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55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To be entirely fair, Max and Milia were dodging bog-standard Zentradi Army ordnance designed to engage relatively slow-moving targets.  Guld might've done it in a newer fighter, but what was being fired at him was the UN Spacy's state-of-the-art air-to-air high-maneuverability missile intended to bring down high-performance VFs.

Guld's qualifications weren't anything to sneeze at either.  He had a Special A qualification from the UN Forces as a civilian operator.

I didn't really mean to denigrate Guld's skills there.. it was really just a set up for the ace joke. I'm fully aware Guld is no slouch, he would not have held off the Ghost as long as he did if he weren't.

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1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

This makes me think: What is the strength of micromissiles through the Macross ages? Are they designed such that a single one has the strength to take out a same-era or perhaps slightly older VF, or are they designed ONLY to work as part of a barrage? I'd imagine the former is the case (and the miniaturization just allows for mass firing without regard to ammo conservation), but it would be interesting if the latter were the case, and why and how they would develop their tech around that strategy...

Well, for starters, one must take into consideration who the micro missiles are intended to be fired at.

  • The VF-0/Sv-51: each other (+ conventional human fighters) & Zentradi
  • VF-1~: Zentradi
  • VF-11~: Zentradi and other VFs (mainly other VFs).

They appear to be designed for short range, swarm attacks.  The explosive power of one missile is probably likely to disable, or seriously damage an equivalent VF from the same era.

One other factor to keep in mind is technological advancements.  So, the micro missiles a VF-1 used in 2009~ has significantly less performance (explosive and range) than the ones used by the VF-1X++ in 2059 - despite the two looking the same!

Edited by sketchley

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Anybody know whos the VA for Claire, one of the OG Walkure members?

I think she was the blonde one.

I ask this because the version of that Bakuhatsu song that she's in sounds so much better than Kaname's solo version.

 

 

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5 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Anybody know whos the VA for Claire, one of the OG Walkure members?

I think she was the blonde one.

I ask this because the version of that Bakuhatsu song that she's in sounds so much better than Kaname's solo version.

 

 

Via Wiki, it was Yoko Hikasa

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11 hours ago, kajnrig said:

This makes me think: What is the strength of micromissiles through the Macross ages? Are they designed such that a single one has the strength to take out a same-era or perhaps slightly older VF, or are they designed ONLY to work as part of a barrage? I'd imagine the former is the case (and the miniaturization just allows for mass firing without regard to ammo conservation), but it would be interesting if the latter were the case, and why and how they would develop their tech around that strategy...

The term "micro-missile" covers a LOT of ground in Macross... the term applies to most any small, short-range, high initial velocity missile meant for visual range-use.  They're theoretically meant to be used in numbers for saturation attacks, but beyond that there's a lot of variation.

If one takes Macross Chronicle as a guide, the (New) UN Forces seem to benchmark the firepower of weapons against the energy conversion armor of the generation of VFs the weapons are meant for.  One or two documented in Master File seem to almost be medium-range missiles with a less powerful rocket motor, but most seem to have scaled-down warheads to go with the reduction in rocket motor.  Zentradi mecha being more lightly armored, one or two seem to be sufficient for destroying one of them, though from what we've seen two or three striking more or less at the same time seem to be enough to inflict potentially-disabling damage on a VF.

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@Seto Kaiba - Just for curiousity, compared to the micro missiles, hows the stopping power of most gunpods. Is it based on weight of fire or just stopping power?

For a benchmark let's take the armaments of the VF-171.

Thanks in advance.

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Quote

For a benchmark let's take the armaments of the VF-171.

Thanks in advance.

Hard to say, since we know very little of the VF-171's gunpod compared to others.

The best-understood set of armaments belongs to the VF-1 Valkyrie, so they're usually the most reliable metric.

 

Edited by Seto Kaiba
Deleted my earlier analysis, because I realized I'd made a math error and WAY understated the warhead filler of the AMM-1A by going from memory alone.

