Robotech and HG license debates

[Shawn]

Yes, lets please not bring this subject up anymore on these boards

[Robotech_Master]

How are these guys able to use the Robotech name without HG hounding them?

Robotech

Robotech Center

Because they're not making animated TV shows or transforming robot toys.

IANAL, but trademarks tend to have a limited breadth—they can only be protected against the use of businesses in the same or similar fields. McDonald's might be able to sue to prevent another restaurant calling itself McDonald's, even if that was the name of the person who founded it, but they'd be powerless to prevent someone opening up "McDonald's Ceiling Tile Repair."

Someone else trying to make a Robotech TV show would get into trouble with HG, but not a RoboTech youth technology workshop or a Robotech cable manufacturer. Perhaps HG could sue, at least in the case of the workshop, but it would probably cost them more money than shutting them down would really be worth.

[promethuem5]

This got moved to this thread by DA, so I'll repost the news bit here:

Hi all,

As I mentioned in the Destroid thread, I was curious why BBTS did not carry any of the Destroid line as I want to finally pick up a Tomahawk and usually buy from BBTS. When I asked about getting the 'Hawk or any other Destroids, I received the following... is this a development I missed, or news to other people as well?

QUOTE

Hi,

We won't be able to carry Yamato Macross items moving forward - Toynami owns the rights to Macross in the US and they have informed us that Yamato items are no longer allowed to be imported. Because we buy a lot of Toynami items, and have plans to buy much more in the future, we have to respect their request - sorry!

It also seems odd that this info kinda snuck under the radar... especially with BBTS still having some Yamato Valks on preorder... guess those will just never be filled and they'll never bother to tell anyone who doesn't ask.

[Valkyrie addict]

Hi all,

As I mentioned in the Destroid thread, I was curious why BBTS did not carry any of the Destroid line as I want to finally pick up a Tomahawk and usually buy from BBTS. When I asked about getting the 'Hawk or any other Destroids, I received the following... is this a development I missed, or news to other people as well?

Hi,

We won't be able to carry Yamato Macross items moving forward - Toynami owns the rights to Macross in the US and they have informed us that Yamato items are no longer allowed to be imported. Because we buy a lot of Toynami items, and have plans to buy much more in the future, we have to respect their request - sorry!

It also seems odd that this info kinda snuck under the radar... especially with BBTS still having some Yamato Valks on preorder... guess those will just never be filled and they'll never bother to tell anyone who doesn't ask.

passing the info here, this is interesting, Toynami can't restrict importing of Items from another company without a legal notice which I doubt they have, I think Toynami asked BBTS to stop importing Macross items since they appear to be a big supplier to them

[VFTF1]

RE: BBTS not allowed to import Macross items (http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=28505&st=0entry691700)

This does not surprise me.

Thankfully, I don't live in America any more, where you guys seem to have more and more bad news every day...

Anyways - this is not going to make Macross any cheaper for Americans, and it is terrible IMO. Toynami "owning" the rights to Macross is just utterly ridiculouos IMO, and them being able to essentially FORCE retailers to sell their products and ban Yamato is so un-American that it boggles the mind.

But there you have it.

I'd be enraged if I were living in America. As I don't live in the USA, I merely feel your pain and empathize. You guys have to start a petition drive, write your congressmen, do something - because this is just not right.

I can remotely understand how Toynami/HG can claim to "own" Macross in the sense of the original 36 episodes - aka "Robotech"...

But am I to understand that because Toynami "owns" Macross - then Americans can't get SV-51s? Or YF-19s?

This is retarded and somebody has to stop these people.

And what about Bandai USA? Will this mean no Macross: Frontier?

In my view - THIS is GREEDY. It is not competing in the open and free market and trying to make the best product you an and hoping people will buy it.

It's black mailing retailers during an economic downturn and essentially shoving your piss poor product down Americans' throats.

I'd be flaming mad if I still lived in the USA.

Pete

[promethuem5]

I responded to BBTS saying it was a shame HG/Toynami had made this move, and if only Toynami could justify the move by releasing some quality products to replace Yamato's

[TheLoneWolf]

promethuem5, thanks for the heads up.

It's like 2002 all over again, except this time Toynami is contacting large e-tailers instead of just small independent stores.

[Einherjar]

I'm surprised HG/Toynami still has the power to make a monopoly over the franchise, especially since they're working at a snail's pace to do anything new with it. Seems like they're untouchable even with the U.S. economy as it is. But then again, they're still getting money from fans desperately wanting new toys, merchandise and DVDs.

[Vostok 7]

promethuem5, thanks for the heads up.

It's like 2002 all over again, except this time Toynami is contacting large e-tailers instead of just small independent stores.

Yeah, I was going to say, deja vu.

Vostok 7

[bandit29]

I still can't believe this bs is still going on. BBTS has been importing Macross toys for years..

All of the companies involved in this licensing mess are to blame.

[sketchley]

I think this is more a case of "do it, or we won't sell to you" rather than "do it, and we'll litigate". At the very least, if the bluff is called, the consequences are immediate.

[Vostok 7]

I think this is more a case of "do it, or we won't sell to you" rather than "do it, and we'll litigate". At the very least, if the bluff is called, the consequences are immediate.

Either way it's unnecessary strong arm tactics from the Toynazi/Whoremoney Gold companies we all know and love. I mean, really, how much do you think Yamato takes away in sales from them? They both have so many loyal fans, it's only the Macross purists who they are pushing away. And their attempts to get them back just totally suck (1/100s, for instance).

Good job Toynazi/Whoremoney Gold, 5-6 years since the last time, most people were willing to forget (or just didn't know as evidenced by this and the other thread). Now you've pissed off a whole new "generation" of people.

Vostok 7

Edited December 15, 2008 by Vostok 7

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The question is, why now though?

[Rabidweezil]

I wonder if that's why Lost and Found toys hasn't added any of the new Yamato Pre-Orders to their site. I emailed Carlos a few weeks asking him if he was planning on getting any in and I didn't get a response.

I still find it amazing that HG still has reign over a license they have never had to renew. It seriously boggles my mind.

Regardless...there are plenty of online Japanese places that will still sell Yamato products to the US. So it looks like they will be getting my business. Way to go HG. The economy is hurting and you are blocking US sellers out of a product they could make a little money off.

Macross fans will find a way though. So this tactic will prove to be pretty useless in the end. I was thinking of ordering the Beta fighter. But since I'll have to pay a little more on shipping from Japan now for Yamato products, that just cut into my Toynami fund. Darn

[promethuem5]

I followed up with BBTS, and they assured me any products currently listed will be honored, including the MacF related preorders and stuff like the YF-19 and 21 Revoltechs (all of which I have on preorder).

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I followed up with BBTS, and they assured me any products currently listed will be honored, including the MacF related preorders and stuff like the YF-19 and 21 Revoltechs (all of which I have on preorder).

The question now, is Toynami just blocking Yamato, or Bandai too?

[promethuem5]

Looks like just Yamato, based on the fact that my Chogokin DX Alto preorder is AOK.

[Hikuro]

What a bunch of crap, if I owned a store and had thei rproduct out there and they told me "You can't sell this, if you do we wont give you our product" I'd just laugh and say "Ok, your loss".

I haven't even actually bought a Toynami product in years and when I do, I'm generally disappointed by it. It makes me want to write up a letter telling them if they want a big slab of the pie they need to lower their prices and make better on their production time.

[TheLoneWolf]

The question now, is Toynami just blocking Yamato, or Bandai too?

Since Toynami and Bandai/Tamashi worked out an agreement earlier this year to release 1/55's in the US, I'm pretty sure Bandai is ok.

The question is, why now though?

Unlike in 2002, Toynami is now large enough (their portfolio now extends far beyond Macross/Robotech) to throw some weight around. Back then, they were still a small company and could only pressure other small companies.

[David Hingtgen]

BBTS must sell a LOT of Voltrons to make Toynami "worth more to them" than Yamato. I mean, if it's one or the other, I'm surprised that Toynami sells more apparently. (maybe there's just that many hardcore Robotech fans that really want Rick and Miriya toys, despite the availability of far superior Hikaru and Milia options...)

PS---since this is page 50 of a resurrected thread, who's in favor of splitting off the new posts into a new thread?

[Mr March]

Yeah, this doesn't sound like another legal storm. All this sounds like is Toynami strong-arming one of the few e-tailers over which they know they have an advantage. Toynami probably sells a lot through Big Bad Toy Store, so when forced with an ultimatum, the BBTS owners figure they can afford to lose Yamato sales a lot easier than they can lose Toynami sales. Regardless, I bet this pisses off BBTS, since no matter what they choose, Toynami just costed BBTS a bunch of money in an already difficult time.

Why now? I'd guess the reason is the economic downturn. Toynami staff have probably been given a kick in the backside and told to find/secure revenue where ever they can. Now would be the time to squeeze every last penny out of every conceivable source. If that means ruining import options for hundreds of Yamato fans in the desperate hope that a lack of Yamato products will mean a small fraction of consumers turn to Toynami products, then that's what Toynami will do.

[Einherjar]

Why now? I'd guess the reason is the economic downturn. Toynami staff have probably been given a kick in the backside and told to find/secure revenue where ever they can. Now would be the time to squeeze every last penny out of every conceivable source. If that means ruining import options for hundreds of Yamato fans in the desperate hope that a lack of Yamato products will mean a small fraction of consumers turn to Toynami products, then that's what Toynami will do.

