Future Ground Wars

[Anubis]

Reading all the speculations and what-ifs threads lately, a thought crossed my mind. How would UN Spacy after Space War 1 conduct a ground war? I'm more curious about the Zentradi being included among us at that point. In addition to VF's making their air-to-ground runs of course, we have destroids and ground troops/vehicles to use exclusively on the ground, and VF's also making their runs in battroid/gerwalk inside a city. Now, would we include full size Zentradi among the ground force, and Regult battle pods? It worked for the Zentradi for how long, so why not use some, especially with the onhand numbers of pods left over after the war. Would full size Zentradi not be practical mixing in with regular terran forces, or would the Regult idea be cannon fodderish? I know the vast majority of Zentradi were miclonized based on everything we've seen. Even the M5 fleet was all Zentradi. But in certain situations, many have no problem reversing the process to do what they need to do, be it help with construction, or whatever the reason. I'd like to see some opinions on how a ground fight might work. There is no way it would be all VF's, right?

[dna]

Well, I believe that in 2040 UN Spacy, there are no Destroids (save the old relics). So it would have to be fought with Valkyries.

Actually, I'd just fight it with orbital bombardment. Screw taking intact targets.

[Anubis]

True, orbital bombardment is an option, but I was thinking in terms of keeping the cities reasonably intact, and not glassing the planet. There are surely some suport vehicles in addition to the VF's, and yes, destroids are pretty much gone in the 2040's. Who knows, maybe campaigns could be consolidated into VF's only, as long as they are able to resupply easily when needed.

[briscojr84]

I'm sure there are still some reserve units of Destroids in the Army and Marine inventories, look at some of the stuff still in the US's inventory still.

And if they ever needed the ground specific units they would probably pull the deactivated units out of storage and do crash training.

[JB0]

Well, I believe that in 2040 UN Spacy, there are no Destroids (save the old relics). So it would have to be fought with Valkyries.

Actually, I'd just fight it with orbital bombardment. Screw taking intact targets.

Has that ever been stated?

Beause if we go solely by animation, all destroids were antique relics in the original TV series.

What we DO know is they rolled a variable Monster out at some point, and it was used in VF-X 2, which is relatively late in the timeline.

They may have made variable versions of most of the destroids, so they could have the mission-specific firepower along with the rapid deployability of the variable fighter. Sure beats the heck out of GBP armor to simulate a Spartan/Phalanx, and screw the rest.

[William Gunn]

Although the main fighting force should be the transformable valkyries, but Destroids will still be used. Reason? Cost and firepower. Assuming the complexity and transformation of the valkyrie, I assume it costs more to build a valkyrie than a common Destroid. The Monster will most likely costs more than a standard Destroid but there's a reason for it: raw firepower. But it sacrifices mobility and speed. Variable Monster from VFX-2? Let's just say the shuttle mode is purely for transportation purposes, you wouldn't want to fly a variable Monster and try to dogfight even a VF-1.

I would think that in terms of firepower, the Destroids (minus the Monster class) in general exceeds that of the standard valkyrie, but not mentioning the FAST pacts and what armour enhancements for the valkyrie. For general ground combat or support roles, Destroids will be deployed. True, valkyries can do the job as well, but it would probably be more for general aerial and space combat.

[Coota0]

Well, I believe that in 2040 UN Spacy, there are no Destroids (save the old relics).  So it would have to be fought with Valkyries.

Actually, I'd just fight it with orbital bombardment.  Screw taking intact targets.

Has that ever been stated?

Beause if we go solely by animation, all destroids were antique relics in the original TV series.

What we DO know is they rolled a variable Monster out at some point, and it was used in VF-X 2, which is relatively late in the timeline.

They may have made variable versions of most of the destroids, so they could have the mission-specific firepower along with the rapid deployability of the variable fighter. Sure beats the heck out of GBP armor to simulate a Spartan/Phalanx, and screw the rest.

What gives you the impression that the destroids were relics in th original series?

I always thoght they were probably cutting edge given the fact that the technology to build Destroids and Valks had only been around for about 10 years.

[ShadowerV2]

They would be fought using Soldiers in PowerSuits! (Sorry shameless showing off) Anyway that's how I envision special forces to be.

[Radd]

I've argued this many times in the past, and I'll argue it again Just because we don't see something in the animation, doesn't mean it isn't there. How do we know there are no new destroids? There is absolutely nothing that tells us there isn't, we just don't see them. In Macross 7 the Patroids make more sense than full size Destroids in the middle of a fully populated city.

The Konig Monster is a good example of a new, fast deployment Destroid. It's variable form allows it to get to the battlefield quickly, without endangering another vehicle and it's crew. It also allows for quick retrieval.

