Agent ONE Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Don't jump the gun and get rid of your animeigo set so soon, chances are the director's commentary won't make it into this release, which is a worthy extra. 358370[/snapback] So wait, you think those soul-less bastards at HG will actually release ANOTHER version of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 (edited) No, I think AnimEigo is going to hold on to any material they went out and got themselves, like their remastered mono audio track, and their director's commentary on episodes 35 & 36. Of course I assume you mean aside from ADV's extra's-less thinpak release which is inevitable. Edited January 8, 2006 by Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I think once sales start to slump, we'll see the Macross Criterion edition, with 8-channel DTS ES and CG special effects edited in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted January 8, 2006 Author Share Posted January 8, 2006 (edited) I think once sales start to slump, we'll see the Macross Criterion edition, with 8-channel DTS ES and CG special effects edited in. 358497[/snapback] And the Platinum Edition, where the there's all new animated footage, the Diamond Edition, where Han shoots first (again), the Mega-Ultra edition, where Bobby Ewing's death isn't a dream, and the Bootleg edition, with official Chinese subtitles and the alternate ending where Henry Blake doesn't get shot down over the Sea of Japan. Edited January 8, 2006 by Pat Payne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 But will there be rioting fans wearking t-shirts that say "Hikaru shot first!" after the platinum edition but before the Diamond one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikuro Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 .......... >_> Hikaru DID shoot first! I SAW IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 .......... >_> Hikaru DID shoot first! I SAW IT! 358540[/snapback] HG says he didn't, and won't, and the fans need to get over it because having him cap that zentradi in cold blood was too mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 But will there be rioting fans wearking t-shirts that say "Hikaru shot first!" after the platinum edition but before the Diamond one? 358531[/snapback] Most likely. I just heard the LAPD has a tactical alert out just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isamu Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Both are inferior to the Hong Kong DYRL dub 356711[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 All will be solved once they have Macross Zero Roy's ghost edited in at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REX-203 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) Hi everyone, I'm new here, but I've been a Macross fan for a pretty long time now. Like so many others, I started watching RT in 1985, but hallellujah, I have seen the light as of a few years ago. Anyway, I just got volume 1 with the box today (from Best Buy, for $25.99). While I'm glad to have a dubbed version, I'm disappointed in many of the completely careless mistakes made with it, that could've been so easily avoided: First and foremost... MuhCROSS?! When I first heard this coming out of the female narrator's voice in the beginning, I was like, "what the...?" Have I been saying it wrong all these years? But I see now that you guys have pronounced it the same way I have (MA-cross). So then I ask... What the hell were they thinking? Were they TRYING to screw it up from the get go? Same thing goes for "Roy FAH-ker". Why oh why on Earth...?! It really may seem trivial and insignificant to casual fans, but to me, and I'm sure 99% of you, it really is a major blemish. Voice actors selection, on the other hand, is slightly more of a subjective topic. I personally think they could've chosen worse for all the VAs. No dubbed VA can ever live up to the original, even Mari. However, it is kind of awkward hearing Mari's prominent Japanese accent when everyone else sound like English is their native language. It's just that Minmay doesn't seem to really fit in with the other cast members. Don't get me wrong, I love Mari Iijima as much as the next Minmay fan, I'm just not completely confident she was the right choice for the English adaptation this time around. So yeah, those basically are my only two gripes: Macross and Focker pronunciation, and heavy accent Minmay. Now to go a bit off topic... Regarding the AnimEigo version, there was a problem with the discs cracking? How does this occur? Is it by negligent handling? Or do they just crack with age? I have the entire set, and last I checked, they were still in flawless condition. How can I avoid them from becoming damaged? Thanks in advance fellow citizens of Macross. It's great to be here. Edited January 10, 2006 by REX-203 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi everyone, I'm new here, but I've been a Macross fan for a pretty long time now. Like so many others, I started watching RT in 1985, but hallellujah, I have seen the light as of a few years ago. Anyway, I just got volume 1 with the box today (from Best Buy, for $25.99). While I'm glad to have a dubbed version, I'm disappointed in many of the completely careless mistakes made with it, that could've been so easily avoided: First and foremost... MuhCROSS?! When I first heard this coming out of the female narrator's voice in the beginning, I was like, "what the...?" Have I been saying it wrong all these years? But I see now that you guys have pronounced it the same way I have (MA-cross). It's not just us. Everyone in the japanese audio track says Mack-ross too. Even the guy doing the title song. What the hell were they thinking? Were they TRYING to screw it up from the get go? Yes.  