Mommar Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 We need a meme for TF Collectors just getting into Macross... I can't think of anything meaner than "Go back to Wal-Mart"... ...I...Laughed...So...Hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 You so crazy EXO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidwhangchoi Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 We need a meme for TF Collectors just getting into Macross... I can't think of anything meaner than "Go back to Wal-Mart"... hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gakken85 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Probebly because the 1/48 angel bird scheme was unequivocally inferior to the 1/60 rendition. The red was too orange, the blue was too light, and the chest stripes were poorly composed. The 1/60 Angel bird is probably the best paint job of any 1/60 I've seen, and I have all the big variants except Milia and the ostrich(which is mostly red plastic and not paint) Really amazing when you get it up close. Edited March 21, 2014 by Gakken85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
close313 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I dont think I can compare TFs (official or third parties) to Valks. You can't get as faithful to the design as toys in the macross line, whether bandai or yamato, in all three modes. You can see the effort made into them to make them look as accurate as possible. Third party TFs,especially combiners, on the other hand have too much artistic liberty in them. Yes *some* have complex transformation but don't look like anything I grew up with. Thats probably the reason why I only collect the MP line for the effort done to make the characters as close to the original series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skullmilitia Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Show me a transformer with correctly sized gear, and accurate gear doors, all articulated and we can *start* to compare them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Yeah..I can't argue that there are some nice car transformers... but, where aircraft are concerned, valks are aircraft that turn into robots, while transformers tend to be something like a kid robot on halloween who pastes cardboard airplane parts all over his body, and tries to pass himself off as something that could potentially fly. Edited March 21, 2014 by Chronocidal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Brainx Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah..I can't argue that there are some nice car transformers... but, where aircraft are concerned, valks are aircraft that turn into robots, while transformers tend to be something like a kid robot on halloween who pastes cardboard airplane parts all over his body, and tries to pass himself off as something that could potentially fly. So true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimis Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah..I can't argue that there are some nice car transformers... but, where aircraft are concerned, valks are aircraft that turn into robots, while transformers tend to be something like a kid robot on halloween who pastes cardboard airplane parts all over his body, and tries to pass himself off as something that could potentially fly. Why would you say this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sildani Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Because it's the truth? Those re-dos of Thrust and company look terrible in airplane mode. The wings are too small, the fuselage is very boxy and unaerodynamic, and I'm willing to bet their undersides have a good amount of robot pieces/parts peeking out. Look at a Yamato/Arcadia Valkyrie, or a Bandai Renewal Messiah, and you'll see the difference. Wings are proportional, the fuselage has had a tremendous effort made to be streamlined, and the robot parts are, as much as possible, folded away or hidden. That's because the goals of the designs are different. Valkyrie toys are generally designed to look best in fighter mode and to match lineart as closely as possible, to the possible detriment of durability, ease of transformation, and cost. TF's are designed to look best in robot mode, are designed to be a bit more durable, and are cheaper, probably in no small part due to fewer parts that need to be made and screwed together on the assembly line, and wider distribution. The markets for TF's and Valks overlap, I'd say, but they are by no means congruent. Edited March 21, 2014 by Sildani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reïvaj Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 [...] TF's are designed to look best in robot mode [...] If that's true then they've miserably failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimis Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Because it's the truth? Those re-dos of Thrust and company look terrible in airplane mode. The wings are too small, the fuselage is very boxy and unaerodynamic, and I'm willing to bet their undersides have a good amount of robot pieces/parts peeking out. Look at a Yamato/Arcadia Valkyrie, or a Bandai Renewal Messiah, and you'll see the difference. Wings are proportional, the fuselage has had a tremendous effort made to be streamlined, and the robot parts are, as much as possible, folded away or hidden. That's because the goals of the designs are different. Valkyrie toys are generally designed to look best in