The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[TG Remix]

46 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IMO the weirdest example was the stealth cruiser where they just stuck the Macross Quarter's heavy quantum cannon on the underside.

"Stealth is required for this mission"

"Not in this part of that galaxy it isn't!" - Some unhinged frontier NUNS engineer

48 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering how much space those Zentradi ships have, odds are they wouldn't even need a separate colony ship.

So something like how the SDFN class has facilities for civilians and military personnel? 

 

49 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's definitely evidence that the New UN Forces incorporated Zentradi ships and mecha into their organization... like the aforementioned case of postwar ARMD-class space carriers adding nearly a hundred Regults in place of many of the Ghosts and Lancers they previously carried.  I'd assume they were probably organized as separate squadrons at least, for the sake of organizational clarity.

Yes that's what I meant, I apologize for the lack of clarity. We usually don't see a lot of mixed fighter squadrons unless they're PMCs or the VF-X Special Forces units.

 

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Start to finish, it lasted less than two years.  They emerged in late 2871 PC and were ultimately defeated and sealed by the Anima Spiritia in 2873 PC.  They didn't have the time, or any real reason, to reengineer and replace the weapons the Protoculture had armed the forces they were capturing and brainwashing with.  This wasn't a subtle undertaking either.  They conquered hundreds of worlds - over 30% of the Stellar Republic - in just three months and turned those captured defense forces and civilians to their cause by draining their spiritia and subjecting them to mind control.

 

Oh wow that is a lot more shorter than I expected. Though then again considering how the Zentradi Main Fleet glassed Earth the only thing that prevented it from being quicker was how vast the Stellar Republic's reach was.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

"Stealth is required for this mission"

"Not in this part of that galaxy it isn't!" - Some unhinged frontier NUNS engineer

"Nobody can raise the alarm if nobody is left alive to raise the alarm."

It's undeniably effective, but hardly efficient.

(An approach my lamentable lack of skill has left me very familiar with in stealth games like Dishonored or Hitman.)

 

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So something like how the SDFN class has facilities for civilians and military personnel? 

Something like that, yeah... or the rather posh accommodations we saw aboard Vrlitwhai's ship in Super Dimension Fortress Macross.

Miclone crew quarters looked less like a berth of a navy ship and more like a fairly posh highrise apartment if Max and Milia's are anything to go by.

 

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Oh wow that is a lot more shorter than I expected. Though then again considering how the Zentradi Main Fleet glassed Earth the only thing that prevented it from being quicker was how vast the Stellar Republic's reach was.

The main reason why the Supervision Army was able to conquer as much of the Stellar Republic as quickly as they did was because the Protoculture's Zentradi force were unable to engage the enemy for much of the war.

You see, the precautionary measures the Protoculture had taken to prevent a Zentradi uprising ultimately worked against them.  One of the primary directives the Protoculture had instilled in their Zentradi forces was "Do not interfere with the Protoculture".  Faced with an enemy whose forces contained large numbers of brainwashed Protoculture civilians, the Zentradi were effectively powerless to stop them until the Protoculture authorities could rescind that particular directive.  They were never able to successfully re-implement those directives after the Protodeviln were sealed, which contributed to the Protoculture's decline and explains why some fleets like Boddole Zer's only remember the directive as ancient history and others (e.g. Macross: Eternal Love Song's Leplendis fleet) still at least follow the spirit of the directive if not its letter.

[cheemingwan1234]

Okay, when Earth got bombarded from orbit by the Zentraedi during Space War 1, were there any instances of famine (and the other nastier stuff such as cannibalism) for the first few months from the survivors  or did the bombardment spare some farmland by coincidence?

[Seto Kaiba]

48 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Okay, when Earth got bombarded from orbit by the Zentraedi during Space War 1, were there any instances of famine (and the other nastier stuff su ch as cannibalism) for the first few months from the survivors  or did the bombardment spare some farmland by coincidence?

This is Macross not Warhammer 40,000 or Gundam... it doesn't get quite that dark here.

