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9 hours ago, JB0 said:

Does this mean the FAST packs they tested in Macross Plus(including the cool forearm cannon on the -19) didn't make it to mass-production?

As far as we know?  No.  

 

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

Nevertheless, keep in mind that Super Pack equipped VF-19 and VF-22 appeared in Macross 7.  So, it's likely that development continued on the test packs in M+, it just developed into something different.

When did a VF-22 appear with Super Packs?  It doesn't have any, outside of Master File or that one time Milia stole Sound Boosters designed for a VF-11.

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6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

When did a VF-22 appear with Super Packs?  It doesn't have any, outside of Master File or that one time Milia stole Sound Boosters designed for a VF-11.

If she stole them, how were they mounted on the airframe?  Why didn't they fall off when transforming?  Etc., etc., etc.

The only logical conclusion is that they were designed to be mounted on a VF-22 before being mass produced.

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21 hours ago, sketchley said:

If she stole them, how were they mounted on the airframe?  Why didn't they fall off when transforming?  Etc., etc., etc.

The only logical conclusion is that they were designed to be mounted on a VF-22 before being mass produced.

One possibility is that fastpack hardpoints are standardized, so that they can quickly be switched without modification. A comment was made in Delta where the lil Drakken was able to be attached to a VF-31 with little modification due to standard mountings.

A more drastic example would be Isamus VF-19 using VF-25 fastpacks, in this case some custom work was probably done. A Mayor of a colony could probably afford to have that done as well.

edit; how do I remove previous page tags?

Edited by Bariaburu Faita
typo

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21 hours ago, sketchley said:

The only logical conclusion is that they were designed to be mounted on a VF-22 before being mass produced.

26 minutes ago, Bariaburu Faita said:

One possibility is that fastpack hardpoints are standardized, so that they can quickly be switched without modification.

Really, I think that says all that needs to be said on that score... standardized hardware.  The VF-22 has connection points for things like fold boosters and the like, so it wouldn't be all that surprising if other things could be connected to those stations.

 

27 minutes ago, Bariaburu Faita said:

A more drastic example would be Isamus VF-19 using VF-25 fastpacks, in this case some custom work was probably done. A Mayor of a colony could probably afford to have that done as well.

Yeah, Isamu's VF-19EF/A is a custom job... it probably wasn't in Milia's case, since her swiping those Sound Boosters was a spur of the moment thing when she thought (for rather dumb reasons) that she was dying.

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26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Really, I think that says all that needs to be said on that score... standardized hardware.  The VF-22 has connection points for things like fold boosters and the like, so it wouldn't be all that surprising if other things could be connected to those stations.

Standardized Super Pack mounting points actually reinforces my point: why would the VF-22 have such points?

As far as Fold Boosters go, remember that in the VF-19/VF-22 era, they required a "special equipment hardpoint" exclusive to them.  (We could go down the rabbit-hole of specially made adapters for the Super Packs, but why would those be lying around for Miria to steal, too?)

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27 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

How about the extra parts connected here? 

c1.png

c2.png

Eliminated between the prototype and final production design.

With the exception of the forearm shield, they were basically integrated into the airframe.

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Those came with the Yamato version as well. I always assumed those were the "super parts " for the YF-21. I've always figured that the YF-21 was the epitome of (General Galaxies) answer to the next bad A$$  VF generation. And , therefore, didn't need or require much in the way of enhancing equipment in order to perform a variety of hard man( or women) tasks..

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Cheers for the answers! 

Didn't the 22 internalize the hand gunpods? he leg shields were deeper or something with the gun ports at the front. I may be remembering that wrong...

 

From M3:
"2 x Howard BP-14D multipurpose gun pods OR 2 x Hughes/GE GV-17L new standard internal cartridge-less gatling gun pods featuring retractable grip/stealth covers mounted in 8 x hard point weapon stations (mounted left/right internal ventral fuselage in Fighter mode or inside leg storage bay cover panels and/or manipulators in GERWALK/Battroid modes)"

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5 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Cheers for the answers! 

Didn't the 22 internalize the hand gunpods? he leg shields were deeper or something with the gun ports at the front. I may be remembering that wrong...

Yeah, the VF-22's bay doors basically absorbed the YF-21's FAST Packs... so if you look at the production version's underside you'll see the same gunports present on the YF-21's FAST Pack but built directly into the fighter.

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Hi there. Is there a DYRL expert who could set me straight?

