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Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST


azrael
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The whole discussion regarding the VF armor strength is where this breaks down for me. If the damn valks are so strong, how is it that they can be damaged with mere projectiles and missiles at all? You have these uber strong aircraft almost super aircraft that somehow are able to be damaged. THAT is where the bad writing is as far as I am concerned. Where is the peril? Where is risk? Why should we care if there is little risk to our heroes? Frontier presented this risk so much better than Delta has with adversaries far superior to our heroes' equipment AND they were adaptive.

Well that's because the weaponry advanced the same as the armor. It's classic escalation, enemy has bronze armor, you get iron swords. They invent guns, you develope Kevlar. VFs have ECA which makes them nearly invulnerable to modern bullets and missiles but that isn't what they are firing. They're gunpods have anti-ECA rounds though designed to fight that. The missiles are stronger too, and beam weapons are of course a higher class.

There is still danger despite ECA, it is just not the same danger as things face with modern technology.

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The whole discussion regarding the VF armor strength is where this breaks down for me. If the damn valks are so strong, how is it that they can be damaged with mere projectiles and missiles at all? You have these uber strong aircraft almost super aircraft that somehow are able to be damaged. THAT is where the bad writing is as far as I am concerned. Where is the peril? Where is risk? Why should we care if there is little risk to our heroes? Frontier presented this risk so much better than Delta has with adversaries far superior to our heroes' equipment AND they were adaptive.

I feel that is where one of the principal frustrations come from. When the Windies own Xaos it turns out they are better flyers and fighter pilots and the fact that the aircraft are uber, makes the dog fights a visual dance and not really a fight with consequences. I suspect they tried to present some peril by having the Windies being better pilots than the heroes, but the nullifying effect of uber aircraft muted the danger all together. To counter this, a "fold resonance" field has to be invented to create an artificial advantage.

Cheyenne destroids "should" be a useful part of an arsenal. They aren't the hero units, but certainly should have some role in the combined assets of any force and more than mere AA. As already pointed out, the PC felt the Zentradi needed ground attack units, so then there must have been a reason.

This penchant for making each generation of fighter superior beyond any reasonable margin is an escalation that cannot be sustained in any dramatic sense. This further supports Seto's comparison between Kawamori and Roddenberry.

The tech advancement is fine space war one stuff vs delta stuff is like comparing WW1 stuff to modern equipment. Destroids are obsolete because most of your defensive strength comes from your power supply so to have as much defence and firepower you need the same engines and so might as well spend the 30% pre whatever more and have the mobility or the VF.
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The whole discussion regarding the VF armor strength is where this breaks down for me. If the damn valks are so strong, how is it that they can be damaged with mere projectiles and missiles at all? You have these uber strong aircraft almost super aircraft that somehow are able to be damaged. THAT is where the bad writing is as far as I am concerned. Where is the peril? Where is risk?

Because the development of weapons has kept pace or exceeded the pace of development for armor.

Yes, these VFs have incredibly heavy armor that protect them from the kind of firepower that would turn the best modern main battle tank into so much metal confetti... but the weapons being thrown around are equally crazy. Gunpods in Macross aren't firing anything as prosaic as depleted uranium or AHEAD rounds (except the GPU-9, which only had to contend with armor as tough as an ordinary MBT). They're firing special armor-piercing explosive shells made to penetrate that ultra-tough energy conversion armor, containing OTM explosives that deliver ten times or better the energy than modern equivalents. Or other guns are emitting lasers, particle beams, superdense fusion plasmas, or extra-dimensional matter of impossible mass with ratings in the tens or hundreds of megawatts. Armor-grade steel will burn like paper at a fraction of the energy involved here.

To really put it into perspective... a one second burst from a GU-11A gunpod will convey just shy of 11 times the kinetic energy that the DARPA railguns convey with a single shot, and it's one of the lightest gunpods in the whole Macross setting. Delta gave a pretty good example of how killy guns have become in Ep23. When Theo (or Xao?) fires at the main trio to stop them from escaping, he gouges a circle of holes around them... with each hole being several feet across. He did that with hypervelocity shells fired from a railgun... the shells are 25-27mm-class. That's how powerful these guns are. A 25mm chunk of metal hit the ground so hard it made a crater a couple feet deep in hard winter soil... and that is their LIGHT weapon. Small wonder that same kind of shell made Messer soup even after losing most of its energy penetrating the armored canopy.

The "threat", as you put it, is that these VFs are firing at each other using weapons that more than capable of destroying a VF with their capabilities... and/or inflicting significant harm on a heavily-armored warship.

I feel that is where one of the principal frustrations come from. When the Windies own Xaos it turns out they are better flyers and fighter pilots and the fact that the aircraft are uber, makes the dog fights a visual dance and not really a fight with consequences.

