Original mecha

[grebo guru]

In case anyone cares, here's a link to some original mecha drawn by yours truly:

http://www.nebulaworks.com/port_mecha.html

Grebo!

[Roy Focker]

You're mechanical art is stronger than your character art (as least from the samples shown). Very Old schoolish not that there is any thing wrong with that.

[jenius]

Good stuff, you certainly draw better than i do. From a mech preference standpoint, I've always been a bigger fan of having the pilot concealed within the armor.

[orguss01]

I'm liken the panzerkraken..i like mech that look like they could be made in this decade.

[Mr March]

Fine work! I can see a lot of influences in the mecha. Cool stuff!

[emajnthis]

You're mechanical art is stronger than your character art (as least from the samples shown). Very Old schoolish not that there is any thing wrong with that.

The faces are a bit undeveloped but he has a very strong grasp on proportion and anatomy which is the greater battle.

[UN_MARINE]

Hey.... nice stuff grebo

I salute your villainy(technique)

funny how the mech guys don't do human figures & faces too well (myself included)

but i can say you've got a better handle on people art

[F-ZeroOne]

Wait a minute. You did art for some of the MekTon supplements?

Your art actually made the Turbo look... well 'ard, as we say in the UK.

Good work!

[grebo guru]

Yeah, I did illustrations for some Mekton supplements and some Cyberpunk supplements. And I'm glad you like the Armored Turbo -- the whole point of the drawing was, indeed, to try and make a lame mech cool.

Thanks for the compliments and commentary, everybody!

It's true, I'm better at mecha than people, and among people I'm better at men than women. I've only drawn one pony in my life and it looked pretty awful if you ask me.

Wait a minute. You did art for some of the MekTon supplements?

Your art actually made the Turbo look... well 'ard, as we say in the UK.

Good work!

[Mr March]

It's true, I'm better at mecha than people, and among people I'm better at men than women. I've only drawn one pony in my life and it looked pretty awful if you ask me.

Hehehe, I'm the reverse. Best picture I've drawn was of a horse

[Cruel Angel's Thesis]

I've always wondered what drawings you did for Cyberpunk. Overall your work is very good, even the character designs. Very interested in seeing more of what you've done.

Cruel Angel's Thesis

[CdnShockwave]

Looks pretty good to me.

[Knight26]

Nice done, the character and mecha design are all solid except for one. Your variable helicopter, it's too transformerish. I see no power source for the rotors or the mecha, you have arms come out of where the engines would be on a modern attack helo. It all looks good other then that.

[grebo guru]

Nice done, the character and mecha design are all solid

Thanks very much!

for one. Your variable helicopter

I'm actually surprised that of all my mecha designs, you singled out the Switch Blade. I actually think it's one of the best transformables I've ever designed and, if I do say so myself, I think it's a better helicopter/robot transformation format than virtually any other variable chopper I've ever seen. (Such as the Auroran, Gazette, Murphy, Springer, Bulkhead, Obsidian, etc etc etc.) This is NOT to say that I'm a great artist or mecha designer or anything, just that I think I stumbled upon a really good transformation with this design. And I certainly wouldn't assert that it's the best drawn variable chopper I've ever seen -- hardly! It's just that I think the transformation process and the shape of both forms is really good. I'm quite proud of the Switch Blade.

it's too transformerish.

It does have a lot of square, blocky elements, yes... I've been thinking of refinining this design for a long time now.

I see no power source for the rotors or the mecha, you have arms come out of where the engines would be on a modern attack helo. It all looks good other then that.

Heh! How funny is it that this is being said on a Macross board... A lot of Kawamori-sensei's VFs would seem to have similar problems. But anyway! Let me review the design and see if I can address your comments:

Okay, I see what you mean about the power source for the rotors. However, I can already see how to get around it -- the base of the rotor assembly would have a circular gear, and at 90 degrees to that would be two gears whose teeth intersect those of the rotor's base gear. These two perpendicular gears would be flush against the inside walls of the "backpack" (the module to which the rotors are connected and into which the telescoping tail collapses), leaving room for the collapsed tail to slide in. The two gears would be driven by a chain system or what-have you which leads into the torso core (beneath the cockpit/head).