My understanding is at Altira on Earth the Meltrandi attack the SDF-1 and Max and Milia fight to a draw inside the Meltrandi ship. Bodolzaa arrives using the the ancient melody with Minmay humming along as a weapon against the Meltrandi. The Meltrandi ship folds away taking Max and Milia with it. Bodolzaa suggests peace with the SDF-1. The miclones and Bodolzaa align against the Meltrandi. However, Bodolzaa discovers the lyrics are not ready and Minmay is missing and he turns on the miclones and decides to attack the miclones and the Meltrandi. Some Zentreadi perhaps led by Britai stay loyal to the miclones. Somehow Max is on scene and macronized or giant-sized and piloting a Meltrandi mecha. Bodolzaa defeats Lap Lamiz and the miclones, Britai, and Milia defeat Bodolzaa.

1. How did Max and Milia get back to the SDF-1 or Earth after their draw in combat inside the Meltrandi ship?

2. How did Bodolzaa decide he needed the lyrics and a live performance from Minmay to defeat the Meltrandi?

3. Why would Bodolzaa decide to abandon his miclone allies in the face of the Meltrandi?

4. Did some Meltrandi join the miclones? Is that how Max and Milia were allied with the SDF-1? If so, at some point prior to the climactic battle the Zentradi, some Meltrandi, and the miclones were all allies and strategizing to defeat Lap Lamiz?

Are these just run of the mill plot holes? Is this discussed in another thread? Thanks for your help. :)

Edited by Brofessor
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?

Why don't you just import the blu-ray or find an old copy with english-subs to watch so you can answer your own questions?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

Hi there. Is there a DYRL expert who could set me straight?

On MacrossWorld?  I'd hope so.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

My understanding is at Altira on Earth the Meltrandi attack the SDF-1 and Max and Milia fight to a draw inside the Meltrandi ship. Bodolzaa arrives using the the ancient melody with Minmay humming along as a weapon against the Meltrandi. The Meltrandi ship folds away taking Max and Milia with it. Bodolzaa suggests peace with the SDF-1. The miclones and Bodolzaa align against the Meltrandi. However, Bodolzaa discovers the lyrics are not ready and Minmay is missing and he turns on the miclones and decides to attack the miclones and the Meltrandi. Some Zentreadi perhaps led by Britai stay loyal to the miclones. Somehow Max is on scene and macronized or giant-sized and piloting a Meltrandi mecha. Bodolzaa defeats Lap Lamiz and the miclones, Britai, and Milia defeat Bodolzaa.

1 hour ago, treatment said:

Why don't you just import the blu-ray or find an old copy with english-subs to watch so you can answer your own questions?

I'm gonna have to second @treatment and ask if you've possibly considered watching the film?

 

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

1. How did Max and Milia get back to the SDF-1 or Earth after their draw in combat inside the Meltrandi ship?

On Milia's ship... the one that attacked the Macross and which they both boarded during their dogfight.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

2. How did Bodolzaa decide he needed the lyrics and a live performance from Minmay to defeat the Meltrandi?

Boddole Zer straight up answers this question in the movie... Minmay told him the song was missing its lyrics, and he'd seen how effective Minmay's songs were at throwing a scare into his troops and how effective the song without the lyrics was.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

3. Why would Bodolzaa decide to abandon his miclone allies in the face of the Meltrandi?

Because it was only ever an alliance of convenience... the surviving humans had the knowledge of culture to reassemble the music and lyrics into the completed song, which could be used as a weapon against the Meltrandi.  When the Meltrandi arrived before the song was reassembled, he opted to destroy it so it couldn't be used against his own forces if it fell into the Meltrandi's hands.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

4. Did some Meltrandi join the miclones? Is that how Max and Milia were allied with the SDF-1? If so, at some point prior to the climactic battle the Zentradi, some Meltrandi, and the miclones were all allies and strategizing to defeat Lap Lamiz?

No, Minmay's song was what persuaded the Zentradi and Meltrandi on both sides - after the battle had already been underway for a while - to team up to take down Boddole Zer's mobile fortress after he wiped out tens of thousands of his own ships to get a shot on the Laplamiz mobile fortress.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

Are these just run of the mill plot holes? Is this discussed in another thread? Thanks for your help. :)

No, this is all fairly obvious in the film.  It feels like you're basing this on reading a Wikipedia page or the summary on MAHQ.

 

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Hi there. Thanks a lot for your replies. I honestley think you guys are really smart which is why I posted here. I own DYRL and have watched it many times which I guess makes me very ignorant. Lol! It is available for free on youtube as well. Due to the compression of events for an animated film the character motivations are just unseen I suppose.

Is it fair to say Milia's ship captured Max and took him to Meltrandi friendly space when the ship folded out? While there Max seduced the crew similar to Minmay seducing Bodolzaa? At some point Milia's ship returned to miclone friendly space and aligned with Bodolzaa and the miclones? Did others go with Milia and turn against Lap Lamiz prior to the climactic battle? So at this point Max was macronzied and Milia's small fleet was integrated with the miclone military machine prior to the climactic battle? There must have been time allowed to macronize Max and give him a Meltrandi mecha. Another strange alternative is Max defected to Milia's fleet and during the battle the song re-awoke his humanity and he and Milia joined the Miclones against Bodolzaa.