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Just talking to myself since we were talking about the 31A here and the movie thread was talking about Makina there and the model kit section had this:

Capture11.JPG

(She's servicing the top left-hand VF.) It would be really interesting to see what Makina thinks of the Siegfrieds in comparison to the real thing. It'd be even more interesting if she liked the Kairos more than the Siegfried, with a super minor plot point being her trying to convince either Arad or Johnson to make the switch-over. Like, it makes way more practical sense to use the base model and just switch out the pod/leg ordinance/fold carbon. Maybe Walkure/Delta complain "but we wouldn't look like a W anymore" to which she could break the fourth wall and say "this show is LITERALLY called Macross Delta."

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But the Siegfrieds are sexier looking than the Kairos.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hard to say, since we know very little of the VF-171's gunpod compared to others.

The best-understood set of armaments belongs to the VF-1 Valkyrie, so they're usually the most reliable metric.

 

Use whatever metric you need. I read your pre-edited response and it gave me something to think on. If there is a major change I await your analyze, no rush on this project.

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1 hour ago, anime52k8 said:

But the Siegfrieds are sexier looking than the Kairos.

u wanna fite

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2 hours ago, Focslain said:

@Seto Kaiba - Just for curiousity, compared to the micro missiles, hows the stopping power of most gunpods. Is it based on weight of fire or just stopping power?

Getting back to this, since my original analysis contained a math error due to my forgetting the % improvement in warhead filler energy density...

A VF's gunpod is, ostensibly, its heaviest direct-fire weapon... though it has an advantage in that it has specialized armor-piercing explosive ammunition intended to defeat energy conversion armor's boosted resilience.  Missile warheads are, for the most part, trying to overcome it by a more brute force route.

In kinetic terms, the GU-11A's 55mm shells are moving downrange at 2km/s and carrying around 4.87MJ of kinetic energy apiece.  That's about 16.35% more energy than the detonation of a 1kg TNT bomb, and the GU-11A can lob up to 20 of those downrange every second when the gunpod operates at its maximum rate of fire (1,200 rpm).  I haven't yet found an explanation of the exact mechanism, but the shells are somehow able to circumvent/defeat the enhanced defensive ability provided by energy conversion armor and only have to worry about the physical strength of their target's armor material.  They're also typically explosive rounds, so there's that little extra "bang!" after they've penetrated the armor.

OTMat warhead filler is some seriously nasty stuff.  The old technical materials suggest that it's 10 times as energetic as TNT, so around 8 times as powerful as modern fillers.  The AMM-1A Arrow's explosive payload is roughly equivalent to a "1,000lb" Mark 83 GP bomb or nine AIM-120D AMRAAMs in terms of energy release, though it also has a much higher detonation velocity which makes it more effective at breaching armor.  That's a smallish medium-range missile equivalent to about 172 of the GU-11's shells purely in terms of energy transfer.

If you were to assume a hypothetical micro-missile with 1/4 the warhead filler of an AMM-1A, it would have an equivalent energy output to the kinetic energy of 43 55mm HEACA shells from a Howard GU-11A gunpod.

We've seen some micro-missiles that are quite small compared to existing AMMs or larger HMMs, and others (like the VF-19's) that seem to be the same warhead as a medium-range missile only on a smaller rocket motor.

 

 

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

Just talking to myself since we were talking about the 31A here and the movie thread was talking about Makina there and the model kit section had this:

Capture11.JPG

(She's servicing the top left-hand VF.) It would be really interesting to see what Makina thinks of the Siegfrieds in comparison to the real thing. It'd be even more interesting if she liked the Kairos more than the Siegfried, with a super minor plot point being her trying to convince either Arad or Johnson to make the switch-over. Like, it makes way more practical sense to use the base model and just switch out the pod/leg ordinance/fold carbon. Maybe Walkure/Delta complain "but we wouldn't look like a W anymore" to which she could break the fourth wall and say "this show is LITERALLY called Macross Delta."