No dubbed VA can ever live up to the original, even Mari. So repeat performances are inherently inferior? Now to go a bit off topic...Regarding the AnimEgo version, there was a problem with the discs cracking? How does this occur? Is it by negligent handling? Or do they just crack with age? I have the entire set, and last I checked, they were still in flawless condition. How can I avoid them from becoming damaged? Several people had issues with the disks splitting from the hub. There's not really a known cause. I don't think there's been a consistent pattern that anyone's noticed regarding purchase date, viewing frequency, or anything else. My best guess would be some of the disks got damaged during production just enough to start a crack later. Of course, with Animeigo's license expired, I don't see good odds for an exchange program. Could try hitting HG up for an exchange if your's start splitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REX-203 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Thanks for the info regarding the AnimEigo release JBO. I guess I can't really say ALL repeat performances are inferior, as that would be too generalizing. I am just wondering if Mari may have been chosen to do the English version for the wrong reason - for the sake of a repeat performance, and not her actual ability to perform in English. That's all. And it's tough for me to say that, being as big of a fan of Mari's as I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Welcome REX-203! As for the cracking issue, I'd just make some dup sets of the originals and play the copies. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REX-203 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Welcome REX-203!  As for the cracking issue, I'd just make some dup sets of the originals and play the copies. Just my two cents. 358849[/snapback] Thanks FM! It's good to see a familiar face, but it's even better to see an old friend. Good to see you bud. Thanks for the advice. I needs to gets me a DVD burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Mari has one thing going for her that the entire reat of the dub cast doesn't. She know's how to pronunce all of the names correctly As I said earlier, while her english is broken, she know's the part, and she's putting the right emotion into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crasis Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi everyone, I'm new here, but I've been a Macross fan for a pretty long time now. Like so many others, I started watching RT in 1985, but hallellujah, I have seen the light as of a few years ago. Welcome to MW! I've been a member here for years, but only recently started to come out of my shell (I'm a lurker by nature, what can I say? ). This is definitely my favorite little "home away from home" on the web, with a very colorful cast of characters. I don't think you could find a more opinionated and informative group anywhere else. First and foremost... MuhCROSS?!...What the hell were they thinking? Were they TRYING to screw it up from the get go? I also broke down and purchased the dvd recently (despite my earlier misgivings) and had the same painful reaction when viewing. The pronunciations are SO awful! Even my fiancé, who I wouldn't call a major fan of the series by any means, kept asking me how it was possible that this was released with the TITLE of the show incorrectly pronounced. Every "MuhCROSS" resulted in the two of us locking eyes in disgust. Seriously, how can they justify this as "accurate"? I swear, it would be akin to FOX releasing a "completely new accurate dvd" of the hit series "FEAR-FLEA" from the guy who brought you "Sara-NIH-tie!" What gets me is how the "expert translator" (Javier Lopez) they brought on board repeatedly slips in and out of "MAcross" AND "MuhCROSS" during his commentary and interview. Matt Greenfield (ADR Script Director) also does the same during the commentary track on episode 3. It's like these guys couldn't even figure out how to pronounce it, despite listening to the Japanese audio track and the THEME song. Even ROBOTECH, of all things, had a correct pronunciation of the word. FAH-ker is bad, yes, but the second most glaring issue besides "MuhCROSS" (to me, anyway) is hih-CAR-u (sometimes hih-CAR-oh!). It's even more apparent in episode 4, when Mari correctly pronounces Hikaru (no emphasis on the middle syllable). It's also interesting to listen to the commentary with Mari Ijima and the American vocalist for Misa, in which it almost seems as if Mari is (in her own polite way) constantly correcting the woman by using the accurate pronunciations every time a "MuhCROSS" or "hih-CAR-u" is uttered. My third major gripe with the dub (besides some blatant OVERacting and shrill shouting) is the gratuitous swearing and slang (Global's "This ship is a piece of shi..."; Kim's "Oh SH!T!"; Claudia's "That's lame!"; just about anything Roy says; every character saying "Freakin" at least once, etc.), which really adds nothing to the show and results in moments of awkward, juvenile dialogue. Part of the reason I bought this disc was to have something to show my kids in the future, but the out-of-character "adult" dialogue makes me question that decision. I'm no prude by any means, but a lot of this stuff was just out of character and unnecessary. Oh, and Keith was right-on about the POOR Japanese audio track. Man, did they screw up that one. Hell, they could've swiped the audio from the Animeigo release if they were having THAT much trouble with the original masters. The hiss and muddy fx, dialogue, etc is very apparent, especially when compared to Animeigo's release. I was hoping to have this new series as a replacement for my original set (in case of cracking, which I'm happy to report is nil at this time), but the audio on the Japanese track (the track I'd listen to far more often after experiencing the dub) is just a mess. I guess I'll have the ADV set for those really bizarre moments that I want to hear some overacting/cursing characters and save the Animeigo for seriously digesting the series in all it's glory. All the negatives aside, the bonus features with Mari, and her English portrayal of Minmay (even with the accent) are what made this worth purchasing. And, sadly, as hypocritical as this sounds, I'll probably buy the rest of the volumes... not for ADV--certainly not or Harmony Gold--but for Mari. She's putting her heart into this, and I'll gladly support that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverTechJunkie Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I went to my local Fry's store and they didn't have the Macross DVD . They have all the other ADV stuff but they don't know how to order DVDs. They also didn't have The Flash TV series which also comes out today. I just got Transporter 2. I'll go check Best Buy if I get out from work early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Mari has one thing going for her that the entire reat of the dub cast doesn't. She know's how to pronunce all of the names correctly As I said earlier, while her english is broken, she know's the part, and she's putting the right emotion into it. 358889[/snapback] I completely agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernarias Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So is this dub worse than the original Macross dub from 1985 (first three episodes released on video tape)? I don't think I'll be buying this but I will probably rent it for a laugh. F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myriad Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Grabbed it! Typical rough dub. At least there is some friggin distribution this time around though......... Might make more people want to give this old show a shot..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 So is this dub worse than the original Macross dub from 1985 (first three episodes released on video tape)? I don't think I'll be buying this but I will probably rent it for a laugh.F. 359044[/snapback] I guess we'll be able to find out, as the original '85 mail-order dub is included as an extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginrai Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I guess we'll be able to find out, as the original '85 mail-order dub is included as an extra. 359049[/snapback] I'm pretty sure it's only the first episode, just like the extra in the Robotech Legacy DVDs. The VHS has three episodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) Post your opinions on the Macross dub. I'm hoping for concise well expressed, specific crticisms of the dub as compared to the subbed version. Have they deviated too far from the original script? Is the show in the "Spirit" of the original series? Specific issues that are distracting, intolerable, etc... Please keep on topic, I'm very curious to hear from the vets and their specific opinions. BTW, feel free to express your opinions to ADV directly... http://www.advfilms.com/FILMScontact.asp I tend to send any comments to the producers through sales, since they are more interested in customer feedback and how it may affect sales. Edited January 11, 2006 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) 1. The mis-pronounciation of "Macross"! It is pronounced like lacrosse, not how it should be, MACross. 2. The listed title as "Super Dimension Fortress". It is a Super DIMENSIONAL Fortress which describes it's ability to space fold and the enery systems which power that ability. Which is described as Super Dimensional energy. 3. They anglicised all the names except Minmay. She is still referred to in RT speak as Lynn Minmay, but it should be Minmay Lynn if it were anglicised correctly. 4. Fokker doesn't sound like it's pronounced correctly, but others who know better could correct me on that. 5. I miss the vocal echo the Zentreadi had in the original and even in RT. It's missing in this one. 6. I think the director should have worked a bit longer with Mari to get her english dialogue better. There are points where her accent is very thick. But as already stated, she's probably putting more effort into this than any other voice actor and the fact that she is pronouncing the names correctly makes any accent forgivable. 7. The audio engineer needs to watch that the sound effects don't drown out the dialogue, as in a few instances it did. . Edited January 11, 2006 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Threads merged to avoid duplication. Zinjo, please read through the last several pages of this thread. There are plenty of the types of comments you are looking for already. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) What gets me is how the "expert translator" (Javier Lopez) they brought on board repeatedly slips in and out of "MAcross" AND "MuhCROSS" during his commentary and interview. Matt Greenfield (ADR Script Director) also does the same during the commentary track on episode 3. It's like these guys couldn't even figure out how to pronounce it, despite listening to the Japanese audio track and the THEME song. Even ROBOTECH, of all things, had a correct pronunciation of the word. FAH-ker is bad, yes, but the second most glaring issue besides "MuhCROSS" (to me, anyway) is hih-CAR-u (sometimes hih-CAR-oh!). It's even more apparent in episode 4, when Mari correctly pronounces Hikaru (no emphasis on the middle syllable). It's also interesting to listen to the commentary with Mari Ijima and the American vocalist for Misa, in which it almost seems as if Mari is (in her own polite way) constantly correcting the woman by using the accurate pronunciations every time a "MuhCROSS" or "hih-CAR-u" is uttered. My third major gripe with the dub (besides some blatant OVERacting and shrill shouting) is the gratuitous swearing and slang (Global's "This ship is a piece of shi..."; Kim's "Oh SH!T!"; Claudia's "That's lame!"; just about anything Roy says; every character saying "Freakin" at least once, etc.), which really adds nothing to the show and results in moments of awkward, juvenile dialogue. Part of the reason I bought this disc was to have something to show my kids in the future, but the out-of-character "adult" dialogue makes me question that decision. I'm no prude by any means, but a lot of this stuff was just out of character and unnecessary. Oh, and Keith was right-on about the POOR Japanese audio track. Man, did they screw up that one. Hell, they could've swiped the audio from the Animeigo release if they were having THAT much trouble with the original masters. The hiss and muddy fx, dialogue, etc is very apparent, especially when compared to Animeigo's release. I was hoping to have this new series as a replacement for my original set (in case of cracking, which I'm happy to report is nil at this time), but the audio on the Japanese track (the track I'd listen to far more often after experiencing the dub) is just a mess. I guess I'll have the ADV set for those really bizarre moments that I want to hear some overacting/cursing characters and save the Animeigo for seriously digesting the series in all it's glory. All the negatives aside, the bonus features with Mari, and her English portrayal of Minmay (even with the accent) are what made this worth purchasing. And, sadly, as hypocritical as this sounds, I'll probably buy the rest of the volumes... not for ADV--certainly not or Harmony Gold--but for Mari. She's putting her heart into this, and I'll gladly support that. That's what I was looking for in a review. Thanks. I have much more to go on now. If they ever do a future dub (ie like how you can choose two different english dubs for akira on a single dvd; original or a newer one) I hope they take some of the points here for consideration. Despite what some people think, just because there are a lot of bad eng dubs (I agree listening to the original VA is superior) doesn't mean ALL eng dubs have to be bad. I think that is bias from fans for the original showing. And yes, if they could, bring back that zentradi echo. They even tried something a bit like that on the macross plus eng dub when guld speaks in his yf21. I'm not sure if it was just him thinking to himself or not and that's why it was there, but I really liked that effect. Edited January 11, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Javier Lopez in Japan must have been an interesting thing to see. They must have been laughing at him constantly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 2. The listed title as "Super Dimension Fortress". It is a Super DIMENSIONAL Fortress which describes it's ability to space fold and the enery systems which power that ability. Which is described as Super Dimensional energy. No. In EVERY romanization, the correct form is "Super Dimension Fortress." 3. They anglicised all the names except Minmay. She is still referred to in RT speak as Lynn Minmay, but it should be Minmay Lynn if it were anglicised correctly. Nope, she even signs her own name in the series as "Lynn Minmay." That's her stage name. Never, in any romanization, or anywhere else, has she been known as "Minmay Lynn." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Nope, she even signs her own name in the series as "Lynn Minmay." That's her stage name. Never, in any romanization, or anywhere else, has she been known as "Minmay Lynn." 359291[/snapback] Yes and if you listen to the subs, when Hikaru is formally introduced he is introduced as Ichijo Hikaru, which is proper in Asian culture. His first name is "Hikaru", not "Ichijo". The way she signs her name in the show is correct for Asia. Just because it has never been romanized any other way isn't an argument against my point. Her first name is not "Lynn" it is "Minmay". Thus a correct romanization would be Minmay Lynn. A current example would be Ziyi Zhang. She switched her names around to properly reflect her first name, as most western interviewers were referring to her by her last name, not her first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernarias Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 As long as the sub is accurate, I really don't care about the failings of the dub. I probably won't buy this version since I already own the Animeigo version but this interest me since they may release a HD version down the road (before I get any flack about this being impossible, remember that anime in the 80s was still put on 16mm film first and then transfered to video for broadcasting purposes. If the 16mm are still available, then these could be used to produce a standard screen HD disk. As long as there is demand in Japan for this then it will happen). F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 And yes, if they could, bring back that zentradi echo. They even tried something a bit like that on the macross plus eng dub when guld speaks in his yf21. I'm not sure if it was just him thinking to himself or not and that's why it was there, but I really liked that effect. 