Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 7 - READ 1st POST

[kalvasflam]

The original series also covered some universal tropes that goes beyond its time. Your current Macross is still built on a decades old property. Not counting the spotty animation it still stands the test of time. Could a 30+ year franchise be built on Delta if it was the first Macross? Who knows.

What if they rebooted the original Macross series, like they did with Yamato. I wonder if that'll draw in a crowd. Of course, it's not as easy since there will be a temptation to "upgrade" the VF-1; or change the Regults and Quads. I'd like them to keep the story the same, but you can easily see some added materials, and we could do away with the one flashback episode and add something more to it.

I would like that. But somehow, in today's world, I'm sure we'll get just the grunt VF-1s and then the super robot VF-1 or worse, a VF-2 model that was specially developed for the commander, but not in wide production yet type of deal.

The other alternative that I wouldn't mind is a story centered around any of the last three series, but from a different perspective, imagine following along a grunt VF-1 pilot that wasn't a red shirt, he can have interactions with Hikaru, Foker, and so forth. Or how about a VF-17 pilot from Frontier who is stationed on one of the Uragas. Gundam has pulled off some of these side stories pretty well, 08th MS team, Thunderbolt, Igloo. The only complain I have on those is that every single one of them had unique mechs and super robot elements. I guess that's inevitable given the crushing need of Bandai to sell kits.

If they can do a gundam every other year, why the hell can't they do a Macross every other year, the only element that'll be missing is the songs, and for that, you can always copy over Sheryl, Ranka, etc.

Edited May 20, 2016 by kalvasflam

[Karaoke Ninja]

What if they rebooted the original Macross series, like they did with Yamato. I wonder if that'll draw in a crowd. Of course, it's not as easy since there will be a temptation to "upgrade" the VF-1; or change the Regults and Quads. I'd like them to keep the story the same, but you can easily see some added materials, and we could do away with the one flashback episode and add something more to it.

I would like that. But somehow, in today's world, I'm sure we'll get just the grunt VF-1s and then the super robot VF-1 or worse, a VF-2 model that was specially developed for the commander, but not in wide production yet type of deal.

The other alternative that I wouldn't mind is a story centered around any of the last three series, but from a different perspective, imagine following along a grunt VF-1 pilot that wasn't a red shirt, he can have interactions with Hikaru, Foker, and so forth. Or how about a VF-17 pilot from Frontier who is stationed on one of the Uragas. Gundam has pulled off some of these side stories pretty well, 08th MS team, Thunderbolt, Igloo. The only complain I have on those is that every single one of them had unique mechs and super robot elements. I guess that's inevitable given the crushing need of Bandai to sell kits.

If they can do a gundam every other year, why the hell can't they do a Macross every other year, the only element that'll be missing is the songs, and for that, you can always copy over Sheryl, Ranka, etc.

Big West doesn't make a Macross every year probably because it'd be too expensive and Kawamori doesn't want to. I don't think he wants to crap out three Macross anime a year like Sunrise does with Gundam.

[Zinjo]

Big West doesn't make a Macross every year probably because it'd be too expensive and Kawamori doesn't want to. I don't think he wants to crap out three Macross anime a year like Sunrise does with Gundam.

How many Gundam producers and writers are there?

In Macross, no one other than SK seems to be trusted to tell the stories, so you are very limited there as the guy is also the head of Satellite...

[Mazinger]

How many Gundam producers and writers are there?

In Macross, no one other than SK seems to be trusted to tell the stories, so you are very limited there as the guy is also the head of Satellite...

I wish there was a way to get SK/Satellite to consider having other teams of people tell more Macross stories. The universe is a big place, no reason there couldn't be multiple series occurring in the same time periods.

Trek did it with TNG, DS9, and Voyager on TV. In movies currently, cinematic universe building is all the rage. Even Bayformers is doing it, not that I'd want so much output that the core of Macross concepts or story quality get's diluted, but a series or movie every three or fours would be great.

[Karaoke Ninja]

I wish there was a way to get SK/Satellite to consider having other teams of people tell more Macross stories. The universe is a big place, no reason there couldn't be multiple series occurring in the same time periods.