Well... you're not wrong that there's bad writing involved, but you arguably ARE wrong about where that bad writing is in play.

The problem with Macross Delta's dogfights is that, with one exception, they've been entirely between two squads of named, main characters. There are no grunts in play on those occasions, or the grunts are elsewhere, so there's two sides with equal levels of plot armor facing off with the inevitable lack of any real consequences. The writers don't want to kill main characters off, but they also don't want to include redshirts the way previous Macross titles did. The "wind riding" thing can be done by both sides, so it doesn't help matters... it just makes the inevitable draw a little more impressive to look at.

Cheyenne destroids "should" be a useful part of an arsenal. They aren't the hero units, but certainly should have some role in the combined assets of any force and more than mere AA. As already pointed out, the PC felt the Zentradi needed ground attack units, so then there must have been a reason.

Why? It was an article of faith long before Frontier and Delta came out that destroids were an idea that didn't really fit the realities of the battlefield. Mobility is king, and destroids are by their very nature an insufficiently mobile platform.

Even Frontier noted the Cheyenne IIs were basically useless and only included because of the specialist needs of the Island Cluster-class ship and SMS's Macross Quarter. They should not have been on Al Shahal, due to the general lack of an advantage for having them there.

The Zentradi had ground forces because the Zentradi equipment was originally designed for providing defense for the Protoculture's settlements and also to fight wars over territory like the Schism War that damn near ended the whole Stellar Republic. Their equipment was still designed mainly for wars in space, but they had ground capabilities for those occasions where land warfare would be necessary... just like a Valkyrie's battroid mode.

I'm afraid yes.

I wasn't aware of the abbreviation until I took that to Google, so I learned something. :)

That's funny, because I recall most of its appearances inside domes, except for Macross Attack and final battle. But surely it is me who is mistaken.

Its appearances were relatively few, but it's worth noting that we shouldn't assume that the small slice of its operation in the show is a representative sample of its normal usage. (The same can fairly be said of almost any mecha the series presents, given how mind-bogglingly huge the Macross setting has become.)

We don't see them at all until the battle is already joined... they're never shown on station in peacetime inside the domes, unless you count the special parade duty they pulled in the series, where their cannons were replaced with special gear for firing ceremonial salutes.

In the course of this somewhat pointless (but insightful) discussion, I noticed no fixed weapon placements would do any good inside domes, as city blocks would create countless blind spots. A mobile weapon platform is needed.

To be fair, the same problem will exist for destroids or even battroids if they don't maneuver... and the Battroid has a much greater freedom of maneuvering in that kind of environment, as they're not constrained by the street plan and can maneuver over it or even use it to their advantage (e.g. the VF-1As shown taking cover behind a building during the initial battle against the Zentradi).
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While checking Seto's web, I noticed a particular trend. The GU-11 was made to deliver the greatest amount of firepower in the shortest amount of time. Was made to defeat the *unknown*. Since then, grunt mecha has used slimmer caliber munitions, while maintaining or slightly improving lethality by increasing speed and refining OTM use. To stay on the safe side, SpecOps mecha used larger calibers, with some having heavier munitions than the GU-11. That trend was interrupted when facing the Vajra, where caliber almost reached VA-3 levels and then jumped beyond, to MDE technology. I would have liked to see a VF-31 AVPAGC/MEDC30-EX-A backpod equivalent (it would also have made Gerwalk mode somewhat Glaug-like). Alas, not even for selling more toys.

[Errata]: Where 'slightly improving' is written, it must be taken into account VF armor has never ceased to increase, and such 'slight improvements' should be great enough to cope. To the point where larger calibers would be overkill. As intended against the Vajra.

That, in turn, means weapon technology increased way faster than even armor technology did, or they would have kept the 55mm caliber or even increased it. VA-3 60mm may, or may not, be an exception to the norm for a very short window of time. Most probably it was made to cope with underwater engagements.

Edited by Aries Turner
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While checking Seto's web, I noticed a particular trend.

Just a point of order, the Macross Mecha Manual is Mr March's project. I provide all manner of logistical support for it, like importing and translating art books and providing the webhosting services, but his is the orchestrating intent and artistic talent that makes the site what it is.

The GU-11 was made to deliver the greatest amount of firepower in the shortest amount of time. Was made to defeat the *unknown*.

Well... sort of. At least initially, gunpod firepower was calibrated on the sort of organic mental process of "I know I can make armor of X strength, therefore I need to develop weapons capable of piercing armor that strong in case I meet an enemy as well-armored as I know I can be."

The GPU-9 35mm gunpod was built with the expectation of defeating energy conversion armor as strong as a VF-0's. The GU-11A did much the same thing, intending to defeat an enemy with an armor strength comparable to the VF-1's energy conversion armor... which turned out to be in the ballpark for Zentradi Army's Esbeliben Regult. After the war, they could calibrate their expectations against practical knowledge of Zentradi capabilities, and focus on optimizing a gunpod's other attributes like operational endurance.