She's allegedly a mecha otaku, so I'd assume she would probably exhibit most of the same traits you'd expect from a connoisseur of performance automobiles.  She'd prefer the Siegfried Custom since it's higher performance (even at the expense of durability) and has more bells and whistles, including particularly expensive ones like the Fold Wave System.  The VF-31A would probably be much less interesting to her, since not only is it a lower-performance stock model, it's also kinda occupying the role of the 5th Generation's economy model.  If it weren't gorgeous, it'd be the 5th Generation's equivalent of a Prius.

The forward-swept wing segment is supposedly intended to sacrifice some of the VF-31A's low-altitude delta wing stability for additional maneuverability.

 

 

1 hour ago, anime52k8 said:

But the Siegfrieds are sexier looking than the Kairos.

HERESY!

*BLAM!*

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:
 

Getting back to this, since my original analysis contained a math error due to my forgetting the % improvement in warhead filler energy density...

A VF's gunpod is, ostensibly, its heaviest direct-fire weapon... though it has an advantage in that it has specialized armor-piercing explosive ammunition intended to defeat energy conversion armor's boosted resilience.  Missile warheads are, for the most part, trying to overcome it by a more brute force route.

In kinetic terms, the GU-11A's 55mm shells are moving downrange at 2km/s and carrying around 4.87MJ of kinetic energy apiece.  That's about 16.35% more energy than the detonation of a 1kg TNT bomb, and the GU-11A can lob up to 20 of those downrange every second when the gunpod operates at its maximum rate of fire (1,200 rpm).  I haven't yet found an explanation of the exact mechanism, but the shells are somehow able to circumvent/defeat the enhanced defensive ability provided by energy conversion armor and only have to worry about the physical strength of their target's armor material.  They're also typically explosive rounds, so there's that little extra "bang!" after they've penetrated the armor.

OTMat warhead filler is some seriously nasty stuff.  The old technical materials suggest that it's 10 times as energetic as TNT, so around 8 times as powerful as modern fillers.  The AMM-1A Arrow's explosive payload is roughly equivalent to a "1,000lb" Mark 83 GP bomb or nine AIM-120D AMRAAMs in terms of energy release, though it also has a much higher detonation velocity which makes it more effective at breaching armor.  That's a smallish medium-range missile equivalent to about 172 of the GU-11's shells purely in terms of energy transfer.

If you were to assume a hypothetical micro-missile with 1/4 the warhead filler of an AMM-1A, it would have an equivalent energy output to the kinetic energy of 43 55mm HEACA shells from a Howard GU-11A gunpod.

We've seen some micro-missiles that are quite small compared to existing AMMs or larger HMMs, and others (like the VF-19's) that seem to be the same warhead as a medium-range missile only on a smaller rocket motor.

Ok, so gunpods rely on rate of fire while the missiles are brute force... seems my original choice was right then, good.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

HERESY!

*BLAM!*

I see you prefer the bolt to the las. Fine choice sir.

Edited by Focslain

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5 hours ago, Focslain said:

Ok, so gunpods rely on rate of fire while the missiles are brute force... seems my original choice was right then, good.

Pretty much, yeah... but if the rotary cannon gunpods and built-in machineguns like the ones the VF-25 and VF-171 were upgraded with weren't equipped with that special armor-piercing ammunition designed to defeat energy conversion armor they'd be worse than useless.

The shift to dimensional beam weapons as gunpods seems to suggest that Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines have improved the output and efficiency of their compact thermonuclear reactors to the point that they can now sustainably apply the brute force method to beat even the armor of 5th Generation VFs.  (That the VF-31A/B can operate one with almost exactly the same engine as the VF-25 suggests that it may be something later production blocks of the VF-25 will pick up as well as a replacement for the GU-17.)

