EXO Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 yeah, as far as i'm concerned with tanmen, i will take whatver i can get from him, adn then mass produce resin recasts, for the "dirty american capitalist dog" market. Hello, I definitely agree with the boycott, and I was really close to joining into the large order Jesse started. I have an even better idea: We should "edit" the Tanmen kits that people here at MW were fortunate enough to receive before he flaked out, and send them as part of a care package to all of the American/Japanese Soldiers serving in Iraq, and are Macross/Robotech fans. That way they'll have a kit to build when they're not on duty. He should really get a kick out of that. It's hard to believe that the same guy who made the most detailed valkyrie ever (Club M 1/48 Ultimate Strike Valkyrie), has no sense of honor. Sincerely, Christopher Chris! Mr. "Sincere" Nice guy! Who knew you had a wicked, down right dirty side to ya??? Next time I see you, I'm buying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estacado06479 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 sig change, show your colors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I haven't really been following this situation, so I don't know what's been done or said previously, but perhaps Shawn could explain the situation to Seichi and ask him to talk with Tanmen in Japanese to try to make him see that this is a business deal which he should honor and really has nothing to do with politics. And if I understand Tanmen's view correctly, he should have no problem selling to someone from say France for example, as France did not support the war on Iraq. So perhaps the orders could be resent by a French MW member as I believe we have a few. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I think that's a great idea, if we as Americans can't convince him to do what's right perhaps his own fellow countrymen and peers can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myersjessee Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I'm all for this. I do know Rob has had another comrade who is a toy dealer like Seiichi call him...which helped getting us the first toys...perhaps someone else calling him might put more pressure on him. I dont want to insult him...but I do want this situation resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgil samms Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I think we can use the MAME rom trading analogy here.Mame roms project and others , makes old, unavailable, no longer manufactured or supported arcade games available to people to copy, distribute, enjoy and to relive or experience those games while preserving their art and creativity. The VB6 is like one of those old roms. IHP has currently and forseeably cease doing business with direct customers since the one and sole employee now works for Yamato. All of his old works is locked up or lost if there will be no reproduction. Tanmen is actively still working and producing models including the ones he doesn't want to sell to MWers over his crack head interpretation of how to demonstrate anti-war sentiments. Does this guy even know that MW is an INTERNATIONAL site which Macross fans from all of the world but the server is based in the US? I don't see the stars, stripes, or banners on the front page. I see the UN Spacy Kite shield. Sorry for the rant but in anycase, he is actively in the modeling business and it is ethically wrong to steal his money, like the way he is attempting to do so unto MWers who have ordered from him. Or at least that is what is interpreted. I don't think this argument holds water. I have seen a lot of people trying to justify the recasting of the monster and other models but all of your arguments on why it is ok just don't hold up. Before some of you get mad let me say this; I am not trying to anger you or insult you, I just think you are rationalizing a point so that doing something wrong seems ok because of circumstances. In the case of old models out of production the original seller of those models paid a fee for a license to produce and sell those kits. If the maker of the kits still retains the license and you copy and sell his work, even if you don't make a profit, you are still potentially taking money from him as he may reissue these kits later. If the license has expired or the company has gone out of business the ownership of the material in question reverts back to whoever issued the license in the first place. The original owner has the option to renew the license with the kits maker or to sell the licnese to another company to make another version of this kit. Now not only have you stolen from the original kit maker who paid for the license but you could also be stealing from the next company to produce this model. Saying that this model is not coming back and at least by copying it you are allowing fans to enjoy something they would otherwise miss out on may sound ok but it is still stealing from those who legally own the rights to the item in question. Who among you can tell the future? Who can say with certainty that no one will ever buy the rights to reproduce this kit at a far off date? Did anyone investigate the possibility of contacting the owners of these licenses and trying to buy rights for a short term production run to legally supply all the MW'ers who want one? Back when the original Napster was running at full steam I downloaded a number of songs from them. I stole them in other words. I did not pay anything for them and the artist who put all the work into them received no money for what I downloaded. Thats stealing. If you are going to bootleg these models then don't hide behind excuses, just step up and say "Hey I want this and this is how I am going to get it!" If your conscience is ok with it why spend so much time trying to convince everyone else it is not wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 (edited) "Hey I want this and this is how I am going to get it!" happy now? "oh boohoo now I feel really bad, bad llama" Edited March 11, 2004 by Grayson72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stampeed Valkyrie Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Sorry Virgil I disagree, this guy pretty much took the money and ran, and then used a lame excuse to hide behind. But thats "OK" because recasting is stealing......um I feel a little bit of my Klepto side coming out . In all seriousness though morally you are correct, what it all boils down to is do you care if your doing it or not? Personally I could give two ***** who owns what rights or whether BW, HG, or my mom has the license for it. What matters to me is where can I get it, and whats it gonna cost me. I can understand why myersjessee wants to stay legit, but if it does eventually happen that people recast Tanmen's models I won't shead one tear for someone stealing from him. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Personally I could give two ***** who owns what rights or whether BW, HG, or my mom has the license for it. What matters to me is where can I get it, and whats it gonna cost me. amen brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherB Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 (edited) Personally I could give two ***** who owns what rights or whether BW, HG, or my mom has the license for it. What matters to me is where can I get it, and whats it gonna cost me. amen brother My Brothers and Sisters, I've been to the moutain top, and I've seen the evil that is "Tanmen." And the Lord shall cast him down amongst rabid Robotech fans, and the Lord shall spread his resin kits like a plaque of locusts across the lands of Macross fans everywhere! Can I get a, Hallelujah?!? Edited March 11, 2004 by ChristopherB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007-vf1 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Personally I could give two ***** who owns what rights or whether BW, HG, or my mom has the license for it. What matters to me is where can I get it, and whats it gonna cost me. amen brother My Brother's and Sister's, I've been to the moutain top, and I've seen the evil that is "Tanmen." And the Lord shall cast him down amongst rabid Robotech fans, and the Lord shall spread his resin kits like a plaque of locusts across the lands of Macross fans everywhere! Can I get a, Hallelujah?!? Hallelujah! my santified Borther... At least we can make some miracles happen in moments of adversity ...and is funny how some people complaint about us "copying" someone elses model or copyrighted idols when everything else out there in the world is really messed up for us fans. HG is the 'biggestest' example of evil illusion and it seems to be OK for them to get away with murder and the only way to stop it will be to have the second coming of Jesus or another omnipotent-all-mighty-wrath-of-the-God's-universal flood.. In the mean time I am getting my kit the only possible way I might ever get to see it become a reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgil samms Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Stamppeed I will point out that I never addressed the problem you are having with Tanmen but rather the comments made by Neova and his/her rationalization for recasting. Since you brought him up however, I think the best thing you could do is exhaust all avenues for reaching a satisfactory settlement with Tanmen. From what I have seen so far it does not look like he is acting in good faith with you but there is a cultural/language barrier involved and it would be sad to see a bunch of people take up arms and attempt to damage his business if this all turns out to be a misunderstanding. After what, 16 months? I doubt that is the case but you never know. If he has taken your money in good faith and then decided not to live up to his side of the deal the best thing to do is persue legal action. If you mailed him the money and he stiffed you then that is mail fraud and the post office will go after him. The fact that he thinks he is safe in Japan will do him little good except to force the post office to go through the Japanese government for satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocco_77 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 ARRG... This whole situation is just really unfortunate... I ordered a couple items on the "Jesse Order," and one of them is with Jesse now... The other will not be produced, so I'm looking for the refund, but I'm not holding my breath. As I said in the "Order Thread," the guy is a jerk, plain and simple. I am completely for the boycott. And I have my own views on recasts, but I won't put them here since we were asked not to. I just hope someone can get through to him and get him to realize that he needs to make good on his deal. It surprises me being a business man from Japan that he would show this type of blatent disregard for a business deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estacado06479 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 too funny, as if in Japan there are no dishonest people? i have seen WAY too many comments in this thread that are surprised, NOT because he is a respected model maker, but because of his national origin, wake up guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlightman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 too funny, as if in Japan there are no dishonest people?i have seen WAY too many comments in this thread that are surprised, NOT because he is a respected model maker, but because of his national origin, wake up guys... Wait.. you're saying there are a-holes everywhere? The situation sucks for everybody, but I'm not one of the people getting ripped off so I'm not gonna make any comment about it other than I hope it gets resolved so that everyone is happy. Don't rationalize recasting a kit because the guy is a dick, that's BS. If you recast it, fine, but don't make it out like doing so is all high and mighty. Reminds me of the people who legitimize downloading MP3s as okay because the record companies are evil. Don't justify something that's illegal with moral reasoning, because it's still illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estacado06479 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 actually from what i read, he has said he is getting out of the macross business, and as such, the models will no longer be available, except to a few who know about recasting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Don't confuse the law with morality, each can exist without the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estacado06479 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 oh yes, and as he pointed out, he is in japan, and we are in the US, so, its not like he can SUE me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I'll just keep mine unpainted and untouched until he decides and makes public he is stopping macross kit making,then I can let someone recast them because they will no longer be avaliable to the public other then through recasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myersjessee Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 what a mess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechwarrior Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 ...............could care less about politics. Recast or original, I just want a Cat's Eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocco_77 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 (edited) too funny, as if in Japan there are no dishonest people?i have seen WAY too many comments in this thread that are surprised, NOT because he is a respected model maker, but because of his national origin, wake up guys... yeah, I guess I'm guilty of generalizing here.... pretty naive of me in retrospect. EDIT: I'm with mechwarrior on this one... I just wanted a fan racer and a VF-4. I got the fan racer, but not the VF-4 Maybe a Cats Eye will become available to lift my spirits once again. Edited March 12, 2004 by rocco_77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I think that's why he was telling us the molds are broken for the cat's eye and the other models. He can't pay us with those models because he can't make any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myersjessee Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 good point...okay...Ill talk to Rob and see what we can figure out this weekend...perhaps it was clearer on the phone call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingPika Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 i voted, coz this tanmen dood sounds like scum, but who is he? Was he the one with the variable monsters that fell thro? What was he casting? Maybe you should just recast his models and tell him "we not in japan so u cant sue me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson72 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Well speak of the devil, the recast of Tanmen's 1/72 Fan racer is now available at Hobbyfan.com. What goes around comes around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CID Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Another unfortunate incident hits fellow MW members. Although, I am not a victim in this incident, it gets to me when I view this types of threads so often this days. Although, Tanmen is right about being outside of US enforcements jurisdictions (Techinically his is not, but......), there are many other avenues to get his attention, including, but not limited to the following: 1. In a letter or email from Tanmen, he stated that he currently or planning to work for Konami. .....As there was beyond good reputation about "1/144 the self-defence force series" of KONAMI, KONAMI tries to get an original model malker of "Thunder Bird Series" back to "1/144 The Self- Defence Force Series". I have some problems about that. Because I was asked to be an original model maker of KONAMI production..... It might be a good idea to contact his potential employer and let them know what had happen. konami is one of the company that are exporting their products to US and they surely will not want to tarnish their reputation by associating with unethical person, in this case, Tanmen. Even better, Tanmen is publicly stating his intention to affiliate himself with Bandai (We all know Bandai's market shares worldwide). It might be worth it to write simultaneous letters, including supporting documents, to Konami and Bandai. ....I'm ready to come back for BANDAI original model maker so that I can leave KONAMI whenever I want.... Althoguh, this might not be the best avenue to take, however, it can result in successful result. Sometimes these types of information can be leak to news media and get a shocking result. However, as stated in this thread or somewhere about, the decision has to be made among the victims in this unfortunate incident. Tanmen reminds me of some of the characters I ran into everyday (Those that think they are above the law and think only of their interest without any regards to consequences." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robomatt Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I am not Donald Trump or anything but have been in the business world for a while... 1. Tanmen has not fullfilled the products he has received money for. 2. It has been months since he missed multiple deadlines. 3. Since he has ran out of reasonable excuses that are beleivable he is now resorting to unreasonable excuses...as if US policy has anything to do with him fullfilling his obligations. What a joke! Based on Tanmen's response that "we can't sue him" (basically he has told us to go screw ourselves) many of the suggestion that have been given would be very appropriate. For those that paid I think they should get as many recasts as is possible to make so they can display the model in all three modes. Recasting is the best alternative because since you have paid for the model and that part is taken care of you can now take Tanmen out of the entire matter and go on getting the model through a recast. People like this frustrate the crap out of me. ChristopherB was right. He has no honor. It's a shame because he is so talented and makes such good models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanata67 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 market competition... if someone can reproduce a product of comparable quality cheaper... they should. Drug companies have something like a 7 year period before "generics" can be made. I'd say the same should hold true with anything. Mr rob beers was in the process of recasting an entire 1/55... bandai re-released the 1/55's at a fair price and there was no longer a point. The whole point is the point you can make. If a company hasn't made a product for a while and they notice some-one making money selling it they might realize "hey... we can do it in higher volume cheaper and make money" and they do, or else they won't care as it's not worth dusting off the machinery. Competition is good. I don't care if it's HG vs bandai or a recaster vs tanman. You either compete or you die. This case is a good example of how customer service can factor in LOL. As for rationalizing it... Once it was bought and paid for it, it is yours to do with as you wish. Unlike napster the original actually had to be paid for. Also... if he hasn't patened it and some-one here should happen to... wouldn't that settle the whole moral thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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