Whether or not other Destroids get the variable treatment is an interesting question. Also, I'm not saying there are definitely new Destroids, I'm just saying that in the 1 tv series that takes place mostly on a heavily populated colony ship, 1 4 part OVA that followed fighter developement, and 2 videogames about a fighter squadron, we see no new destroids, but that doesn't mean they're not there. There's just been no appropriate place to showcase them. Besides, the Valkyries are what's popular, Kawamori and company will be concentrating on showing those off above all else.

As for Zentradi, there is the variable Glaug for those that aren't big on the traditional Valkyries. Probably giant-sized ground troops as well, for specific missions. Probably lots of miclonized ground infantry as well.

All with air/ground support from the Valkyrie squadrons.

Speculation, of course, but that's all we can hope for until Kawamori shows us something new.

[Hiriyu]

Now, would we include full size Zentradi among the ground force, and Regult battle pods? It worked for the Zentradi for how long, so why not use some, especially with the onhand numbers of pods left over after the war. Would full size Zentradi not be practical mixing in with regular terran forces, or would the Regult idea be cannon fodderish? I know the vast majority of Zentradi were miclonized based on everything we've seen.

Depending on your timeline, most likely not. According to the Compendium:

[2030] November

Armed revolt by the giant Zentradi living on Earth. The Second Defensive Battle of Macross City. Hereafter, giant Zentradi are prohibited from living on Earth.

...And I agree with Radd:

I've argued this many times in the past, and I'll argue it again Just because we don't see something in the animation, doesn't mean it isn't there. How do we know there are no new destroids? There is absolutely nothing that tells us there isn't, we just don't see them.

Something like Schrodinger's Cat, eh?

[zeta]

Ok I think I should set up a scenario...

A mutinous faction has taken over a outpost on the world Bob. A UN Spacy base there is about 2 miles off from the struggling outpost so nuking is out of the question.

The Base that rebelled has maybe

5 squadron of VF-11

1 squadron VF-17

14 squadron of VF-11 era destroids

Proper support craft and transports for a base of this size

100 or so tanks, attack choppers, and the such...

150-300 grunts

Some reaction weapons

The mission is to put down this uprising, your about on par with the M7 fleet.

You arrive at Bob and give a token warning to end this rebellion. When they refuse you launch a force roughly twice the size of theirs. The VF's engage there counterparts and provide cover to the ground force which moves in and captures the base. A special forces squad takes out the reaction weapons.

Logically you dont see M7 destroids because they fought most battles in space. Also the Battle 7 had better dedicated short range defense systems than the SDF-1 and didnt need the extra "umph" of destroids as much so held them in reserve. The SDF-1 barely survived its encounters with hostiles so it needed them more than 7 which had better luck with the enemy in straight on engagements...

[CoryHolmes]

All wars in Macross after Space War I are fought with transforming mecha.

Why? Because all mecha in Macross must transform, that's why!

Need a recon unit? Make it transform first. Need a Destroid? Make it transform first. Need a construction unit? Make it transform first.

So all wars will be fought with transformable mecha, and nothing else.

[Uxi]

No reason there couldnt be Destroids in M7 area. They might be more limited in deployment but their roll in case of warfare is just so much more sensible for a full scale war. So yes, Earth might be on exploration and defense trend. But there COULD come a time when they'd need to go on the offensive and have to seize territory.

Think of it as a battroid without the transformation mechanism. Not only would it save cost and complexity but would allow an equivalently sized battroid to mount more armor and/or weaponry and/or ammunition and not bother with transformation articulation or redundancy of a jettison system (think permanent GBP/FAST-pack).

Rather than invest in new designs, I woudlnt mind if they just used Macross II's updated versions of the old ones we know and love. Monster II, Phalanx II etc. Indeed, I like the MII versions BETTER than the original series'.

But there WOULD also be integration of the remaining full sized Zentran somewhere, even if it's not on Earth. Like in MII, I would imagine the regults and glaugs have been largely retired. Their use and doctrine seemed to be that of the TIE Fighter. Cheap and expendable. It wouldn't go with the encultured Zentraedi... but the Nos-Ger and Q-Rau would be around with updates (I prefer the originals to the MII updates).

[Lightning]

future ground wars....how to win them.....i know! use the good ole tatical nuke!!

[Isamu Atreides 86]

why not just use Valks as heavy infantry troops. they would seem to be versatile enough, and mostly well armed to get past most opposition. in cases of heavy resistance, either some strategic bombing or some orbital bombardment.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Gentlemen, the wars of the future will be fought by very tiny robots... in space... or possibly on a tall mountain somewhere. But our duty will be to build and maintain those robots...