 

 

Quote

I see you prefer the bolt to the las. Fine choice sir.

Well, y'know... "Die for the Emperor or die trying!"

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

She's allegedly a mecha otaku, so I'd assume she would probably exhibit most of the same traits you'd expect from a connoisseur of performance automobiles.  She'd prefer the Siegfried Custom since it's higher performance (even at the expense of durability) and has more bells and whistles, including particularly expensive ones like the Fold Wave System.  The VF-31A would probably be much less interesting to her, since not only is it a lower-performance stock model, it's also kinda occupying the role of the 5th Generation's economy model.  If it weren't gorgeous, it'd be the 5th Generation's equivalent of a Prius.

The forward-swept wing segment is supposedly intended to sacrifice some of the VF-31A's low-altitude delta wing stability for additional maneuverability.

Yeah, but the mechanic in her can't be pleased with the level of specialization that the custom models exhibit, to the point of major replacement parts scarcity. This on top of everything already being relatively scarce thanks to their being out in the boondocks... I hate to think how much of the Siegfrieds are held together by duct tape and sheer force of will.

31 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(That the VF-31A/B

There's a B?

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49 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Yeah, but the mechanic in her can't be pleased with the level of specialization that the custom models exhibit, to the point of major replacement parts scarcity. This on top of everything already being relatively scarce thanks to their being out in the boondocks... I hate to think how much of the Siegfrieds are held together by duct tape and sheer force of will.

I dunno, there are plenty of gearheads who don't mind at all that fancy sportscars are nowhere near as versatile as a family sedan.  Her own designs like Walkure's field equipment are monstrously impractical and don't account for safety or other basic concerns.  We are, after all, talking about an engineer who sent Walkure into battle repeatedly in nothing more than a sheer body stocking and underwear under holographic clothes... no body armor or anything like that.

I'd expect the upkeep on the Siegfried units, which weren't designed for the kind of output they've been modified to produce and are acknowledged to have more intensive maintenance requirements than the stock model as a result are a big part of the reason Xaos runs out of money so easily.

 

49 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

There's a B?

Yep, though it's one of those variants that's mentioned but never seen.  Another mass production type like the VF-31A.

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Even a man who has nothing can still give his life in the Emperor's service. 

Speaking of the GU-17, how did it improve upon the GU-11?

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17 hours ago, kajnrig said:

There's a B?

Too late do I realize they skipped the one letter that would let me make a "She wants the D" joke.

 

6 hours ago, Sildani said:

Speaking of the GU-17, how did it improve upon the GU-11?

The most noteworthy improvement other than the slightly larger shells and more modern ammo incl. MDE shells is muzzle velocity.

Those 58mm armor-piercing rounds are headed downrange at upwards of 4km/s, twice what the GU-11A was accomplishing.

It's also had some significant improvements in durability, EMP-resistance, accuracy, and cooling.

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Most of that, if not all, looks like the artwork of Master Tenjin Hidetaka who has done a lot of the best artwork for Macross, specifically for model kit box art. There have been three books released (The Sortie series, Third Sortie even having English translation of the notes in it) just displaying his work. My avatar of Captain Max is actually a portrait he drew that appears in Third Sortie.

I can't be sure that is all his work, but a lot of what you posted looks very similar to this art style.

EDIT: Looking again, a few of those I know for sure are Tenjin works, so I'm more likely to believe it's mostly his stuff.

Edited by Master Dex

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Actually, none of those illustrations are Tenjin's since they were done in the early 80's long before Tenjin's career started. They're from two collections of art portfolios that contain art from several Macross artists. 

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Thanks for the replies but I'm asking about Mr. Shoji Kawamori, if any of those artworks are his. I need to know which ones are his if any.

Edited by Bub
Gammar

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3 hours ago, Bub said:

Thanks for the replies but I'm asking about Mr. Shoji Kawamori, if any of those artworks are his. I need to know which ones are his if any.

