CoryHolmes Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) ...He is just a label whore. Ignore him. Flamebait much? I won't even dignify this (or you) with a response. ... I don't think its possible for me to be more dignified than I already am. Modest too, I see. Edited October 17, 2004 by CoryHolmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHX Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) The delta-wing design we see on Shin's VF-0 is there simply to make the hero mecha different from the "cannon fodder" mecha; and that's something I've always despised about Macross. It'd be like giving Luke Skywalker a different X-wing during the Death Star run just to show that he's the hero of the movie. Different paint schemes is alright, and even believable. A wholly different mecha? Not my cup of tea. something uve despised about Macross?... or Macross Zero? Hikaru's VF-1J wasnt a night and day diff from the other mechs. just a diff head and diff color scheme. shins vf-0 is just diff color from the cf vf-0. they look the same to me... or am i missing something? Oh, I bitch about those a lot. Check out the Warzone on RT.com and you'll see me go off on that. I just haven't had the chance, or reason, to bring it up here on MW. how are you even a macross or robotech fan!?!?!?! most fans LIKE things... not bitch about things. u seem to hate a lot. u should go design ur own mech and cartoon. Edited October 17, 2004 by AlphaHX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Shin's VF-0D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Roy's VF-0S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Yes, I've seen Lt. Holmes there bitch, bitch, and bitch about the Macross mecha. Funny, a majority of Macross fans here don't have a problem with the mecha because it's all really logical. And why shouldn't the VF-0 have all sorts of support equipment? It's not like any of it was mass-produced. And the VF-0D is pretty different from the VF-0A/B/S because the D version was designed to pioneer the possibility of a delta-wing designed VF. Cory is the local Macross-mecha hater here, that's funny considering the place he's in. Haters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 The delta-wing design we see on Shin's VF-0 is there simply to make the hero mecha different from the "cannon fodder" mecha; and that's something I've always despised about Macross. It'd be like giving Luke Skywalker a different X-wing during the Death Star run just to show that he's the hero of the movie. Different paint schemes is alright, and even believable. A wholly different mecha? Not my cup of tea. something uve despised about Macross?... or Macross Zero? Hikaru's VF-1J wasnt a night and day diff from the other mechs. just a diff head and diff color scheme. The problem I have with that is that Hikaru got the -1J right out of flight school, when the all-mighty Compendium states: VF-1J: Version manufactured by licensee Shinnakasu Heavy Industry and assigned to air team and squadron leaders. The only reason he got it in the first place was because he was the hero of the show and needed a different mecha from all the rest. Had he been assigned a -1A when he graduated, then picked up the -1J after Mars (and his promotion), then moved onto the -1S when he took over for Roy, I'd be the happiest fan on the planet. But he skipped right over that -1A class, and I don't like that. how are you even a macross or robotech fan!?!?!?! most fans LIKE things... not bitch about things. I only bitch about SOME things. Just the details, since I'm a perfectionist by nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Not really, since those are both VF-0Ds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) The problem I have with that is that Hikaru got the -1J right out of flight school, when the all-mighty Compendium states: The only reason he got it in the first place was because he was the hero of the show and needed a different mecha from all the rest. Had he been assigned a -1A when he graduated, then picked up the -1J after Mars (and his promotion), then moved onto the -1S when he took over for Roy, I'd be the happiest fan on the planet. But he skipped right over that -1A class, and I don't like that. Haven't you ever thought that MAYBE ROY had something to do with Hikaru or as you like it, Rick, getting a VF-1J? Edited October 17, 2004 by Macross_Fanboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHX Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Not really, since those are both VF-0Ds. exactly... so how is shin any more special other than the color scheme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHX Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I only bitch about SOME things. Just the details, since I'm a perfectionist by nature. theres a fine line between being a perfectionist and just being flat out anal. just warning you. be careful where you stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hmm, what's so imperfect about Macross's mecha? Maybe we can split you a new one Robojunkie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hmm, what's so imperfect about Macross's mecha? No, you see.....when Rick Hunter gets a VF-1J, that's ok. But when Hikaru Ichijo gets a VF-1J that's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHX Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) My problem is that Macross Zero has gone overboard. EVERYTHING is "prototype" and "special use". To me, it means that the producers and designers have gone with new stuff simply for the sake of having new stuff in the show. I mean, they even had a prototype full armour system for the VF-0 to use. Why not use the regular system? Because they could design something new and maybe sell a product off of it. what would you rather have? a bunch of cg vf-1? that would be boring. Macross Zero was made for fans that were curious about the storyline of the first prototypes of the usage of zentradi technology to make a variable aircraft. if they didnt create something new to look at, it would be boring. imo, Macross Zero was made purely for fans. If they wanted to milk Macross like crazy, Shoji has a bunch of other designs as shown in his Design Works that he could use to create a million Macross shows. But then Macross will just end up like where Gundam is right now. As much as I liked the original Gundam series, i kinda dont like where its heading with Gundam Seed. but thats besides the point... So, it actually doesnt seem that the designers and producers created something new JUST for the sake of creating something new. Prequels are quite common and popular right now and most fans would like to where things started. For VF-0 ships to be "prototype" or "special use" isnt all that shocking being that they ARE prototypes and i would HOPE that variable aircrafts with new zentradi technology will be for "special use" and not just to fly around for site seeing. and... why not have a protoype full armor system? does everything not have prototype testing and beta versions when it comes to technology? the way ur commenting on Macross Zero, im starting to wonder if you even realized that Macross Zero takes place BEFORE Macross. i dont see why u dont like "NEW" things anyways. if the vf-0 were crappy and didnt have any "cool factor" to them, they would be laaaame. why are u even watching an anime if all u care about is designs and storyline? if u dont want any flashy cool factor, go to an art museum and go read a good book. its worth doing. i recommend it. you might learn to appreciate things more. all you seem to do is rip on other peoples work and designs. what have you done that is so perfect and flawless? being the "perfectionist" that you are, does everything you do PLEASE everyone around you? i doubt it. if you dont like Macross Zero, thats fine. But dont go off blaming the designers and producers. They seem to please a lot of people and you may not be one of them. Is it their fault? Many of us dont think so. I dont like being involved in the many debates that go on in MW but your pride is getting in the way of the 10 foot pole thats up ur @$$. pull it out and stop your whining. why am i getting so worked up about this? uve insulted the person in charge of macross in a forum for fans of macross aka the people in charge of the show. but the way i see it, ur the one whos a insult... a insult to us macross fans. we dont want your "bitching" here. go cry yourself a river, build a bridge and get the hell over it. Edited October 17, 2004 by AlphaHX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 ...He is just a label whore. Ignore him. Flamebait much? I won't even dignify this (or you) with a response. ... I don't think its possible for me to be more dignified than I already am. And you DID respond to me LOL! Modest too, I see. Its not easy being this great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Guys don't egg on agentone, just let him go off oil up and perform unspeakable acts with himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Pinche Haro! Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 uhh...no more debating...or this thread is gonna get closed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hikaru is shown training with a VF-1A, he was obviously skilled enough (and the nepatism didn't hurt either) to warrent starting out with a VF-1J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I'm a perfectionist by nature. Boy, do you have your work cut out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) why am i getting so worked up about this? uve insulted the person in charge of macross in a forum for fans of macross aka the people in charge of the show. but the way i see it, ur the one whos a insult... a insult to us macross fans. we dont want your "bitching" here. go cry yourself a river, build a bridge and get the hell over it. Here, here! Go back home to Robojunk.com and bitch about it Robojunkie, I'm sure a lot of your deluded buddies there will agree with you and comfort you in your moment of weakness. Now, here's something(more like somethings) I find EXTREMELY stupid that the mecha hater here thinks is soooo flawed. What I hate is the fact that the Macross mecha are waaaaay too over-powered for a show that tries as hard as Macross to be "realistic". Actually, I'm very aware that the YF-mecha from Mac+ are supposed to be better than the rest, it's a major plot point in that show. But what I don't like is how much MORE powerful they are than the rest. Going from sea-level to space in 48 seconds? Where are the mecha going to go in the next generation? 15 seconds? Instant teleportation? Oh, wait. They'll be able to fold on their own. Don't need to go orbital. Then you should consider the Queldrann-Rau (sp) totally unfeasable with it's near 100 short-range missles. In the RT universe, the Alpha design was inspired by the success that particular Zentradi mecha had against VF-1s in combat I'd like to say for the record that I despise the Macross mecha progression. The Macross universe has totally focused on the transforming gimmick instead of coming up with a balanced "believable" fighting force that I see in Robotech. Those valks are designed with front-line combat in mind, and I don't like that. Now....BITCH PLEASE! Edited October 17, 2004 by Macross_Fanboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Perhaps he prefers a mechanical progression that's so nonsensicle & under-explained, that it can't help but be widely up to fanspeculation. With tecnical explanations like "Skull one is better than rick hunter veritech because it has more head lasers" how can he lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Perhaps he prefers a mechanical progression that's so nonsensicle & under-explained, that it can't help but be widely up to fanspeculation. With tecnical explanations like "Skull one is better than rick hunter veritech because it has more head lasers" how can he lose? All those VF-1s in Robojunk are milestones ahead of each other, the VF-1S "Skull One" is MILESTONES ahead of the other variants in the craptacular Robojunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 (edited) this thread is so childish, i'm not even going to post in it! seriously though, the fact he likes robotech dont' make his arugments any less valid. considering he's stating his opinion on most things i think you guys are being a bit more harsh than is warnented. but what ever. imho i'll take 50 foot tall social retards over underwater bird men (birds underwater? penguin!) anyday. the arguments against Mzeros greatness are many but at MACROSS world its not exactly the place to make the point. Edited October 17, 2004 by KingNor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Not really, since those are both VF-0Ds. You really don't get it, do you? Your complaint was that Shin got a Valk that was somehow "unique" becuase he was the hero of the show. Those screengrabs show many other VF-0D's, showing that Shin's valk is completely run-of-the-mill. Cory Holmes = owned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Pinche Haro! Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 i also thought that shin got his own paint job simply because he's an ace... if the other guys were aces then they'd get their own special paint job too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 What I hate is the fact that the Macross mecha are waaaaay too over-powered for a show that tries as hard as Macross to be "realistic". Actually, I'm very aware that the YF-mecha from Mac+ are supposed to be better than the rest, it's a major plot point in that show. But what I don't like is how much MORE powerful they are than the rest. Going from sea-level to space in 48 seconds? Where are the mecha going to go in the next generation? 15 seconds? Instant teleportation? Oh, wait. They'll be able to fold on their own. Don't need to go orbital. Then you should consider the Queldrann-Rau (sp) totally unfeasable with it's near 100 short-range missles. In the RT universe, the Alpha design was inspired by the success that particular Zentradi mecha had against VF-1s in combat I'd like to say for the record that I despise the Macross mecha progression. The Macross universe has totally focused on the transforming gimmick instead of coming up with a balanced "believable" fighting force that I see in Robotech. Those valks are designed with front-line combat in mind, and I don't like that. Now....BITCH PLEASE! *raises hand up high* Oh oh oh, I wanna bitch! 1) Funny, cuz we seem to lose a lot of VFs every episode. 2) Let see, technology gets better and is implemented in the next generation. That computer your using is probably much better than the one you had 10 years ago. What's the problem with implementing new technology? Even Robotech does it. 3) Whoever said we had to be feasible? Flying transforming robots should be the first indication that we aren't in Kansas anymore. 4) To each his own. But just so we are mutually comfortable, I sure many of us here are not happy with the RT-mecha progression, as if it ever had any. It just recycles designs with every pic we see. 5) "Transforming gimmick"? Funny, what's that I see at RT? Oh the "Invid Overlord". Guess what? It has a "transforming gimmick" too. Not that it needs one, period. 6) Well, I'm sorry if you don't like it but that's what they're designed for and that's what their going to be used for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHX Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Not really, since those are both VF-0Ds. You really don't get it, do you? Your complaint was that Shin got a Valk that was somehow "unique" becuase he was the hero of the show. Those screengrabs show many other VF-0D's, showing that Shin's valk is completely run-of-the-mill. Cory Holmes = owned I dont think he realizes that theres two cannon fodders in Macross Zero. I mean, the VF-0 was supposed to be rushed into production to fight the SV-51. Like I said before, it's got a helluva lot of support behind it. Not only do they have three seperate styles of fighter, one of them is completely different! VF-0A: (Normal Type) the single pilot cannon fodder VF-0D: (Normal Type) the duel pilot cannon fodder. (Silver ones in the screengrabs) Then theres the other two VF-0 to distinguish the heroes in the battlefield. VF-0S: (Roy Type) single pilot leader with duel head lasers. VF-0D: (Shin Type) duel pilot and blue color scheme. You can find all of this on the Macross Zero site. CoryHolmes, I think the reason why the few of us, including me are irritated by you is because your comments are ignorant and your opinions are biased. You say things that you have no clue what you're talking about and your opinions on Macross could easily be related to Robotech as well. I have no problem liking Robotech at all. I grew up in America and Robotech was what got me into Macross. I dont feel that Robotech is any better than Macross or vice versa. I just personally prefer Macross but imo this has nothing to do with anything in here. I made no effort to "flame" you because you liked Robotech. I was only irritated by your ignorant Macross Zero comments. The quote above is an example of one the many of your ignorant comments. I only bitch about SOME things. Just the details, since I'm a perfectionist by nature. My warning to you just for the future so you dont get flamed, do your research before you decide to start a "discussion". If you want to be a perfectionist about the "details"... first get the details right before you decide to go off to "perfect" them in your own way. I apology for coming off too hard on you. I was having a bad day and I read this thread and I ended up taking it out on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 ...He is just a label whore. Ignore him. Flamebait much? I won't even dignify this (or you) with a response. ... I don't think its possible for me to be more dignified than I already am. And you DID respond to me LOL! Modest too, I see. Its not easy being this great. You don't know how much that makes me laugh - AgentOne, dignity. It's like applying spelling to me...hey waitaminute... Anyway, I did notice something interesting in the comparison between the 0D and 0S, the canards. Can someone who's a good areospace engineer tell me the benefits of those being where they are? They seem to low and too close to the wing to do any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Holme's has been owned, and he ain't coming back! Hooray! Hip, hip, hooray! Wes, I'm sure David can fill us in on it. But here's an educated guess, those canards are for stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Your honor, I move that those screengrabs be stricken from the record, as they totally undercut CoryHolmes' "VF-0D" argument. Not really, since those are both VF-0Ds. You really don't get it, do you? Your complaint was that Shin got a Valk that was somehow "unique" becuase he was the hero of the show. Those screengrabs show many other VF-0D's, showing that Shin's valk is completely run-of-the-mill. Cory Holmes = owned I stand corrected. You're right, I was wrong in that statement. I didn't realize that there were other VF-0Ds. Just out of curiosity, how many VF-0s DID they make? All those VF-1s in Robojunk are milestones ahead of each other, the VF-1S "Skull One" is MILESTONES ahead of the other variants in the craptacular Robojunk. And With tecnical explanations like "Skull one is better than rick hunter veritech because it has more head lasers" how can he lose? Where do you people come UP with this crap? Where is said that the VF-1s in Robotech are different because of styling? 2) Let see, technology gets better and is implemented in the next generation. That computer your using is probably much better than the one you had 10 years ago. What's the problem with implementing new technology? Even Robotech does it. Because where else can the mecha progress to? Look at how insanely powered the Macross Plus (and by extension, the more advanced Macross 7) valks are. What will the next generation be capable of? Self-folding without a booster? Carry 200 micro-missles? Maybe it'll be mounted with a mini-Main Gun. My problem is that there's little room for the mecha to grow without going totally into munchkinism, in my opinion. 3) Whoever said we had to be feasible? Flying transforming robots should be the first indication that we aren't in Kansas anymore. That was in response to another poster on RT.com, who was saying the Alpha's 60 missles was unfeasable, but the Q-Rau and YF-19 were perfectly alright. The context is totally off when that response is viewed without the question. 5) "Transforming gimmick"? Funny, what's that I see at RT? Oh the "Invid Overlord". Guess what? It has a "transforming gimmick" too. Not that it needs one, period. I view the Overlord the same way I do the Koing. Neat, but wholly unneeded and really suplurfluous. They were both designed, "just 'cuz" and have no real in-story need behind them, which is something I don't like. and your opinions on Macross could easily be related to Robotech as well. And I do. I hold Robotech to the same standards I hold Macross to. I am just as critical of (believed) errors in both shows, since I feel that they're capable of being so much more than what they are. Is that so wrong? I was only irritated by your ignorant Macross Zero comments. The quote above is an example of one the many of your ignorant comments. I admit that I was wrong about multiple VF-0Ds, but the rest of my comment stands to reason, I think. For a plane that wasn't supposed to be combat-ready and rushed to become so, there's a heck of a lot of support for them. Armour packs, different gun pod, valk-mounted drones, etc. And it still has the A, D, and S styles, which I find bizzare for a "rush job". If the D-style was meant to be a testbed for a delta-wing style valk, I can go along with that, but I've not seen anything that states as such on any "official" source. I apology for coming off too hard on you. I was having a bad day and I read this thread and I ended up taking it out on you. Bah, no offense taken. This is a conversation, and so far no personal insults have come from you; so no harm, no foul. Holme's has been owned, and he ain't coming back! Hooray! Hip, hip, hooray! No, I've just spent the last 18 hours straight at work, so no time to come here and listen to you spout off about how stupid I am for enjoying Robotech. I come here becaues I greatly enjoy Macross Plus and SDF: Macross. Does that mean I'm not wanted here because I won't toe the Anti-Robotech rhetoric that seems to be in the TOU for these forums? I always thought MacrossWorld was here for discussion of Macross, no matter what the series. If I'm wrong in that regard, let me know now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Where do you people come UP with this crap? Where is said that the VF-1s in Robotech are different because of styling? I've been reading Macross & robotech forums for more years than I care to admit....suffice it to say, that's always been a popular robotech fan opinion, and one thats supported by the extreme lack of technical explanation in robotech in general. Especially pre-HG's attempt to rip-off Macross stats after completely & totally ignoring them for almost 20 decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 TIme for me to chime in. OK. Why there is so many upgrades fo VF-0 if it is just a prototype? Hell who said all of it was even tested? It probably isn't!! IF my military's ass was getting slaughtered by variable fighters, you woulsdn't see me holding back some untested prototype, I'd send them into action! I prety much think they just give the UN spacy all they got because it isn't abot feasibility in macross zero, its SURVIVABILITY. And about the YF-19 being someqghat godlike and experiencing such an advancement over previous VF... OK a step into reality. BAck in the 1950/60's there was a missle called the sparrow. SEmi active radar homing. meaning the plane's radar had to be locked onto the target the whole time in order to guide the missle. little bit afterwards, the phoenix missle was created and it ended up having more than double the range, and it was an ACTIVE radar homer, so it only needed minimal guidance and the plane can target more and shoot simultaneously and break away after a short while. THIs vast VAST improvement only took what less than 10-15 years? So a YF19 able to get into space withjout a booster (unlike the VF-1) does not surprise me. THe engines in the F-22, one of those engines has MORE thrust than 2 GE79 engines in an F-4. F-4 is just 2 generations before the F-22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Where do you people come UP with this crap? Where is said that the VF-1s in Robotech are different because of styling? I've been reading Macross & robotech forums for more years than I care to admit....suffice it to say, that's always been a popular robotech fan opinion, and one thats supported by the extreme lack of technical explanation in robotech in general. Especially pre-HG's attempt to rip-off Macross stats after completely & totally ignoring them for almost 20 decades. Actually, I've seen the Macross forums and tech specs that have said the -1S had improved engines, avionics, etc. over the other two styles. Most of the "official" Robotech stats (and you're right, those are sorely lacking) say they're identical save for the number of headlasers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 WEll the 1S SHOULD be vastly improved over the other variants becayuse... 1-it's reserved for squad leaders. 2-it is made in far less quantity than the others. if it was just a cosmetic change I doubt it would be commissioned over to squad leaders. It cwould be flown by just about anyone regardless if this is robotech or macross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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