The Boddole Zer main fleet's bombardment of the Earth's surface was on the level of a global mass extinction event. Anyone who was on the surface was killed. Almost everyone would have been killed in the blast themselves as every population center was destroyed. A few unlucky souls living in particularly remote regions might have lasted long enough to be killed by secondary effects of the bombardment like tidal waves, earthquakes, or to suffocate on the dust, ash, and other pollutants saturating the atmosphere. It's unlikely that anyone on the surface lived long enough to have any concerns about where their next meal was going to come from.

The approximately 1 million survivors of the disaster were people who were not on Earth's surface at the time. People like the inhabitants of the Apollo base colony on Luna, the space colonies and factories at the Lagrange points, the civilians and crew aboard the recently resupplied Macross, and the regional command center bunkers located beneath each of the Grand Cannon systems. The survivors were either out in space in partially or fully self-sufficient space habitats, aboard recently resupplied warships, or in massive underground bunkers designed and provisioned to resist a prolonged alien invasion. It took a while for the environmental cleanup efforts to render the atmosphere breathable again, and extreme measures had to be taken to prevent runaway global warming and other catastrophes, and there was rationing in place for a while after that, but there's no evidence that anyone was in danger of starvation. Times were tough, but not insurmountably so.

[cheemingwan1234]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is Macross not Warhammer 40,000 or Gundam... it doesn't get quite that dark here.

The Boddole Zer main fleet's bombardment of the Earth's surface was on the level of a global mass extinction event. Anyone who was on the surface was killed. Almost everyone would have been killed in the blast themselves as every population center was destroyed. A few unlucky souls living in particularly remote regions might have lasted long enough to be killed by secondary effects of the bombardment like tidal waves, earthquakes, or to suffocate on the dust, ash, and other pollutants saturating the atmosphere. It's unlikely that anyone on the surface lived long enough to have any concerns about where their next meal was going to come from.

The approximately 1 million survivors of the disaster were people who were not on Earth's surface at the time. People like the inhabitants of the Apollo base colony on Luna, the space colonies and factories at the Lagrange points, the civilians and crew aboard the recently resupplied Macross, and the regional command center bunkers located beneath each of the Grand Cannon systems. The survivors were either out in space in partially or fully self-sufficient space habitats, aboard recently resupplied warships, or in massive underground bunkers designed and provisioned to resist a prolonged alien invasion. It took a while for the environmental cleanup efforts to render the atmosphere breathable again, and extreme measures had to be taken to prevent runaway global warming and other catastrophes, and there was rationing in place for a while after that, but there's no evidence that anyone was in danger of starvation. Times were tough, but not insurmountably so.

I pity those poor sods...yeah that's gonna destroy what's left of Earth's biodiversity and not to mention, really restrict arable farmland........

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

I pity those poor sods...yeah that's gonna destroy what's left of Earth's biodiversity and not to mention, really restrict arable farmland........

Let's look at this as a whole (physical as well as emotional/ psychological):

- Runaway greenhouse effect by the release of CO2 and dust into the air; rock, sea brine ice at the poles and saline aquifers trap CO2, and the bombardment would have vaporized all of that material, releasing the stored CO2.

-Disruption of the Earth's Magnetosphere, allowing charged particle radiation from the solar wind and cosmic rays to erode and ultimately blow away the Earth's atmosphere.

-Destruction of the Ozone Layer, allowing UV A, B and C into the atmosphere.

-Destruction of plant life in the oceans due to the bombardment, resulting in the loss of 80% of world Oxygen production. ( 50% alone is generated by Phytoplankton in the oceans).

-Destruction of all surface fauna (animals), devastating the biosphere and greatly impacting available food supply, transportation and work labor for farms (traditional).

-Irradiation of indigenous flora on the planet (from both the bombardment as well as solar radiation now flooding the planet), damaging the genetic structure of plant life and in many cases, outright destroying it. This also will result in the loss of 28% of the Earth's Oxygen.

- Irradiation of/ boiling away of freshwater sources, which will also add water vapor to the air; this will only enhance the greenhouse effect, reduce available potable water supplies and reduce the availability of solar power.

-"Glassing" (the superheating of silica in the soil until it vitrifies into glass) vast portions of arable farmland, greatly reducing available soil for growing crops and feeding any surviving livestock.

