Macross Class vs New Macross Class

[RedWolf]

Watching episode 27 of SDF Macross, DYRL and Macross Plus and the final Macross Frontier episode.

Is the Macross Class more better armed than the New Macross Class?

New Macross Class Battle 7

Armament:

# 1 x Gunship Main Gun super beam weapon, 100 degrees elevation when latched to holder grip, less than 1 shot/60 min, capable of independant maneuvering (mounted forward ventral hull in Carrier mode, starboard manipulator in Attack mode)

# 4 x Beam Weapons (mounted under stealth covers facing forward in Carrier mode, shoulders facing forward in Attack mode)

New Macross Class Battle Frontier

Armament:

# 1 x Gunship Main Gun super beam weapon, 100 degrees elevation when latched to holder grip, less than 1 shot/60 min, capable of independant maneuvering (mounted forward ventral hull in Carrier mode, starboard manipulator in Attack mode)

# 4 x Beam Weapons (mounted under stealth covers facing forward in Carrier mode, shoulders facing forward in Attack mode)

# many x large double-cannon and triple-cannon turrets (mounted amidships dorsal side and port/starboard in Carrier mode; mounted upper dorsal torso and right/left shoulders in Attack mode)

SDF-1 Macross Pre-Refit

Armament:

# 1 x OverTechnology Macross super-dimension-energy cannon with beam polarizing converging system (bow)

# 8 x OverTechnology guided converging beam cannons

# 4 x high speed 178 cm electro magnetic rail cannons

# many x large automatic anti-ship missile launchers

# many x various missile emplacements

Macross Class

Armament:

# 1 x OverTechnology Macross super-dimension-energy cannon with beam polarizing converging system (bow)

# 8 x OverTechnology guided converging beam cannons

# 4 x high speed 178 cm electro magnetic rail cannons

# many x large automatic anti-ship missile launchers

# many x various missile emplacements

# many x various anti-ship and anti-fighter rotating cannon emplacements (presumably upgraded post-2012)

Added to the fact the Macross Class uses Destroids.

I think the Macross Class can take on a New Macross Class anyday.

[d3v]

Well, we still don't have a proper count of how many extra beam cannons the later NMC carriers have. However, the NMC's do seem to be more dependent on their fighter screen than the original Macross class.

[Sulendil Ang]

Hah, my favourite topic.

Do remember that NMC, at the end of day, function more like an aircraft carrier: they never meant to be fighting without proper escorts and wings. Even with its BFG, I don't think that NMC can win any ship-to-ship battles with their own armaments. (Ok, there is the infamous twin Macross attacks on Macross Galaxy, but the key word here is twin. )

On the other hand, Macross class is a well built destroyer, designed to escort other bigger ships (such as NMC) and to destroy enemy fleets using more complex maneuvers. Look at the armaments of Macross itself, and you will understand why: with its BFG, beam cannons, rail cannons, and missiles launchers, they are much suited to do ship-to-ship battle than NMC.

[Trazial]

I just want a clarification. When you list SDF-1 Pre-Refit, are you stating it as the version from the Televsion show or DYRL. Just want to make sure I know which you are referencing before I reply.

[Sulendil Ang]

I just want a clarification. When you list SDF-1 Pre-Refit, are you stating it as the version from the Televsion show or DYRL. Just want to make sure I know which you are referencing before I reply.

Both television and DYRL? version of SDF-1 has the same armaments, I think.

[RedWolf]

I just want a clarification. When you list SDF-1 Pre-Refit, are you stating it as the version from the Televsion show or DYRL. Just want to make sure I know which you are referencing before I reply.

Macross TV is the Pre-Refit one.

You see in Macross Flashback and Macross Plus it is obvious that the Macross was rebuilt.

Thus the refit version.

In Macross Plus we see more gun turrets for pinpoint defenses. See how Isamu tries to avoid the flak fire of Sharon Apple.,

[akt_m]

Macross TV is the Pre-Refit one.

You see in Macross Flashback and Macross Plus it is obvious that the Macross was rebuilt.

Thus the refit version.

In Macross Plus we see more gun turrets for pinpoint defenses. See how Isamu tries to avoid the flak fire of Sharon Apple.,

Was it really rebuild, or kawamori just wanted to make the DYRL design canon??

Edited October 6, 2008 by akt_m

[Sulendil Ang]

Was it really rebuild, or kawamori just wanted to canon DYRL designs??

Depends on how you see it. In Flashback 2012, we do see the Macross City when Megaroad launched, and it's clearly seen that SDF-1 has the DYRL? designs. Combined the fact that Macross did get badly destroyed once in the end of TV series, and FB 2012 is the sequel of it, we get the idea that the Macross is simply undergoes refits.

Of course, there's no denying that Kawamori loves DYRL? designs, and he will uses them whenever he can.

