Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It all points out to Galaxy doing something that Frontier isn't aware off.

Given that the Galaxy has a lot of corporations on it testing new technology, it's possible that the VF-27 has a lot of technology unknown to Frontier.

It could be that Brera is observing Alto to see how the VF-25 is in combat, compared to the 27. Both models are similar, perhaps both are based on the YF-24, but made by different, rival companies, trying to gain the advantage over the other.

Uh oh Macross Plus homage! I forsee Brera being Ranka's long lost brother, angry at Alto because he is now Ranka's protector, Alto mad at him for not protecting Ranka all those years, and a battle where Brera sacrifices himself ala Guld with an eye busting and VF-27 damaged beyond repair.

Come to think of it, the 27 has similar features to the 21, like the wing shape.

[d3v]

Come to think of it, the 27 has similar features to the 21, like the wing shape.

Actually, it feels more like the VF-14 Vampire and Varuta Elgerzorene, but still very General Galaxy-esque.

[badboy00z]

Aside from this, in the original preproduction sketches for the YF-19, YF-19's nosetip was folded down instead of pointing forward.

FV

Got any pictures of the preproduction sketches??

[grss1982]

BTW.....Graham's gonna love this.....

New exit ports for internally carried missles of the VF-25 that's not part of the Super Pack?

(click on image for bigger view)

As you could clearly see the missles are NOT launching from the Super Pack. So is it safe to assume that the baseline VF-25 (w/o any Fast Packs) has missles of its own?

Edited June 2, 2008 by grss1982

[VF5SS]

They're launching from the chest armor bits that are part of the super pack.

[grss1982]

They're launching from the chest armor bits that are part of the super pack.

Wait a minute.....I thought it was the Armored Pack that had the chest missles NOT the Super Pack?

[Mark Nguyen]

They're launching from the chest armor bits that are part of the super pack.

Yep, you see the red panels flip open right before they launch.

Mark

[Mr March]

Nope, the Super configurations also have dorsal fuselage/top torso missile launchers. You can see a pair of yellow launchers clearly in this picture:

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/miscellaneous/...-vf-25super.png

In battroid mode, the launchers sit on top of the torso, somewhat to the rear. On a human, they'd be resting on your trapezius, the muscle between your neck and shoulder.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Mr March

[d3v]

Wait a minute.....I thought it was the Armored Pack that had the chest missles NOT the Super Pack?

Actually, those are missile pods that freely hang over the shoulders in battroid mode, connected to the chest armor by some sort of extending boom.

If anyone can share a pic of the VF-25 battroid with super pack, I can show which parts those are.

EDIT: Mr. March beat me to the punch.

Edited June 2, 2008 by d3v

[Morpheus]

Actually, it feels more like the VF-14 Vampire and Varuta Elgerzorene, but still very General Galaxy-esque.

Its a combination of all the evil VF (SV-51 + FZ-109) and its freaking purple.

Now can someone point me to the VF-25 transformation sequence? I'm too lazy to leave my chair

[Master Dex]

Its a combination of all the evil VF (SV-51 + FZ-109) and its freaking purple.

Now can someone point me to the VF-25 transformation sequence? I'm too lazy to leave my chair

I'd suggest freeze framing parts of episodes where it transforms. Truthfully the best shot is from ep.1 when Ozma's armored VF-25 transforms from Gerwalk to Battroid. Back when I first saw the deculture edition I did this (me being the naturally curious engineer and had to figure it out) and got a pretty good idea of it right away, now I know exactly how it works (though there may be small details I'm missing). I'll know definitely when the DX toy and the models come out later on of course.

[wolfx]

I think the VF-27 is the natural evolution of the VF-25, or at least what the VF-25 should have been. They share the same silhoutte and transformation. The VF-27 has the "fast packs" built into its frame rather than the requirement to put on packs and it even has an internal fold booster and various exotic technologies going for it.

I have the feeling that the VF-25 is actually the "cheaper" alternative to the VF-27 or at least the stop-gap design before the VF-27 rather than one created by a competitor. Thoughts?

[d3v]

I think the VF-27 is the natural evolution of the VF-25, or at least what the VF-25 should have been. They share the same silhoutte and transformation. The VF-27 has the "fast packs" built into its frame rather than the requirement to put on packs and it even has an internal fold booster and various exotic technologies going for it.

I have the feeling that the VF-25 is actually the "cheaper" alternative to the VF-27 or at least the stop-gap design before the VF-27 rather than one created by a competitor. Thoughts?