As for the arms/engines issue, I actually imagined the lower legs as being the engines on this design. The arms just fold up into that shape to get them outta the way, be more aerodynamic, and evoke the shape of modern helicopters. I s'pose the vents all over the place could all feed rushing air through a flexible system of ducts into the leg engines, or what-have-you. I'm no mechanic, and I really don't know all that much about how aircraft actually, oh, work.

Oh, and Cruel Angel's Thesis wondered what drawings I did for Cyberpunk. Let's see here... some Cyberware for Chromebooks 2 and 3, the Full Borgs for Chromebook 2, some weapons for Chromebook 2, a couple guns for Blackhand's Streetweapons, one drawing in the Refbook (Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads), uhhhh... some of the equipment for Chromebook 2 (and 3? I don't remember)... hmmm. Yeah, I should actually check and see too!

Thanks for the compliments and commentary, guys! Keep it coming!

[Knight26]

Transformer designs make great use of taking exists bits and turning them into something else. I can remember one that was an A-10 and its engine turned into its arms as well, or maybe it was its wings. Either way it was not a practical solution. An engine is a large device and so it takes up a lot of room and adds a lot of weight. Combing arms or legs there makes its size and usability limited. In most VFs the engines are in the legs, the engines do not become the legs, the legs are large enough to contain them. In your case I see way that the power drive from either set of engines could reach the rotor and, especially with all the twisting and turning. And, the engine pods house too much of your arm and leg components to allow for the space needed for an engine. The other mecha on the other hand look great and are much more mechanically feasible, though I am curious as to why a large mecha would have a standard internal combustion engine, you would conceivably want a gas turbine at a minimum for the power requirements.

The rest looks great though I have a question about your carrier ship. Why did you put the rotating habitation section transverse to the rest of the ship? This would make transitioning into it somewhat problematic, you'd probably have to enter it from the middle of the spin and climb down to the floor. Also why did you put a spinning AWACs style radome right in the middle of that same habitation section, do you want to sterilize your crew? It is a very interesting looking ship but those two design features just kill it for me, maybe if the radome weren't there it would make more sense but then you still have the transition issue.

[F-ZeroOne]

Oh, heck, you did the Rimfire as well!

[grebo guru]

My god, a giant transforming robot that's not mechanically feasible? Unheard of!!

Seriously, Knight26, you obviously know a lot more about real-world mechanics and engineering than I. (Especially since I know virtually nothing about it -- I don't even really know the difference between a standard internal combustion engine and a gas turbine!) And I'll concede that my design is not based upon sound engineering principles. However, I am secure that a fully-transformable, fully-poseable, fully-accurate toy could be made of the Switch Blade; that, and making sure that nothing transforms TOO wackily, are always my main goals in designing a variable mech. I don't really expect nor desire mechanical feasibility in transforming mecha (or non-transforming mecha, for that matter), but of course your mileage may (and clearly does) vary.

To elaborate on the "making sure that nothing transforms TOO wackily" point:

As you said, Transformers make great use of taking existing bits and turning them into something else. I agree. They have that luxury because they are superscience-based; being living alien machines, the principles upon which they're based don't demand any kind of realism nor feasibility. With many TFs, for example, the cockpit/cabin does not actually have room for any people. (There's often a head or a pelvis or weaponry or something in there.) And yet, in the cartoons, these same TFs are shown to have complete cabin/cockpit spaces. In other words, parts of TF's magically collapse or "deflate" or get "shunted into a subspace pocket" or some other such wackiness. This is fine with me, since TFs have demonstrated all sorts of inexplicable superpowers.