-Increase in rates of cancer, glaucoma and cataracts and general radiation poisoning in the surviving populace.

-Devastation of previously established weather patterns, drastically affecting the already devastated farmlands ("dust-bowl" conditions).

-Increased tectonic instability due to the loss/ shifting on bodies of water from the continental places/ boiling away from underground aquifers.

-Devastation of technical capabilities due to increased radiation interfering with all but heavily shielded electronics.

-Loss of shelter for people on Earth (including food storage, safe resting areas, hygeine/ restroom facilities/ sewage, running water).

-Psychological trauma (PTSD, "Survivor's guilt", panic/ paranoia/ fear, etc.); grief and despair resulting from loss of society, loss of families/ loved ones, loss of national pride, and devastation of environment as a whole, hopelessness, suicidal ideation.

-Resentment towards the Unity Government for "allowing this to happen".

"Poor sods" doesn't even begin to describe it.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

-Disruption of the Earth's Magnetosphere, allowing charged particle radiation from the solar wind and cosmic rays to erode and ultimately blow away the Earth's atmosphere.

This one at least isn't a big concern. The magnetosphere isn't really a physical object. It's just the magnetic field the Earth's spinning iron core generates. Sure a bunch of charged particles ripping through it will cause short-term distortions of the magnetic field, but it springs back.
 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

-Destruction of the Ozone Layer, allowing UV A, B and C into the atmosphere.

Similar here. The ozone layer is an automatically-replenishing resource.

(There's actually a possibility the bombardment would've REINFORCED the ozone layer, as the process which generates ozone begins with cracking apart O2 molecules to create free oxygen, and the zentradi bombardment dropped a LOT of high-energy particles into the atmosphere.)

 

 

 

But yeah, it was a pretty bad time to be an earthling.

[sketchley]

I recently translated the Macross Chronicle page on the cleanup after the orbital bombardment (Technology 15A: The Nature Regeneration Project): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/15aNatureRegenerationProject.php

It has some rather unsettling details (like what happened to the oceans, and subsequently the atmosphere), and some neat things like the orbital sunshade.

[TG Remix]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Something like that, yeah... or the rather posh accommodations we saw aboard Vrlitwhai's ship in Super Dimension Fortress Macross.

Miclone crew quarters looked less like a berth of a navy ship and more like a fairly posh highrise apartment if Max and Milia's are anything to go by.

That is also true, with space to spare you can afford to give your military personnel a bit more luxury. Although it does make me wonder where Mecha launches from in most of these ships. The only ones I know are the Picket Patrol Ship has two "Central Wing Beta Launch Port Openings" on each "wing" and a "Launch Port Opening" on the stern, and the hatches on the Queadol-Magdomilla's Assault Module.

 

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You see, the precautionary measures the Protoculture had taken to prevent a Zentradi uprising ultimately worked against them.  One of the primary directives the Protoculture had instilled in their Zentradi forces was "Do not interfere with the Protoculture".  Faced with an enemy whose forces contained large numbers of brainwashed Protoculture civilians, the Zentradi were effectively powerless to stop them until the Protoculture authorities could rescind that particular directive.  They were never able to successfully re-implement those directives after the Protodeviln were sealed, which contributed to the Protoculture's decline and explains why some fleets like Boddole Zer's only remember the directive as ancient history and others (e.g. Macross: Eternal Love Song's Leplendis fleet) still at least follow the spirit of the directive if not its letter.

Sometimes I wish we could learn more about other Main Fleets in the main continuity, if only to see how different they operate or some narrative contrast with the other Zentradi we're more familiar with. Although to add to that working against them, I believe there was also how the Zentradi has an instinctual fear for Protodevlin which probably screwed them over as well, as the poor Macross 5 fleet found out the hard way.

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

"Poor sods" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Sometimes I wonder if one of the reasons there's a purposeful intention to not focus on Earth in the franchise other than Plus was because even after decades of attempted recovery it sounds absolutely miserable to live down there.