fighter mode and to match lineart as closely as possible, to the possible detriment of durability, ease of transformation, and cost. TF's are designed to look best in robot mode, are designed to be a bit more durable, and are cheaper, probably in no small part due to fewer parts that need to be made and screwed together on the assembly line, and wider distribution. The markets for TF's and Valks overlap, I'd say, but they are by no means congruent. I was being a bit ironic. Obviously i agreed too and those deluxe coneheads probably have the least sophisticated transformation ever! You just push everything in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserstorm Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Funny how guys bashing transformers here compare 10 inch Valks with 6 inch deluxe transformers, Sure they're flawed figures, but take a 1/100 Toynami or Banpresto Valk for comparison and bash deluxe transformer figures then if you can. Compare a Masterpiece Starscream mold with a 1/60 Vf-1. You get a robot that looks great in both modes, has as an alt mode that is realistic as much as posible, with no kibble, as some here are trying to make point of that. You keep mentioning perfect transformation for Yamato Valks, when you know they aren't perfect, as they do have compromises adn do not follow the line art. You get more complex transformation and more movable parts in Masterpiece seeker which costs 3 times less than a 1/60 Vf-1. So yeah, transformers sure do suck when compared to Valkyries. I agree with a poster who mentioned smaller popularity of Macross in Japan and the inability to market the Valks outside of Japan as being responsible for a bigger price tag for Valks, but IMO it is only a part. Prime example is the production switch from Yamato to Arcadia, when the prices jumped from around $100 to around $160. And please don't try to tell me Arcadia had to buy the tooling and molds for the Valks, as Yamato certainly didn't get those from thin air with no cost to themselves. Heck, Yamato 1/48 Valks when came out, did cost the same as 1/60 Valks v2 before the price hike of Arcadia, and they use the same transformation, but also have additional parts like movable flaps, airbrake and a radar. If that's not price gouging from the manufacturer I don't know what is. And I'm not talking of second hand, scalper prices out of production Valks go these days. That's secondary market and I can somewhat understand that. The thing is Yamato and Arcadia took a look at what prices fans were willing to pay for Valks on the secondary market, and correctly judged that they can basically slap any price tag on their product and fans would lap it up, as long as it was less then on secondary market. Well, that's OK in a market economy, supply and demand yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean everybody should bend over and laugh while they're doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoon Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I don't think you can down play the levels of production so easily. You can walk into virtually and Kmart style of store almost anywhere in the world and find a collection of transformers. When the factory produces literally tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of pieces of the same design that's going to play a HUGE part in keeping the costs down on a per unit basis. Macross is a unique obsession, enjoy it - stop trying to compare it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaajin Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 valk >> tranny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yes, because the number of people buying 1/48s is totally consistent with the number of people buying 1/60s and the number of people buying 1/60s when they first came out is totally the same as the number buying them now. Imagine if Bandai came into the fold and started selling their own Macross merchandise spreading out the choices even more, if that happened then of course it would in no way affect the prices of Yamato valks. Speaking of Yamato, thank goodness they're still around... since, you know, they're too dumb to look at the prices fans are willing to pay for valks. I mean if they did that, they might decide to lower production numbers and raise prices (without considering today's manufacturing costs). I'm sure if they just kept doing things the way they did back in 2010 they'll be around forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Funny how guys bashing transformers here compare 10 inch Valks with 6 inch deluxe transformers, Sure they're flawed figures, but take a 1/100 Toynami or Banpresto Valk for comparison and bash deluxe transformer figures then if you can. I'd still take a Toynami 1/100 over 99% of the existing aircraft transformers. It's not a matter of production value, it's a matter of design standpoint, and personal preference. Valks are aircraft. They just happen to be able to turn into robots. The priority is looking like a functional aircraft, so that's what they're better at. Since I'm in this for the aircraft, it's also what I focus on. Transformers may be fine toys, but they're usually pretty freaking ugly as aircraft, no matter how much they cost. And you have to admit, even at the masterpiece level, all Starscream gets for landing gear is donuts pasted onto a flip-out panel. Do they function? Sort of. It's just a matter of priorities, and where the production companies want to spend their