Two of the pictures are drawn by Shoji Kawamori.

The middle picture in your first photo, with the Super Valkyrie on a greenish background.

The Super Valkyrie spacewalk picture in your last photo.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Two of the pictures are drawn by Shoji Kawamori.

The middle picture in your first photo, with the Super Valkyrie on a greenish background.

The Super Valkyrie spacewalk picture in your last photo.

Thank you very much, Seto.  :)

 

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On 8/13/2017 at 10:10 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Two of the pictures are drawn by Shoji Kawamori.

The middle picture in your first photo, with the Super Valkyrie on a greenish background.

The Super Valkyrie spacewalk picture in your last photo.

I just noticed his name was beside those two images you mentioned. ;) 

On the Battroid and Gerwalk specs drawing, I recognize the last name is was Tanaka. What's his first name since I'm not that familiar with that kanjis? Thanks!

 

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What can we speculate about the SV-154 Svard's performance?

Would it be better or worse than a VF-171?

If they were built for Windermerians would it be inherently more capable than your average VF?

I doubt it but would Windermere 4's rich Fold Quartz supply somehow make it into a Svard?

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Can't be sure on fold quartz usage, and really anything is a hypothetical. However the SV series is designed to be best against other VFs and the VF-171 was already an aging plane in 2060, but we also don't know how old the Svard was by then. It is more likely it was on par with the VF-171. The NUNS were using the Aerial Knights as a special ops force so they were more banking on their flying skill than technological capacity. It is notable that it required Epsilon Foundation later to make a Gen 5 equivalent fighter which implied Winderemere doesn't have that capacity on their own.

Then again it was also proven that without ketchup song backing them, even in the 262s the Aerial Knights weren't able to hold up against the VF-171s... so... they might not be /that/ good as pilots either.

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2 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

What can we speculate about the SV-154 Svard's performance?

Well, I think there are several areas where we could draw some broad conclusions based on the relatively small set of knowns for the Sv-154.  I could, of course, go off into left field and suggest that, like the British tanks and tea, the Svard's cockpit is equipped with a dispenser for apple juice.  I like this idea.  Headcanon accepted.

 

2 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Would it be better or worse than a VF-171?

In the interest of giving an answer that isn't simply the verbal equivalent of a shrug, I would contend that as a 4th Generation-equivalent VF the Sv-154 Svard is likely broadly comparable in performance to the Block II VF-171 Nightmare Plus used by the Brisingr Alliance's NUNS.  Windermere IV's government seems to have an extreme fixation on atmospheric combat, they would probably have insisted upon a fighter that was optimized for atmospheric use.  Thus I would expect the Svard to exhibit higher atmospheric performance than the Nightmare Plus in combat, but lower performance and endurance in space combat just like the Sv-262.

 

2 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

If they were built for Windermerians would it be inherently more capable than your average VF?

We don't know that the Sv-154 Svard was built specifically for use by Windermere IV the way the Sv-262 is implied to have been.  I would assume that its anti-VF combat abilities are a bit better, since it IS a design from the SV Works, which specialized in developing VFs designed to fight other VFs.  Whether it's actually able to take full advantage of the greater abilities of a Windermerean is anyone's guess, but I would assume not since Windermere IV was at best stalemating their own planet's New UN Forces garrison.

(It does seem that experience paid bigger dividends, since the relatively green Windermereans were losing a lot of pilots to the NUNS even in the fighting on Windermere IV's surface.)

 

2 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

I doubt it but would Windermere 4's rich Fold Quartz supply somehow make it into a Svard?

Almost certainly not.

At the time the Svard was in service, the mining of fold quartz was almost entirely done under the supervision of the New UN Government due to restrictions on trade in the material (as seen in Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight).  They didn't gain full control over the fold quartz resources of their planet until after the New UN Forces withdrew following their disastrous attempt to destroy the Sigur Valens with a dimensional bomb.