 

31 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I recently translated the Macross Chronicle page on the cleanup after the orbital bombardment (Technology 15A: The Nature Regeneration Project): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/15aNatureRegenerationProject.php

It has some rather unsettling details (like what happened to the oceans, and subsequently the atmosphere), and some neat things like the orbital sunshade.

Good work! I think all of that came from Macross Perfect Memory which also explained the aforementioned "Wings" of the picket ships and stuff like the Zentradi Fleet structure alongside how they were accustomed to Earth, including giant-sized sports! And more "adult" stuff I'm not allowed to say here so let's breeze by that. Makes me wonder who illustrated the one picture when two female Zentradi wrestling with a Battroid referee and how much fun he had with that one. 😆

Edited November 22, 2023 by TG Remix

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Sometimes I wonder if one of the reasons there's a purposeful intention to not focus on Earth in the franchise other than Plus was because even after decades of attempted recovery it sounds absolutely miserable to live down there.

I'm pretty convinced that Macross City in what used to be called Alaska is probably the only really functioning population center.

We know there are other towns, most of them being set up after resettling and not far from Macross City really but I heavily doubt any place is anywhere near that built up. 

[Bolt]

Wasn't most of the Earth "cleaned up " with terra forming technology?  I imagine, by the time of Frontier and Delta, that Earth would have several major metropolitan areas. As well as thriving agriculture in place too. It's still the central power and most heavily protected region of human space. I doubt it's a dump anymore.

[Invid99]

19 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm also a bit surprised that the Neo Nupetiet Vergnitzs weren't there in the volume at all, especially since the book also loved to put a bow cannon at any chance they could. It also made a Zentradi-styled Stealth Cruiser akin to the Stealth frigate in 7.

 

Wonder if my mental image of a lone Zentradi battleship leading a small colony ship would be probably in that case, anything bigger than a Gun Destroyer more or less can hold an entire UN defense fleet within itself I reckon.

 

I got the impression that the New UN post-SWI had a lot of mixed craft squadrons consisting of variable fighters, battlepods, and battlesuits. Although that may or may not be an effect of the ragtag nature of Earth's condition at that point before things got more standardized. The Queadluun series was also said to be liked for its dogfighting capabilities so I'd assume more than the Spacy Marines would use them.  

Now I see the word "legacy," I'm kinda wondering if we know more about the NUNS Reserve service aside from that Isamu himself was a part of it when he was chosen to be a YF-24 test pilot.

 

I'd honestly assumed that any Supervision Army stuff would be more akin to how the Varauta Army's Valkyries looked since they were heavily modified UN variable craft.

Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised if Shoji Kawamori had some sketch drawings of the Supervision Army's Varauta inspired design. 

[pengbuzz]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

This one at least isn't a big concern. The magnetosphere isn't really a physical object. It's just the magnetic field the Earth's spinning iron core generates. Sure a bunch of charged particles ripping through it will cause short-term distortions of the magnetic field, but it springs back.

"Short-term" is relative here; the magnetosphere would take some time to "come back" (as evidenced by a real-life shift 42,000 years ago that disrupted the climate across the planet).  Geologically speaking, what scientists call "short term" would be much longer than humans could tolerate on Earth. And with the massive amount of energy being lobbed at the planet, the disruption would be fairly intense.

 

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

Similar here. The ozone layer is an automatically-replenishing resource.

(There's actually a possibility the bombardment would've REINFORCED the ozone layer, as the process which generates ozone begins with cracking apart O2 molecules to create free oxygen, and the zentradi bombardment dropped a LOT of high-energy particles into the atmosphere.)

Not with that much energy.

Referencing real life again, after a certain level of energy in the air, ozone begins breaking down:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11456-solar-superflare-shredded-earths-ozone/

The thing is: I think you don't realize the time tables here for the planetary resources to replenish are on a scale that is not quick by our standards. And in the days and weeks after the end of SW1, people would be in immediate ecological peril.

  

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

I recently translated the Macross Chronicle page on the cleanup after the orbital bombardment (Technology 15A: The Nature Regeneration Project): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/15aNatureRegenerationProject.php

It has some rather unsettling details (like what happened to the oceans, and subsequently the atmosphere), and some neat things like the orbital sunshade.