This is the kind of thing I avoid when designing my own transformable mecha. (Unless I'm designing a Transformer, of course!) I'm not gonna put a cockpit in, oh, a foot or something. (I love Dancougar, but the drivers in the feet must really hate life during a kick...) I'm gonna make sure there's room for a pilot in all modes, and that the pilot can actually get IN and OUT in all modes. There'll be places for handweapons and other external equipment to go in all modes. No parts are gonna come all the way off and then reattach somewhere else during transformation. Vehicle-mode thrusters aren't gonna be pointing backwards or upside-down or something in robot mode; nor are, say, the vehicle mode's main thruster nozzles gonna turn into the robot mode's FINGERS (*cough*TF Armada Thrust*cough*). Stuff like that.

However, the intricacies of how the mech works on the inside... that I can't bring myself to worry about. At a certain point, suspension of disbelief HAS to kick in. Otherwise, the entire idea of a giant combat robot just falls to pieces.

Oh, one more thing about designing mecha (transforming or not, robot or spaceship, whatever): it has to look cool. That is, in fact, the most important thing.

Speaking of spaceships -- on the subject of the Rimfire starship, you asked about the radome and the rotating habitation section. Yes, I designed it so that one must enter from the middle of the spin and climb down to the floor. How else could it possibly be done? And as for the danger of the radome sterilizing the crew, I confess I had no idea this was a danger. (See? Told ya I know virtually nothing about real-world mechanics and engineering!) Let's just assume there's some kind of sci-fi shielding and/or electromagnetic screening that prevents this...

Thanks for your comments!

[VF5SS]

Your style is very nice. I notice that the Switchblade resembles the Layzner Mk II. Did you use it for any inspiration?

Edited November 26, 2006 by VF5SS

[sketchley]

Some comments:

1) do a bit of research. Realism of course requires some design compromises, but making things look more real, makes it easier for the audience to suspend their disbelief that such a thing can exist. Also, there are plenty of dohickies and other small (and large) features that can be added.*

2) Economy of line. Detail can be added later. If you rescale your ship to a smaller size, and the lack of detail distorts or fundementally alters the shape of the ship, then it's no good. As Gene Roddenberry said of the original Star Trek Enterprise: he wanted any 5 year-old to be able to draw the ship. As seen from the movie incarnations, layers and layers of detail can be added onto that simple base design.

For some reason, the ship reminds me of the Musai class of ships in Gundam. I humbly suggest doing a bit more research, as those ships, and the one that you designed, will have the problem of being forever put into a slow vertical rotation because their engines are off of the centerline of mass in the ships - wasting fuel in the constantly required course corrections...

* My big complaint is that the defensive laser batteries are buried between the superstructure, in a place where they can only defend straight ahead. Putting them, say, where the missile launchers or radome are, with a larger field of fire, makes them not only more useful, but more realistic. One doesn't see AA guns on Navy ships with restricted fields of fire, after all.

[sketchley]

Oh, one more thing about designing mecha (transforming or not, robot or spaceship, whatever): it has to look cool. That is, in fact, the most important thing.

Agreed with this - but again, making it more 'realistic' (through a bit of research) only makes these machines look more realistic.

Now, before I get dismissed as being a critic without an artistic leg or background to stand on, I humbly submit a transforming VF that I designed a few months ago: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...18842&st=40

I regret to say that I never completed a rear 3/4 view, but it does exist in the roughs. I also like the transformation thumbnails too for it.

Oh yeah, Grebu, make more than one view of your vehicles. It makes for an easier time in figuring out their dimensions and stuff.

[grapetang]

Hi Grebo,

Nice stuff! Were gundam, dougram, & M.Shirow inspiration for some of your designs? I particularly like the cyborg section and how you followed anatomy (like having two hinges at the knee so you can pull the heel up to the butt). Very cool! Keep up the work!

ps - Do you work for Viz?

[Extra Large Mumma]

In case anyone cares, here's a link to some original mecha drawn by yours truly:

http://www.nebulaworks.com/port_mecha.html

Grebo!

Your mechas are skillfully done. Your characters are unique. Don't stop. Do develop more characters.

