of the fleet doesn't match expectations. The last time we saw Earth was when Isamu trashed Macross City in Mac+ in 2040. We don't see Earth in Mac 7 or Mac F. Since there is no evidence to the contrary I don't see why Earth in 2092 could not look like it does Mac II.

Sigh... The fact that Macross II still relies on Minmay Attack defense against rouge Zentradi is pointless in canon Macross.

As seen with Quamzin and Laplamiz Zentradi can be cultured but still be rebellious and war like.

Exsedol himself said in the Fleet of Strongest Women the chances of a Minmay Attack is slim without individuals like Lynn Minmay.

There lies the difference. The two UN Spacy is of different opinions on the Minmay Attack.

UN Spacy in SK/Nue Macross does not use it as a crutch but the Macross II UN Spacy does.

[RichterX]

SDF Macross covers reconstruction, DYRL does not. Trying to match them up date wise won't work that way.

also technically DYRL ends in 2012 with Minmay's Sayonara concert showing us a fast forward reconstruction.

[TheLoneWolf]

also technically DYRL ends in 2012 with Minmay's Sayonara concert showing us a fast forward reconstruction.

Except that the Flashback footage wasn't added in to DYRL until 8 years later.

While the original storyboards called for a Minmay concert at the end of DYRL, nowhere does it state that it takes place after reconstruction or even in 2012. For all we know, that concert could've taken place a few months after DYRL.

[Zinjo]

Mac II cannot be placed into the Nue continuity without some primary changes to it's chronolgy & story.

Mac II:

- Could not take place on Earth.

- Could not realistically take place 80 years after SW1

- Would need an explanation as to why this world has no contact with the Galaxy Network (hence the need to develop their own mecha and capital ships).

- Could not have the original SDF-1 as it's Macross battleship

Unless these changes are implemented, the show is not compatible with the Nue universe.

[505thAirborne]

Mac II cannot be placed into the Nue continuity without some primary changes to it's chronolgy & story.

Mac II:

- Could not take place on Earth.

- Could not realistically take place 80 years after SW1

- Would need an explanation as to why this world has no contact with the Galaxy Network (hence the need to develop their own mecha and capital ships).

- Could not have the original SDF-1 as it's Macross battleship

Unless these changes are implemented, the show is not compatible with the Nue universe.

For MACROSS II to work:

-Its not Earth, its a new Colony planet. Called Magoniss

-Could easily take place 80 years later. ANIME...anythings possible with some imagination!!!

-Explanation....?? Macross?? How about lots of flashbacks. Seriously. Members of Macross II are a super deep space colony with few ties with any other UN SPACY affiliates due to decades of hostile wars, tremendous losses. They are all thats really left in there zone of the universe.

-Its the Macross II "Constellation". Hell in Mac Frontier we see the SDF-4 GLOBAL. (So we know there at least 4 SDF-1 type ships made.

-Music is still a viable weapon on both sides. Just like the Vajra, the Marduk get freaked by humans singing, but have their own music acceptance and music defense.

There, now we can make some sense of Macross II and stop treating it like "A drunk chick at a party" or a "Prom night dumpster baby"!!!

[Duke Togo]

I mean, we're talking about a civilization that is mass producing New Macross class warships. The 2059 NUNS would tear the Marduk to shreds.

[Duke Togo]

Hell in Mac Frontier we see the SDF-4 GLOBAL. (So we know there at least 4 SDF-1 type ships made.)

Here we go again. The Global is not the SDF-4, the Megaroad-03 is the SDF-4. Most likely the Global carries a designation like "Macross-04". It is a Macross Class vessel, not an SDF Class. No such thing as an SDF Class vessel. SDF is simply a designation.

[505thAirborne]

Technical or not, Still looks just like a SDF-1 to me. The point is it would explain why in Macross II they have a SDF-1 type, look a like ship. Say what you want, its still a Macross designed ship. You, me, everyone's thought in M Frontier was, how the hell did the SDF-1 get out here.... "Oh I see, they built other ships of the same design."

Also I know what the Megaroad ships are, wasn't talking about those.

The initial debate was how in Mac II world could there be a SDF-1. what I wrote was my imagination at work & thought on it.

Not based on a time line, no one seems to agree with.