money for development. They're really not worth trying to compare, unless you like arguing about things like how baseball is more fun than basketball, and the like. It's pretty much the same level of topic. Anyway, I do miss the old prices Yamato had years ago, but unfortunately it wasn't enough to keep them afloat. The production costs for higher quality keep climbing, and Arcadia can't throw their weight around like Bandai to get things done (even Bandai seems to be terrible about that, considering how many tries it took to get the VF-25s right). Now, the future will be interesting.. Arcadia's current prices are higher than Yamato's were for the VF-1, but the YF-19 is roughly on-par for what the VF-19 series cost. If the VF-1s are overpriced, we may see them drop over time again once Arcadia gets solidly on their feet. If not? Then it's what the company needs to charge to break even, and I can live with that. Edited March 22, 2014 by Chronocidal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Now, the future will be interesting.. Arcadia's current prices are higher than Yamato's were for the VF-1, but the YF-19 is roughly on-par for what the VF-19 series cost. If the VF-1s are overpriced, we may see them drop over time again once Arcadia gets solidly on their feet. If not? Then it's what the company needs to charge to break even, and I can live with that. That isn't true. I paid 19,357 for the 19S, 18,720 for my 19F and 18,700 for my 19P. As opposed to the YF-19 which I've pre-ordered for 28,980. The YF-19 is more like the cost of the VF-4. Actually, that's even more then I paid for the VF-17D with the Super Packs which was 25,180. Edited March 22, 2014 by Mommar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) True, I'm going off of release amounts, and not converting currencies. I just remember getting the early VF-19 releases for about $250, and the YF-19 I've been seeing for $260-$280 depending on the shop. The shift in exchange rate since the Fire Valk came out has really helped prices for us. Edited March 22, 2014 by Chronocidal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Currently that sits at around $275 for me, which is more like the cost of the VF-17. The actual dollar amount for the VF-19S/F/P was around $230 each. It is lower then the VF-4G was, however, but the YF-19 is infinitely more popular so it's likely they know they can sell more and the price is adjusted down to reflect that. Edited March 22, 2014 by Mommar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reïvaj Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Don't forget the new YF-19 includes a lot of extras that the VF-19's didn't. Edited March 22, 2014 by Reïvaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanedas Bike Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Good grief. If you want it, and can afford it buy it, if not let the rest of us enjoy what we spend our money on. This argument about what a TOY is worth compared to another TOY gets recycled about twice a year - and it's always the same old thing. People buy what they want at the prices that are justifiable to them, not to every anonymous Tom, Dick and Harry on the internet. Speak with your wallet and keep on moving. -b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidwhangchoi Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) arrgh... i just got back home from work. i went to toy r us today to get horse optimus prime, a friend drove me from work during lunch hour. as i grabbed one off the shelf, but is was 150 and the web price is 130 so i had to go do a price match. my friend's wife called as said his mother in law just came down with tuberculosis so my friend told me he had to leave to pick up his wife and kids right away. damn... i left without getting prime... wait... this is the macross thread... if it was a vf-1 yamato on the shelf, i would've told my friend to tell his wife to wait outside in the cold. no way would i let a vf-1 valk pass. those suckers are way to cool. wait... that not the topic... i think MP's price gouge everyone. i can't believe people pay freakin 50 bucks for 2 cassettes masterpiece or not. and no grimlock is not worth 200 starscream is not worth 200. prime is not worth 250. oh wait. that's the same raised prices as gasp.... macross stuff... omg omg (i really don't know what's going on but hey! it's friday night) i'm really just kidding... i love MP/encore tf stuff but i love yamato arcadia macross more Edited March 22, 2014 by davidwhangchoi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightdramon Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 ...sigh...why is it that macross fans must always diss on TF products when things get tight? I am a fan and collector of both macross and TFs. I appreciate each of them for their own unique take they bring on my shelves and life as a series. Why is it so hard to get past the elitism and call it a day? For better or worse, Macross designs [not figures, not yet] are the works of just one person, and this unique person puts more emphasis on them being transforming airplanes rather than transforming robots. The lack of numbers in the fanbase, wordwide, means there's a prominent lack of low-end merchandise for this franchise. Conversely, high end merchandise is prevalent [...relatively] and each of the TWO companies at the moment, tries hard to emulate what's on paper. Admittedly, bandai is doing a better job with the frontier stuff because they were