Trek did it with TNG, DS9, and Voyager on TV. In movies currently, cinematic universe building is all the rage. Even Bayformers is doing it, not that I'd want so much output that the core of Macross concepts or story quality get's diluted, but a series or movie every three or fours would be great.

That's what manga is for. Like the Delta tie-in mangas.

[Graham]

I wouldn't want or trust anybody else but Kawamori to be in overall control of Macross animes and design the VFs.

I really don't want Macross to become like Gundam with endless crap, mostly unrelated series churned out non-stop one after the other where they are just slapping a V-fin on a mecha and calling it Gundam, because the name will sell.

[Mommar]

I wouldn't want or trust anybody else but Kawamori to be in overall control of Macross animes and design the VFs.

I really don't want Macross to become like Gundam with endless crap, mostly unrelated series churned out non-stop one after the other where they are just slapping a V-fin on a mecha and calling it Gundam, because the name will sell.

But given some of the rather large gaps in story settings it would be relatively easy to come up with stuff that uses Valks already conceived that haven't had much spotlight. Save for Isamu and Kinryu the VF-11 has been nothing but flying scrap for the two series it's shown up in. We could see It succeed for once. Or something with the VF-9 (because there are a lot of fans.). Or anything with the VF-4. There doesn't need to be massive redesigns by other people just good stories. Edited May 21, 2016 by Mommar

[Seto Kaiba]

But given some of the rather large gaps in story settings it would be relatively easy to come up with stuff that uses Valks already conceived that haven't had much spotlight. Save for Isamu and Kinryu the VF-11 has been nothing but flying scrap for the two series it's shown up in. We could see It succeed for once. Or something with the VF-9 (because there are a lot of fans.). Or anything with the VF-4. There doesn't need to be massive redesigns by other people just good stories.

That's what the videogames do... Macross M3 gave the VF-4, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-11, and VF-14 some much-needed spotlight while filling in several gaps between Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus; Macross Digital Mission VF-X and Macross VF-X2 did it for the period after Macross 7; and of course Macross 30 for after Macross Frontier (which also gave the VF-11 some more love by making it the ride of one of the game's main trio).

[d3v]

I wouldn't want or trust anybody else but Kawamori to be in overall control of Macross animes and design the VFs.

I really don't want Macross to become like Gundam with endless crap, mostly unrelated series churned out non-stop one after the other where they are just slapping a V-fin on a mecha and calling it Gundam, because the name will sell.

This.

One thing that becomes problematic with Gundam is that, with so many series, many of them are just re-tellings of the same story beats stuffed into pretty new mecha, as the creative teams scramble to come up with new series on a cookie cutter basis.

It's interesting how Macross has been able to remain in the hands of a single creator and maintain single timeline, while feeling fresh almost everytime a new one rolls out, while Gundam has multiple timelines and creators now, yet everything feels rehashed.

Edited May 21, 2016 by d3v

[azrael]

I wouldn't want or trust anybody else but Kawamori to be in overall control of Macross animes and design the VFs.

I really don't want Macross to become like Gundam with endless crap, mostly unrelated series churned out non-stop one after the other where they are just slapping a V-fin on a mecha and calling it Gundam, because the name will sell.

This.

One thing that becomes problematic with Gundam is that, with so many series, many of them are just re-tellings of the same story beats stuffed into pretty new mecha, as the creative teams scramble to come up with new series on a cookie cutter basis.

It's interesting how Macross has been able to remain in the hands of a single creator and maintain single timeline, while feeling fresh almost everytime a new one rolls out, while Gundam has multiple timelines and creators now, yet everything feels rehashed.

Agreed. I'd rather have fewer productions than be peppered by a new TV show/OAV/movie every 6 months. Some of them may be good, but the dull ones start outweighing the whole franchise.

[Lorindor]

It's interesting how Macross has been able to remain in the hands of a single creator and maintain single timeline, while feeling fresh almost everytime a new one rolls out, while Gundam has multiple timelines and creators now, yet everything feels rehashed.

SDF Macross was NOT a one man show. After seeing much of his other works, I think it's pretty clear that Noboru Ishiguro had a LOT to do with the success of the show and DYRL. That man was a genius. Other Studio Nue members had high influence on the show too and should not be forgotten.

Also, Macross has multiple timelines. Remember Macross II, which is part of the original sequel continuity?

And what was Frontier but one whole re-packaged rehash? And while Delta has a lot of new stuff not seen in Macross before, it's mostly filled with tired anime tropes and clichės, so I'd say it's far from fresh. Case in point: we just got half an episode dedicated to cat puns, which I could get from about any other contemporary mainstream anime.

[JB0]

I think they were actually remarkably light on the catty nonsense. In spite of Freyja.

Honestly, I liked how quickly they shot her down when she started in with the stereotypical cat accent.

Even if it DID deprive us of hearing Messer trying to sound serious and sullen with a "nyaa" appended to the end of everything he said.

[Karaoke Ninja]

SDF Macross was NOT a one man show. After seeing much of his other works, I think it's pretty clear that Noboru Ishiguro had a LOT to do with the success of the show and DYRL. That man was a genius. Other Studio Nue members had high influence on the show too and should not be forgotten.

Also, Macross has multiple timelines. Remember Macross II, which is part of the original sequel continuity?

And what was Frontier but one whole re-packaged rehash? And while Delta has a lot of new stuff not seen in Macross before, it's mostly filled with tired anime tropes and clichės, so I'd say it's far from fresh. Case in point: we just got half an episode dedicated to cat puns, which I could get from about any other contemporary mainstream anime.

I think you're over-exaggerating quite a bit especially with the cat puns. We got like one minutes of them in one scene from one character. That's hardly half the episode. And what anime cliches and tropes are you talking about? If anything the show has been subverting a lot of common mecha anime tropes like Hayate and Freya bouncing back really quickly from feeling down/sad about something. Most mecha anime have the main character brood for a few episodes before getting over it.

[Lorindor]

I think you're over-exaggerating quite a bit especially with the cat puns. We got like one minutes of them in one scene from one character. That's hardly half the episode.

If the subber did not add more puns to troll, it was not just one scene and not one character. But true, it was not just puns, it was also a whole lot of cat-related visual gags. And it spanned a considerable part of the episode.

[JB0]

ALL the puns are translation artifacts. The japanese would just be ending sentences with cat noises, which is completely awkward and unnatural in english.

It really isn't hard to listen to the audio and see how many statements end with a dumb cat yowl. This is not a case where you are dependent on GG's presentation because you don't know japanese.

That said: Catpeople eating apples is about as unstereotypical as it gets. And keeps knocking against my suspension of disbelief.

[Lorindor]

ALL the puns are translation artifacts. The japanese would just be ending sentences with cat noises, which are completely awkward and unnatural in english.

It really isn't hard to listen to the audio and see how many statements end with a dumb cat yowl. This is not a case where you are dependent on GG's presentation because you don't know japanese.

I'm aware that the nature of the puns is different in Japanese. Still, nothing in the world will make me rewatch this awful episode just to listen for "nyan" sounds. If you tell me Freyja actually stopped her cat noises when the other characters asked her to stop, I will admit my mistake. In the subs, she did do a few more and IINM, the apple seller did also make cat noises.

That said: Catpeople eating apples is about as unstereotypical as it gets. And keeps knocking against my suspension of disbelief.

You do mean stereotypical, right? Edited May 21, 2016 by Lorindor

[Mommar]

That's what the videogames do... Macross M3 gave the VF-4, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-11, and VF-14 some much-needed spotlight while filling in several gaps between Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus; Macross Digital Mission VF-X and Macross VF-X2 did it for the period after Macross 7; and of course Macross 30 for after Macross Frontier (which also gave the VF-11 some more love by making it the ride of one of the game's main trio).

Animation would be more fun.

[JB0]

I'm aware that the nature of the puns is different in Japanese. Still, nothing in the world will make me rewatch this awful episode just to listen for "nyan" sounds. If you tell me Freyja actually stopped her cat noises when the other characters asked her to stop, I will admit my mistake. In the subs, she did do a few more and IINM, the apple seller did also make cat noises.