I think it's more probable that they're both based on the VF-24 (which we already know the 25 is based on). The 24 itself was probably a failed competitor to the VF-171 (they must have thought it cheaper to go with an upgraded design than with a new one), then both L.A.I. and whoever is behind the 27 took the design of the VF-24 further into both the VF-25 and VF-27.

[Kronnang Dunn]

The sword was never used in the anime but it was always featured in toys and models of Blow Superior.

Nope... It was used by Yellow Belmont to kill an Inibit in one episode of Genesis Climber Mospeada... (And it was messy!!!)

I think it's more probable that they're both based on the VF-24 (which we already know the 25 is based on). The 24 itself was probably a failed competitor to the VF-171 (they must have thought it cheaper to go with an upgraded design than with a new one), then both L.A.I. and whoever is behind the 27 took the design of the VF-24 further into both the VF-25 and VF-27.

Indeed. I think the VF-27 and the VF-25 are parallel designs. Like the VF-22 and VF-19, one is apparently more advanced than the other, but each one has its own advantages. The VF-25 seems more versatile and better for multiple tasks with all those add-ons... The VF-27 is more "hit and run"...

Edited June 2, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

Indeed. I think the VF-27 and the VF-25 are parallel designs. Like the VF-22 and VF-19, one is apparently more advanced than the other, but each one has its own advantages. The VF-25 seems more versatile and better for multiple tasks with all those add-ons... The VF-27 is more "hit and run"...

The whole VF-25 being based on the VF-24 deal reminds me of in real life the F/A-18 was derived from the rejected YF-17.

[wolfx]

Nope... It was used by Yellow Belmont to kill an Inibit in one episode of Genesis Climber Mospeada... (And it was messy!!!)

Hmmm really? Screenies?

[d3v]

Just noticed something, both the VF-27 and VF-25 w/ Super Pack don't use their additional engines/thrusters during normal cruisng flight but do so when in combat. This surprised me because I recalled the Super Packs thrusters being used almost all of the time in previous Macross shows. In the 25's case, there's also a fifth dorsal thruster that seems to be rarely used as well.

Also, is it just me, or does Island 1/Frontier seem larger than City 7? City 7 had nemerous buildings that went beyond through the dome and were actually in space, while we see none of the sort in Frontier.

Edited June 2, 2008 by d3v

[Mr March]

The differences between the VF-25 Messiah and the VF-27 seem to be operational, not necessarily performance. I've no doubt there will be differences in the numbers for weight and thrust if we ever see official statistics, but I doubt the VF-27 is necessarily superior; I believe it's just more specialized.

For example, with four engines, the big beam gun and internal fold system, the VF-27 appears to be the Macross equivalent of a Strike Fighter. It is designed to deliver heavy ordnance against hardened targets and even warships, but it remains a capable variable fighter. The VF-25 Messiah is a straight Fighter craft, but ANY VF-25 can be equipped for numerous operational roles using specialized equipment like Super Parts, Full Armor or ELINT packages which the VF-27 cannot use (unless another set of specialized equipment was built to suit its frame).

The VF-27, like the VF-25, might also represent the new boundary of what's possible in variable fighter technology. The VF-25 Messiah introduced a "transformable full armor system" which is a first. The VF-27 seems to feature an internal fold system, a fighter-scale heavy converging energy beam cannon and a fully holographic or cyberspace cockpit interface, also firsts. I see the two Valkyries as roughly on the same developmental curve, but the VF-27 is more specialized and arguably more experimental.

[Mr March]

Also, is it just me, or does Island 1/Frontier seem larger than City 7? City 7 had nemerous buildings that went beyond through the dome and were actually in space, while we see none of the sort in Frontier.

Much larger. Island 1 on the Macros Frontier is 15km long. City 7 on the Macross 7 was 6km long.

[Heron]

The differences between the VF-25 Messiah and the VF-27 seem to be operational, not necessarily performance. I've no doubt there will be differences in the numbers for weight and thrust if we ever see official statistics, but I doubt the VF-27 is necessarily superior; I believe it's just more specialized.

For example, with four engines, the big beam gun and internal fold system, the VF-27 appears to be the Macross equivalent of a Strike Fighter. It is designed to deliver heavy ordnance against hardened targets and even warships, but it remains a capable variable fighter. The VF-25 Messiah is a straight Fighter craft, but ANY VF-25 can be equipped for numerous operational roles using specialized equipment like Super Parts, Full Armor or ELINT packages which the VF-27 cannot use (unless another set of specialized equipment was built to suit its frame).