359250[/snapback] That's exactly what was going on with Guld. US norm is for an echo on "thought buggles." The echo in SDF Macross was diffrent. It was meant to emphasize that they weren't REALLY speaking a terrestrial language. It was an alien language that was being presented as japanese for the original broadcast TV audience's convenience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 As long as the sub is accurate, I really don't care about the failings of the dub. I probably won't buy this version since I already own the Animeigo version but this interest me since they may release a HD version down the road (before I get any flack about this being impossible, remember that anime in the 80s was still put on 16mm film first and then transfered to video for broadcasting purposes. If the 16mm are still available, then these could be used to produce a standard screen HD disk. As long as there is demand in Japan for this then it will happen).F. 359325[/snapback] The thing with Macross isn't that it's not possible, but that it's not beneficial. The animation is so flat that Animeigo had to actively introduce noise after the restoration to bring it to a viewable level. It has clear gains from progressive scan and the resultant loss of "fringe" artifacts , but the benefits of a higher resolution capture are questionable. And the original film is still available(really amazing, given how many have been lost...), but it's in horrid shape. It's scratched, torn, faded, and so forth. Thats' why the japanese releases have been so lacking in quality. The laserdisk release of Macross actually included a note apologizing because everything looked like poo, and explained that it was because the masters were in atrocious shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) A current example would be Ziyi Zhang. She switched her names around to properly reflect her first name, as most western interviewers were referring to her by her last name, not her first. 359302[/snapback] However, that being said, I still maintain that the point is that for 20 years, on both sides of the Pond, and notwithstanding Asian naming conventions, Lynn Minmay's name has been...well..."Lynn Minmay." To say "Minmay Lynn," while obviously more correct, would sound wrong, even to we few, we happy few, we band of nitpickers here on MW. Sometimes the error in a name sticks better than reality. Take a look at General and President of the US, Ulysses S. Grant. His real name was not Ulysses Samson Grant, but Hyram Ulysses Grant. But a clerical error during his time at West Point created the name that everyone knows him by. The same thing here. Someone in the dim mists of history forgot to take Asian naming conventions into account when they romanized Minmay's name. Everyoen and their uncle calls her "Lynn Minmay." Edited January 11, 2006 by Pat Payne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) A current example would be Ziyi Zhang. She switched her names around to properly reflect her first name, as most western interviewers were referring to her by her last name, not her first. 359302[/snapback] However, that being said, I still maintain that the point is that for 20 years, on both sides of the Pond, and notwithstanding Asian naming conventions, Lynn Minmay's name has been...well..."Lynn Minmay." To say "Minmay Lynn," while obviously more correct, would sound wrong, even to we few, we happy few, we band of nitpickers here on MW. Sometimes the error in a name sticks better than reality. Take a look at General and President of the US, Ulysses S. Grant. His real name was not Ulysses Samson Grant, but Hyram Ulysses Grant. But a clerical error during his time at West Point created the name that everyone knows him by. The same thing here. Someone in the dim mists of history forgot to take Asian naming conventions into account when they romanized Minmay's name. Everyoen and their uncle calls her "Lynn Minmay." 359414[/snapback] Ahhh. I get it. Accuracy is all important unless someone tries to "move your cheese"... The "accuracy" being, the correct romanized/anglicized name for Japanese characters. Interesting.... The reason why "Everyoen and their uncle" calls her Lynn Minmay in North America is because of Harmony Gold's RT where they first heard her name. That is where the majority of Mac fans started from. They learned of Macross through RT and then discovered the real show afterward. I for one am not interested in perpetuating any part of HG's interpretation of the show in this dub. I stand by my point. The majority aren't always right <place your own political comment here..>. Edited January 12, 2006 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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