Overall, the rate of fire actually went down between the GPU-9 and GU-11... by about 50%.

To stay on the safe side, SpecOps mecha used larger calibers, with some having heavier munitions than the GU-11.

That may have had something to do with the increasing incidence of having to fight terrorists and other anti-government forces who were equipped with Valkyries of their own... since armor strength on VFs didn't stay static after the First Space War.

I would have liked to see a VF-31 AVPAGC/MEDC30-EX-A backpod equivalent (it would also have made Gerwalk mode somewhat Glaug-like).

Given the design of the VF-31's ordinance container system, we kind of have... the VF-31's using a heavy quantum beam gunpod, which could be upgraded to MDE spec fairly easily.
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Just a point of order, the Macross Mecha Manual is Mr March's project. I provide all manner of logistical support for it, like importing and translating art books and providing the webhosting services, but his is the orchestrating intent and artistic talent that makes the site what it is.

Sorry, my wrong.

armor strength on VFs didn't stay static after the First Space War.

I thought the errata addressed the apparent issue. I should also have changed "greatest amount of firepower" for "greatest amount of Kjoules", as I was not really talking about rate of fire.

Given the design of the VF-31's ordinance container system, we kind of have... the VF-31's using a heavy quantum beam gunpod, which could be upgraded to MDE spec fairly easily.

I was expecting a big friggin' gun, SV-262 style, with the container, a large battery, parallel to airflow when pointing forwards after a 180 degree rotation both in vertical and horizontal axis between fighter and Gerwalk. We have seen a propeller VF-25 in non-canon Master Files: one can still dream. Edited by Aries Turner
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I was expecting a big friggin' gun, SV-262 style, with the container, a large battery, parallel to airflow when pointing forwards after a 180 degree rotation both in vertical and horizontal axis between fighter and Gerwalk. We have seen a propeller VF-25 in non-canon Master Files: one can still dream.

Not sure why they'd need a battery, since the fighter's two reactors should be more than equal to the task of powering the gun... but what you've described is pretty much what deploying the ordinance container gets you in GERWALK mode apart from the size issue.

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Not sure why they'd need a battery, since the fighter's two reactors should be more than equal to the task of powering the gun... but what you've described is pretty much what deploying the ordinance container gets you in GERWALK mode apart from the size issue.

Well with how fast weapon tech is advancing I wonder what a state of the art gunpod the size of of the VF-27's would be capable of now?

I kinda want to see a return of a giant shell firing gunpod like the one Kinryu used with his armored VF-11.

I think the issue with Delta valks, as cool and awesome as all their integrated weapons are, is the lack in the accessories department and the accessories they do have are only seen at most twice more in passing in the whole series.

A Full Armored 262 would be pretty cool to see even if it was the more traditional B mode only affair though I guess it would defeat the purpose of playing in the anti-VF VF role.

Oh and I know this is off the current topic a little but what was the purpose of having normal air-breathing jet engines in conjunction with reaction engines on the ES-11D Cat's Eye?

Since it had two reaction engines wouldn't it be more efficient to just run on that all the time instead of switching to a gas guzzling normal turbine for in atmosphere use? And those normal jets would just be dead weight in space.

Edited by ManhattanProject972
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Oh and I know this is off the current topic a little but what was the purpose of having normal air-breathing jet engines in conjunction with reaction engines on the ES-11D Cat's Eye?

Since it had two reaction engines wouldn't it be more efficient to just run on that all the time instead of switching to a gas guzzling normal turbine for in atmosphere use? And those normal jets would just be dead weight in space.

I doubt that is accurate, more likely they have reaction engines that are air breathing in atmosphere and pure reaction in space, which is exactly the same thing the VFs do. I suspect you misunderstood the meaning of air-breathing. It doesn't mean it is a conventional jet engine that using jet fuel but it means it literally takes in air and uses that for propulsion (via heating it to plasma with the thermonuclear fusion reactors in the engines). In space the reactors just push out direct plasma in large quantities instead since there is no air to use (which is massively inefficient and wasteful but the UNS/NUNS has a surplus on power generation capability, in other words "Screw the rules, we have power!")

EDIT: Looking at M3, I can see why it is confusing, and perhaps possible I might even be wrong here. Welp... Seto?

Edited by Master Dex
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I doubt that is accurate, more likely they have reaction engines that are air breathing in atmosphere and pure reaction in space, which is exactly the same thing the VFs do. I suspect you misunderstood the meaning of air-breathing. It doesn't mean it is a conventional jet engine that using jet fuel but it means it literally takes in air and uses that for propulsion (via heating it to plasma with the thermonuclear fusion reactors in the engines). In space the reactors just push out direct plasma in large quantities instead since there is no air to use (which is massively inefficient and wasteful but the UNS/NUNS has a surplus on power generation capability, in other words "Screw the rules, we have power!")