The report seems to mirror much of what I described previously.

Edited November 22, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

I pity those poor sods...yeah that's gonna destroy what's left of Earth's biodiversity and not to mention, really restrict arable farmland........

All in all, they had a rough patch immediately following the First Space War but they've been doing pretty well for themselves thereafter despite Earth's environment having been wiped out. 

Humanity is phenomenally stubborn, and since abandoning Earth in the immediate aftermath of the First Space War wasn't in the cards they ultimately decided to not only put in the work to keep the planet nominally habitable but actually attempt to repair its ecosystem as completely as possible using their advanced (and advancing) technology.  It'll take them thousands of years, but Earth is also the wealthiest and most industrially and militarily powerful planet in the galaxy so they aren't too bothered by the cost in terms of time and resources.

 

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

That is also true, with space to spare you can afford to give your military personnel a bit more luxury. Although it does make me wonder where Mecha launches from in most of these ships. The only ones I know are the Picket Patrol Ship has two "Central Wing Beta Launch Port Openings" on each "wing" and a "Launch Port Opening" on the stern, and the hatches on the Queadol-Magdomilla's Assault Module.

They've got concealed hatches in various places... like that belly hatch in the assault module of the Queadol Magdomilla-class.  The Quiltra Queleual-class has hatches at the rear that appear to be their main hangar.  The hangar we see Vrlitwhai and the captured Cat's Eye recon plane in seems to be somewhere on the flank of the Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Sometimes I wish we could learn more about other Main Fleets in the main continuity, if only to see how different they operate or some narrative contrast with the other Zentradi we're more familiar with. Although to add to that working against them, I believe there was also how the Zentradi has an instinctual fear for Protodevlin which probably screwed them over as well, as the poor Macross 5 fleet found out the hard way.

WRT the Zentradi's fear of the Protodeviln... I doubt it's anything like instinctive.

In Macross 7, Exsedol is the ONLY Zentradi character who displays that intense fear reaction to the prospect of the Protodeviln.  Milia doesn't.  Veffidas doesn't.  None of the half-Zentradi characters do.  The reason he's the only one to have this reaction is probably that he's the only one who's really privy to knowledge of what the Protodeviln can do.  Back when he was serving in the Zentradi forces, he was the Vrlitwhai branch fleet's records officer and the aide de camp to the fleet's commander.  We know, from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, that he had access to records going back as far as the Stellar Republic dissolution conflict as he was the one to bring up the ancient directive that Zentradi were not to interfere with the worlds of the miclones.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Sometimes I wonder if one of the reasons there's a purposeful intention to not focus on Earth in the franchise other than Plus was because even after decades of attempted recovery it sounds absolutely miserable to live down there.

I doubt it, TBH.

After all, Macross is a fundamentally optimistic story.  Earth's environment may be in rough shape, but they're leveraging the most advanced technology in the galaxy to make the planet livable and restore its former beauty a little bit at a time.  Quite a lot of people, including some of the galaxy's wealthiest and most powerful, still live there.

Focusing on stories elsewhere is a way to keep the story fresh and avoid bogging down the way other franchises have by obsessing over the same handful of characters until the lot of them are old, gray, and broken...

Spoiler

Lookin' at you, Robotech... Star Wars... Star Trek: Picard... Indiana Jones... etc.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Good work! I think all of that came from Macross Perfect Memory which also explained the aforementioned "Wings" of the picket ships and stuff like the Zentradi Fleet structure alongside how they were accustomed to Earth, including giant-sized sports! And more "adult" stuff I'm not allowed to say here so let's breeze by that. Makes me wonder who illustrated the one picture when two female Zentradi wrestling with a Battroid referee and how much fun he had with that one. 😆

It's not the only one... My Fair Minmay makes mention of some decidedly not-kid-friendly after-hours entertainment options aboard the Macross during the war.

 

 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I'm pretty convinced that Macross City in what used to be called Alaska is probably the only really functioning population center.

We know there are other towns, most of them being set up after resettling and not far from Macross City really but I heavily doubt any place is anywhere near that built up. 