[Uxi]

why not just use Valks as heavy infantry troops. they would seem to be versatile enough, and mostly well armed to get past most opposition. in cases of heavy resistance, either some strategic bombing or some orbital bombardment.

Because if me and you have the same amount of money, it will cost you more to have an all transformable force (in both training & design, AS WELL as the procurement of the valkyries themselves - which will cost more,too) than me if I use Destroids as the "infantry" and valkyries a space fighter force. I will be able to have more destroids than u will valkyries and I will be able to train my pilots quicker.

*I* would probably go one step even further and have transformable valkyries limited to my equivalent of the Marines. The Army would have destroids for infantry. The Spacy would have non-transformable fighters, both manned and unmanned. All in increasing order of quantity: (transforming) valkyries, destroids, manned fighters and unmanned fighters.

All nanotech business goes into the circular file.

Edited October 27, 2003 by Uxi

[dna]

It seems to me that Destroids have always been shown as getting the short end of the stick - more easily blown away because of their ponderous speed. Of course that could just be chalked up to the fact that none of the heros have been destoid pilots but...

The question would be their combat effectiveness: Would it matter if you had twice as many destroids as I had Valkyries if my kill ratio was 10 to 1? Of course you'll just say "prove it" but that is the message I got from watching Macross.

Varuta forces were constantly invading the interior space of City 7. It would have made sense to have civil defense destroids if there were any to be had. In a fleet as big as 7, you would have seen some destroids if there were any.

What kind of mecha was guarding Edwards AFB on Eden? Not heavy destroids, but battroid mode VF-11's.

I guess the question you should be asking is are there any destroids that just somehow missed screen time? I just don't think so. If there were any to be had, Kawamori would have thrown them in even as a glimpse somewhere.

Of course, that doesn't mean that he won't suddenly come up with some, a la VF-X2 (which, with the exception of the transformable Montster, had nothing but SDF era destroids for my Valk to walk all over ), but probably won't.

Edited October 27, 2003 by dna

[UN Spacy]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but Windjammer posted several links to combat (ground/close quarters) tactics for Valkyries a couple of months ago.

If anyone has the link to those pages that'd be great.

[Graham]

I tend to agree that just because we don't see Destroids in M+ and M7, doesn't automatically mean there are no Destroids being used by the 2040s'.

However, the evidence does seem to point that way We all know that the Destroids relative lack of mobility makes them easy targets against faster airborne mecha. So perhaps the heavier attack type VFs like the VB-6 and VA-3 have taken the place of Destroids.

Graham

[Lightning]

i still thought my idea was better....just nuke the place if it's on the enemy's turf...

[Graham]

I was just thinking that perhaps the reason we don't see any new Destoids in Macross 7, is because it is a colony fleet which spends most of it's time in space and Destroids are not much use in space based combat, except as static defensive gun turrents

On the other hand, an offensive fleet whose mission was planetary invasion/rebellion suppression, might well feature Destroids as part of the ground invasion force.

I think of all the branches of the UN Military, probably the most likely to still have Destroids by the 2040s' would be the UN Marines. This could explain why no Destoids were seen at New Edwards on the planet Eden in Macross Plus, as New Eden was probably purely a UN Spacy and/or UN Air Force base.

Whether or not any new Destroids are made post-Space War 1 is a good question for Kawamori, next time he attends an Anime Expo.

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes

Graham

[NoSuchFile]

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes

Graham

I would have wanted to be a Monster pilot or gunner, I don't remember any of them get destroyed

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

[Graham]

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes 

Graham

I would have wanted to be a Monster pilot or gunner, I don't remember any of them get destroyed

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

I've just been rewatching my AnimEigo box set and although I don't remember which episode it is in, I'm sure there is an episode somewhere in the first half of the series, where you do see a Monster being destroyed.

Can anybody help out which ep it is?

Graham

[Graham]

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

The VB-6 was used by the VFX Ravens special forces squadron in 2050. I'm not sure what date it first entered service.

Graham

[Uxi]

I dunno if the destroids have worse life expectancy than the good ol Cannon Fodder VF-1A... certainly not enough to offset the complexity (and thus cost) of the valkyrie and its trained pilot...

[Anubis]

Like the older VF-1s and other fighters that got filtered down to colony worlds, I'm sure some of the old destroids filtered there as well. Their general lack of good mobility is what hampered them but as far as urban combat/defense goes, I'm sure would remain fairly effective. I would consider the mech the police in M7 had a smaller scale destroid. In one of the Macross 7 + segments, we see one of those police destroids take out a Fz-109, so they had to be of some use, for SWAT or somebody. IMO, any future destoids after space war 1 were probably limited to city combat or defense, and I would think given to the National Guard's equivalent on a colony. Any situation more complicated or larger scale would likely be VF based anyway.