EDIT: Looking at M3, I can see why it is confusing, and perhaps possible I might even be wrong here. Welp... Seto?

Looking at various line art and models of the Cat's Eye and from what it says on macross2.net the ES-11 does indeed have two pairs of engines. Two normal Air-breathing, located on the rear fuselage, its hidden somewhat by its radar dish in a lot of line art pics the exhaust ports are right on the sides of the tail with its intakes directly under its radome.

And its two reaction engines mounted in the wings.

Edited by ManhattanProject972
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Looking at various line art and models of the Cat's Eye and from what it says on macross2.net the ES-11 does indeed have two pairs of engines. Two normal Air-breathing, located on the rear fuselage, its hidden somewhat by its radar dish in a lot of line art pics the exhaust ports are right on the sides of the tail with its intakes directly under its radome.

And its two reaction engines mounted in the wings.

Yeah my first answer was before double checking it on M3.. but now I am not so sure. It really doesn't make sense for it to have conventional engines in it when it also has reaction engines, which can be throttled down so as not to produce too much thrust if that is the concern for the Cat's Eye. I am a little unsure why they would do this.

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Maybe the Cat's Eye is an early design, and the nuclear engines of the period needed some sort of augmentation for atmospheric propulsion? Or there may have been undesirable EM interference between the era's high-performance reactors and the Cat's Eye's sensor suite?

I dunno, I'm just throwin' ideas out.

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Maybe the Cat's Eye is an early design, and the nuclear engines of the period needed some sort of augmentation for atmospheric propulsion? Or there may have been undesirable EM interference between the era's high-performance reactors and the Cat's Eye's sensor suite?

I dunno, I'm just throwin' ideas out.

Fair suggestions, but speculation ultimately. I'd be willing to bet considering the wealth of information on other things that there is probably a reasoning behind this somewhere (after all, they bothered to go out of their way to say it has two engine types on it).

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Actually i think the real problem other than bad writing,is that the Delta VF-31 is not the most versatile 5th generation fighter,and even though if it has tons of equipment like the VF-25,i don't think Xaos will use it to full potential either and the SV-262 main concept is anti-VF role,but the VF-171 still manage to shot it down.Regarding the full-armored,i think maybe because the Heavy Quantum beam gunpod could shoot right through it? Because of that maybe it is not widely use?(need Seto help)or maybe the show just want to focus more at the Walkure?

Edited by Vernon
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Well with how fast weapon tech is advancing I wonder what a state of the art gunpod the size of of the VF-27's would be capable of now?

It hasn't been that allfired long since the VF-27's gunpod was introduced... so I imagine there wouldn't be a heck of a lot of difference unless they cut the fire rate to make the individual hits bigger.

A Full Armored 262 would be pretty cool to see even if it was the more traditional B mode only affair though I guess it would defeat the purpose of playing in the anti-VF VF role.

It'd be interesting, but I can't help but think it'd be inconsistent with the Aerial Knights' mobility-oriented tactical ethos.

Oh and I know this is off the current topic a little but what was the purpose of having normal air-breathing jet engines in conjunction with reaction engines on the ES-11D Cat's Eye?

Since it had two reaction engines wouldn't it be more efficient to just run on that all the time instead of switching to a gas guzzling normal turbine for in atmosphere use? And those normal jets would just be dead weight in space.

This may be another article that's overdue for an update with Macross Chronicle trivia...

Based on what's said on the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet for the aircraft, it sounds more like the ES-11D has a pair of normal jet engines and a pair of what are probably rocket motors with integral propellant tanks out on the wings. It only actually refers to them as a "space propulsion system". I'll have to do some digging in older art books, but I don't recall the engine pods ever being labeled outside of a tiny and quite illegible label in Entertainment Bible 27 and Entertainment Bible 51.

Maybe the Cat's Eye is an early design, and the nuclear engines of the period needed some sort of augmentation for atmospheric propulsion? Or there may have been undesirable EM interference between the era's high-performance reactors and the Cat's Eye's sensor suite?

Well, the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet is worded vaguely enough that it could be interpreted to mean that... and Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 does outright state that the ES-11 had to be converted for space use (and that the space conversion was unique to the SDF-1's lot).

Actually i think the real problem other than bad writing,is that the Delta VF-31 is not the most versatile 5th generation fighter,and even though if it has tons of equipment like the VF-25,i don't think Xaos will use it to full potential either and the SV-262 main concept is anti-VF role,but the VF-171 still manage to shot it down.Regarding the full-armored,i think maybe because the Heavy Quantum beam gunpod could shoot right through it? Because of that maybe it is not widely use?(need Seto help)or maybe the show just want to focus more at the Walkure?

Well... that's debatable. Theoretically, the VF-31 should be every bit as versatile as the VF-25 or any other main fighter, considering the ordinance container system developed by Major Blanchett of SMS lets the fighter swap the "built-in" weapons hardware as easily as it would a FAST pack. In some cases, like Chuck Mustang's VF-31E, the ordinance container is clearly subbing for systems that would ordinarily have been the exclusive territory of FAST packs. I do agree Xaos isn't using it to anywhere near its full potential though.

As far as the Sv-262s getting shot down by Nightmare Pluses, it's good to remember that Windermere's forces are few and relatively green. They're a hick backwater that's massively underdeveloped because of the fold faults surrounding Windermere IV, and apart from their war of independence against the New UN Government their only real combat experience prior to this new declaration of war was helping the NUNS repel a Zentradi invasion. Training counts for at least as much, if not more, than raw specs... and without King Ketchup's fold songs boosting their abilities to the realm of "bullet time superman" and crippling their opposition, they don't seem to be all that uber a fighting force. Considering they've basically cheated their way to occupying all of Brisingr, they were probably quite arrogant. "Pride cometh before the fall", and all that.

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[Oops]: Missed Seto's post. There is more data about the ES-11D origins. That makes my assumptions on it wrong, except where it doesn't contradict existing canon (which however may contradict future published canon). I am still leaving the paragraph there: it may or may not be helpful. For the SDF-1 it was indeed an off-the-self option, as they had no options.

Well with how fast weapon tech is advancing I wonder what a state of the art gunpod the size of of the VF-27's would be capable of now?

I kinda want to see a return of a giant shell firing gunpod like the one Kinryu used with his armored VF-11.

VF are gaining a real ship killer role. Ship armor seems to have not advanced enough. In fact, all points about weapon tech advancing faster than armor tech, to the point of reducing weapons in size for the same effect, instead of maintaining weapon size for overkill destruction capability. I was concerned, however, with VF-31 engines not generating as much power as YF-30 or YF-29 ones. Or VF-27 totals. A battery or capacitor, as in VF-171EX, should be helpful.

[Edit]: And that reminds me of something. All that 'ASWAG armor is so awesomely cool that armored VFs are no longer needed' is Shinshei/ Galaxy marketing bullshit: VFs are still defeated by other VFs, and now frigates, destroyers, light cruisers and even medium carriers are popping onscreen when faced against VF weaponry. All that ships are de-facto obsolete. Mobility is king because the shield is not strong enough against the lance, so your only hope is to make the lancer miss.

Oh and I know this is off the current topic a little but what was the purpose of having normal air-breathing jet engines in conjunction with reaction engines on the ES-11D Cat's Eye?

Since it had two reaction engines wouldn't it be more efficient to just run on that all the time instead of switching to a gas guzzling normal turbine for in atmosphere use? And those normal jets would just be dead weight in space.

Fallback? Old test platforms re-purposed after testing? For all we know, the S-11 could have been an specialized atmospheric sub-hunter that was used as test platform for the first reaction engines, retaining conventional ones if the new technology failed to work mid-air. Years later, those could have been converted to space/atmospheric ES-11 block D AEW as an off-the-shelf option, as weight penalties were acceptable for the space role, or didn't justify the cost of removing the dead-weight, or for not altering the center of gravity reasons. Edited by Aries Turner
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More about armor: conventional armor, even SWAG and ASWAG reinforced ones isn't cutting it. We have seen a large Vajra destroy a cruiser in one shot, Brera destroying a crippled Gitmo hulk also in one shot, and a SV-262 destroying a fully functional Gitmo, again in one shot. However, we have also seen a VF-31 using its pinpoint barrier to defeat such a SV-262 shot. Pinpoint barriers, not armour, is cutting it. That may explain the trend toward lighter VFs: instead of having a similar mass of improved armor capability that wouldn't cut it anyway, reduce it to increase mobility, and deploy pinpoint barriers everywhere.

Edited by Aries Turner
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I am curious on how NUNS acquire the data on the YF-29.Did the Frontier fleet disclosed the data?

They had to by NUNG law. Though decentralized, all development data is required to be shared among all the fleets, worlds, etc. Ironically considering the YF-29 came from Frontier, is that Frontier and Galaxy's private little cold war (turned hot by the end of the series) was all about them breaking this law by developing high tech based on pure fold quartz scavenged from the Vajra whilst also competing to find the Vajra home world so they could then go on to monopolize fold quartz.

So after all that ended and the Federal NUNG learned what was going on, it is a safe bet Frontier and what was left of Galaxy had to give up everything anyway. The YF-29 is just part of that.

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More about armor: conventional armor, even SWAG and ASWAG reinforced ones isn't cutting it. We have seen a large Vajra destroy a cruiser in one shot, Brera destroying a crippled Gitmo hulk also in one shot, and a SV-262 destroying a fully functional Gitmo, again in one shot. However, we have also seen a VF-31 using its pinpoint barrier to defeat such a SV-262 shot. Pinpoint barriers, not armour, is cutting it. That may explain the trend toward lighter VFs: instead of having a similar mass of improved armor capability that wouldn't cut it anyway, reduce it to increase mobility, and deploy pinpoint barriers everywhere.

Nitpicking here, Keith didn't destroy that ship with his cannon. He got in the AA Guns' dead zone and unloaded a salvo of Micro missiles into the ship via the launch bay.

Edited by NightmarePlus
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Nitpicking here, Keith didn't destroy that ship with his cannon. He got in the AA Guns' dead zone and unloaded a salvo of Micro missiles into the ship via the launch bay.

You are surelly right, but that is even a worse outcome: even a single micro-missile salvo makes damage comparable to a Macross Attack full Destroid salvo. Not only beam weapons are overkill: micro-missiles too. Edited by Aries Turner
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You are surelly right, but that is even a worse outcome: even a single micro-missile salvo makes damage comparable to a Macross Attack full Destroid salvo. Not only beam weapons are overkill: micro-missiles too.

Yeah, but that's only because he shot it into the ship and possibly the hanger section, where there would be fighters with loaded ordinance and unloaded ordinance.

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Yeah, but that's only because he shot it into the ship and possibly the hanger section, where there would be fighters with loaded ordinance and unloaded ordinance.

I see your point. By sheer luck use of jedi powers, Keith ignited the whole magazine. There is still Brera vaporizing an entire hulk. Inactive, undefended hulk. I can't stablish a direct comparison, but that shouldn't fall far behind heavy Vajra cruiser-killing shots.

Fold Quartz weaponry is heavy cheating: by having an extra-dimensional power source, the energy delivered on target far exceeds the total mass of the VF transmuting into energy all at once. Heavy hack on thermodynamics.

Edited by Aries Turner
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Not sure this is the right thread, but guess Wind SInging might qualify as technology.

Imagine there were to be no Mikumo for Roid to catch, and King Heinz would need to stay in power and sing. But he is a boy with a soprano voice. What if he were to reach puberty and his voice were to break? Would Windermere be left without its Wind Singer?

Don't tell me they castrate their Wind-singing kings...

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Not sure this is the right thread, but guess Wind SInging might qualify as technology.

Imagine there were to be no Mikumo for Roid to catch, and King Heinz would need to stay in power and sing. But he is a boy with a soprano voice. What if he were to reach puberty and his voice were to break? Would Windermere be left without its Wind Singer?

Don't tell me they castrate their Wind-singing kings...

IIRC, wouldn't that cause health complications? I've read that a lot of Sorprano's died because of castration at an early age, so i'd image Roid would want to avoid that happening to Heinz.

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Roid: "Your Majesty, prepare. It is time for your operation".

Heinz: "The Wind calls me, our skies need it, the galaxy needs it" (sighs) "I liked you, Star Singer"

Mikumo (still in shibari-style belt bondage): "What? What operation?"

Roid: "The change that will preserve the voice of the Wind SInger"

Mikumo: *realizes* *turns red, eyes wide"

Roid: "Rudanjal rom..."

Heinz: *suddenly looks at Mikumo in desperation*

Mikumo: *breaks out of bondage, kicks Roid in the groin, sings*

Heinz: *sings*

Sigur Valens: *goes on rampage threatening extinction of all life on Windermere*

Mikumo and Heinz: *look at each other, sparks in their eyes, then their songs join, controlling the SV and knocking Roid out cold*

Keith, running in: BROTHER! I just heard he was planning to... *offs Roid*

cue happy ending.

(That was the second-quickest fan fic in my life, I should probably copy it over to the fan fic thread)

Edited by Saruta
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VF are gaining a real ship killer role. Ship armor seems to have not advanced enough. In fact, all points about weapon tech advancing faster than armor tech, to the point of reducing weapons in size for the same effect, instead of maintaining weapon size for overkill destruction capability.

A few notes on this:
  • By 2067, most of the New UN Forces warship designs we've seen are closing on four decades old if you don't count modernizations like the ones which the Northampton-class has so visibly benefitted from.
  • Like variable fighters, warships often employ energy conversion armor to beef up their already considerable defensive capabilities.
  • I'm not sure it's so much a question of weapons tech advancing faster as it is a case of a few bleeding-edge 5th Generation VFs mounting beam weapons which have the ability to operate as both a rapid-fire beam machine gun and as a high powered anti-ship beam cannon. Like the Vajra, these few fighters can sometimes dispense capital ship-level firepower at the expense of greatly reduced rate of fire and/or increased cooldown times.
  • The smaller, more compact heavy quantum beam rifles seem to be smaller and preserving existing firepower in an attempt to dodge the problems inherent in the YF-27 and VF-27 gunpods... which were so large that they unbalanced their aircraft or even impeded the function of the landing gear. (Yes, really.)

I was concerned, however, with VF-31 engines not generating as much power as YF-30 or YF-29 ones. Or VF-27 totals. A battery or capacitor, as in VF-171EX, should be helpful.

... I don't honestly recall the VF-171EX having ever been mentioned as having any kind of capacitor system for its weapons. Are you perhaps confusing that with the VF-25's Armored Pack or Tornado Pack?

[Edit]: And that reminds me of something. All that 'ASWAG armor is so awesomely cool that armored VFs are no longer needed' is Shinshei/ Galaxy marketing bullshit:

But they've never said that...

In point of fact, the 5th Generation VFs only use ASWAG for the antiprojectile shields on their forearms because the stuff's so ruinously expensive. Even the YF-29 opted to double the thickness of the regular armor instead. The only bit of equipment that fully adopted ASWAG advanced energy conversion armor is the VF-25's APS-25A Armored Pack...

The Armored Pack itself was never really meant for fighting other VFs. What it was built for was more on the order of anti-warship operations where an excess of firepower and armor would serve better than ultra-high mobility. The VF-25 Armored Pack is kind of a "Why not both?" approach achieved through adding an incredibly powerful set of rocket boosters.

We have seen a large Vajra destroy a cruiser in one shot, Brera destroying a crippled Gitmo hulk also in one shot, and a SV-262 destroying a fully functional Gitmo, again in one shot.

A few other points of order...
  • The Heavy Soldier Vajra are shown to have the firepower to destroy a cruiser in one large blast, but they're basically lugging around the same kind of gun the VF-27 is... a heavy quantum beam cannon. It would not be unreasonable to assume they can fire a "charged shot" the same as any VF with a gunpod that's able to use beam grenade mode.
  • Brera destroyed a wrecked Guantanamo-class carrier with a shot from his gunpod's beam grenade... effectively shooting it with an anti-capital ship heavy quantum beam weapon. The vessel wasn't in fantastic shape either, after being sunk by the Vajra it couldn't exactly power its armor or repair all the existing hull breaches. (Plus he shot the ventral stern, probably intending to help the process along by detonating the ship's fuel tanks which are located there... undetonated ordinance left laying about may also have helped.)
  • Keith destroyed a Guantanamo-class by firing in through one of the elevators to the hangar deck, meaning the half-dozen or so missiles he fired into the ship detonated under the armor in an area where there was already a generous supply of unexploded live ordinance, fuel, and oxygen.

I am curious on how NUNS acquire the data on the YF-29.Did the Frontier fleet disclosed the data?

Master Dex explained this one succinctly enough... the New UN Gov't has a law requiring the disclosure of the specs for newly-developed weapons. Some, like SMS' Uroboros branch, have tried to game the system by designating trial-production VFs as "YF" instead to avoid having to make full disclosure, while Macross Galaxy basically blew the whole process off until they couldn't deny they'd completed the VF-27 anymore.

The Frontier fleet would've been obliged to divulge the specs to the YF-29 to the New UN Government, the same as SMS had to do with the YF-30.

I see your point. By sheer luck use of jedi powers, Keith ignited the whole magazine.

Luck probably had very little to do with it, considering each of those micro-missiles was probably carrying the equivalent of several hundred kilograms of TNT and were going off in an enclosed, airtight metal box full of oxygen and volatiles.

Fold Quartz weaponry is heavy cheating: by having an extra-dimensional power source, the energy delivered on target far exceeds the total mass of the VF transmuting into energy all at once. Heavy hack on thermodynamics

Weapons that use fold quartz aren't using it for a power source, they're using the stuff to produce the "superheavy quantum"... the distilled nastiness which makes dimensional weapons so destructive. Its mass is far greater than that of the normal heavy quantum used to induce fusion or fired from heavy quantum beam rifles, which invariably means it's being used in MDE weaponry and thus being used to produce microsingularities which pull matter out of realspace.

It's only fold wave or fold dimensional resonance systems that provide energy to the VF from fold space.

Not sure this is the right thread, but guess Wind SInging might qualify as technology.

Imagine there were to be no Mikumo for Roid to catch, and King Heinz would need to stay in power and sing. But he is a boy with a soprano voice. What if he were to reach puberty and his voice were to break? Would Windermere be left without its Wind Singer?

Don't tell me they castrate their Wind-singing kings...

All told, it sounds more like it's the specific brainwaves and fold receptor qualities that do the trick... so it's unlikely that he would lose his wind singer abilities as he aged unless his runes weakened with time.

Technically, I suppose you could have a tone-deaf wind singer and it'd work just as well. The songs are probably to help the wind singer generate the correct emotional wavelengths and brainwaves.

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Mostly nothing to object. Yeah, that remark is unnecessary, but I think it would be of some relief.

Like variable fighters, warships often employ energy conversion armor to beef up their already considerable defensive capabilities.

...that serves them of little in the receiving end of a beam grenade or Vajra grenade equivalent if caught off-guard not actively using pinpoint barriers. We have seen an entire fleet wiped by Jedi Starfighters. Although I concede it is mostly about being Jedi than being Starfighters.

... I don't honestly recall the VF-171EX having ever been mentioned as having any kind of capacitor system for its weapons. Are you perhaps confusing that with the VF-25's Armored Pack or Tornado Pack?

Not the airframe, but the AVPAGC/MEDC30-EX-A. It has an enlarged area in the base of the cannon I assumed it was a capacitor, battery or 'rounds' of energy (capacitors/batteries by very definition). Unless the entire energy needed is harvested from engines which combined have less output than a single VF-25 or VF-31A engine.

It's only fold wave or fold dimensional resonance systems that provide energy to the VF from fold space.

So it is the fold systems, not the fold quartz, the thing that allow breaking the Laws of Thermodynamics. OK, thanks for the correction. The point stands, however. It is a hax.

Luck probably had very little to do with it

'In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.' - Ben Kenobi.

Not for a Jedi, at least. However, I am not implying he used pyrokinesis, but 'sensing' where to hit. Hangar have no single door, but double ones, allways one set closed, to remain airtight.

Edited by Aries Turner
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They had to by NUNG law. Though decentralized, all development data is required to be shared among all the fleets, worlds, etc. Ironically considering the YF-29 came from Frontier, is that Frontier and Galaxy's private little cold war (turned hot by the end of the series) was all about them breaking this law by developing high tech based on pure fold quartz scavenged from the Vajra whilst also competing to find the Vajra home world so they could then go on to monopolize fold quartz.

So after all that ended and the Federal NUNG learned what was going on, it is a safe bet Frontier and what was left of Galaxy had to give up everything anyway. The YF-29 is just part of that.

Master Dex explained this one succinctly enough... the New UN Gov't has a law requiring the disclosure of the specs for newly-developed weapons. Some, like SMS' Uroboros branch, have tried to game the system by designating trial-production VFs as "YF" instead to avoid having to make full disclosure, while Macross Galaxy basically blew the whole process off until they couldn't deny they'd completed the VF-27 anymore.

The Frontier fleet would've been obliged to divulge the specs to the YF-29 to the New UN Government, the same as SMS had to do with the YF-30.

Thanks for the info.So i guess that is how the NUNS manage to build the YF-29B and manage to upgrade it?(Kinda disappointed since Seto said even the DX did not have info on it.)

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Thanks for the info.So i guess that is how the NUNS manage to build the YF-29B and manage to upgrade it?(Kinda disappointed since Seto said even the DX did not have info on it.)

Pretty much, and yeah, it is saddening there is no specific details on the YF-29B RB custom except that NUNS 'upgraded' it from the base design. Unfortunately we don't know exactly what is better about it. Since it was made for a NUNS special ops group though, it is certainly more killy than the original, lol.

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I can imagine the YF-29B Percival speaking in a faux Duke Devlin voice with the background music from Timberlake's "Sexy Back" playing in the background answering the question of how it differs from the Durandal with simply, "My design is totally different, my design... has a B in it."

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Not the airframe, but the AVPAGC/MEDC30-EX-A. It has an enlarged area in the base of the cannon I assumed it was a capacitor, battery or 'rounds' of energy (capacitors/batteries by very definition). Unless the entire energy needed is harvested from engines which combined have less output than a single VF-25 or VF-31A engine.

Probably not, normally when there's a capacitor system involved in a beam weapon's operation it's mentioned. I'd assume that's just the reaction chamber portion of the barrel where they produce the superheavy quantum that the gun excites with a resonance fold effect to produce the dimension eater effect it projects outward as a beam.

The VF-171EX is using a pair of detuned VF-19 engines, so those may be tuned to reserve more plasma for power generation as a way of making the most of having to reduce the thrust output to respect the Nightmare Plus's structural limitations.

So it is the fold systems, not the fold quartz, the thing that allow breaking the Laws of Thermodynamics. OK, thanks for the correction. The point stands, however.

The catch is that it only benefits the weapons of the YF-29, YF-30, and possibly VF-31 Siegfried.

The YF-27-3, YF-27-5, and VF-27 didn't have a fold wave system, and the poor man's fold wave system (the reheat system) in the Sv-262 Draken III is focused on increasing engine thrust.

Hangar have no single door, but double ones, allways one set closed, to remain airtight.

Maybe, maybe not... we've seen in previous titles that some ships in Macross don't keep their entire hangar pressurized.

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