designed from the get-go to be fully transformable like this. The earlier designs [like M7] use too much anime-magic. People who see the lineart of, say, the VF17 side to side with the toy and think it's 100% accurate are fooling themselves. One way or another, the VF17 is inaccurate in every mode when compared to the lineart. Furthermore, the -only- VF1 figure that transforms the way it is supposed to, based on the holly lineart, is the more recent bandai kit, which came out 30 or so years late into the franchise. So how about we tone it down a little with the elitism about lineart and accuracy and all that when 50 billion VF1 toys and model kits later, it took 30 years to produce a somewhat fragile accurate model? Transformers, on the other hand, rarely strive to be collector-oriented in their releases. And because the G1 cartoon was guilty as well of using "anime" magic to transform and translate most toys into characters, it's a similar case of compromises being made in both modes for the final product to come out. Furthermore, unlike Macross, there is more than 1 designer working on things at the moment and there are definitely more designs coming out per year. -Arguably-, Macross has like 50 different mecha designs? Maybe I'm saying a lot, but I'm counting things like the VF22 and the YF21 as different designs. Transformers Prime, which only lasted for like 3 years, had more designs than that out, counting toy designs as well. So yeah, there's quite a difference of quality and quantity in those two franchises. TF toys are just that---toys designed to appeal to kids who are drawn to a franchise of robots at war with each other. Some of the toys are taken more seriously than others [MP figures, for instance], but it's still toys for children. Revolved around a franchise of war between robots. Macross figures are high-end toys designed to appeal to more or less adults, revolved around a show which...puts very little emphasis on the robot aspect. I recently watched Macross [original series] with my sister [a near complete stranger to the franchise]. She said that initially she thought it was a show about mecha, but it really wasn't at all. The mecha are just...there, rarely used as a medium to tell the story. So, to sum up...different goals, different options, different audiences, different numbers in fanbases...can we all get along now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 ...sigh...why is it that macross fans must always diss on TF products when things get tight? I am a fan and collector of both macross and TFs. I appreciate each of them for their own unique take they bring on my shelves and life as a series. Why is it so hard to get past the elitism and call it a day? For better or worse, Macross designs [not figures, not yet] are the works of just one person, and this unique person puts more emphasis on them being transforming airplanes rather than transforming robots. The lack of numbers in the fanbase, wordwide, means there's a prominent lack of low-end merchandise for this franchise. Conversely, high end merchandise is prevalent [...relatively] and each of the TWO companies at the moment, tries hard to emulate what's on paper. Admittedly, bandai is doing a better job with the frontier stuff because they were designed from the get-go to be fully transformable like this. The earlier designs [like M7] use too much anime-magic. People who see the lineart of, say, the VF17 side to side with the toy and think it's 100% accurate are fooling themselves. One way or another, the VF17 is inaccurate in every mode when compared to the lineart. Furthermore, the -only- VF1 figure that transforms the way it is supposed to, based on the holly lineart, is the more recent bandai kit, which came out 30 or so years late into the franchise. So how about we tone it down a little with the elitism about lineart and accuracy and all that when 50 billion VF1 toys and model kits later, it took 30 years to produce a somewhat fragile accurate model? Transformers, on the other hand, rarely strive to be collector-oriented in their releases. And because the G1 cartoon was guilty as well of using "anime" magic to transform and translate most toys into characters, it's a similar case of compromises being made in both modes for the final product to come out. Furthermore, unlike Macross, there is more than 1 designer working on things at the moment and there are definitely more designs coming out per year. -Arguably-, Macross has like 50 different mecha designs? Maybe I'm saying a lot, but I'm counting things like the VF22 and the YF21 as different designs. Transformers Prime, which only lasted for like 3 years, had more designs than that out, counting toy designs as well. So yeah, there's quite a difference of quality and quantity in those two franchises. TF toys are just that---toys designed to appeal to kids who are drawn to a franchise of robots at war with each other. Some of the toys are taken more seriously than others [MP figures, for instance], but it's still toys for children. Revolved around a franchise of war between robots. Macross figures are high-end toys designed to appeal to more or less adults, revolved around a show which...puts very little emphasis on the robot aspect. I recently watched Macross [original series] with my sister [a near complete stranger to the franchise]. She said that initially she thought it was a show about mecha, but it really wasn't at all. The mecha are just...there, rarely used as a medium to tell the story. So, to sum up...different goals, different options, different audiences, different numbers in fanbases...can we all get along now? So did you miss the part when the Transformers guy came in here and started bashing Macross first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaajin Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Guys, we are way...i mean WAY off topic here arent we?. No point in bashing each other when all it ends up to is a matter of preferences. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skullmilitia Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Did you know the 1J has the same landing gear as the normal VF-1A? Yes, MP transformers have realistic... De..tail.....a... Wha? Again, Apples to crowbars. Considering my broken shouldered 1/60 A Still gives better poses then the *new* MP-11 mold. Even the Kawamori designed seeker was better.. Meh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Guys, we are way...i mean WAY off topic here arent we?. No point in bashing each other when all it ends up to is a matter of preferences. Cheers! I think almost everyonehere has TFs here. I know I do. I love MP and 3rd party stuff. Just complaining about the TF n00b that complains about Macross prices.... I'm telling ya... We need a meme. It'll cut that conversation short! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrentonx Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) I like Transformers and I almost never buy a Transformer that turns into a plane. They just look terrible to me. I wouldn't waste 10 or 15 bucks on one. That to me is a waste. Buying five $15 to $20 Seekers when I can buy a really nice looking Valk every so often is a much better value. I don't want quantity. I want quality. This is my opinion though. The shopping cart wheels on the MP-11 mold and the way they designed the null ray attachment put me off that Masterpiece real quick and I love Masterpiece TFs. ...and yes, we understand perfect transformation doesn't literally mean "perfect." Most of us Valk collectors take it to mean no parts swapping and no shell forming (or at least a minimum). They transform as close to intended as possible and they do take liberties (hands that pop and swivel out instead of sliding out, for example). Main point is that most of us are fighter plane fans and it shows. I'm much more lenient when it comes to transforming cars and a little kibble here and there I can tolerate. Growing up as a fan of F-14s and F-15s, anything that deviates from what makes them look cool to me stands out like a sore thumb. Edited March 22, 2014 by xrentonx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanedas Bike Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Counting down the years before the 30th Anniversary 1J is commanding $ 300 on the secondary market and everyone who dissed the paint scheme (myself included) is clamoring for one. -b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrie Magnus Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Counting down the years before the 30th Anniversary 1J is commanding $ 300 on the secondary market and everyone who dissed the paint scheme (myself included) is clamoring for one. -b. Lol that will be me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidwhangchoi Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 i really don't know about this valk going up in price. i think they may be like the blk 19 and 1/48 anniversary valks. which really didn't take off in value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSenpai Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Actually, the 30th anniversary 1J going up in value would all but guarantee I would never buy it. The only way I could see myself buying it is if it were insanely cheap, like $50 shipped. And even then, the only reason I could see myself buying it is to either fiddle with customizing it, take it apart and use for spares, or to have one Yamarcadia valk that I just bang around and not feel bad about. OR if I had a big house where I could devote one entire room to Macross and be a completist, I could see the point in getting one. But I have limited space, so why would I buy and then take up precious display space for something so hideous, no matter how cheap it was, when I'd rather spend the money to buy and display something else that looks much nicer? That said, I don't begrudge anyone who would want one. Whatever floats your boat. I look at the 30th 1J as someone's ugly wife -- I might not think she's hot, but someone out there definitely does, and that's all that matters right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Actually, I'd love to get one just to use the canopy on another valk, since it's the only one in molded in that particular shade. But I'm not going to do that unless I see it drop to insanely low prices. And really.. I don't ever want it to reach those prices, because it'll mean Arcadia is having issues with selling it, and I'd rather not start down that path again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gakken85 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) I finally opened mine tonight and I have to say that I love this piece. I was a big naysayer but it's really pretty out of the box, even without decals. I might buy another since it's on sale. Edited June 8, 2014 by Gakken85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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