I would like to think there were a few special op units within UN Spacy of N-ger's or Q-rau's, or aggressor trainer units of full size zentradi w/ mecha for mock engagements.

Side question: as far as actual soldiers go, is there anything anywhere about weaponry or equipment for them? All that technical develpment could not have skipped over the regular soldier.

[NoSuchFile]

Wow that makes some huge gap where the UNS had nothing for ground combats, only VF's, poor little foot soldiers, makes me wonder what those guys did to get an assignement like that

[Mr March]

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes 

Graham

I would have wanted to be a Monster pilot or gunner, I don't remember any of them get destroyed

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

I've just been rewatching my AnimEigo box set and although I don't remember which episode it is in, I'm sure there is an episode somewhere in the first half of the series, where you do see a Monster being destroyed.

Can anybody help out which ep it is?

Graham

Episode 8 "Longest Birthday".

Kamjin's squadron conducts an assault upon the SDF-1. All the onboard destroids are deployed to defend the ship. The destroids fire out at the Regults, but are very ineffective. In the retalitory strike, you can clearly see the top half of a Monster getting hit by Regult weapons fire. While we don't know for sure the Monster was destroyed (it looks like it's right hand side arm was blown of and the ensuing explosion destroyed or damaged the four top mounted cannons), it was certainly heavily damaged and was definitely disabled at best.

[NoSuchFile]

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes 

Graham

I would have wanted to be a Monster pilot or gunner, I don't remember any of them get destroyed

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

I've just been rewatching my AnimEigo box set and although I don't remember which episode it is in, I'm sure there is an episode somewhere in the first half of the series, where you do see a Monster being destroyed.

Can anybody help out which ep it is?

Graham

Episode 8 "Longest Birthday".

Kamjin's squadron conducts an assault upon the SDF-1. All the onboard destroids are deployed to defend the ship. The destroids fire out at the Regults, but are very ineffective. In the retalitory strike, you can clearly see the top half of a Monster getting hit by Regult weapons fire. While we don't know for sure the Monster was destroyed (it looks like it's right hand side arm was blown of and the ensuing explosion destroyed or damaged the four top mounted cannons), it was certainly heavily damaged and was definitely disabled at best.

Ure right, just watched it, you can see lather on in that episode Kamjin next to it, it seems like it survived, althought it was badly damaged for sure, well it still gives it's crew a chance to survive, unlike other destroids

[Nied]

Here's how I could see a modern (say 2050 era) assault from orbit on a heavily defended planet.

Capital ships move into the area and start making forays into the orbital plane. I doubt they could get to close to the planet at first since anything from orbital defense platforms (like the ones in M+) to extremely heavy ground based installations would make that impossible. Stealth VFs (VF-17s or VF-22s) would be sent in for first strikes against high value tragets like command and controll centers, later small forces of regular VFs would be sent in along with smaller capital ships (something along the lines of a Stargazer) to punch a hole in the orbital defenses. After that larger forces could be moved in, airstrikes against the surface (or against surface targets other than the anti capital ship stuff) could begin. Only after orbital superiority is acheived could ground operations begin.

VFs would of course be deployed first, possibly while escorting transports carrying GBP armour to be attached once they hit the ground. VB-6s would come in very handy since they would allow these early landings to have some heavy fire support without first establishing a beachead. Once one is established though, larger landing ships could be moved in to discorge the heavier destorids to start the ground campaign. VFs would then move into more of a supporting role, flying CAS and escort for destroid divisions, until the planet has been pacified.

edited to correct my atrocious gramar

Edited October 28, 2003 by Nied

[Graham]

Nied, very well written. That's pretty much how I see it as well.

Graham

[Anubis]

Sounds pretty good.

[dna]

Actually, I'm kinda surprised that we haven't seen some kind of micronian P.A. by 2050. That would be far cheaper and easier to train than even destroids. Just give 'em all some kind of LAW type launcher and small groups should be able to take down renegade Zentran P.A.'s. At least in urban environments, and it would be great for stealth in the field. Maybe there's some kind of heavy combat Patroid some where...

Nied, that is nicely written. I hope that destroids do make some kind of a comeback in later installments of Macross (either on TV or in video game land).

I also think powering up the a Macross class cannon or two (if your fleet was lucky enough to have a capitol ship like that) would help with orbital supperiority. It would at least clear a corridor for going down the well. Of course, people like Max could just fold in right on top of a base and start blasting away too...

[dna]

i still thought my idea was better....just nuke the place if it's on the enemy's turf...

It's the only way to be sure...