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What are the models of the VF-4 Lightning III? Is there anything about the G variant that stands out from others, such that Yamcadia specifically names their toys VF-4G? (Question came to me as I saw the release info of the upcoming Wave kit, which just calls it the VF-4.)

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I think Wave's version is the VF-4$. ;)

In all seriousness, the G was from the Macross M3 videogame and it was here that it was shown transformed.  Apparently the reason the Arcadia/Yamato version is the G is because it's the only way they could get a license for a transforming VF-4. There may be more to the story than that, but that's my recollection.

As far as I'm aware, the FB 2012 version is just the "VF-4".  Makes me wonder what sort of markings the Wave kit will come with.

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10 hours ago, kajnrig said:

What are the models of the VF-4 Lightning III? Is there anything about the G variant that stands out from others, such that Yamcadia specifically names their toys VF-4G? (Question came to me as I saw the release info of the upcoming Wave kit, which just calls it the VF-4.)

To the best of our knowledge, there are six official variants of the VF-4.  Three of those variants have actually appeared in Macross titles, and the other three are "technical materials only" ones.  They are:

  • VF-4A: First mass-production type, seen in Macross Flashback 2012 
  • VF-4B: Two-seater version of VF-4A, used for training and attack roles.
  • VF-4C: Improved VF-4A intended to be convertible for regime optimization.
  • VF-4D: Modified VF-4C customized for UN Navy use.
  • VF-4S: Economized version of the VF-4D for UN Navy use with unnecessary equipment removed, salt damage resistance measures added.  Disarmed version "VF-4SL" seen in the Macross R light novel as an air racing unit.
  • VF-4G: Final variant, with upgraded armor, avionics, engines, weapons, etc., seen in Macross Digital Mission VF-X  and Macross M3

 

9 hours ago, mickyg said:

In all seriousness, the G was from the Macross M3 videogame and it was here that it was shown transformed.

Close... the VF-4G's first appearance was in Macross Digital Mission VF-X, a couple years before Macross M3 came out. 

Both Yamato and Arcadia branded their transforming VF-4 toys as VF-4Gs from Macross Digital Mission VF-X.  

 

 

Quote

As far as I'm aware, the FB 2012 version is just the "VF-4".  Makes me wonder what sort of markings the Wave kit will come with.

Officially, VF-4A, but just "VF-4" implies the [A].  I'd assume SVF-1 Skulls markings, if it's a FB2012 model... or maybe some of the other VF-4A paint schemes from This is Animation Special Macross Plus.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
Spelling!

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So let's talk paint. 

By the time of macross Delta, I think the Valks are using a kind of SMart Paint on their fighters. In Episode 7, right at the start as Delta are going onto their mission on the cat planet, The Valks (And Walkures carrier ship) all black shift to this stealth camo. Do we have any idea if this is actually a thing?

I ask because suddenly custom colors on a fighter seem like they'd be relatively easy to do. You just program the scheme and the planes smart paint system changes it for you. 

Will I finally stump Seto with a questyion about a Valkyries PAINT?! Tune in to find out! 

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3 hours ago, Scream Man said:

So let's talk paint. 

By the time of macross Delta, I think the Valks are using a kind of SMart Paint on their fighters. In Episode 7, right at the start as Delta are going onto their mission on the cat planet, The Valks (And Walkures carrier ship) all black shift to this stealth camo. Do we have any idea if this is actually a thing?

I ask because suddenly custom colors on a fighter seem like they'd be relatively easy to do. You just program the scheme and the planes smart paint system changes it for you. 

Will I finally stump Seto with a questyion about a Valkyries PAINT?! Tune in to find out! 

It could also be a holographic projection like the Walkure outfits.

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3 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Will I finally stump Seto with a questyion about a Valkyries PAINT?! Tune in to find out! 

It's good to have dreams, lol. 

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