[Nexx Stalker]

Since I started this thread I thought I'd drop in and see where it's going. The discussion is interesting but it's veered back into well covered territory.

If you read my initial question, I'm aware of SK/Studio Nue's non involvement. I'm not asking if Mac II is canon or why it's not canon. I"m asking if there is anything definitive in the actual on screen narrative in Mac II that makes it impossible to reconcile it with "canon" Macross. I have not yet heard anything that negates the possibility it could be canon if the creators chose to recognize it.

I don't accept arguments that Earth doesn't look right or the composition of the fleet doesn't match expectations. The last time we saw Earth was when Isamu trashed Macross City in Mac+ in 2040. We don't see Earth in Mac 7 or Mac F. Since there is no evidence to the contrary I don't see why Earth in 2092 could not look like it does Mac II.

I re-watched it completely yesterday, and that's why I revived the thread. Last time I saw it was several years ago (man, I had to take out my old VHSs and VCR!!! ), so I was curious and I paid special attention to dialogue and events to see if there was anything that could exclude the Macross II story from the actual continuity. Well, there wasn't.

It all felt perfectly fitting.

More fitting than ever, to be sincere. NUNS and the military being "outdated" (media control, appearance over real streaght, etc, all the things we began to see in the original Macross, and after that in M7 and now Frontier), the Macross Cannons/Macross Quarter, advance Valkyries with armor packs and drones, etc. The list could go on.

It is also interesting to note that at some point Ishtar confirms that the Marduke are a product of protoculture, making them a plausible part of the big picture (Ingues may very well be either a rogue Bodol-type fortress gone mad or - along with the Marduke and enslaved zentradi - a member of the infamous Supervision Army - The SDF1, called the Alus, is said to be a legendary Marduk ship, in fact).

But let's get back on track. I agree with DestroidDefender: nothing done or said during the episodes denies the existence of several worlds and colonization fleets nor any event from M7, Plus or Frontier. Nothing at all. There's even more to it: Isamu in Plus fights against a "possessed SDF1 which is clearly used as a sort of UN Headquarters. In MII the SDF1 is not used anymore but well kept, like a monument. It makes sense that after the Sharon Apple incident (the last time in a Macross production where Earth appears) the Spacy decided to decommission it.

To sum up: I liked it much more after all these years (mind you, I liked it even the first time, even if the animation of the first half of ep.6 is not good at all). Why did I enjoy it so much now? Because it felt absolutely Macross and, most of all, it felt wholly part of the big Macross saga.

Everyone is free to discard it as "non canon", but as a matter of fact, it shouldn't.

Here we go again. The Global is not the SDF-4, the Megaroad-03 is the SDF-4. Most likely the Global carries a designation like "Macross-04". It is a Macross Class vessel, not an SDF Class. No such thing as an SDF Class vessel. SDF is simply a designation.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the SDF4 is not the Megaroad 03. Strangely enough, the Megaroad 03 doesn't appear in the much debated opening scene (ep1) of Frontier. Coincidence? So your guess is as good as mine or anyone else. Maybe the Megaroad 03 found an inhabitable planet and the SDF4 was then used as an escort ship for a Science convoy in deep space. Who knows?

There's a whole thread devoted to this thing, let's keep the SDF4 argument in the place where it belongs.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[Duke Togo]

Maybe the Megaroad 03 found an inhabitable planet and the SDF4 was then used as an escort ship for a Science convoy in deep space. Who knows?

The Megaroad-03 IS the SDF-4.

[Nexx Stalker]

The Megaroad-03 IS the SDF-4.

To be honest, I must confess I don't care You're almost certainly right, but then the SDF4 is the Global.

We're talking MII here, pal, let's go back on topic!

[Mr March]

Macross II is Macross enough. It doesn't have to fit into the Macross history. It's got the valkyries, the music, the alien menace, the war story, the love story, et al. I may not have liked it, but it is Macrossy enough to be Macross. So what if it's a parallel world; no harm there.

Still, I'd personally prefer it if Macross II remained outside the Macross history. At this point, it's just too far out of sync with the main continuity and each sequel only pushes MII farther and farther away. The entire setting, the post-war development, the anachronistic technology, the lack of colonization, and so forth just rubs everything the wrong way. At this point, it's like Macross Frontier vs. Shadow Chronicles; the two have diverged to such a degree they are now totally different animals.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Mr March