My small assertion is Bodolzaa had already battle tested the melody without the lyrics when he first drove off Milia's ship containing Max. That alone as a weapon seemed powerful enough. If he had a recording to broadcast he could just repeat this on Lap Lamiz. It is just odd he felt he needed the lyrics and a live performance to defeat Lap Lamiz and then was willing to break his alliance with the miclones because the lyrics were not ready and Minmay was missing. Although your point about destroying the song/culture before it fell into Lap Lamiz's hands is well taken. I missed that plot point. Thank you for pointing that out. I guess once Bodolzaa had killed Lap Lamiz he felt he did not need the lyrics or a live performance. However, Bodolzaa made all these decisions prior to killing Lap Lamiz. If his one and only shot had not killed her, he would've been screwed. He died. So, obviously he would've been wiser to stick with the miclones and simply use the melody and someone besides Minmay to hum along with it against Lap Lamiz.

There is also a big assumption inherent in Bodolzaa knowing the "lee-rics" would make the melody much more powerful. Why did he have so much faith in the lyrics if he was ignorant of culture? The miclones convinced him lyrics were a super-weapon? Miclone poets were going to create the lyrics. It was Lisa's chance discovery of "THE" lyrics which enabled such a phenomenal response to occur. Bodolzaa would have had no foreknowledge of any of this. The miclones were going to give him lyrics written by miclone song writers.

I would think Bodolzaa's decision to strike Lap Lamiz, destroy friendly forces, and accept collateral damage is the correct decision when your society is made of clones. I would assume Britai would see the wisdom in this decision except Britai had been contaminated with culture.

I suppose the alliance of the miclones and Bodolzaa was taken by surprise when Lap Lamiz defolded in Earth space. Her presence forced Bodolzaa's hand which forced Britai's decision to stick with the miclones.

All my questions center around a 25 minute portion of the film from 01:15:42 to 1:41:08.

I see a lot of plot holes here. Especially how Max got macronized and got a Meltrandi mecha.

Thanks for all your input and help. :)

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I don't think you actually watched it at all.

You really should stop with your own fan-fiction'ing of DYRL.

It's really bad form and bad taste.

Especially here in MacrossWorld Forum.

 

 

 

 

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It is hard to express my sincerity through text but I am sincere. I really apologize for implying any flaws in something sacred like DYRL. You guys are a tough crowd around here Lol! I suppose my avatars negative rating is not helping. I think I was punished for liking... (whisper) RT. I am trying to understand how Max was macronized and got his Meltrandi mecha and how Milia sided with the miclones. Please see my previous post.

I suspect we are all projecting our knowledge of Episodes 1 to 36 onto DYRL. I have watched DYRL as if I am a first time viewer and there is no motivation for Bodolzaa to withdraw from his alliance with the miclones unless we project his character motivations from SDF Macross onto DYRL. When he discovered the lyrics were not finished and Minmay was missing he could have just called Global and arranged for a new strategy or a Plan B to attack Lap Lamiz. I can only justify Bodolzaa's rashness being due to his assumption the miclones had deceived him so he broke his alliance with them. Villains tend to jump to conclusions so I guess Bodolzaa was just a typical villain. I actually sympathize with Bodolzaa in DYRL. Hikaru seems vicious to shoot him in the face. Moments (hours?) earlier Bodolzaa was their ally. Could Global have arranged for Bodolzaa's surrender? Wasn't Bodolzaa's fleet exposed to culture? Were the miclones so outnumbered they had to destroy the command and control center to save themselves? I feel only the motivations from SDF Macross justify Hikaru's actions in DYRL. The viewing audience had expectations from SDF Macross and the writers for DYRL kind of sleepwalked and went through the motions. The 25 minute section of DYRL I referenced in my previous post has some tiny plot holes if you ignore the SDF Macross episodes. In DYRL Bodolzaa's fleet was exposed to culture. In SDF Macross his fleet folded into Earth space without any exposure. Bodolzaa had to be killed in SDF Macross. I am not so sure in DYRL. They could have resolved their misunderstanding in DYRL.

I really respect and enjoy SDF Macross and DYRL. I mean no offense. Thanks again for all your responses. :)

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2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

Due to the compression of events for an animated film the character motivations are just unseen I suppose.

... given that several of your questions are literally answered by dialog right in the film itself - and not obscure dialog either, but important scenes - we're left to wonder if you really have seen the film.

 

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

Is it fair to say Milia's ship captured Max and took him to Meltrandi friendly space when the ship folded out?

"Captured" is a strong word... that Max was still in the airlock with Milia after fighting to a draw was probably the furthest thing from the crew's minds when they folded away from Earth to avoid imminent obliteration at the hands of the Boddole Zer main fleet.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

While there Max seduced the crew similar to Minmay seducing Bodolzaa? At some point Milia's ship returned to miclone friendly space and aligned with Bodolzaa and the miclones? Did others go with Milia and turn against Lap Lamiz prior to the climactic battle? So at this point Max was macronzied and Milia's small fleet was integrated with the miclone military machine prior to the climactic battle?

... no.  Just no.  And Minmay didn't "seduce" Boddole Zer either.  Boddole Zer interrogated her and Kaifun and discovered, based on prior findings from captured cultural artifacts like the Minmay doll seen earlier in the movie, that she had the necessary knowledge base to interpret the cultural relic he had in his possession (the memory tablet with the sheet music for Do You Remember Love?) which he believed (again, based on the effects her songs had on his troops) that it could be used to defeat the Meltrandi.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

There must have been time allowed to macronize Max and give him a Meltrandi mecha.

As seen on several occasions in Macross, that doesn't take very long.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

Another strange alternative is Max defected to Milia's fleet and during the battle the song re-awoke his humanity and he and Milia joined the Miclones against Bodolzaa.

No.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

My small assertion is Bodolzaa had already battle tested the melody without the lyrics when he first drove off Milia's ship containing Max.

Boddole Zer's own dialog in the film contradicts your assertion.  

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

That alone as a weapon seemed powerful enough. If he had a recording to broadcast he could just repeat this on Lap Lamiz. It is just odd he felt he needed the lyrics and a live performance to defeat Lap Lamiz and then was willing to break his alliance with the miclones because the lyrics were not ready and Minmay was missing.

... he thought he needed the lyrics because his expert - Minmay - told him the song was incomplete without them.  He knew exactly where she was, because his troops were the ones who returned her to the Macross.  There was literally nowhere else for her to go.  He didn't want to unnerve the Meltrandi, he wanted to make them lose their will to fight just like the songs of Minmay had done to his own troops.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

There is also a big assumption inherent in Bodolzaa knowing the "lee-rics" would make the melody much more powerful. Why did he have so much faith in the lyrics if he was ignorant of culture?

*frustratedly gestures at Minmay*

Rocket science this ain't... he literally talks about what he learned from Minmay in the film.  He'd seen what Minmay's song did to the troops under his command who were exposed to a Minmay doll.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

The miclones convinced him lyrics were a super-weapon? Miclone poets were going to create the lyrics. It was Lisa's chance discovery of "THE" lyrics which enabled such a phenomenal response to occur. Bodolzaa would have had no foreknowledge of any of this. The miclones were going to give him lyrics written by miclone song writers.

Boddole Zer thought humans were a leftover enclave of Protoculture... that much is made very clear in the story.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

I would think Bodolzaa's decision to strike Lap Lamiz, destroy friendly forces, and accept collateral damage is the correct decision when your society is made of clones. I would assume Britai would see the wisdom in this decision except Britai had been contaminated with culture.

While the Zentradi have a "we have reserves" mentality for sure, even Boddole Zer's own crew protested the decision to open fire on tens of thousands of his own ships for a shot at destroying the Laplamiz mobile fortress... there's "acceptable losses" and there's "vaporizing a significant chunk of your own fleet needlessly".  He probably could've gotten away with it a lot more readily in the TV series version where his fleet hadn't already taken such a heavy beating in the war, but even the Boddole Zer mobile fortress was in rough shape in the movie.

 

2 hours ago, Brofessor said:

I see a lot of plot holes here. Especially how Max got macronized and got a Meltrandi mecha.

You'd see a lot fewer if you paid attention.

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Thanks for all your responses Seto Kaiba. I am beginning to see the light. I really appreciate it.

Has anyone come to a consensus on how Max was macronized? I propose Max was folded to Meltrandi friendly space while inside the airlock of Milia's ship. I can only assume he was captured at some point. Although I suppose he was Milia's pet or the darling of the crew. Milia must have had a miclone chamber on her ship. Max was macronized. I assume they defected and folded back to Earth prior to Lap Lamiz folding in for the climactic battle. Although, Milia and Max could have arrived with Lap Lamiz and quickly defected to Earth forces.

Does anyone have any ideas on these unseen events involving Max?

Does anyone have a rough timeline for these events? Milia folds away with Max. Boddole Zer has a formal alliance with the miclones. Max is macronized. Lap Lamiz arrives in Earth space. 24 hours? 48 hours? 2 weeks?

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So where exactly is Battle Galaxy located in all of this?

macross-galaxy.jpg

Edited by blackconvoy_D01

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Good question... the Mechanical sheet on Macross Chronicles don't say it (Based on SKETCHLEY excellent translation)

Mechanic-Sheet-09-MF-023.jpg


Mechanic-Sheet-09-MF-024.jpg

 

Maybe they never combine (like Battle Frontier and the Island) and always travel separated.

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2 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

So where exactly is Battle Galaxy located in all of this?

Elsewhere.

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10 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

So where exactly is Battle Galaxy located in all of this?

 

The conclusion that we've pretty much all arrived at is that it doesn't "dock" to the city ship like the New Macross class.

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Can anyone help me out with this? Can someone straighten me out?

My current understanding is in episodes 1 to 36 of SDF Macross the protoculture is the first prototype culture and they created the Zentreadi and the Supervision Army. These forces accidentally killed their creators... the protoculture. In SDF Macross the Zentreadi are male and female but segregated and they are allied against the Supervision Army.

In DYRL on Altira Misa explains there really is no Supervision Army and instead the protoculture themselves split into Zentradi and Meltrandi. The protoculture were miclones but became giants to fight. Some of them realized their error and decided to become miclones again and live in a coed city on Earth. These miclones eventually left Earth and never returned while Zentradi and Meltrandi continued to fight. However, prior to Misa's scene on Altira Bodole Zer stated the creators did not teach the Zentradi about culture but only programmed the Zentradi. The word programming alludes more to the Zentreadi creation story form episodes 1 to 36 relative to Misa's DYRL explanation at Altira

In both versions of events the Zentradi have lost their history and information about their creators or ancestors.

How does the fandom or canon for strict DYRL events reconcile Misa and Bodole Zer's slightly differing explanations?

If the Zentreadi or Supervision Army from episodes 1 to 36 encountered the true protoculture would they recognize their authority and follow chain of command? Did the protoculture intentionally sever ties with these forces and had no intention of ever commanding them? They just told them not to mess with miclones as a small fail safe?

If Misa's DYRL version of Zentradi or Meltrandi encountered true protoculture I suppose all three parties would see each other as traitors but perhaps the coed miclones of Altira would propose peace. If Bodole Zer's DYRL version of Zentradi encountered true protoculture I would think he would follow chain of command and submit to their authority as they are his programmers.

I was thinking Bodole Zer's version of Zentradi (mentioning creators and programming) might cause him to see the human miclones as his authority. If so, in DYRL this would weaken his motivation to break his alliance with the miclones based on his version of history. Has Bodole Zer gone rogue? Is he serving a master?

Episodes 1 to 36 has a more coherent version of male and female Zentreadi being segregated to eliminate culture. Misa's DYRL version is coherent. However, Bodole Zer's version (more credible in-universe than Misa's speculations because he would know better) is not really coherent. If he was programmed, how did he come to see the Meltrandi as enemies? Combining the explanation from episodes 1 to 36 with Bodole Zer's DYRL explanation starts to make more sense. It must be assumed and accepted at some point in DYRL the Zentreadi split into Zentradi and Meltrandi and began fighting each other due to past unseen events. Unless Misa is correct and the protoculture became Zentradi and Meltrandi. In Misa's version there would be no creators or programming.

Would any Zentreadi or Meltrandi ships have accomadations for miclones? Did the protoculture intend on occupying the same space as their giant soldiers or giant versions of themselves? Would the SDF-1 have accommodations for miclones/protoculture? Does the existence of micloning chambers insist on this logical conclusion? If so, in episodes 1 to 36 they did not have any miclone sized clothing for micronized Zentreadi.

Is this covered in another thread? Elsewhere on the internet? Thanks for any help. :)

Edited by Brofessor
grammar

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1 hour ago, sketchley said:

The conclusion that we've pretty much all arrived at is that it doesn't "dock" to the city ship like the New Macross class.

Or that its dock is hidden like the ones on the underside of the City-class.

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So... the "docking" feature it's just convenience? Or there are some reasons for the Battle Class to stay attached to the Colonies when travel together?

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38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

My current understanding is in episodes 1 to 36 of SDF Macross the protoculture is the first prototype culture and they created the Zentreadi and the Supervision Army. These forces accidentally killed their creators... the protoculture. In SDF Macross the Zentreadi are male and female but segregated and they are allied against the Supervision Army.

Sort of... the ancient Protoculture created the Zentradi for proxy warfare, but they didn't (directly) create the Supervision Army.

The female Zentradi were a relatively late creation in the midst of the Protoculture's civil war that preceded the conflict between the Protoculture and the Protodeviln, a response to the Queadluun-series battle suits exceeding the endurance and piloting abilities of the existing Zentradi soldiers.  Rather than water the Queadluun-series down, they simply built a better grade of pilot to match the standout performance of the Queadluuns.

The Supervision Army was created by the Protodeviln, using the Protoculture and Zentradi they captured, spiritia-drained, and brainwashed on the planets they captured.  This was elaborated on in considerable depth in Macross 7, when the Protodeviln were accidentally released on the galaxy again and used the captured inhabitants of the Varauta system as soldiers after spiritia-draining and brainwashing them.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

In DYRL on Altira Misa explains there really is no Supervision Army and instead the protoculture themselves split into Zentradi and Meltrandi. The protoculture were miclones but became giants to fight. Some of them realized their error and decided to become miclones again and live in a coed city on Earth. These miclones eventually left Earth and never returned while Zentradi and Meltrandi continued to fight. However, prior to Misa's scene on Altira Bodole Zer stated the creators did not teach the Zentradi about culture but only programmed the Zentradi. The word programming alludes more to the Zentreadi creation story form episodes 1 to 36 relative to Misa's DYRL explanation at Altira

You might want to go back and rewatch that scene with Misa, because that's not what she says.

After the ancient Protoculture developed the cloning technology that enabled them to reproduce asexually and the schism between male and female in their society heated up to the point of unresolvable hostility, the men and women of the Protoculture created armies of giant clone soldiers in their own image to do their fighting for them.  The Protoculture were miclones, and the Zentradi and Meltrandi were giant, purpose-engineered clone soldiers derived from the Protoculture's genetic code just as they were in the TV series.  As in the TV series, the clone armies were forbidden to interfere with miclones and forbidden anything related to culture to prevent them from losing combat effectiveness thinking about things outside their role.

With anyone able to order either side's clone army to stand down and the destruction escalating out of control, the surviving Protoculture fled their collapsing civilization and made the attempt to start over elsewhere in the galaxy as a mixed-gender society.  Earth was one such location, though the Protoculture colony there had to flee the planet and bury their city as the conflict between the Zentradi and Meltrandi expanded into that region of the galaxy.

(Macross II: Lovers Again strongly implies the Mardook are the descendants of a group of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization and were forced into a nomadic fleet-based existence to avoid the ever-moving fronts of the war between the Zentradi and Meltrandi.)

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

In both versions of events the Zentradi have lost their history and information about their creators or ancestors.

Well, parts of it... they were forbidden to possess anything related to culture, so their historical information is mostly related to dry facts, military history, and records of old standing orders like "Don't interfere with miclone planets" and "Culture is bad for Zentradi".

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

If the Zentreadi or Supervision Army from episodes 1 to 36 encountered the true protoculture would they recognize their authority and follow of chain of command? Did the protoculture intentionally sever ties with these forces and had no intention of ever commanding them? They just told them not to mess with miclones as a small fail safe?

Hard to say... the Protoculture had to rescind the Zentradi's prime directive to not interfere with the Protoculture in order for them to effectively fight the Supervision Army, and the damage to their civilization was so massive that attempts to reinstate the directive after the Protodeviln were sealed were ineffective.  Some fleets might honor a properly authentic order from a Protoculture source, others might not.  Rescinding that directive was the only way for the Zentradi forces to properly fight the Supervision Army, given that its soldiers were a mix of brainwashed Protoculture and Zentradi who had been captured by the Protodeviln.

The Protoculture didn't intentionally let the Zentradi slip the leash, but their civilization took such a beating in the war against the Protodeviln and their Supervision Army that over 85% of their population was exterminated before the war was even a year old.  Due to breakdowns in the chain of command caused by such massive loss of life, attempts by those remaining Protoculture to reinstate the Zentradi's prime directives were ineffective and eventually the Protoculture disappeared and the Zentradi were left to their own devices and continued following the last authenticated orders they had... search out and destroy the Supervision Army.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

If Misa's DYRL version of Zentradi or Meltrandi encountered true protoculture I suppose all three parties would see each other as traitors but perhaps the coed miclones of Altira would propose peace. If Bodole Zer's DYRL version of Zentradi encountered true protoculture I would think he would follow chain of command and submit to their authority as they are his programmers.

I was thinking Bodole Zer's version of Zentradi (mentioning creators and programming) might cause him to see the human miclones as his authority. If so, in DYRL this would weaken his motivation to break his alliance with the miclones based on his version of history. Has Bodole Zer gone rogue? Is he serving a master?

The question is more one of whether anyone in the Protoculture population had sufficient authority to order the Zentradi or Meltrandi to stand down... which would be why they left instead of simply ordering the forces fighting near Earth to bugger off.  It's not like Joe or Jane Average off the street can walk up to a four star general and ask him to kindly take his (or her) war elsewhere with every expectation of being obeyed.

Oddly, it seems to have never occurred to the Protoculture to rob their clone soldiers of the will to fight via culture shock... except for the Mardook, who came up with a way to use songs as battle drugs to control the fighting instincts of the Zentradi and Meltrandi.

How effective the command to leave miclones/Protoculture alone remains seems to vary fleet-to-fleet in either setting.  Macross II's timeline has several good examples of fleets that actually DID respect those orders once they had a decent suspicion what they were dealing with, like the Leplendis fleet in Macross: Eternal Love Song, who initially chased a Zentradi main fleet into the Sol system but left after their surveys of Earth suggested the populace was Protoculture.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

Would any Zentreadi or Meltrandi ships have accomadations for miclones?

The Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class mothership in the TV series is noted in Macross Chronicle to have had accommodations for Protoculture miclones... a 250 square kilometer parkland that recreates the conditions of the Protoculture homeworld, for one.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

Would the SDF-1 have accommodations for miclones/protoculture?

The Macross was originally a Supervision Army ship in the TV series version, so probably... given that the Supervision Army was a mix of Protoculture and Zentradi who were captured, spiritia-drained, and brainwashed.

The DYRL? version was a Meltrandi ship, and they were exclusively giants, so probably not.

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8 minutes ago, Gerli said:

So... the "docking" feature it's just convenience? Or there are some reasons for the Battle Class to stay attached to the Colonies when travel together?

It's convenient, but the Battle-class also serves as a bridge/control center for the docked emigrant ship while they're docked and they can share each other's power sources and have their fold systems networked together.

Battle Galaxy is simply elsewhere during the events of Macross Frontier, so we don't know if it normally stays docked to the Mainland or not.

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Wow. Thanks again Seto Kaiba. You are a very helpful and valuable resource. Do you feel confident this canon is recorded somewhere on the internet? It should really be archived somewhere or accessible for easy reading and comprehension.

Do you speak Japanese Seto Kaiba? I only speak English and read the subtitles. DYRL might have slight translation differences. I feel Misa says the Protoculture from DYRL became giant Zentradi and Meltrandi in the subtitles.

I suppose there is a canon to each series and then a broad overarching canon which fits them all together as well as a fanon or fandom. Each series is an in-universe fictional retelling of in-universe historical events. Therefore, all these canon's won't fit together perfectly. Is there a canon (history) for the non-fictional in-universe events? I assume the Protoculture split into male and female sides first. Next, there was a civil war inside the Protoculture society. The male Protoculture society used proxy male Zentradi and the female Protoculture society also used proxy male Zentreadi? Then each side also got Meltrandi warriors as well?

Did the civil war involve male Protoculture versus female Protoculture? Or did a gender segregated but united coalition of Protoculture have a conflict with another gender segregated but united coalition of Protoculture?

Were the Zentradi first created for defense, exploration, and intergalactic war or for the male society of Protoculture and the female society of Protoculture to attack each other?

Is the civil war of the Protocultue the same war as the conflict between male and female Protoculture?

:)

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's convenient, but the Battle-class also serves as a bridge/control center for the docked emigrant ship while they're docked and they can share each other's power sources and have their fold systems networked together.

Battle Galaxy is simply elsewhere during the events of Macross Frontier, so we don't know if it normally stays docked to the Mainland or not.

It could be worst...It could be how Macross Elysion haphazardly connected to that City-class. :blink::p

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1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

Wow. Thanks again Seto Kaiba. You are a very helpful and valuable resource. Do you feel confident this canon is recorded somewhere on the internet? It should really be archived somewhere or accessible for easy reading and comprehension.

A fair amount of this is available in the artbooks that are fairly easy to get 'hold of... @sketchley and @Gubaba are both excellent resources with their own websites showcasing their translations, and I'll be launching a new site of my own collating all of my own work in the near future.

 

1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

Do you speak Japanese Seto Kaiba? I only speak English and read the subtitles. DYRL might have slight translation differences. I feel Misa says the Protoculture from DYRL became giant Zentradi and Meltrandi in the subtitles.

Enough to get by, though my vocabulary is horribly lopsided.  (I could probably get decent marks in a class on nuclear physics, but don't ask me to teach a philosophy class or direct a light opera...)

One of the problems with fansubs is the generally iffy quality depending on which group and how fast they were working.  Plenty of them mistranslate the rank system used by the Spacy, get names and terms wrong, etc.  The worst I've ever seen was a very old Macross 7 fansub that insistently translated "Planet Dance" as "Perry Stands" for fairly half the show.:rofl:

 

1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

I suppose there is a canon to each series and then a broad overarching canon which fits them all together as well as a fanon or fandom.

Kawamori's attitude is more that each series is an island unto itself, joined by only a "broad strokes" shared history.  Some Macross publications, especially manga and novels, take a somewhat firmer attitude towards continuity but not by THAT much.

On occasion, he's explained this attitude as seeing each Macross animated feature as a dramatization of a "true" Macross history. 

