HG and Robotech Debates

[azrael]

... Harmony Gold's frequent attempts to ignore the existence of the originals,

I don't know about that...

...handwave them aside as inferior to their slipshod adaptation, and their occasional attempts to pretend that everything in Robotech was their idea.

That's not quite ignoring them if you're gonna wave them aside to push your product. HG isn't ignoring it if they have forum sections, a section in their FAQ and sell DVDs of the originals. Pushing their own product over the originals? Yes, that part is true.

..., I gotta call it as it is,,, a legal bootleg. ...

Well that's an oxymoron. I prefer, "Inferior brand name".

Sorry if this was covered before, but what benefits, if any, are there in delaying Shadow Rising? Why not just outright say it got cancelled?

More money in sponsors and promotion if the LAM works out for them. And if they have more money, ...

Why must Harmony Gold constantly hammer it into people's heads that Shadow Chronicles was such a mind-blowing success (if not sequel is being developed as late as 2009)? Can anyone deduce HG's gameplan?

Well, goshdarnit, when you set the height of the bar really low and it does better than height of the bar, you call it a "success", don'tcha know?

[terry the lone wolf]

Also you're not ignoring the originals when Tommy Yune always begins his convention appearances with "Hey, how many of you know about Robotech? OK, how many of you know about the dirty little secret about Robotech?"

[BeyondTheGrave]

Also you're not ignoring the originals when Tommy Yune always begins his convention appearances with "Hey, how many of you know about Robotech? OK, how many of you know about the dirty little secret about Robotech?"

But then he probably goes well were not going to talk about the originals but Robotech. *part of audience proceeds to leave*

[terry the lone wolf]

But then he probably goes well were not going to talk about the originals but Robotech. *part of audience proceeds to leave*

Hmmmmm... Conjecture anyone...

[Einherjar]

Also you're not ignoring the originals when Tommy Yune always begins his convention appearances with "Hey, how many of you know about Robotech? OK, how many of you know about the dirty little secret about Robotech?"

I always wondered if that was the best ice breaker to start with, especially if you have to discuss another seperate franchise that is overshadowing theirs product and quality wise at any given moment.

Hmmmmm... Conjecture anyone...

Actually, he said "horrible," not dirty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i30NJ7NZ6a8

Edited January 8, 2010 by Einherjar

[kung flu]

Since these douchebag's don't listen to Internet facts, may I ask of people who are on these boards who are from other countries to tell of there Legal age for sex Laws? Just incase Douchebag the Hut wants to come play and explain itself like an evolved creature... And yes, i would play nice should it come...

Thats one aspect of anime i don't really like is the " loli" type stuff, but characters in macross have never actually been shown to have sex. And even if they are legal age or not, they can still be boyfriend/girlfriend without the sex.

[VFTF1]

So much to reply to! This thread just never dies It's almost gotten to the point where Macrossworld has a more thriving Robotech fandom than Robotech.com

Please stop with the Robotech is bootleg of Macross. With that logic Voltron is a bootleg of Golion or Starblazers is a bootleg of Yamato, etc, etc, etc,.... Robotech is a product of the early 80's anime boom with western companies grabbing up inexpensive animated programs from Japan for broadcast in the U.S. Yes most of these were horribly edited or even translated but I feel RT did fare better than most.

Exo and Seto kind of addressed this issue - I'll just add my two cents.

To me - the business model Harmony Gold used in the 1980s, which back then was considered savy and intelligent - would now be considered bootlegging.

It's like a lot of things which were once elite and exclusive and now any old joe shmoe can do them.

The problem with Harmony Gold is that unlike other contemporary bootleggers, they pretend that what they are doing ISN'T just bootlegging.

Yes - before the internet and before globalization - bringing three anime over and re-dubbing them was a form of bringing something from a foriegn culture to America, and westernizing it and dubbing it and extending it for syndication were necessities of the times.

But those times are gone. Nowadays, the only people who do this are bootleggers.... and Harmony Gold.

Thus I laugh at them not because they are Bootleggers as such, but because they are Bootleggers who pretend to be doing something that isn't the equivalent of what KO factories and Bootleggers do nowadays - make a quick buck off of somebody elses work without showing any love for the original or the originators.

I've always felt that Shoji Kawamori & Shinji Aramaki's names should be listed above Ippi Kurri's name on the closing credits of Robotech. I don't think that Tatsunoko Productions was putting it out there some of anime productions they were distributing didn't come from their studio. I'm not naive into believing that HG was totally ignorant of Macross's origins but I can see how names got lost in the shuffle. Though in Robotech ART 1 Shoji Kawamori was credited in creating Macross & Shinji Aramaki got a mecha creator credit in Shadow Chronicles & the Art of the Shadow Chronicles.

Aaaaaaawwwwwwww....ain't that just swell. Shoji Kawamori's name was credited in a book that is out of print - in one sentence.

Because as we all know - that's pretty much the extent of Shoji Kawamorii's contribution. He's just some Asian guy.