The VF-27, like the VF-25, might also represent the new boundary of what's possible in variable fighter technology. The VF-25 Messiah introduced a "transformable full armor system" which is a first. The VF-27 seems to feature an internal fold system, a fighter-scale heavy converging energy beam cannon and a fully holographic or cyberspace cockpit interface, also firsts. I see the two Valkyries as roughly on the same developmental curve, but the VF-27 is more specialized and arguably more experimental.

So much like the SV-51 versus the VF-0?

[Mark Nguyen]

So much like the SV-51 versus the VF-0?

Maybe more like the VF-17 vs. the VF-11. The 25 (and I'm STILL hesitant to call it "Messiah" as an official name) is arguably to be used as the next-generation mainline fighter. The 27 may be analogous to a special forces or special missions fighter that does all the stuff BESIDES main combat - surgical strikes, black ops, etc. It's tough to say due to the very little footage we've seen, but so far front line fighting seems to be far from what the 27 is designed to do.

Mark

[Mr March]

So much like the SV-51 versus the VF-0?

I don't think there's been a pre-existing scenario that was quite the same as the VF-25/VF-27 comparison. The VF-0 Phoenix and the SV-51, while different in design, seem built to fulfill the same Fighter role and can be equipped with similar optional hardware. The YF-19 and the YF-21 were both built for the same role, but were both unconventional and featured all kinds of then-new fringe technologies. Those two valkyries were also prototype vehicles, not production fighters. The VF-11 Thunderbolt and the VF-17 Nightmare is a closer comparison, but again the VF-17 is definitely a later generation craft made after the VF-11 Thunderbolt had already been in active service for many years.

The VF-25 Messiah and VF-27 are both brand new valkyries featuring a common design but in my opinion they appear built for different roles.

[Impreszive]

I don't think there's been a pre-existing scenario that was quite the same as the VF-25/VF-27 comparison. The VF-0 Phoenix and the SV-51, while different in design, seem built to fulfill the same Fighter role and can be equipped with similar optional hardware. The YF-19 and the YF-21 were both built for the same role, but were both unconventional and featured all kinds of then-new fringe technologies. Those two valkyries were also prototype vehicles, not production fighters. The VF-11 Thunderbolt and the VF-17 Nightmare is a closer comparison, but again the VF-17 is definitely a later generation craft made after the VF-11 Thunderbolt had already been in active service for many years.

The VF-25 Messiah and VF-27 are both brand new valkyries featuring a common design but in my opinion they appear built for different roles.

Speaking of SV-51s,

Take a good look at some of the close ups of the plane in ep 9. It shares a lineage with that plane, especially in the engine and forward nose sections. You kind of have to stop the video during its close ups. I would not be surprised at all if we haven't heard the last of the Anti-UN.

[Zinjo]

I think it's more probable that they're both based on the VF-24 (which we already know the 25 is based on). The 24 itself was probably a failed competitor to the VF-171 (they must have thought it cheaper to go with an upgraded design than with a new one), then both L.A.I. and whoever is behind the 27 took the design of the VF-24 further into both the VF-25 and VF-27.

I disagree. The YF-24 would have been the prototype of the VF-25 and I expect there is still an unmentioned YF-26 prototype out there as well. It appears SK has taken to skipping a number in the fighter designations to allow for the YF series prototypes to exist.

The fighters share a common transformation sequence and that is where the similarities end.

For all we know the YF-23 was the first fighter to incorporate such a sequence and NUNS then required all new manufacturers to incorporate the new sequence into their proposed fighter designs.

[Duke Togo]

I disagree. The YF-24 would have been the prototype of the VF-25 and I expect there is still an unmentioned YF-26 prototype out there as well. It appears SK has taken to skipping a number in the fighter designations to allow for the YF series prototypes to exist.

I think he did it because "25" is the numeric theme for Frontier.

[Mr March]

Speaking of SV-51s,

Take a good look at some of the close ups of the plane in ep 9. It shares a lineage with that plane, especially in the engine and forward nose sections. You kind of have to stop the video during its close ups. I would not be surprised at all if we haven't heard the last of the Anti-UN.

I agree. In fact, lately it appears Shoji Kawamori has been inspired by unconventional and some retro design. Chronologically, his 1990's era valkyries (VF-3000, VF-11, VF-17, YF-19, YF-21) were influenced heavily by modern stealth considerations like the F-22 Raptor, YF-23 Blackwidow II, F-117 Nighthawk and so forth.

Kawamori's later 2000's era valkyries (VF-0, SV-51, VF-171, VF-25, VF-27) have all been a melange of new and retro, taking design elements from modern stealth design (especially the wings) and 1970's and 1980's era eastern European fighter craft. I can see elements of the MIG-29, Su-27 and Su-33 right up to new variants like the Su-37. The VF-27 in particular seems to remind me a lot of the Flanker F.