[grebo guru]

Extra Large Mumma:

Thank you! I appreciate the encouragement.

grapetang:

Gundam, Dougram, Shirow, and about a zillion other series and artists are always my inspiration. I try not be a biter, but sometimes my designs can be a bit derivative. I strive for originality, as much as I can. As for where I work, well... I dunno. Maybe I shouldn't say? Eh. PM me if you really wanna talk about it.

VF5SS:

Heh. You know, it's funny. I actually really dislike the Layzner Mark-II. I think its an ugly, unimaginative, uninteresting design. However, I will concede that the head mecahnism of the Switchblade is very similar to that of the Layzner Mark-II. I don't think my design is the only one to do this, though. In fact, if I flipped back through a few books Im pretty sure I'd find that the Layzner Mark-II derived its head transformation method from some other source. Have I mentioned I think Kunio Okawara is washed up?

F-ZeroOne:

Yeah, I did all the mecha in Operation Rimfire. I'm quite proud of it -- the Gigakaiser is one of the designs Im most pleased with.

Knight26:

I've realized that the rotors must be spun by electromagnetism. With a ring of electromagnets in the base of the rotor assembly, high-speed rotation can be acheived with a minimum of moving parts. (Heck, that's how most Federation Mobile Suits in the Gundam universe move -- instead of using conventional hydraulics for their endoskeletons, they use electromagnetic assemblies. They call 'em "Field Motors").

Sketchley:

"Do a bit of research" eh? Well, please understand I take a bit of offense at this. I own a massive (I mean MASSIVE) library of anime books, magazines, and manga, and I have over 100 books on Gundam alone. I know all about the Musai, and ships like it, thanks very much. I have no problem with it. Some of its incarnations are exceptionally cool, I'd say. Expressing concern over a ship design "being put into a slow vertical rotation because their engines are off of the centerline of mass in the ships - wasting fuel in the constantly required course corrections" is realism-based nitpicking at fantasy-based fiction. It's just a silly thing to do. If that's the kind of thing you worry when watching sci-fi, you must really have an agonizing time watching just about ANY of it.

To further comment on the research thing: I have been paid (by several employers) to write about anime and mecha. I have been paid for mecha artwork and it has been published. I think I'm fairly well qualified as it is. I have not, admittedly, learned how all machines actually work -- to do so would requite *another* huge invenstment of time and money, and I have a 9-to-5. And a girlfriend. And pets. And, most importantly, no interest in becoming that engineering-savvy.

As for "economy of line," that's all a matter of taste. If Economy Of Line is your preference, I guess you must hate the Macross from DYRL. And the Star Destroyer. And the Sulaco. And, oh, lots and lots of other sci-fi designs. And maybe you do; that's fine. But remember, wanting a ship to be so simple a 5-year old could draw it is a matter of personal preference. I see no reason to adhere to such principles. In fact, I rather abhor the idea.

Finally, I actually have drawn more than one view of many of my mecha. Not all of them, but many. I haven't put all of them on my site, and I don't plan to. Its unnecessary, wasting space, time, and bandwidth. I commend you for having your own mecha designs to offer as a counterpoint -- that's a lot more than most critics would have. I further commend you for your design itself, as it looks feasible and original. However, I'd like to humbly suggest to you that when you do drawings of transforming jet-robots, you should not forget to make them actually look cool.

Grebo

[eugimon]

wow.. I congratulate you on your success as a published designer.

I am taken a'back by your responses though.. for someone who so casually dismisses the works of other artists, I would humbly suggest you learn to take criticism (especially the constructive and well meaning ones here) with a more magnanimous attitude.

[kaiotheforsaken]

From one artist to another i can say i do like your mecha deisgns. That being said, i would agree with eugimon about criticism. Art is a harsh business, and just becuase you have been doing it for years doesnt mean you arent gonna recieve comments that arent unflattering.

As for economy of the line, not to attack you, but the Sulaco and the Star destroyer were really bad examples, seeing as how seeing that type of triangle instantly equates Star Destroyer in i'm sure many peoples heads. And while a 5 probably hasnt seen Aliens, that ships outline is high recognizeable if you have seen the movie a few times.