[Mr March]

I believe firepower levels would depend upon the destructive power of the Macross Super-Dimension-Energy cannon compared to that of the New Macross Super Beam Weapon. If the NMC main gun is supposed to be more destructive than the original Macross Class, then I suppose technically the NMC has more firepower. The main gun would be the benchmark. But even so, the Macross Class capability to fire the main gun more than once would likely mean that a lesser power main gun that can fire more often is far more combat practical than a heavier, one-shot weapon.

Having said that, I don't think there can be any argument that the original Macross Class is by far the more devastating of the two classes of warship. Particularly in fleet-to-fleet engagements, the Macross Class has far more firepower, more combat variable fighters/non-variable mecha and much more potent offense/defense. Even if we were to use the more heavily armed Battle Galaxy/21 and Battle Frontier/25 as the benchmark for the NMC (as opposed to the more lightly armed Battle 5 or Battle 7) the old Macross Class has far more weapons of all classes.

The big factor is to remember the ARMDs. Alone, the Macross Class may have as many weapons as the most heavily armed NMC (likely more), but the addition of two ARMD Class vessels adds even more firepower to the Macross vessels. Each ARMD has 5 x guided converging beam cannons, many x small anti-aircraft beam weaponry, 2 x large forty-meter-long (approximately) automatic anti-celestrial-object anti-ship missile launchers, 6 x large automatic guided anti-ship missile launchers and many x small anti-aircraft missile weaponry. So total weapons on the SDF-1 (2012 refit) would be:

1 x OverTechnology Macross super-dimension-energy cannon with beam polarizing converging system (bow)

18 (10 from ARMD) x OverTechnology guided converging beam cannons

4 x high speed 178 cm electro magnetic rail cannons

(ARMD) 4 x large forty-meter-long (approximately) automatic anti-celestrial-object anti-ship missile launchers

(ARMD) 12 x large automatic guided anti-ship missile launchers and many

many x large automatic anti-ship missile launchers

many x various missile emplacements

(ARMD) many x small anti-aircraft missile weaponry

(ARMD) many x small anti-aircraft beam weaponry

SDF-1 Macross

824 x VF-1 Super Valkyries (2 x ARMD = 524 Valkyries)

352 x QF-3000E Ghost (2 x ARMD = 132 Ghosts)

587 x Destroids

Total Aircraft/Spacecraft & Mecha = 1,763 vehicles

Battle 7

450 x variable fighters, 3 x VF-17 Nightmare, 3 x VF-19 Excalibur, 2 x VF-22S Sturmvogel II

250 x attack craft, 9 x bombers

Total Aircraft/Spacecraft & Mecha = 717 vehicles

The one advantage the NMC does enjoy over the old Macross Class is mass. Though the NMC is much larger than the Macross Class, it is only 7,770,000 metric tons (with an additional 2,500,000 tons for the Gunship). By comparison, the old Macross Class is 22,000,000 metric tons. So the NMC is less than half the mass, meaning it would accelerate much faster and enjoy superior mobility.

I think in the history of space wars in which humanity has taken part, the SDF-1 Macross is still the most heavily armed warship the UN Spacy has ever built, particularly the 2012 refit (DYRL version). I think the important thing to remember is the Macross Class was a dedicated anti-ship gunboat. By comparison, the New Macross Class is more of a command vessel or aircraft/spacecraft carrier. The NMC does have potent anti-ship weapons and can take on a larger force, but in fleet-to-fleet engagments, it's role is that of a carrier. The Macross Class role is that of a battleship with extensive carrier capabilites and it's weapons appear designed for continuous frontline engagement rather than the strategic operations like the NMC.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I didn't really watch the full M7 (couldn't stomach it) so will only comment on Macross Frontier vs SDF.

The main cannon on the SDF-1 seemed (on screen) to be a much more devastating weapon. The one in Frontier seemed to take out only 1 ship at a time while the SDF-1's seemed to be much more devastating and capable of taking out whole flotillas.

In any case, SDF-1 looks more cool!

Edited October 6, 2008 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[azrael]

NMCs probably has destroids as well. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they it doesn't have them. And I really don't see the point of comparing a carrier vs a gunship.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

NMCs probably has destroids as well. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they it doesn't have them. And I really don't see the point of comparing a carrier vs a gunship.

But the re-fitted SDF-1 was practically a carrier no? Even if it wasn't, slapping those 2 arms on it made it one.

[Gin]

We should also take into account the battle 13 which seemed to have much more firepower imo.