Freyja largely laid off the cat noises. The apple salesman MIGHT have made a nyaa, I had trouble telling and couldn't really say if it was just his accent or not.

You do mean stereotypical, right?

Yes. Yes, I did. Cats and apples is a WILDLY popular cliche.

No, of course I didn't. Cats are carnivores. They eat meat. And milk and cheese. I have NEVER seen someone try to sell catpeople as apple-scarfing herbivores before.

[Lorindor]

Yes. Yes, I did. Cats and apples is a WILDLY popular cliche.

No, of course I didn't. Cats are carnivores. They eat meat. And milk and cheese. I have NEVER seen someone try to sell catpeople as apple-scarfing herbivores before.

Oh, it's just that cat people in itself is a HUGE cliché. And trying to pass quirks such as an obsession of a particular food stuff as proper personality traits is a common flaw in Japanese storytelling. Combining two clichés does NOT make it fresh somehow, it only makes it more cliché.

As for your nitpick on the catpeople's diet... Scientifically speaking, there's no way whatsoever that there could have evolved animals on another planet that look like, act like and express the same allergens as cats evolved on Earth to begin with. The high occurance of humanoids in the galaxy is explained with the Protoculture seeding, but the occurance of cats everywhere has yet to get an explanation. Not that I expect to get one - Delta has clearly stopped to make any attempts to make the science fiction parts plausible. Pandering to the kawaii crowds, for example, has shown to be more important.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Lorindor

[RedWolf]

but the occurance of cats everywhere has yet to get an explanation. Not that I expect to get one - Delta has clearly stopped to make any attempts to make the science fiction parts plausible. Pandering to the kawaii crowds, for example, has shown to be more important.

Before the Protoculture worshiped the Vajra they worshiped Cats. The Protoculture ruin world of New Asia along with pyramids had a Sphinx.

Though seriously this like asking why there are dinosaur like creatures on different planets or flying fish on Earth and Zola.

[Lorindor]

Though seriously this like asking why there are dinosaur like creatures on different planets or flying fish on Earth and Zola.

No, it's not. Those creatures just bear a superficial similarity to life on Earth. That's perfectly possible. The catpeople on the other hand are implied to be similar to cats on a molecular level.

There are other strange things in Delta. How come the culture and architecture of Windermere is exactly like that of medieval Europe (or rather a generic fantasy story)? Why does the planet share the name of England's largest lake? Is it all just a cosmic coincidence or could it perhaps be due to lazy story writing and art direction?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Lorindor

[JB0]

Oh, it's just that cat people in itself is a HUGE cliché.

NO WAY!

And trying to pass quirks such as an obsession of a particular food stuff as proper personality traits is a common flaw in Japanese storytelling.

Good thing Delta isn't doing that, then?

Combining two clichés does NOT make it fresh somehow, it only makes it more cliché.

But having catpeople that, while not being obsessed with apples, routinely eat them(and other produce, before the invasion))... doesn't make cat people fresh and exciting, no. But it is definitely not a cat-related visual gag.

[Lorindor]

NO WAY!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatFolk

Good thing Delta isn't doing that, then?

Uhm... Freyja?

But having catpeople that, while not being obsessed with apples, routinely eat them(and other produce, before the invasion))... doesn't make cat people fresh and exciting, no. But it is definitely not a cat-related visual gag.

I did not call that a visual gag. Their helmets, however, are.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Lorindor

[Roy Focker]

I would call an entire episode with the everyone disguised by wearing cat ears on a planet with cat people as one big visual gag.

[JB0]

Uhm... Freyja?

Freyja is being an inane fool, as that is her default personality. And being shouted down.

I did not call that a visual gag. Their helmets, however, are.

Gotta stick the ears somewhere. Wouldn't be the first catsoldiers with eared helms in sci-fi.

[Graham]

SDF Macross was NOT a one man show. After seeing much of his other works, I think it's pretty clear that Noboru Ishiguro had a LOT to do with the success of the show and DYRL. That man was a genius. Other Studio Nue members had high influence on the show too and should not be forgotten.