I salute you on your talent and sucess, and happen to find the Swtichblade to be a good looking mecha. But everyone is entitled to their opinion, and displaying work for people to see, means they pretty mch will voice their opinion. I dont think anyone was attacking you, just making comments on preference. No one (from what i read) was denying your talent as an artist.

[sketchley]

(sigh)

Thanks Eugimon.

Grebu, to clarify, I meant real world research, not research of other anime, and manga. Yes, they are good inspiration, but take both Kawamori and Shirow as examples: the former researches real-world aircraft, and the research of insects is very apparent in the work of the later. Both of their research, and subsequent application, has lead to new, and interesting designs - and that is exactly what is needed in the overgrown toe-nail of repeatedness in the manga and anime industry, if one wishes to be successful; or at least noticed.

Also, when artists learn about illustrating the human body (and doing humanoid mecha is an extension of that,) they learn about the inner workings of the human body. No, not at the level of a doctor, but still at a level to know what is underneath the flesh and hair, and how the body moves. So research at some leveLA, and observation of ones surroundings are part and parcel with being an artist, and a designer. At the very least, it allows ones audience to more easily suspend their disbelief.

Regarding making things simple: if one has to draw an object many, many times (as animators, and manga artists must,) one tends to choose the simpler design over the complicated one. That is where I am coming from when I say 'economy of line'. Even in DYRL, economy of line is apparent. The animators still used the same, simple, blocky VF shape design from the series; they simply embellished it.

Apologies if my comments offend you, as the intent is only to assist you, and others reading this thread. Ignore my advice and criticism if you need to, but please keep in mind that what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

As for 'coolness factor', that is all in the eye of the beholder. Please refer to that thread for other people's comments on it, in non-upset frames of mind.

Edited November 29, 2006 by sketchley

[grebo guru]

I'm fine with constructive criticism. I'm not OK with condescension. Which, whether you meant it or not, is how you came off, Sketch. I shouldn't be surprised, though, given the general atmosphere of these boards.

[jenius]

I think we have a pretty decent general atmosphere. Sketch just mastered English via communication with some real arseholes so his take on civility is not berating your mother and race. When you look at things from that point of view, he really was quite gentle in his assessment.

- just messin' with ya Sketch.

[sketchley]

One must have a thick skin when dealing with internet based Macross fan communities... Me thinks it has something to do with the "we're not talking face to face, so I can get away with saying stuff that would ordinarily get a punch in the face" factor. There's also the "can't walk away from it" factor too, as when one returns, whatever it is, is still there, ripping open the fresh wounds once more. Ah well...

[Mr March]

I'm fine with constructive criticism. I'm not OK with condescension. Which, whether you meant it or not, is how you came off, Sketch. I shouldn't be surprised, though, given the general atmosphere of these boards.

Not every MW member acts like a know-it-all grebo. Don't let the few bad apples here ruin the bunch.

[Knight26]

Most of the criticism I have seen in this thread has been constructive, it is people trying to help, if you want to see some very unconstructive criticism take a look at some of my old threads. The one where A-1 redrew one of my designs as falice comes to mind. The amount of research that Sketch is suggesting also isn't vast, if you want to make your mechs more realistic then the next time you go to the bookstore instead of buying the latest Intron-depot pick up a book on mechanical cross-sections. I garuntee that taking that as even bathroom reading will increase your knowledge of how machines work and will help you become a better, more realistic artist.

Also as to your electromagnetic rotors. You are basically describing a very advanced motor, which is fine, but there is still a problem, what/where is your power supply?

[eugimon]

I think we have a pretty decent general atmosphere. Sketch just mastered English via communication with some real arseholes so his take on civility is not berating your mother and race. When you look at things from that point of view, he really was quite gentle in his assessment.

- just messin' with ya Sketch.

yeah sketch, stop learning english from jenius.

[jenius]

The one where A-1 redrew one of my designs as falice comes to mind.

yeah sketch, stop learning english from jenius.

[EXO]

Sorry guys, this section is only for Macross related fanart.