And then of course there are the self-referential elements, like parts of the SV-51 in the VF-27 like the rear engines/lower legs and the nozzles/feet. The VF-25 is also supposed to be reminiscent of the VF-1 fighter, though I have to admit I've never seen much of the old VF-1 in the new Messiah design.

[Zinjo]

I think he did it because "25" is the numeric theme for Frontier.

Well there is that...

[d3v]

I think he did it because "25" is the numeric theme for Frontier.

Refer to my previous YF-17 to F/A-18 IRL analogy. It seems that the YF-24 was a prototype that never went past that stage, L.A.I. simply took the design then refined it to create the VF-25.

As for the numbering, ever since Plus, Kawamori has only used odd numbers for fighter craft, with the exception of the VF-22 which was still based on the YF-21. I suspect a subtle homage to Mikoyan which uses odd number for all their fighter craft (MiG-5, MiG-21, Mig-25, MiG-29).

[mikeszekely]

Refer to my previous YF-17 to F/A-18 IRL analogy. It seems that the YF-24 was a prototype that never went past that stage, L.A.I. simply took the design then refined it to create the VF-25.

As for the numbering, ever since Plus, Kawamori has only used odd numbers for fighter craft, with the exception of the VF-22 which was still based on the YF-21. I suspect a subtle homage to Mikoyan which uses odd number for all their fighter craft (MiG-5, MiG-21, Mig-25, MiG-29).

VF-14? VF-5000? I know they didn't get a lot of screen time, but they're both post-Plus, even-numbered VFs.

[d3v]

VF-14? VF-5000? I know they didn't get a lot of screen time, but they're both post-Plus, even-numbered VFs.

VF-14 was if I recall correctly, a heavy fighter bomber. The 5000 was inspired by the Mirage 2000 hence the similar name.

[jenius]

Nope... It was used by Yellow Belmont to kill an Inibit in one episode of Genesis Climber Mospeada... (And it was messy!!!)

This definitely requires a screen capture or an episode or something. I'm pretty sure the blades were never extended in the anime... Yellow stuck to his chest missiles.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

though I have to admit I've never seen much of the old VF-1 in the new Messiah design.

Same format, swing wings, ventral fins, 2 vertical stabilizers, no horizontal stabilizers, also similar color scheme(Focker 1S/DYRL Hikaru 1A), though, this may actually be an homage to the takatoku 1/55 VF-1S Focker type, as in DYRL and the TV animation, his valkyrie was always white, only on the Imai boxes and the Takatoku 1/55 did we ever see Focker's valkyrie in grey. It also looks more like a VF-1 than the VF-11 does, and the 11 was also influenced by the VF-1. The 25 also has a more pointed nose, which is closer to the VF-1 than the VF-0.

[Kronnang Dunn]

This definitely requires a screen capture or an episode or something.

Working on it...

Same format, swing wings, ventral fins, 2 vertical stabilizers, no horizontal stabilizers, also similar color scheme(Focker 1S/DYRL Hikaru 1A), though, this may actually be an homage to the takatoku 1/55 VF-1S Focker type, as in DYRL and the TV animation, his valkyrie was always white, only on the Imai boxes and the Takatoku 1/55 did we ever see Focker's valkyrie in grey. It also looks more like a VF-1 than the VF-11 does, and the 11 was also influenced by the VF-1. The 25 also has a more pointed nose, which is closer to the VF-1 than the VF-0.

AFAIK Shoji Kawamori himself said that the VF-25 looks like a modern, slimmer rendition of the VF-1, but transforms like the VF-19...

Edited June 3, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[wolfx]

AFAIK Shoji Kawamori himself said that the VF-25 looks like a modern, slimmer rendition of the VF-1, but transforms like the VF-19...

Source?

Because as some members pointed it out, its more remeniscent of a SV-51 in transformation and shape. Doesn't need kawamori to tell us that.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Source?

Because as some members pointed it out, its more remeniscent of a SV-51 in transformation and shape. Doesn't need kawamori to tell us that.

As said in the Macross Compendium VF-25 "Messiah" Article...

"According to Kawamori, the VF-25 is a deliberate attempt to move away from the silhouettes of current real-world fighters, which are dominated by an emphasis on (passive) stealth. He also notes that since this is the first major Valkyrie that transforms in all modes with its Armored parts still attached, he gave the unarmored fighter a slim profile. He thinks the VF-25 resembles a slimmer VF-1 Valkyrie in Fighter mode, but transforms like a VF-19 Excalibur."

I believe u ppl should visit that site waaay more often, hehe...

Edited June 3, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn