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Mission 1: Prologue on the Battlefield  

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Just watched it... well, glad you guys are liking it. Wish I did. :(

Way too much over the top cheese ballz stuff for me. Frontier was pushing my boundaries, but this takes me over the edge.

I want my new Macross to feel more like Yamato 2199.

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^

I think that's the problem right there . People are equating Macross with a genre it doesn't belong in. Macross is not in the same genre as Yamato or Legend of Galactic Heroes. I think what happened is space opera/hard sci fi buffs was attracted to the mecha/ship aspects of the show and thought that was the show was about. They didn't think music and idols were something integral to the franchise. They seem to have selective amnesia because SDF huge bouts of ridiculousness.

tuna scene

VF dressed up as Zentradi

Hikaru riding a bike to the stars

crossdressing Zentradi

quality knife fight to marriage in one episode

lighting a cigar with a gunpod

Kamjin shenanigans

tossing a baby around

Edited by PrimumMobile

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I'm okay with how the first episode turned out as I've said this show feels like an amalgalm of previous Kawamori's shows. The only thing that bothers me is Hayates Valkyrie fight scene. How is Freyja not tomato paste after being "protected" by Hayate from the bad guys during his rolling around on the ground break dance fight routine? He's holding her in his non cushioned giant robot hands, doing high speed spin and stop attacks, bouncing his hands up and down quickly. Freyja's wearing normal clothes, not the fancy songstress inertia dampening gear Walkure is wearing, her upper body and head are not braced in the hand at all. She should be at the very least experiencing major whiplash.

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^

You can't criticize that if you are not going to criticize when the exact same thing happened in SDF Episode one. It was a homage. Minmay should have been paste too.

Edited by PrimumMobile

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I guess Windermerans are just that tough.

But yea that broke my suspension a bit as well

^

you can't criticize that if you are not going to criticize the exact same thing happened in SDF Episode one. It was a homage. Minmay should have been paste too.

What Hikaru did with Minmei in hand wasn't nearly as crazy.

Edited by Raptor One

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I guess Windermerans are just that tough.

But yea that broke my suspension a bit as well

What Hikaru did with Minmei in hand wasn't nearly as crazy.

Exactly. Hikaru flying in mostly straight lines with his mechs arm locked in a horizontal position vs Hayate spinning like a centrifuge and bouncing dancing are not that similar. Minmei at least had a chance of bracing herself.

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Maybe Macross exists in an alternate reality where humans can withstand significantly higher G-loads than real people can, but it's completely normal for them so it's never brought up. Or maybe Valks Just have Luxuriously soft and cushy hands.

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To me Macross is more of a space opera. Many Japanese seem to agree since Macross and Macross F pop up in the space opera categories of even many Japanese websites.

Sure, there were silly moments in Macross, but that doesn't detract that it's still a war story and it fits right along with other 80's sci-fi series like Southern Cross or Mospeada.

Of course just because I see it as that doesn't mean I expect others to as well.

I think that instead of defining the franchise for us and telling us the Macross we like "isn't Macross" (that's pretty arrogant) and calling us "oldtaku", maybe some people need to think of Macross as a diverse franchise that has individual parts / aspects that appeal to different audiences.

A lot of people got into macross via DYRL, Mac Plus or even Mac F so it's not really a surprise they like different things about the series.

with that in mind.....
Macross Delta's first episode just didn't have anything that really grabbed at me. I'm sure it's half because I'm not a AKB48 fan and I don't like the idea of girls with mystical musical powers also being smack in the middle of combat blocking and dodging missiles, but I'm also sure it's half because they crammed too much into the first episode.
I don't feel like there's enough time in 25 minutes to have any meaningful character interaction or story development when they introduce like 15 primary characters (delta squad, walkure, Aerial Knights) and already have them battling their arch nemesis before the end of the first episode (at least Mac F waited a bit before Alto and Brera really began to fight and Brera had that mysterious vibe going for him for quite a while)
Add to that Hayate is an unemployed (within the first 5 minutes) slacker prodigy pilot who's not really a likable character (yet).
Oh well, it's just one episode. It's not fair to compare complete 36-episode (SDFM) or 25-episode (MacF) series to what's currently out yet for mac D.
I just hope I'm not rolling my eyes still at Episode 25 :p
Edited by Duymon

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^

I think that's the problem right there . People are equating Macross with a genre it doesn't belong in.

That's nonsense. A handful of episodes of light-heartedness don't set the tone for the entire series. Nothing says "whimsical" like an idol singer getting slapped around by her abusive manager/cousin/whatever, who is a drunk, while trying to rebuild civilization in the ruins of humanity. Good times. Or our hero's sempai bleeding out on the couch of his girlfriend. Or hundreds of thousands of civilians being obliterated in what amounts to a military accident when a shield overloads on our beloved SDF-1. Or any one of a thousand things that actually set a fairly serious tone for the series.

Some of you guys really need to go back and rewatch SDF Macross (or, perhaps, watch it for the first time). Certainly, the franchise has evolved and diversified since then, but to say the original didn't have a serious tone is revisionist nonsense.

Edit: heck, i totally forgot to mention that our idol was used as a weapon of psychological warfare.

Edited by Duke Togo

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Exactly. Hikaru flying in mostly straight lines with his mechs arm locked in a horizontal position vs Hayate spinning like a centrifuge and bouncing dancing are not that similar. Minmei at least had a chance of bracing herself.

post-1819-0-41881400-1460119019_thumb.jpg

Now that's just moving the goal posts.

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BTW, why do people keep comparing Walkure with AKB48? It's like AKB48 was the only Asian girl group you guys have ever heard of. There not even that similar in format.

Edited by anime52k8

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BTW, why do people keep comparing Walkure with AKB48? It's like AKB48 was the only Asian girl group you guys have ever heard of. there not even that similar in format.

They're talking about the anime, which Kawamori worked on.

Edited by Duke Togo

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They're talking about the anime, which Kawanori worked on.

^^^ What He said.

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That's nonsense. A handful of episodes of light-heartedness don't set the tone for the entire series. Nothing says "whimsical" like an idol singer getting slapped around by her abusive manager/cousin/whatever, who is a drunk, while trying to rebuild civilization in the ruins of humanity. Good times. Or our hero's sempai bleeding out on the couch of his girlfriend. Or hundreds of thousands of civilians being obliterated in what amounts to a military accident when a shield overloads on our beloved SDF-1. Or any one of a thousand things that actually set a fairly serious tone for the series.

Some of you guys really need to go back and rewatch SDF Macross (or, perhaps, watch it for the first time). Certainly, the franchise has evolved and diversified since then, but to say the original didn't have a serious tone is revisionist nonsense.

Edit: heck, i totally forgot to mention that our idol was used as a weapon of psychological warfare.

I don't think it's "revisionist nonsense". It depends on what frame of reference people had when they watched Macross. For anime viewers in Japan coming off Zambot 3, Gundam, Ideon etc. just prior to SDFM, and following it with Votoms, Layzner, etc... Yeah, it is comparatively rather light-hearted in tone. It is like a fun, soft filling sandwiched in between a lot of doom-laden anime series that are rather depressing in comparison, really. If, on the other hand, you are comparing it to Transformers, Thundercats, Silverhawks, MASK and Thundarr the Barbarian, then, yes, it looks like a militaristic hard SF space opera.

Edit -- Let me take it a little further. Delta is a lot more military/hard SF/space opera-like than Adventure Time, Legend of Korra, Family Guy and Steven Universe, etc..

Edited by Renato

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Maybe Macross exists in an alternate reality where humans can withstand significantly higher G-loads than real people can, but it's completely normal for them so it's never brought up. Or maybe Valks Just have Luxuriously soft and cushy hands.

Remember I'm the first series, Hikaru jumped from what looked like a three story tower during training and there's a lot of scenes where a pilot will jump straight into a cockpit while it's in Gerwalk. I don't think it's so much physics or science but it just gives certain characters a bit of cool factor or shows whimsy for that certain scene, just because they can get away with it in animation. You can almost compare it to when a cowboy jumps straight onto a horse's back from a second story balcony on old westerns or characters jumping from roof to roof in kung fu movies.

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goalposts.jpg

Now that's just moving the goal posts.

How so? Hikaru and Minmei is like riding a motorcycle fast. Hayate and Freyja is like bumper cars except motorcycle fast and 360 degrees of movement.

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I pulled up some JP macross blogs and twitter... the japanese feedback in regards to AKB-similarity is pretty funny

==================

AKB0048の3期が始まったかと思ったwww
I thought the 3rd season of AKB started lol
マクロスの放送時間だと思ってたらAKB0048だったんだが。
It was time to watch macross but I was seeing AKB
歌姫が戦うせいで、すごくAKBっぽい
っていうか、今の河森がやりたいのがああいうことなのかな?
Battling Songstresses, totally AKB-like. Is this the direction Kawamori wants to go?
むしろ、女だけのマクロスは見てみたいな
ただ、AKBみたいにするのは勘弁な
Like really? It's like all girly girl macross. Making it like AKB48...Gimme a break.
AKB0048を思い出すなあ。
やっぱヒロインは2人位がちょうどいいです。多すぎると覚えられない←
Reminds me of AKB0048. Two heroines are prolly the best. If there are too many it's hard to remember
AKBをパワーアップした感じ
It's like AKB got a power up
なんでAKBの画像があるの?
Why am I seeing AKB?
アニメのAKBみたい
マクロスっぽくない
This cartoon is more AKB. Not macross-y
これAKB0048ってやつだろ?
This is an AKB thing right?
マクロスじゃないとしても、逆にAKBっぽくって珍しさもない
It's not macross, it's more AKB and not so special
なんでAKB0048混ざってんの
Why they mixing AKB0048 (with macross) ?
とりあえずAKB0048みたいにはなってほしくない。
For the time being I dont' want this becoming AKB0048
Edited by Duymon

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For me Macross falls into these groups.

Awesome! I am 8 and then 16 and this is blowing my mind.

SDFM

DYRL
Macross Plus

High Average: Tone felt right, I really want to like it, but kinda feels "off".
Macross Zero

Low Average: A 60/40 mix of "Meh" to "pretty bad ass!"

Macross Frontier

Too Silly: "Get off my lawn you damn kids"

Macross 7

and so far Macross Delta

Edited by Mechinyun

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I don't think it's "revisionist nonsense". It depends on what frame of reference people had when they watched Macross. For anime viewers in Japan coming off Zambot 3, Gundam, Ideon etc. just prior to SDFM, and following it with Votoms, Layzner, etc... Yeah, it is comparatively rather light-hearted in tone. It is like a fun, soft filling sandwiched in between a lot of doom-laden anime series that are rather depressing in comparison, really. If, on the other hand, you are comparing it to Transformers, Thundercats, Silverhawks, MASK and Thundarr the Barbarian, then, yes, it looks like a militaristic hard SF space opera.

Edit -- Let me take it a little further. Delta is a lot more military/hard SF/space opera-like than Adventure Time, Legend of Korra, Family Guy and Steven Universe, etc..

Renato, to this I would reply everyone needs to go back and rewatch the first four or five episodes. For every instance of Roy being a lecher and "no smoking on the bridge," there are ten instances of deadly seriousness. And yes, I understand that relative to animes x,y, and z from that period it might be more lighthearted, but to pass it off as some idol show with mecha (not you) is grossly inaccurate. They tackle serious issues in Macross, and deal with the high cost of war on a regular basis.