[hobbes221]

My take on this is that the SDF pre or post refit is more along the lines of a battleship that had aircraft carriers added and NMCs are straight up carriers so I would go with an SDF winning a 1 vs 1 over a NMC. Plus with the way that the carriers/ARMDs were mounted outside the main hull of the SDFs that would help in taking damage as that much the weapons and fuel/propellent for the VFs would be farther away from the main systems in ether mode. The NMCs have the bridge right atop at least part of the hanger and that to me would seem to be a weak point in the class. All in all I would like to see SDFs still serving as escorts or as long range scouts for fleets such as Frontier.

[Mr March]

The SDF-1 really enjoyed the best of both worlds able to operate as a carrier and a battleship. But it also appears to be terribly inefficient, particularly compared to modern warships. In Space War I, the Macross Class worked well because the Zentradi vessels had even more lead in the ass end of their spaceships than the SDF-1 (check out the mass for the Zentradi ships). However, compared to human built warships, the Macross Class would be ridiculously heavy and terribly slow for a ship of its size. The Macross Class is 1,210 meters long compared to the 1,510 meters of the New Macross Class, yet a typical Battle 7 style ship has less than half the mass. Given that the NMC class could carry almost 800 aircraft/spacecraft and a super beam gun for less than half the mass of the old Macross Class, its no surprise the UN Spacy/New UN Spacy enthusiastically embraced the NMC for going on 30 years now.

[Morpheus]

And I really don't see the point of comparing a carrier vs a gunship.

QFT, carriers depends on their fighter screen while gunship fits an artillery role. Even a heavily armed Macross type ship will bow before the might of squadrons of valk armed with reaction missiles/MDE.

[sketchley]

Those should be only Battle 7 and Battle 25/Frontier.

New Macross Class (for 7) and Island Cluster Class (for 25/Frontier) refer to the entire joined ship; both City Ship and Battle Warship.

Unless if you're making a comparison between the capabilities of the ships in their entirety. In that case, it's

1) Island Cluster Class

2) New Macross Class

3) Macross Class

, simply based on terms of the emmigrant population they carry, and the size of the their City Ships.

(...)

New Macross Class Battle 7

(...)

New Macross Class Battle Frontier

(...)

Edited October 7, 2008 by sketchley

[RedWolf]

QFT, carriers depends on their fighter screen while gunship fits an artillery role. Even a heavily armed Macross type ship will bow before the might of squadrons of valk armed with reaction missiles/MDE.

A Macross Class has more Valkyries than a New Macross Class it is combination of battleship and carrier. It can fire its own reaction missiles from many missile tubes and launchers , and scary anti-aircraft flak.

That is just conventional engagement without using the BFG.

[ntsan]

I wonder why no battleship build larger than Yamato IRL, consider the technology improvement and stuff..

I also wonder how can you fit 50,000 people in few hundred meters of space, do they micronize the human to even smaller one?

Edited October 7, 2008 by ntsan

[Morpheus]

I wonder why no battleship build larger than Yamato IRL, consider the technology improvement and stuff..

OOT:

Battleships era are gone and they role are replaced by Aircraft Carriers. In fact, the American have plans of making the Montana class which is more heavier than the Yamato, it was never finished.

In short LR missiles >>> big gunz on battleship.

[eugimon]

I wonder why no battleship build larger than Yamato IRL, consider the technology improvement and stuff..

I also wonder how can you fit 50,000 people in few hundred meters of space, do they micronize the human to even smaller one?

IRL, considering what a massive investment went into the Yamato and how easily she was sunk, it's no wonder her death foretold the end of the battleship era.

[Sumdumgai]

One thing in favor of the later New Macross Class vessels is the improvement in barrier technology. It's not arms, but it's something to think about, particularly with big fleet to fleet battles (and probably what saved Battle Galaxy from having a big hole from the Quarter's gunship firing to clear away the giant Ranka illusion).

[azrael]

One thing in favor of the later New Macross Class vessels is the improvement in barrier technology. It's not arms, but it's something to think about, particularly with big fleet to fleet battles (and probably what saved Battle Galaxy from having a big hole from the Quarter's gunship firing to clear away the giant Ranka illusion).

Improved barrier systems, improved weapons, improved defenses (NMCs are stealth carriers for starters), control systems, etc.

[Morpheus]

Improved barrier systems, improved weapons, improved defenses (NMCs are stealth carriers for starters), control systems, etc.

Too bad they didn't improve the bridge bunnies, Battle-7 win in terms of bridge bunnies

[JB0]

I also wonder how can you fit 50,000 people in few hundred meters of space, do they micronize the human to even smaller one?

If I recall, the entire city isn't "flat." Large parts of it are multi-tiered.

So we're working with volume, not area.Stack a few 500*200 meter shelves at 20-meter intervals, and suddenly you have 6 square kilometers instead of one(numbers pulled out of my rectum to illustrate the point).

Still crowded, but...

According to Wikipedia, Tokyo has a population density of 5796 people per square kilometer. So... 9 shelves and you're living with more elbow room than Tokyo. And you still have plenty of room in the ship for other stuff.

Also, the military barracks were outside the city proper(it was originally built inside an unused portion of a ship that was already fully crewed).

Now, all this goes totally out the window once you factor in transformation concerns, and I have serious doubts that a car would be of ANY use, but...

[Noyhauser]

A Macross Class has more Valkyries than a New Macross Class it is combination of battleship and carrier. It can fire its own reaction missiles from many missile tubes and launchers , and scary anti-aircraft flak.

That is just conventional engagement without using the BFG.

Ummm NMC had Reaction missiles, plenty of them too, likely more powerful than the original Macross' weapons. You see them several times in Macross 7, but most clearly in Episode 46 when they decide to use them vs Glavil.

[RedWolf]

Ummm NMC had Reaction missiles, plenty of them too, likely more powerful than the original Macross' weapons. You see them several times in Macross 7, but most clearly in Episode 46 when they decide to use them vs Glavil.

The point is a Macross Class has much more than a NMC.

[Noyhauser]

The point is a Macross Class has much more than a NMC.

First off lets introduce some evidence. About 1:40 minutes in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNhPTHk2SA...feature=related

There are three launcher types shown. The first one (A ten shot box launcher) is definitely from Battle 7; its shown a couple of episodes earlier launching a Conserax probe. The second one is a Stealth Frigate, and the third is unknown, but it may well also be from Battle 7. The second shot gives an idea of its size; they are significantly larger than a VF, which were launched from the Stealth frigates torpedo tubes inside reentry capsules during Operation Stargazer. Not that I trust this website for anything, but its got two images of the vf-reentry pod that I can't find anywhere else, which give a sense of the missiles scale.

http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/weapons.shtml#rocketsled

So this shows that the New Macross Class had at least ten large diameter reaction missile tubes, versus the four (we know of) on the ARMDs of the SDF-1.

Second there is no way to gauge the relative power of the 2040+ Reaction Weapons vs 2010 models. Even if the SDF-1 had more weapons, it does not mean they were "better." Given the advancing state of other technologies, there is much to suggest that reaction weapons also increased in power. Certainly they had introduced a very large missile type for this purpose. We do know that the Macross Fleet did attempt to use reaction weapons against the protodevilin AFTER the unsuccessful use of the Macross Cannon several weeks earlier. That at least indicates the weapons might be considered on-par with the main beam gun... though thats more of an assertion which can't be proven.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Noyhauser

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

If I recall, the entire city isn't "flat." Large parts of it are multi-tiered.

So we're working with volume, not area.Stack a few 500*200 meter shelves at 20-meter intervals, and suddenly you have 6 square kilometers instead of one(numbers pulled out of my rectum to illustrate the point).

Still crowded, but...

According to Wikipedia, Tokyo has a population density of 5796 people per square kilometer. So... 9 shelves and you're living with more elbow room than Tokyo. And you still have plenty of room in the ship for other stuff.

Also, the military barracks were outside the city proper(it was originally built inside an unused portion of a ship that was already fully crewed).

Even ignoring transformation, in the series you see lots of big open air areas and multi-storey buildings. They definitely did not pack em into 20m tall layers.

Look at the space around:

The concert hall

The hospital Hikaru was in

The damn areas Max and Miria fought in mecha mode

The park where Max and Miria fought outside the mecha

The military base with the battroid mode valks walking round

And all the other wide area shots....

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

OOT:

Battleships era are gone and they role are replaced by Aircraft Carriers. In fact, the American have plans of making the Montana class which is more heavier than the Yamato, it was never finished.

In short LR missiles >>> big gunz on battleship.

Montana would still weigh less compared to Yamato. With more main rifles and better fire-control, it would likely have kicked Yamato's keel over in a 1 vs 1 though.

People don't make battleships anymore because the most effective weapon is now the missile and the aircraft. So guided missile cruisers and aircraft carriers are the new cap ships. Ships are only platforms to carry the weapons and once the big naval rifle was made obsolete, the battleship went with it. All military fighting vehicles are really only weapon platforms.

[sucker4meltrans]

yes but battleships are sexier

[Mr March]

yes but battleships are sexier

"I’m bringing sexy back

My ship's big gun will be the final act

Defolding on your face just like some smack

Watch me transform and see your jaw go slack"

[macrossvf-1msx]

"I’m bringing sexy back

My ship's big gun will be the final act

Defolding on your face just like some smack

Watch me transform and see your jaw go slack"

damm that funny

[Gin]

Soon we'll see that the quarter will be the new thing. Have four or so of those instead of one big ship.

[ChronoReverse]

The Quarter is great but sometimes you just need a BFG capable of blowing away an entire fleet and that's what the NMCs are for.