If that's true, I wonder what Harmony Gold is going through right now.

[VFTF1]

I followed up with BBTS, and they assured me any products currently listed will be honored, including the MacF related preorders and stuff like the YF-19 and 21 Revoltechs (all of which I have on preorder).

Which means Macross Frontier is not welcome in America either.

GREAT JOB Harmony Gold! Way to go...

This is a horrible situation.

I hope that with Bandai as the new sponsor for Macross Frontier, that they will fight to put Macross Frontier on toonami and bring Macross items to America.

This is just ridiculous.

You guys should write mass emails to BBTS not to allow itself to be strong armed like this... although - I guess they made the decision for one of two (or both) reasons:

a) because perhaps Yamato Macross was not as big a seller and certainly not as profitable as Toynami

b) because they were afraid of incurring legal liability (no company wants a lawsuit and the last thing a retailer needs in this economy is a lawsuit)

Still - this is why it is really in the hands of Macross fans in the USA. Go to it guys!

You have every right to celebrate Macross as it was originally concieved. It's a constituional right - it's a first amendment right - people can't tell you that you can't talk about and celebrate Macross as it was originally concieved. They can't.

You know what - the court is just wrong here because we are dealing with two distinct properties. Macross as concieved of originally in Japan and all of its' derivates (the Japanese Macross universe) and Macross as part of an American mish-mash created in the 80s called Robotech and continued today.

Two completely seperate universes.

Giving Harmony Gold these rights is like giving the Chinese bootleggers who make those fake G1 molds the rights to Transformers. It's ridiculous.

I mean? What? Are you supposed to just not know about Macross? Erase it from your mind? Forget about it?

I'm not personally affected since I don't live in the USA, but I'd be livid if I still did. I'd definitely try to get a petition going or write some letters to congressmen and to retailers and to anybody who would listen.

Harmony Gold does not have the right to dictate how you enjoy anime.

When somebody asks you about your SV-51 or your YF-19 are you supposed to say "These are illegal Robotech bootlegs" and then throw them away?

Does this mean that in future, any amazing cool stuff that you think is worthy of your attention but happens to come from Japan and be done by Kawamorii under the Macross banner is supposed to be off limits to you?

Somebody - as in a consumer - should sue Harmony Gold for restricting consumer choice and hobbling the market.

Grumble

Pete

[Roger]

Somebody - as in a consumer - should sue Harmony Gold for restricting consumer choice and hobbling the market.

Yeah, because that's going to be a) very profitable, b) create tremendous benefits for the collector community, and c) make the person suing look like someone who really has their priorities straight.

(that was sarcasm)

Firstly, you people complaining are hypocrites. You loved it when Toynami was making DYRL-style versions of their toys and when they announced that they were going to import Bandai's Valkyrie reissues. However, when they make a request that one retailer not import competing products, you hate it.

Secondly, if you haven't noticed this already, you are using THE INTERNET. This is a wonderful tool that connects you to countless outlets around the world that will sell import toys to you at excellent prices. There is nothing stopping you from using those stores instead of BBTS. This is like finding out that gas stations won't carry bubble gum. There are still a dozen places within walking distance of your house where you can still buy bubble gum.

Thirdly, all of you who are using the name "Toynazi" are automatically negating any substance your arguments might have had. Godwin's Law.

[Vostok 7]

Yeah, because that's going to be a) very profitable, b) create tremendous benefits for the collector community, and c) make the person suing look like someone who really has their priorities straight.

(that was sarcasm)

Firstly, you people complaining are hypocrites. You loved it when Toynami was making DYRL-style versions of their toys and when they announced that they were going to import Bandai's Valkyrie reissues. However, when they make a request that one retailer not import competing products, you hate it.

Secondly, if you haven't noticed this already, you are using THE INTERNET. This is a wonderful tool that connects you to countless outlets around the world that will sell import toys to you at excellent prices. There is nothing stopping you from using those stores instead of BBTS. This is like finding out that gas stations won't carry bubble gum. There are still a dozen places within walking distance of your house where you can still buy bubble gum.

Thirdly, all of you who are using the name "Toynazi" are automatically negating any substance your arguments might have had. Godwin's Law.

You've obviously got no idea what we as a community have been through because of TOYNAZI. Yes, I will say TOYNAZI again because that's exactly who they are.

In 2002, Toynazi and Whoremoney Gold went out of their way to SUE several respected members of this board who had small collector-focused toy companies for selling and even listing imported Macross toys as being for sale. Most of them went out of business because of this (Blasto! Toys, Valkyrie-Exchange), putting good people who were Macross fans and only helping the Macross community out of business simply because they wanted to strong arm their position as the only outlet for Macross/Robotech.