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Renato, to this I would reply everyone needs to go back and rewatch the first four or five episodes. For every instance of Roy being a lecher and "no smoking on the bridge," there are ten instances of deadly seriousness. And yes, I understand that relative to animes x,y, and z from that period it might be more lighthearted, but to pass it off as some idol show with mecha (not you) is grossly inaccurate. They tackle serious issues in Macross, and deal with the high cost of war on a regular basis.

My impression of Macross (in general) is that they mix serious stuff with lighthearted stuff. It is just how the viewer perceives it.

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My impression of Macross (in general) is that they mix serious stuff with lighthearted stuff. It is just how the viewer perceives it.

This is true, but if you put silly vs serious on a scale - the scale is tipping way to far on the silly/wtf side.

If suddenly the anime was turned into a live action movie, would it be watchable? I could see SDFM holding its own, same with Plus, but Delta so far? I feel like Delta so far would feel similar to a Michael Bay Transformers movie.

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This is true, but if you put silly vs serious on a scale - the scale is tipping way to far on the silly/wtf side.

If suddenly the anime was turned into a live action movie, would it be watchable? I could see SDFM holding its own, same with Plus, but Delta so far? I feel like Delta so far would feel similar to a Michael Bay Transformers movie.

You are right about that regarding the balance between silly and serious. As for where I come from, I watch Macross for the more serious bits (such as the battles) while (mostly) ignoring the silly parts. That is why I have no problem with Delta even though other people who like Macross for the seriousness aspect have a hard time suspending their disbelief.

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My impression of Macross (in general) is that they mix serious stuff with lighthearted stuff. It is just how the viewer perceives it.

Sure, but they're not in balance. One can point out the humor in the space tuna scene, but they can't forget that shortly thereafter Minmay proposes that instead of facing starvation, they throw themselves out into space to commit suicide together. Not so "ha ha."

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I love SDF Macross but its no more a gritty war drama than Lord of the Rings or Avatar the last Airbender. If you want real Space Opera than watch Legend of Galactic Heroes or Yamato. Macross so pales in comparison to those. If SDF Macross is your idea of a gritty war drama and hard sci fi then your better increase the amount of literature. I even think Frontier is a lot "grittier" than SDF. Zentradi are one of the hokiest alien invaders Ive ever seen.

Edited by PrimumMobile

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Go to your local movie theater and watch whatever serious drama is currently playing. Even that movie will have jokes and light hearted moments in them. Nothing is ever 100% serious or silly. A few jokes doesn't make something a comedy. The 1st Macross series was never a dead serious show nor was it silly. It was right in the middle. Maybe it leaned more towards the more serious side because it was about war and nuclear destruction of all life.

Over the decades Macross has move far away from the serious. This might just be what currently sales in Japan. We might not all like it. The people making it might not even like it but Macross is a business. Whatever version Macross gets them their key viewing demographic is the version that we're going to get.

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SDFM was a bit silly in certain aspect, but the core of the show was very mature and that's what most people enjoy about it. You could enjoy it as a kid seeing cool giant robots in space battles and as an adult understanding what the characters are going trough. Yes, the premise was over the top, transforming aircraft designed to battle giant humanoid aliens that were ultimately defeated by "feelings" from a song. But deep inside it dealt with commitment, maturing, tragedy and love within a war, keeping it somewhat hone in a kind of real world within the fantasy.

I understand such formula for a new Macross show may never be made again, but saying SDFM was silly so any future Macross show has to be silly and I just have to accept it is exaggerating the issue. My POV with this show is the same as with Frontier, the show is being sponsored by Bandai and is made ultimately to sell lots and lots of toys, I will accept this new show as it is, I doubt it will be another SDFM/DRYL hit story and character wise but I have an open mind to enjoy new things, I will probably not be getting any merchandise from the series either or be rewatching this like I sometimes do with SDFM/DYRL/FB2012/PLUS.

I'm just happy there's more Macross to see and enjoy and will always keep the hope that an OVA would be made in the future with a more mature premise.

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You guys are nuts if you think this show isn't going to be serious and play its setting straight. Even M7, the previous pariah for the grity-type Macross fan, doesn't forget its universe is serious and has consequences it had character growth and serious themes. I say this as a person who does think the power of music kinda got a bit to sci-fi-magical and out of hand in some ways. If Delta is tripping you in ways 7, Zero, or even Frontier didn't...I think you're in denial about what you've really liked about the series.

SDFM's run started from (and maintained) a pretty lighthearted and silly place compared to its mecha/space opera contemporaries and I think it managed to have more depth of character than most of them.

Frankly I've found some of the shows that use silly premises and settings to be some of the more serious emotional shows I've seen. Mawaru Penguidrum comes to mind, totally ridiculous, but really damn serious too. Or, perhaps with more in common to Macross, Martian Successor Nadessico (which I've mostly felt is Macross's closest cousin, rather than Gundam).

But deep inside it dealt with commitment, maturing, tragedy and love within a war, keeping it somewhat hone in a kind of real world within the fantasy.

There is no reason to believe Delta doesn't fall in line with that concept. Nearly all Kawamori shows do to some extent. It's been one episode - a city/place is getting attacked, some dude gets in a VF and tries to save the day to some degree. This is par for the course in all of the Macross TV shows so far.

Edited by Rbstr

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@Valk addict

Are you implying that Frontier had no character drama about growing up and is all flash? Is that how you feel about modern Macross? The first episode of Delta already sets up a character arc fot Freyja and Hayate. Did Freyja and Hayate's talk about finding purpose lost on you? I felt that is pretty compelling stuff.

Edited by PrimumMobile

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Let me also point out that no other Macross series starts out with a guy suicide bombing an oncoming train.

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I don't think it's "revisionist nonsense". It depends on what frame of reference people had when they watched Macross. For anime viewers in Japan coming off Zambot 3, Gundam, Ideon etc. just prior to SDFM, and following it with Votoms, Layzner, etc... Yeah, it is comparatively rather light-hearted in tone. It is like a fun, soft filling sandwiched in between a lot of doom-laden anime series that are rather depressing in comparison, really.

And let's not forget that even Layzner, a series coveted by western fans for being a "serious" mecha show, goes from being a fairly somber story of children trying to escape from an unstoppable threat to being like one of those Italian Mad Max knock-off post apocalyptic movies. Complete with ax-wielding thugs wearing giant wigs and hockey masks like Lord Humongous. And that's before the show gets into ancient alien space magic.

post-1819-0-92132400-1460132732_thumb.png

And sure, Macross blasted the Earth, but Gundam killed off half the human population in its opening narration. Space Battleship Yamato opened with the planet being a nuclear wasteland. Dancouga has Earth's military forces being squashed in a matter of minutes with fiery death. This is just an aspect of the genre. When people talk about the three pillars of Macross, they don't mention the wanton destruction because that isn't what made the series stand out. And as far as "seriousness" is concerned, ZZ Gundam starts off punk kids trying to steal a Gundam, yet eventually has very heavy situations involving things like colony drops and a deadly civil war between Neo Zeon factions. And this is while the show continued to have a 10 year-old physic girl be a major character. So I really don't see how battlefield idols is an impassible wall for Delta reaching the same levels of emotional resonance as any other Macross series (or anime in general).

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Let me also point out that no other Macross series starts out with a guy suicide bombing an oncoming train.

THANK YOU.

I've been sitting here reading through the recent posts about how silly and completely un-serious Macross Delta is and going "wait, didn't this episode open with some dude suicide bombing a tram and the narrator telling us there's a literal epidemic of that kind of thing going on galaxy-wide?" Macross is known for being "lighter and softer" than many mecha shows, but even for Gundam the idea of an enemy that can override the will of large numbers of people and turn them all into psychotic spree-killers or willing suicide bombers at a distance is some seriously dark stuff.