Also, Macross has multiple timelines. Remember Macross II, which is part of the original sequel continuity?

But I wasn't talking about just the original Macross TV show and DYRL, but rather referring to Kawamori in his role of guiding Macross as a unified whole throughout it's various iterations (excluding Macross II), to make a mostly coherent continuity.

Macross has one (1) alternate timeline only (Macross II) spanning a grand total of one (1) OVA, which is nothing compared to Gundam, which not even counting the SD or the Build Fighters animes has nine (9) different continuities/universes: UC, FC, AC, AW, CC, CE, RC, AG & PD!!!!!

[Mr March]

I think both sides in the old vs. New argument are just folks taking stock in what they liked most. Yes, Macross is different now and can’t be the same as it was. Doesn’t mean one is forced to like current Macross, but it also won’t help folks re-write history to suit an agenda.

I recently posted about this on FB and it’s the same discussion. Some Macross fans liked the real robot aspects of the original Macross series. You can’t blame them for feeling that way or lamenting that those elements are no longer prioritized in modern Macross.

On the flip side, Macross can’t stay the same. It’s not old Macross anymore, but old fans also don’t own Macross either. The property can’t be the size and type of story it is by targeting a demographic from 30 years ago, most of whom no longer watch anime. Folks can either adapt to the way modern anime stories are told, or can fly into cane-waving rage about it. Yes, Macross Delta isn’t Gundam Thunderbolt. Maybe it could have been, but someone’s already doing that, so Macross went with Delta.

Personally, I’m really surprised by Delta. It really alienated me in the first preview episode, hitting you over the head with a very high level of absurdity. But it turns out absurdity was not the way it was going, at least not entirely. The episodes are much more character based and true to Macross than I originally thought. There are more and more scenes that are just pure Macross gold, IMO. I never thought this series would pull me in, but giving it a chance has paid off.

[guyxxed]

Well said.

There are definitely aspects of Delta (and Frontier, for that matter) that I don't care for and wish were different, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the aspects that I do enjoy. The magical girl stuff in the preview episode came towards the end, so that was the impression most people were left with, but on rewatch, most of what led up to those scenes was nicely grounded, very Macross, and fun worldbuilding. First watch through left me cold, but subsequent rewatches made me more enthusiastic. And the series itself has so far been doing a very good job of staying true to the roots of Macross and putting fun continuations and expansions of the world into each episode.

It all comes down to personal taste. At some point, Macross may cross the line from having enough of what I enjoy to not and I will stop following it, but it's not there yet. For others, that line may have been passed a long time ago (I thought it had happened for me at 7, but then the next series course corrected). Until then, Kawamori is like a Japanese George Lucas: he's going to take the franchise where he wants it to go, and the rest of us can either follow or not. So, until Disney buys up Macross and puts J.J. Abrams in charge of a reboot, I'll keep following.

[RNietzsche]

I'd love to see more one-shot ovas or movies that don't attempt to world build or advance the overall narrative, but instead just focus in characters in the universe. But maybe I just want more plus.

I think GG may have been trolling the audience a bit with the cat puns. I'm less sure they were trolling about my new favorite chemical compound "voldor bicarbonate" I guess that would be VoHCO3

As for the planet names, is this the first time Macross has fallen into the bad habit of indigenous place names being puns if earth locations? I'm hoping the names are "colonial names", like everything in Jamaica being named after English things. That would explain it, a bit.

Edited June 26, 2016 by RNietzsche

[Nazareno2012]

As for the planet names, is this the first time Macross has fallen into the bad habit of indigenous place names being puns if earth locations? I'm hoping the names are "colonial names", like everything in Jamaica being named after English things. That would explain it, a bit.

It should be because of colonial mentality, where the indigenous people of colonized lands quickly adopt the colonizer's imports, culture, etc. as they see it as "superior" to local stuff.

[RNietzsche]

It should be because of colonial mentality, where the indigenous people of colonized lands quickly adopt the colonizer's imports, culture, etc. as they see it as "superior" to local stuff.

I'll choose to believe that. I can accept the "entire planet has only one biome" trope for narrative ease, but the name stuff always feels lazy