And here they are doing it again, now, to bigger retailers. And trust me, there's no hypocrisy with me. I NEVER have supported a Toynazi/Whoremoney Gold product, save for a couple things I bought that they made before the **** hit the fan in 2002 (a super (non)posable VF-1A CF and some of their super-deformed Alphas). Their products SUCK, and I would never give them a PENNY even if they were begging for one on a corner somewhere.

Yes, there are other places to get these products. But Toynazi/Whoremoney Gold has made it painfully obvious that they only care about stopping grey imports of Macross products at whatever cost. What's next, suing everyone on this board who's posted a collection photo that includes Macross products not sold by them? Suing people who are selling Macross products inside the US on eBay and these forums? I mean, that's the next logical progression of their strong-arming. They've long proved that they're practically the RIAA of Macross products, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Vostok 7

Edited December 15, 2008 by Vostok 7

[jenius]

I thought Kevin shut down Valk Exchange to focus on his family... could be wrong though. And didn't the Blasto guy steal a bunch of people's money from the board allegedly to fight HG and then disappeared? Typically companies don't come right out with a lawsuit, they send you a C&D. HG is within its rights so this anger seems unfounded. The one thing I really hate... and don't know who to blame... was that the Jokemachine 2.0 project got shut down. Those things looked sweet but something happened with someone that shut it all down.

[Vostok 7]

I thought Kevin shut down Valk Exchange to focus on his family... could be wrong though. And didn't the Blasto guy steal a bunch of people's money from the board allegedly to fight HG and then disappeared? Typically companies don't come right out with a lawsuit, they send you a C&D. HG is within its rights so this anger seems unfounded. The one thing I really hate... and don't know who to blame... was that the Jokemachine 2.0 project got shut down. Those things looked sweet but something happened with someone that shut it all down.

I still say they're Toynazi.

And I know Kevin was sent a nasty letter by HG back in the day. As far as spideyjerusalem, everyone just assumes he made off with the money. He never let everyone know what was going on. He seemed like a good guy to me, I don't know why he would have taken off with everyone's money.

Vostok 7

[Roger]

I still say they're Toynazi.

Well, at least you're willing to discuss things reasonably.

Today we learned that getting a letter in the mail does not mean that you've been "sued." ;p

[Mr March]

LOL Some guy started a legal fund against HG and then ran off with the money? I never heard that one. Is it true or just some urban legend?

[DarkHawk]

It seems that with the popularity of macross f in the states, HG wants to ride the coat-tails in order to cross-merchandise the robotech MPCs. Ultimately, HG is going to shoot themselves and Toynami in the collective foot because all they are doing are creating a LOT of bad press. This is just an opinion though.

[yellowlightman]

I still say they're Toynazi.

Because comparing a toy company to a facist regime that caused the murder of millions of people is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

And I know Kevin was sent a nasty letter by HG back in the day. As far as spideyjerusalem, everyone just assumes he made off with the money. He never let everyone know what was going on. He seemed like a good guy to me, I don't know why he would have taken off with everyone's money.

Because pocketing a bunch of money is probably worth more than a presence on a message board, I'd expect.

[Impreszive]

Reading stuff like this makes me very happy that I have a contact at Sasebo. He can get pretty much anything I can ask for (and can afford). I have had about enough of this crap with HG and Toynami "blocking" like this. I think the only thing you can really do is vote with your wallet and not shop a BBTS. If they are willing to cave like that, then they don't need your money. Seems simple enough to me.

[Roger]

It seems that with the popularity of macross f in the states, HG wants to ride the coat-tails in order to cross-merchandise the robotech MPCs. Ultimately, HG is going to shoot themselves and Toynami in the collective foot because all they are doing are creating a LOT of bad press. This is just an opinion though.

The people that care about both things (Macross Frontier in the US and Toynami's "bad press") probably couldn't fill a school bus. That's my opinion.

[Einherjar]

Voting with your wallet is probably the best way to go. However, if this business with BBTS was just the beginning for HG/Toynami, it's may get harder for many Macross fans. Roger is right about the hundreds/thousands of e-shops selling the same things, but who knows if they'll be the next targets for both companies just to keep their piece of the pie.

[AcroRay]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Toynami might be asserting rights to the domestic distro of official Macross product because they're gearing up for a domestic release of MacrossF products and media?

"Don't by Toynami's [officially licensed, developed in cooperation with Bandai and the domestic license holder] Macross stuff. That'll show 'em we support Macross in the US! Nya!"

Really...

Edited December 15, 2008 by AcroRay