The only previous Macross title to have something like that was the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA, and even though it only worked on the specially-brainwashed Zentradi clone soldiers under Mardook control (and who were regarded as disposable equipment rather than people) the Mardook themselves regarded the use of that ability (the Song of Death) as grotesque overkill and being ordered to do so as their leadership having jumped off the slippery slope to such an extent that many of the fleet's song priestesses refused orders for the first time in their lives.

Apparently whoever's pulling the strings behind the Aerial Knights of planet Windermere has no such compunctions... which would make him or her (or maybe it? we'll find out) the closest Macross has come to an antagonist who's a complete monster. (And that's saying something, considering previous antagonists include dictatorial despots, genocidal clone soldiers, and literal space monsters...)

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That's nonsense. A handful of episodes of light-heartedness don't set the tone for the entire series. Nothing says "whimsical" like an idol singer getting slapped around by her abusive manager/cousin/whatever, who is a drunk, while trying to rebuild civilization in the ruins of humanity. Good times. Or our hero's sempai bleeding out on the couch of his girlfriend. Or hundreds of thousands of civilians being obliterated in what amounts to a military accident when a shield overloads on our beloved SDF-1. Or any one of a thousand things that actually set a fairly serious tone for the series.

Some of you guys really need to go back and rewatch SDF Macross (or, perhaps, watch it for the first time). Certainly, the franchise has evolved and diversified since then, but to say the original didn't have a serious tone is revisionist nonsense.

Edit: heck, i totally forgot to mention that our idol was used as a weapon of psychological warfare.

What's to say that future episodes of Delta won't venture down the grittier paths you mention?

Kawamori already alluded to the fact that later episodes would vary in tone.

There could be a decision to nuke a whole city in the future because Var has surpassed Walkure's ability to suppress it, or they were tasked elsewhere and a tough executive decision has to be made.

There are some well made points and valid arguments in this thread but imhop the negativity is OTT considering how much we have seen so far.

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We all know that Macross as franchise changed over time, SDFM DYRL are classic animes with great history, great character development, good music, love triangle and by the time it was made, really good animated battle scenes , ahhh and mecha designs. The tone of the anime was balanced, some silly things happen (all mentioned above), but a lot of very serious things and some humor as well. Flashbacks 2012, even as a musical is more serious than Delta (at least for the moment).

M + is no different from DYRL or SDFM, is in the same tone (I'm not talking about budget), only uses other characters with different personalities, the music is good, although not on the same level of importance it had in SDFM or DYRL, but it's there.


M7 mmm ... here things start to change, Basara pilots his VF-19 with a guitar as controls and singing at the same time, it is not a good thing, the whole band piloting their own Valks playing and singing is terrible, but M7 still has a certain sense of Macross, I'm seeing for the second time M7 (episode 28), just because Delta seems to be very similar to it, but I'm thinking that is very different.


Zero, mmm Zero is a different thing, start with one of the best scenes of aerial combat all Macross and in tune with SDFM and M +, but the last 2 episodes were not so good, but I like Zero. The design of the Valkyries was pretty good, the dogfights were great, music is not a big deal and the story a bit strange, but is held in the end.


Frontier, a little softer in tone than the other Macross, but the music is acceptable, (Diamond Crevasse is great song), nice Valkyries, good enemy, good plot at the end. Frontier has some problems, but overall is much better than M7.




Delta in only 1 episode feels totally different, I know you have all the above mentioned elements that are similar to SDFM, but no need to have a scene of transformation of 4 girls, there is no need for the Valkyries dance (really) , you do not need stupid formations to leave the girls in the middle of a battle, that is not Macross at all, at least not that I knew.


I saw Sailor Moon in the 90's (I know there's a new one), also saw Sakura Card Captor, I have no problem at all with this kind of anime, but the fusion of Macross and Sailor Moon is not a good thing in my opinion, They do not mix well at all.


As I said before, I hope Delta improves with time, but do not think this is the case.

Edited by joscasle

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