Basically, "canon" is a dirty word to Macross's creators. 

(DYRL?'s official status within the main Macross continuity is that of an in-universe film released in 2031.)

 

1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

Each series is an in-universe fictional retelling of in-universe historical events. Therefore, all these canon's won't fit together perfectly. Is there a canon (history) for the non-fictional in-universe events? I assume the Protoculture split into male and female sides first. Next, there was a civil war inside the Protoculture society. The male Protoculture society used proxy male Zentradi and the female Protoculture society also used proxy male Zentreadi? Then each side also got Meltrandi warriors as well?

Nah, it varies depending on the version of the story.

DYRL? is treated in-universe as being (mostly) a historical docu-drama that was done for propaganda purposes on top of entertainment, to underscore the reality of the ongoing and serious threat the Zentradi pose.  (Since the New UN Forces hadn't encountered the Supervision Army, the Meltrandi became a stand-in for them.)

In the main/ongoing broad strokes continuity described by Macross PlusMacross 7Macross ZeroMacross Frontier, and Macross Delta, the Protoculture's split appears to have been along political lines (in what feels like a vague cold war allegory) with the female Zentradi being the aforementioned "better pilot" designed for the Zentradi forces to handle the Queadluun-Rau.

Macross II: Lovers Again's parallel world continuity takes DYRL? as the more accurate of the two versions, so in that version they have separate Zentradi and Meltrandi forces who were created by the separate gender-factions of the Protoculture.

Kawamori and co. seem to like the DYRL? designs more than the TV ones, so the DYRL? designs for a lot of Zentradi hardware replaced the TV ones in future works, so the female Zentradi who appear in Macross 7 (which treats the TV series as the more accurate) use Meltrandi ship designs and uniforms despite being treated as basically Zentradi special forces.

 

1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

Were the Zentradi first created for defense, exploration, and intergalactic war or for the male society of Protoculture and the female society of Protoculture to attack each other?

In the TV version, the Zentradi were created for proxy warfare before the Protoculture began using fold navigation on a large scale... for war against what, we don't know.

In the DYRL? version, the Protoculture created their giant clone armies for war against each other after their society split up into a purely male one and purely female one.

Trying to equate the DYRL? and TV versions to each other is kind of a lose cause... they're two radically different takes on the Protoculture and backstory.

 

1 minute ago, Brofessor said:

Is the civil war of the Protocultue the same war as the conflict between male and female Protoculture?

:)

Well, yes and no.

DYRL? doesn't mention any other internal conflict in the Protoculture's civilization, but the war between the men and women in that version is very different from the Protoculture's civil war/Stellar Republic dissolution conflict/schism war from the TV version.

The TV version of events basically has two wars back to back, one being a civil war fought within the Protoculture's Stellar Republic along political lines that flared up as the Stellar Republic overexpanded across the galaxy that didn't really have any significant consequences for the Protoculture that we know of, and then the war with the Protodeviln wherein both sides banded together against the Supervision Army and 85% of the Protoculture population was wiped out.

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Just now, azrael said:

It could be worst...It could be how Macross Elysion haphazardly connected to that City-class. :)

What, you didn't enjoy seeing the Elysion dry-hump a reused Island-1?

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3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What, you didn't enjoy seeing the Elysion dry-hump a reused Island-1?

Not my kind of thing but hey... I don't judge... fanservice is fanservice...

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On 9/17/2019 at 9:28 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Battle Galaxy is simply elsewhere during the events of Macross Frontier, so we don't know if it normally stays docked to the Mainland or not.

Related question, What actually happened to the Civilian population of the Galaxy fleet?

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1 hour ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

Does Kawamori have a least favorite valkyrie, and if so; which one?

I don't recall him mentioning anything like that in anything I've read... @Tochiro would probably know, if anyone would.

 

41 minutes ago, anime52k8 said:

Related question, What actually happened to the Civilian population of the Galaxy fleet?

They're still aboard Mainland for the most part, and its accompanying logistical support ships.  (Macross the Ride indicated that the Macross Galaxy was accompanied by the same type of support ships seen in Macross 7, albeit ones modified to improve the efficiency of the fleet overall by producing artificial foodstuffs instead of natural ones.)

The population is predominantly cyborgs, who are living in the fleet's augmented reality network environment.  In practice, they're living everyday with a mild case of mind control as their perceptions are manipulated and filtered to make living in Galaxy a more pleasant experience than it would otherwise be given the fleet's rather dystopian, utilitarian style.  TVTropes would describe their situation as being trapped in a Lotus-Eater Machine.  It's not clear if the average joe there is full-on cyborg hive mind once things started heating up with the Vajra or if they're just living their lives in AR blissfully ignorant of what the fleet is doing because the company controls the network and therefore their perceptions of reality.

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