The real genius was Carl Macek who wrote everything and Frank Agrama who produced everything.

Given how hard Carl Macek and the Harmony Gold crew worked on making Robotech the greatest Sci-Fi epic in human history - I agree. Radnom Asian dudes like Shoji Kawa-something or other can get lost in the shuffle.

But hey - even the little people deserve credit, so hats off to HG for being Big enough to give him a sentence or two in Robotech Art 1!

Y'know, you might be right...

Problem is, every American news program, every American news website, every other forum with American members has these un-informed, evolutionary-intellectually abscent members who share these qualities with the likes of those trash from RT.com. And y'know what? I'll give you that maybe not all American's are like that...but all the loudest ones are. So from the outside...what are we suppose to think? That you put all your most retarded people in positions that the world can see, for the purpose of the Worlds best act of Misdirection? And the things they say!?!?!!!

You people dont control these people, and heaven's forbid someone should use a cuss word to your baby-language

Im not saying that there arn't stupid people of that level in other countries...I can think of several Australian media personalities off the top of my head, in fact, who have acted like your news people (they usually come back because they can pay their fine)...

But I digress...

Going back to my original point, even in some parts of America (Thanks Beltane ), that relationship between Alto and Ranka is perfectly legal...

I believe it was VFTF1 or Protoculture...sorry, i forgot...earlier that wanted these people to expound on just what exactly they ment by their short-ended statements; "Robotech rules, Macross sucks"...okay...but WHY?

I really want an answer to that from those things... Since I draw the line at a dozen or so BANHAMMERS, I cant exactly go there to get answer's...

So where's MEMO? Where's Mav? Where are those of power who are allowing that particular thread in RT.com's Warzone to continue, so they can ban a bunch of "Macross Purists"? Even that ass, Steve Yun, is letting that thread go on its way... all in the name of the "4th Holy Robotech Crusade" (get it? 4th...as in the 4th Robotech War? ...nevermind... )

Actually, I read quite a few American websites on a regular, daily basis which are full of very intelligent and informed commentary. I even wrote up an article for one of them, if I may toot my own horn But they are there - and they are a diverse bunch.

The problem is, none of them are mainstream...

But then again - show me the country where intelligence is mainstream - I think it isn't and never has been.

At best, all you can hope for is that common sense would be main stream. People needn't all be intellectual powerhouses as long as they have good common sense and decent morals.

I personally get annoyed with foriegners ragging on Americans as "stupid" all the time while pretending to be the pinacle of wisdom and open-mindedness.

No open minded, wise person ever generalizes. It's fashionable to generalize that Americans are stupid - but no wise person ever mistakens what is fashionable for wisdom.

I DO agree that there are lots of stupid Americans and I also find many of the newspapers, and news outlets etc etc stupid and bad --- but for every example of a bad or stupid outlet, there's tons of good ones.

I'm sure it's the same in most countries.

The difference is that nobody has the nerve to generalize about other countries because that would be insensitive. Yo ucan't say Polacks don't know how to screw in a light bulb (even though they don't), or that Ruskies are drunkards, or that...well...I can't really write what I'm thinking because I can just see myself getting pounced on for "racism."

But see - either we accept that you can make general statements about countries and people (aka "Americans are stupid") and do so lightheartedly - that is...in a way that nobody's gonna get hyper sensitive and pounce on you ... or we don't.

Thing is... if you read good foriegn writers - they're always ragging on their own countries. Dostoyewski's view of the Russian peasantry is basically that Russia is full of barbarians - just to give an example. In Poland, most of the theatre artists I followed/associated with and whose plays I've gone to ALL believe that Poland is provincial and full of idiots.

If you go certain places in the US - particularly in the academia - you will find viral anti-Americanism amongst "educated" Americans who shun their "backwater" "yokel" "fly over country" folks.

In fact, I've found that it's usually likely that the people most inclined to look down on fly over country...were born there. It's actually the same in most countries. Lots of folks escape their small town or village roots, go to the city and try to transform themselves into refined cosmopolitans... And they think that to do this - they need to sneer at their simple roots and generally hold the vague opinion that their fellow countrymen are idiots.

There's always going to be some truth to the "people are stupid" mantra...

But it's important to keep in mind that we usually think this because we know something that "they" don't. But there's always stuff WE don't know either - and compared to some folks - we're the stupid ones...

I dunno... I just can't really stand the whole "are Americans stupid?" debate.

All the Americans I've known have been super intelligent, decent and cool people.

Pete, looking over Space Battles forum Robotech is much more of a general sci-fi fan niche driven by nostalgia.

There is fics there where Robotech is crossovered with B5.

There is a Robotech/Gundam Seed fic in the first page now of the Creativity forum.

Yeah the Gundam franchise's fans outnumber even us.

Another fic is weirder being a Robotech/Macross II/Macross 7.

Multi-universe hijinks as it were.

Macross fics there usually involve the Macross or its decendants crossoverering via fold misjump.

nBSG is a favorite crossover for Macross and its sequels, there being contrast and comparison between tech and story circumstances.