We only get a detailed look at postwar Earth in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, so this is perhaps an understandable view... though there are multiple cities/towns/villages/etc. even just a few years after the First Space War, and it's likely those grew and spread out after the series ended.

Macross City would naturally be the biggest, given that it's the oldest, the planetary capital, and the seat of the interstellar government and military.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Wasn't most of the Earth "cleaned up " with terra forming technology?  I imagine, by the time of Frontier and Delta, that Earth would have several major metropolitan areas. As well as thriving agriculture in place too. It's still the central power and most heavily protected region of human space. I doubt it's a dump anymore.

Well, I wouldn't put it in the past tense...

Earth's environment was all but completely destroyed in the Zentradi's orbital bombardment.  Humanity and the Zentradi defectors put a lot of effort into emergency measures to keep Earth capable of supporting life in the immediate aftermath of the war, but cleanup and nature restoration efforts are ongoing and will be likely be ongoing for millennia.  It's getting better by degrees, but Earth's not gonna be entering any "best kept lawn" competitions anytime soon.  There are areas that have been restored to something that vaguely approximates prewar conditions thanks to cloning, genetic engineering, seed banks, and so on... but they're carefully maintained and monitored nature preserves that are being slowly expanded through painstaking human effort.  Most of Earth's surface is still a desert even when we see it in 2040, 2059, and 2068.

It's only in that other series we don't talk about that Earth magically recovered in an incredibly short period... thanks to footage from other shows representing an Earth where no such event ever happened.

 

 

1 hour ago, Invid99 said:

Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised if Shoji Kawamori had some sketch drawings of the Supervision Army's Varauta inspired design. 

Doesn't seem that he does... the Supervision Army were Sir Not Appearing in This Film every time they've been mentioned.  

Literally the only design we have for the Supervision Army is Miyatake's design for the original appearance of the SDF-1 Macross.

There were draft designs done to connect the Zentradi designs to the Vajra's designs, to support the conceit that the Protoculture modeled many of their designs on Vajra biology, but nothing for the Supervision Army.

(Come to that, the Varauta designs weren't initially made for Macross either.  They were developed as antagonist mecha for the Air Cavalry Chronicles series concept before that project pivoted to the fantasy genre and became The Vision of Escaflowne.  They were minimally reworked for use in Macross 7, but even kept the Zaibach Empire designations from the original series concept.)

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(...) Most of Earth's surface is still a desert even when we see it in 2040, 2059, and 2068.

(...)

Which brings to mind this still from Macross Plus (that's not the Moon in the background):

 

  

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

(...) I imagine, by the time of Frontier and Delta, that Earth would have several major metropolitan areas. As well as thriving agriculture in place too. (...)

 

From what few appearances there have been in subsequent Macross series, there are several major metropolitan areas.  There are also many in orbit, too.  However, it's nothing like the Earth that we know.  Going by the hard facts mentioned in the Macross Chronicle article, the arctic regions (where Macross City is located) are the new habitable zones, the tropical regions appear to be too hot, and there probably isn't much ice—if any!—in the polar regions any more.

Edited November 23, 2023 by sketchley

[JB0]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's only in that other series we don't talk about that Earth magically recovered in an incredibly short period... thanks to footage from other shows representing an Earth where no such event ever happened.

A perception encouraged by "Khyron" having seemingly crashed in an undamaged chunk of rainforest. It is a lot harder to explain how he could be hiding there if it was a postwar manmade forest.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, JB0 said:

A perception encouraged by "Khyron" having seemingly crashed in an undamaged chunk of rainforest. It is a lot harder to explain how he could be hiding there if it was a postwar manmade forest.

One problem among many with the "other series".

Macross Chronicle notes that both the artificially cultivated Nature Regeneration Areas and the few small areas where the natural environment had escaped complete destruction at the Zentradi's hands were carefully monitored and managed under the Nature Regeneration Project.

Quamzin was able to remain hidden as long as he did because his rebels were a tiny minority among the ~8 million Zentradi living on Earth, he sensibly moved around a fair bit to evade capture, there were no shortage of Zentradi derelicts to use as hideouts or pillage for equipment, and the critically understrength (New) UN Forces were spread very thin as they attempted to pick up the pieces on Earth and plan for future space emigration.