Hmm...sounds dubious ... It's been a loooooooong time since I read fanfiction. Mainly Transformers FF. It used to be super popular - and there were some reeallly great stories people wrote up.

But I think that was a function of

A) The internet coming int obeing

B) Coinciding with no Transformers on TV really, or even with BW being a mild rebirth...still there was this hunger for stories that wasn't being satiated...

Nowadays though - it seems like we get a deluge of anime every season and there's less demand for fan fiction...

Even my own story (linked below) is more Fan Fun than fan fiction

Although...ultiamtely - everybody who is a fan of a franchise usually writes some fanfiction in one form or another...it's inevitable...we want to be a part of the adventure and our imaginations run wild.

Pete

[Keith]

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say his over emphasis on the loli aspects of anime are a pretty big tell. Just as hardcore gaybashers tend to have repressed tendancies, I'd wager that this guys odd vendetta about anything even remotely loli in anime is to cover up latent pedo-tendancies in him.

[VFTF1]

Thats one aspect of anime i don't really like is the " loli" type stuff, but characters in macross have never actually been shown to have sex. And even if they are legal age or not, they can still be boyfriend/girlfriend without the sex.

Well - not in Macross proper...but I think the manga where it is shown is officially licensed, no?

Edit: Although - the closest thing we get to a sex scene in Macross proper is Ozma and Cathy... it's very tender but brief I still think NGE does a better job there...

Pete

Edited January 8, 2010 by VFTF1

[terry the lone wolf]

So much to reply to! This thread just never dies It's almost gotten to the point where Macrossworld has a more thriving Robotech fandom than Robotech.com

Exo and Seto kind of addressed this issue - I'll just add my two cents.

To me - the business model Harmony Gold used in the 1980s, which back then was considered savy and intelligent - would now be considered bootlegging.

It's like a lot of things which were once elite and exclusive and now any old joe shmoe can do them.

The problem with Harmony Gold is that unlike other contemporary bootleggers, they pretend that what they are doing ISN'T just bootlegging.

Yes - before the internet and before globalization - bringing three anime over and re-dubbing them was a form of bringing something from a foriegn culture to America, and westernizing it and dubbing it and extending it for syndication were necessities of the times.

But those times are gone. Nowadays, the only people who do this are bootleggers.... and Harmony Gold.

Thus I laugh at them not because they are Bootleggers as such, but because they are Bootleggers who pretend to be doing something that isn't the equivalent of what KO factories and Bootleggers do nowadays - make a quick buck off of somebody elses work without showing any love for the original or the originators.

Aaaaaaawwwwwwww....ain't that just swell. Shoji Kawamori's name was credited in a book that is out of print - in one sentence.

Because as we all know - that's pretty much the extent of Shoji Kawamorii's contribution. He's just some Asian guy.

The real genius was Carl Macek who wrote everything and Frank Agrama who produced everything.

Given how hard Carl Macek and the Harmony Gold crew worked on making Robotech the greatest Sci-Fi epic in human history - I agree. Radnom Asian dudes like Shoji Kawa-something or other can get lost in the shuffle.

But hey - even the little people deserve credit, so hats off to HG for being Big enough to give him a sentence or two in Robotech Art 1!

Let's see, to apply the word bootlegging you must mean something illegal happened or even theft. Let's see.. Big West sells it's international distribution rights to a company that has a path way into the American market...That would be Tatsunoko Productions who in turn by proxy gave Harmony Gold the rights to broadcast show in U.S. Was there something illegal that happened? Maybe the same illegality that led Sandy Frank to lease their rights to Gatchaman to Turner.

BTW, it's RANDOM not RADnom...

[Keith]

BTW, it's RANDOM not RADnom...

?! RUUUN!!

[Wanzerfan]

But hey, there's always the slight chance that they absolutely know what they're doing. Shadow Rising and the LAM IS in the works, it's just that Hollywood, anime/animation, sci-fi, and general entertainment sources haven't picked up any news about it because it's low key. It's so complex that a stuff like NDC really are needed when it's not practical for other less important projects. This is hardcore Hollywood gangbusters, ultra secret like, way better than Japanophile crap. So secret that only fanboys can understand it, and we'll all get our comeuppance in the traditional 80's fashion.

Secret my ass, most likely the franchise is in pre-production hell, where it belongs.

Who?

...Oh, nevermind...I'll do what no Robotech fan has ever done...

I'll look it up!

Start your search under "American Civil Rights era" with the keywords "Refusing to move to the back of the bus".

[VF5SS]

Thats exactly right. And thats how you can explain why Macross is superior to Robotech with just one reason. Who needs eight when this simple fact alone is enough to torpedo all pro-Robotech arguments.

Taksraven

There's really nothing more than can be said. There should have been a transitional step to get everyone into Macross and off of Robotech. Instead they made comics that only Robotech fans read and novels that only Robotech fans read and a movie that only Robotech fans buy.

Robotech is obsolete.

[VFTF1]

Re: Bootleg = illegal

Well - if that's your definition of bootleg, then of course Robotech is not a bootleg.

That said, my definition of bootleg is simply taking one work of fiction and radically changing some of its' elements - say dubbing over it with dialogue that gives it completely new meaning - and making it into a different one.

My only point here was to make what I thought was an interesting observation - namely that the method which HG works by - taking an anime and using its' animation but re-writing the story to mean something else is similar to the contemporary method used in most bootlegs which also substitute a dub or sub line that has nothing to do with the original story.

Nobody is questioning that Robotech happened legally - it's just that the form it took was a viable business model in 1980 prior to the internet and has now been relegated to crappy bootlegs.

Yet HG persists in trying to use the same business model - the same approach to the anime.

They'd be better off re-launching and marketing Macross as Macross, Mospedea as Mospeda and SOuthern Cross as Southern Cross and cooperating with the companies in Japan that continue these properties.

If I had international licensing rights to Macross - you bet that's what I'd be doing.

Why waste money making a crapy movie like Shadow Chronicles when you can cooperate with BW to bring Macross Frontier etc to the USA?

If the reason is because they are delussionally attached to Robotech uber alles - then I think that's bad. The whole point back in the 80s was to bring anime to the USA - not to create something radically new.

If their creation at least had any merit - then great. But it has no merit really, and certainly not compared to the original.

I know, I know -BW apparently don't want to work with them.

But I think if HG fired all the guys who have anything to do with Robotech right now and installed in their place people who have a good reputation in the anime industry, who are respected by the Japanese - then BW would turn and cooperate.

What HG is doing is fanwank and makes no business sense. I would totally understand it if they had a great story and concept - but they don't.

And their fanbase is pretty "retarted" ... would be better to ditch the "retarts" and let them keep going with their fanfiction and pedophilia hunts and do what makes both business sense AND embraces a better story.

Of course - if HG honestly believes Robotech IS the better story...well... it's their bed...they'll sleep in it...

Edit: re Random/Radnom - spelling mistakes on the internet are like Pokemon - you can never quite catch them all even though ya gotta

Pete

Edited January 8, 2010 by VFTF1

[kung flu]

Well - not in Macross proper...but I think the manga where it is shown is officially licensed, no?

Edit: Although - the closest thing we get to a sex scene in Macross proper is Ozma and Cathy... it's very tender but brief I still think NGE does a better job there...

Pete

Well ozma and cathy are two consenting adults, if they fully implied a wee loli was to have sex then i would find it disturbing even though its not real.

I'm not sure what robotech fans are saying about "macross" cos i don't follow that franchise, but if they are saying macross is paedo material its kind of sad since macross is the source material for their beloved robotech.

The fact that Klan Klang miniturizes into a wee girl is not paedo, its actually humourous that an ace pilot like her is reduced to a little girl.

[Moly_Sigang]

Anyone here thinks HG should change the website name of Robotech.com into a more appropriate. like HGFanboys.com. It'll have the tagline: 'The Official Website of Harmony Gold Fanboys.' I mean, However we look at it, that site no longer function as the official website for Robotech. There are hardly any Robotech fans left there. Just HG fanboys.

[Seto Kaiba]

Thats exactly right. And thats how you can explain why Macross is superior to Robotech with just one reason. Who needs eight when this simple fact alone is enough to torpedo all pro-Robotech arguments.

Even the simple fact that Robotech is a niche title that exists at the expense of a legitimate franchise isn't really necessary to demolish the majority of the arguments in Robotech's favor since they all usually boil down to one or more of the following: nostalgia-induced rose-tinted glasses, ignorance of the originals and real anime in general, and a xenophobic or lazy desire to avoid having to learn something about another culture.

I don't know about that...

You should go back and read some of Carl Macek's old interviews sometime... on several occasions he tries to claim that the animation was made specifically for Robotech, and/or that the series is entirely his creation.

That's not quite ignoring them if you're gonna wave them aside to push your product. HG isn't ignoring it if they have forum sections, a section in their FAQ and sell DVDs of the originals. Pushing their own product over the originals? Yes, that part is true.

Ignoring them doesn't fly anymore now that the existence of the originals is common knowledge... it wasn't thus back in the earlier years of Robotech. Now they try to handwave aside the originals as either utterly unimportant, nowhere near as good as the adaptation, or generally not worth watching. Especially when they pump Carl Macek for remarks on how he thinks he did a much better job with the story than the Japanese creators did, and remarks taken out of context to make it sound like Studio Nue thought Robotech was a superior story.

Also you're not ignoring the originals when Tommy Yune always begins his convention appearances with "Hey, how many of you know about Robotech? OK, how many of you know about the dirty little secret about Robotech?"

See my clarification above.

[terry the lone wolf]

Memo, Pizza, & Bendo...I've have no love or loyalty to those guys; I read their posts on RT.com & here and I feel their ravings have hurt the RT fan base. Banning people who have a different perspective is wrong and shows you're not willing to debate. Though, I believe there are zealots on both sides; both have emotional attachment to their shows and both having valid points. I've read and seen the same interviews as Seto and I see his point. I have the interview that Macek did to sell Robotech the Movie and yes in a roundabout way it does look like the MZ23 animation was made for RT. Even the ART 1 & 2 books could give you the impression that Studio Nue was commissioned by HG. I have to play devil's advocate here; it's not Carl Macek's job to reveal all the history of RT in every interview he gives. Example: "Hey, I got this really great show. It has 80+ episodes and you know what we didn't really animate it. Nope we sure didn't. Actually we bought it from Japan.. Yes we sure did. Now you know why Keith from Voltron looks so much Mark from Battle of the Planets; they're all from a foreign country..." Carl Macek's job was to push his show which happens to utilize footage they spliced together from other shows. RT wasn't unique other animes were spiced together (Captain Harlock, Macron-1, & Voltron). Maybe it was that Japanese animation wasn't widely known in the states;they could get away with these new Franken-shows but these paved the way for the current anime market.

[Freiflug88]

There is a Robotech/Gundam Seed fic in the first page now of the Creativity forum.

Yeah the Gundam franchise's fans outnumber even us.

Makes sense. Gundam Seed's Cosmic Era fits somewhere on the Macross Timeline right? I mean with its music idols, love triangles, space whale corpse, and two enemy combants getting into a knife before falling in love its got to be a Macross show right?

Speaking of Gundam Seed. Doug Bendo complains about Ranka nudity through astral projection being child porn, but is there any record of him complaining about such things in Gundam Seed? I remember watching the final episodes of Gundam Seed on Cartoon Network Friday nights at Midnight (almost as late as Macross Frontier's timeslot) and they didn't have any issues depicting the 15 year old Flay in the nude while she hugs Kira in her astral projection moment.

Thats one aspect of anime i don't really like is the " loli" type stuff, but characters in macross have never actually been shown to have sex.

Label it good directing on Macross's part. There was a directior (can't remember his name off the top of my head) was asked why he always does this R-rated action movies, but yet never shows any sex in his movies. His response was something like "Explosions, fights, battles, etc, is something everyone wants to WATCH. Sex is something everyone would rather DO."

[Seto Kaiba]

Memo, Pizza, & Bendo...I've have no love or loyalty to those guys; I read their posts on RT.com & here and I feel their ravings have hurt the RT fan base. Banning people who have a different perspective is wrong and shows you're not willing to debate.

It's not just that they're trying to suppress debate and the free expression of opinion among fans of Robotech, the real problem is their obvious ulterior motives for doing so. Given his behavior in the various legal threads on RT.com, Maverick reacts so violently to his assertions being questioned because he wants to be seen as a well-connected fan with inside knowledge and to exert his authority over others because his wife wears the pants at home. It's pretty much common knowledge that MEMO does because he's hoping if he sucks up to Harmony Gold enough he'll be the next fan to be offered a job by Harmony Gold. Doug Bendo does it because he's eager to stir up as much drama as possible to entice/goad people onto his podcast and try to validate his claim that he's the #1 Robotech fan and #1 authority on the Robotech universe. Pizza's motivations are unclear, but I'm relatively sure he's doing it because he knows that so long as he toadies up to MEMO he can do whatever he likes without being banned.

Though, I believe there are zealots on both sides; both have emotional attachment to their shows and both having valid points.

Wait, you've found a Robotech fan with a cogent, well-reasoned argument in Robotech's favor? DON'T KEEP IT TO YOURSELF MAN! That's the holy grail we've been chasing for years! It's unheard of... like an honest politician or a client-friendly HMO.

I've read and seen the same interviews as Seto and I see his point. I have the interview that Macek did to sell Robotech the Movie and yes in a roundabout way it does look like the MZ23 animation was made for RT. Even the ART 1 & 2 books could give you the impression that Studio Nue was commissioned by HG.

It's not just those, but I'm glad you see where I'm coming from here...

I have to play devil's advocate here; it's not Carl Macek's job to reveal all the history of RT in every interview he gives. [...] Carl Macek's job was to push his show which happens to utilize footage they spliced together from other shows. RT wasn't unique other animes were spiced together (Captain Harlock, Macron-1, & Voltron).

You're correct... to a point. If our controversial friend Carl Macek had simply stuck to the facts instead of trying to exaggerate his role in the production process and make it appear as though he were the show's visionary creator (ala Gene Roddenberry) instead of just a moderately competent editor, Robotech would probably be held in higher regard than it is today. It can be excused to some extent while America remained largely ignorant of anime, but once the anime industry took off and the show's origins came to light, they should've let go of the pretense that they'd created the show. Instead, they made a relatively minor change of tack, maintaining that the story was entirely their creation, but that it was used to drastically improve three unrelated, inferior Japanese shows that would otherwise not be worth paying any heed to.

This is the same strategy they're still using today... "Yes, we acknowledge that Robotech was made from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, but the story's all us and it's much much better than those crappy Japanese shows. You can look into them if you want, but Robotechs much better."

Speaking of Gundam Seed. Doug Bendo complains about Ranka nudity through astral projection being child porn, but is there any record of him complaining about such things in Gundam Seed? I remember watching the final episodes of Gundam Seed on Cartoon Network Friday nights at Midnight (almost as late as Macross Frontier's timeslot) and they didn't have any issues depicting the 15 year old Flay in the nude while she hugs Kira in her astral projection moment.

I was an invited guest on his podcast when he discussed Gundam's various alternate universe shows (badly, with frequent errors)... he never even mentioned Flay's nudity, or the fact that Kira farts her later on in the series... which is shown on screen BTW.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[VF5SS]

Maybe it was that Japanese animation wasn't widely known in the states;they could get away with these new Franken-shows but these paved the way for the current anime market.

That's debatable. There's too many factors involved to cite those terribad hackjobs as being essential.

[pondo]

to add to a thread I haven't read (what's the point), There are only THREE things where I think the robotech "remix" of the macross saga surpassed the original

- the voice dub. I really like the voice acting. It's not just nostalgia. They really nailed those characters. FAR more depth than english cartoon series of the day.

-Roy. I can't stand his 2-dimensional american hot shot in the SDFM. It was the japanese writing the character of an american soldier. It was practically racist. But in robotech, you could really see the "sempai" relationship he had with rick

- The fact that they wrote a new song for the "rain of death" attack on earth.

Other than that, it's rubbish.

[Moly_Sigang]

Memo, Pizza, & Bendo...I've have no love or loyalty to those guys; I read their posts on RT.com & here and I feel their ravings have hurt the RT fan base. Banning people who have a different perspective is wrong and shows you're not willing to debate. Though, I believe there are zealots on both sides; both have emotional attachment to their shows and both having valid points. I've read and seen the same interviews as Seto and I see his point. I have the interview that Macek did to sell Robotech the Movie and yes in a roundabout way it does look like the MZ23 animation was made for RT. Even the ART 1 & 2 books could give you the impression that Studio Nue was commissioned by HG. I have to play devil's advocate here; it's not Carl Macek's job to reveal all the history of RT in every interview he gives. Example: "Hey, I got this really great show. It has 80+ episodes and you know what we didn't really animate it. Nope we sure didn't. Actually we bought it from Japan.. Yes we sure did. Now you know why Keith from Voltron looks so much Mark from Battle of the Planets; they're all from a foreign country..." Carl Macek's job was to push his show which happens to utilize footage they spliced together from other shows. RT wasn't unique other animes were spiced together (Captain Harlock, Macron-1, & Voltron). Maybe it was that Japanese animation wasn't widely known in the states;they could get away with these new Franken-shows but these paved the way for the current anime market.

It does make you wonder how from being 'Hey we have this awesome new property from Japan called Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and we want to show it in the US' got twisted into 'ORIGINAL CONTENT, DO NOT COPY!!'.

[Gubaba]

to add to a thread I haven't read (what's the point), There are only THREE things where I think the robotech "remix" of the macross saga surpassed the original

- the voice dub. I really like the voice acting. It's not just nostalgia. They really nailed those characters. FAR more depth than english cartoon series of the day.

This is naturally a matter of opinion, but I think Dan Woren and Lisa's voice actress (Aline Leslie? Is that right?) were pretty good, but Tony Oliver's got too much of a "Golly-gee-whillikers" sound to his voice, and Reba West sounds like way TOO much of an airhead. Plus, Mari Iijima sounds cute without being annoying, and can actually SING. And even Dan Woren and Aline Leslie (that IS right, isn't it?) aren't a patch on Akira Kamiya and Mika Doi.

Gloval's Russian accent was kind of ridiculous, in my view, and Sho Hayami as cool, smooth Max is way better than Jimmy Flinders' "wow, gosh, I'm a genius?" Max.

-Roy. I can't stand his 2-dimensional american hot shot in the SDFM. It was the japanese writing the character of an american soldier. It was practically racist. But in robotech, you could really see the "sempai" relationship he had with rick

This is kinda funny, because when you really look at it, I don't think there's a single "foreign" character in Macross. Yes, Minmay's supposed to be half-Chinese, Shammy supposed to be Finnish, Max is...what, French? Something like that. But everyone in the show strikes me as really Japanese. Yes, even Focker. So, in my view, maybe you're seeing something that isn't really there...? Or maybe I am. I dunno.

- The fact that they wrote a new song for the "rain of death" attack on earth.

To make up for the fact that Minmei "debuted" "Stage Lights Flashing" about three different times , once as the theme song for a kung-fu movie.

Robotech has four Minmei songs, Macross has eight. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Other than that, it's rubbish.

On THAT, we agree.

[Bri]

RT wasn't unique other animes were spiced together (Captain Harlock, Macron-1, & Voltron). Maybe it was that Japanese animation wasn't widely known in the states;they could get away with these new Franken-shows but these paved the way for the current anime market.

RT has a place in bringing anime to the west, but I'm tempted to say it's largely due to shows like Pokemon, Dragonball Z and Sailormoon

I was an invited guest on his podcast when he discussed Gundam's various alternate universe shows (badly, with frequent errors)... he never even mentioned Flay's nudity, or the fact that Kira farts her later on in the series... which is shown on screen BTW.

Shagging Kira earned the poor Flay the biggest deathmark in the history of Gundam. Off course for a gundam pilot to actually get some before dying a bitter young vigin upset the natural order of Tomino and Kira evolved to the next stage..wait

This is naturally a matter of opinion, but I think Dan Woren and Lisa's voice actress (Aline Leslie? Is that right?) were pretty good, but Tony Oliver's got too much of a "Golly-gee-whillikers" sound to his voice, and Reba West sounds like way TOO much of an airhead. Plus, Mari Iijima sounds cute without being annoying, and can actually SING. And even Dan Woren and Aline Leslie (that IS right, isn't it?) aren't a patch on Akira Kamiya and Mika Doi.

Melanie McQueen isn't it?

RT did have a good voice cast compared to even current dubs, but it's far from the quality of voice acting displayed in original anime. Voice acting in Japan is a real profession with years of vacational training and it shows.

[hulagu]

Gloval's Russian accent was kind of ridiculous, in my view, and Sho Hayami as cool, smooth Max is way better than Jimmy Flinders' "wow, gosh, I'm a genius?" Max.

I agree, Max is one of the big mischaracterizations in Robotech.

Robotech has four Minmei songs, Macross has eight. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

What were the other two? I only ever remember "Stagefright" and "We Will Win". The first was utterly terrible, the latter was a glorified fight song (I think Ranka's militaristic Aimo may be lampshading this) thematically inappropriate for its purpose in that scene. No wonder Robotech can't run with the "music and not weapons won the war" theme.

[pondo]

To make up for the fact that Minmei "debuted" "Stage Lights Flashing" about three different times , once as the theme song for a kung-fu movie.

Robotech has four Minmei songs, Macross has eight. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

On THAT, we agree.

yes, the robotech music was horrible and out of tune, but "we will win" was a good moment. And in my opinion, it was pivotal that a new, more appropriate song was used. Much like in DYRL

[Gubaba]

What were the other two? I only ever remember "Stagefright" and "We Will Win". The first was utterly terrible, the latter was a glorified fight song (I think Ranka's militaristic Aimo may be lampshading this) thematically inappropriate for its purpose in that scene. No wonder Robotech can't run with the "music and not weapons won the war" theme.

Let's see...there was, "To Be in Love," and...um...one more? I think?

yes, the robotech music was horrible and out of tune, but "we will win" was a good moment. And in my opinion, it was pivotal that a new, more appropriate song was used. Much like in DYRL

I think "Love Drifts Away" is more appropriate to the moment, since it's about hating war, and songs about A) peace, and B) love would probably deliver the biggest mindfucks to the Zentradi. "We Will Win" delivers a sentiment that the Zentradi could really grasp, I think (the sentiment being: VICTORY!!).

I may be splitting hairs here, though.

[Jasonc]

- the voice dub. I really like the voice acting. It's not just nostalgia. They really nailed those characters. FAR more depth than english cartoon series of the day.

-Roy. I can't stand his 2-dimensional american hot shot in the SDFM. It was the japanese writing the character of an american soldier. It was practically racist. But in robotech, you could really see the "sempai" relationship he had with rick

- The fact that they wrote a new song for the "rain of death" attack on earth.

I agree that the original VAs did a wonderful job on Robotech. there's not much debating in that. But, in comparing it to Macross, I think it's on par. Same could be said of Macross, with the exception of ADV's version of the english dub of Macross, that was a butcher.

As fort he idea of Roy, Roy was about the same in Robotech as he was in Macross.

Macross didn't really need to write new songs for certain episodes, because the amount of BGM and vocal tracks they had was quite large, and it fit well in all areas. In the music area of BGM, Macross and Robotech did quite well in that dept., and I hate comparing them, since music is something I am quite fond to. I'm not gonna judge one better than the other, because the art and effort people went through, to put it all together is unique, and whether one likes it or not, it conveys not only the emotion of the show, but of the composer as well. I feel though, in the vocal tracks, Macross has a much bigger leg up than Robotech did. What I'm talking about is the Macross Saga and SDF Macross. Reba West sang these songs as part of the job, and they were intended as just that. However, Mari Iijima sang not only as the job required, but also sang as a professional. You can tell a lot more emotion and quality went into those than Robotech's did. I'd put the New Generation vocal tracks completely seperate, and therefore, I don't think they are to be compared here.

[Seto Kaiba]

to add to a thread I haven't read (what's the point), There are only THREE things where I think the robotech "remix" of the macross saga surpassed the original

Oh joy, let's see where this goes... with a location like "Tirol" in your profile I'm almost afraid this'll be the next Captain Christopher Donovan.

- the voice dub. I really like the voice acting. It's not just nostalgia. They really nailed those characters. FAR more depth than english cartoon series of the day.

Okay... that's really more a statement of opinion than anything else... and not a commonly-held opinion either. Even Robotech fans generally think the voice acting in Robotech is kind of weak, rife with poor casting decisions and awkward, heavily dated dialogue. My own rebuttal would consist of just three names... "Rebecca Forstadt", "Greg Finley", and "Cam Clarke". Awkward, stilted, borderline bad Trek fanfic dialogue aside, Rebecca Forstadt's portrayal of Minmei was painful on the ears even when she wasn't singing, Greg Finley's horrible faux-Russian accent was every bit as obnoxiously stereotypical as Star Trek's Pavel Chekhov, and Cam Clarke's kind of reedy nerd voice was just totally at odds with Max's reputation as a hotshot.

Of course, when you put it in context against the American sci-fi/action cartoons of the day, they weren't exactly great either, so it might be said to compare favorably. Still, even by 1990s standards, the RT dub was atrocious.

-Roy. I can't stand his 2-dimensional american hot shot in the SDFM. It was the japanese writing the character of an american soldier. It was practically racist. But in robotech, you could really see the "sempai" relationship he had with rick

Again, I disagree. To a minor extent, Roy did fulfill some of the stereotypical aspects of the loudmouth American hotshot, but there were also a number of instances where that stereotype was subverted in Roy's case in Macross. Robotech's Roy is the very picture of the two-dimensional American hotshot pilot, especially outside the TV series.

Macross takes an approach rather like Star Trek: the Next Generation, where most of the cast has an established ethnic background, but they never really play anyone off as the token foreigner or force anyone to stick out as the result of not being from "around here". The Robotech adaptation follows an approach more like the original Star Trek series, where most of the cast fits the comfortable white American mold, with a few highly visible stereotypical foreigners thrown in to make the cast sound multicultural... like Henry Gloval and Dr. Lang.

- The fact that they wrote a new song for the "rain of death" attack on earth.

Robotech's Minmei has five songs, two of which are repeated endlessly and the other three which are almost never used. Macross's Minmay had about eight songs, which affords them far greater variety.

Was the new song good? Survey says "no". In the six years I was on Robotech.com only twice did I ever see anyone attempt to defend Minmei's singing as something other than an experience in auditory torture more fit for the ATF to use to break standoffs than as a form of entertainment. Generally speaking, even veteran Robotech fans reach for the mute button when Rebecca Forstadt starts crooning. She freely admits that she knows she's a lousy singer too, and claims they had to loosen her up with liquor before they could get her to sing.

Factor in the fact that Robotech uses the same Minmei songs over and over again across three sagas and a movie, whereas Macross has a continual influx of new music, and the numbers get far, FAR less favorable for Robotech...

[hulagu]

I think "Love Drifts Away" is more appropriate to the moment, since it's about hating war, and songs about A) peace, and B) love would probably deliver the biggest mindfucks to the Zentradi. "We Will Win" delivers a sentiment that the Zentradi could really grasp, I think (the sentiment being: VICTORY!!).

Yeah, hearing the puny enemy sing about how he's totally going to pwn you doesn't really make one stop and reconsider one's lifestyle, it makes one want to kick the smug so-and-so's ass as an object lesson even more.

[Marzan]

Let's see...there was, "To Be in Love," and...um...one more? I think?

I think its called "The Man in My Life" or something like that...

[Seto Kaiba]

I think its called "The Man in My Life" or something like that...

There are five songs: "Stage Fright", "The Man in My Life", "To Be in Love", "We Will Win", and "It's You". There's also a partial song that crops up in episode 28 called "The Right Move".

[Gubaba]

There are five songs: "Stage Fright", "The Man in My Life", "To Be in Love", "We Will Win", and "It's You". There's also a partial song that crops up in episode 28 called "The Right Move".

I have no memory whatsoever of "It's You," "the Man in My Life," or "The Right Move," but that's probably for the best.

But don't forget the once-mentioned but never-actually-heard Robotech song, "My Boyfriend Is a Pilot." Wonder what that one was supposed to sound like...?

[kung flu]

RT has a place in bringing anime to the west, but I'm tempted to say it's largely due to shows like Pokemon, Dragonball Z and Sailormoon

I believe pokeman and all that jazz are responsible for the explosion of anime/ japanese pop culture in the west and not robotech, at least in the UK. Before pokemon there was hardly any anime available in the shops except for a few crap releases from manga entertainment.

I've never really heard of robotech, till the late 90s, i'd already seen macross and gundam at that time thanks to relatives from hong kong bringing it over. I have since learned that robotech was shown in the UK but no one in my generation watched it or even talked about it. Everyone remembers transformers, thundercats turtles...........etc, but not robotech.

I find it strange that a franchise so huge gets little mention here in the UK.