If you exclude Zentradi volunteers, the New UN Forces were trying to police an entire star system with around 200-300 Valkyries, a few hundred Destroids, and just two carriers.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One problem among many with the "other series".

Macross Chronicle notes that both the artificially cultivated Nature Regeneration Areas and the few small areas where the natural environment had escaped complete destruction at the Zentradi's hands were carefully monitored and managed under the Nature Regeneration Project.

Quamzin was able to remain hidden as long as he did because his rebels were a tiny minority among the ~8 million Zentradi living on Earth, he sensibly moved around a fair bit to evade capture, there were no shortage of Zentradi derelicts to use as hideouts or pillage for equipment, and the critically understrength (New) UN Forces were spread very thin as they attempted to pick up the pieces on Earth and plan for future space emigration.

If you exclude Zentradi volunteers, the New UN Forces were trying to police an entire star system with around 200-300 Valkyries, a few hundred Destroids, and just two carriers.

Harder to explain, but not impossible.

 

In fairness to that other show, with just what's in the show,it LOOKS like he's in a portion of undamaged rainforest. Their producers went the "targetted mostly major population centers" explanation for their extended media, likely completely ignorant of  100% Pure Macross's more complex explanation.

[sketchley]

17 hours ago, JB0 said:

A perception encouraged by "Khyron" having seemingly crashed in an undamaged chunk of rainforest.

Which begs an interesting pair of questions: where was that "rainforest"?  And when did it grow?

As indicated by the Macross Chronicle sheet I linked to above, global temperatures rose drastically, and sea levels fell.  Therefore, what we think is "a tropical rainforest" may not necessarily be in the Tropics.  Also, some plants grow wickedly fast.  While that rainforest could have survived the destruction, given enough time (and a place devoid of nasty radiation), it could have grown within a couple of months to a couple of years.  Anyone who has had experience with Japanese knotweed will appreciate what I'm getting at.

[TG Remix]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Humanity is phenomenally stubborn, and since abandoning Earth in the immediate aftermath of the First Space War wasn't in the cards they ultimately decided to not only put in the work to keep the planet nominally habitable but actually attempt to repair its ecosystem as completely as possible using their advanced (and advancing) technology.  It'll take them thousands of years, but Earth is also the wealthiest and most industrially and militarily powerful planet in the galaxy so they aren't too bothered by the cost in terms of time and resources.

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

After all, Macross is a fundamentally optimistic story.  Earth's environment may be in rough shape, but they're leveraging the most advanced technology in the galaxy to make the planet livable and restore its former beauty a little bit at a time.  Quite a lot of people, including some of the galaxy's wealthiest and most powerful, still live there.

Focusing on stories elsewhere is a way to keep the story fresh and avoid bogging down the way other franchises have by obsessing over the same handful of characters until the lot of them are old, gray, and broken...

That makes sense, guess I was underestimating how good Macross has it even in the most dire of situations. The ability to keep things fresh and new is probably why Eden is my favorite setting in the franchise, additionally, it helps that out of everywhere else no big conflict happened. Plus, living on Earth can't be any worse than being a resident of the Macross Galaxy fleet.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

In Macross 7, Exsedol is the ONLY Zentradi character who displays that intense fear reaction to the prospect of the Protodeviln.  Milia doesn't.  Veffidas doesn't.  None of the half-Zentradi characters do.  The reason he's the only one to have this reaction is probably that he's the only one who's really privy to knowledge of what the Protodeviln can do.  Back when he was serving in the Zentradi forces, he was the Vrlitwhai branch fleet's records officer and the aide de camp to the fleet's commander.  We know, from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, that he had access to records going back as far as the Stellar Republic dissolution conflict as he was the one to bring up the ancient directive that Zentradi were not to interfere with the worlds of the miclones.

 

So really what did the Macross 5 fleet in was their excruciating lack of plot armor compared to the Macross 7 did, the poor dolts.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:22 AM, Master Dex said:

I'm pretty convinced that Macross City in what used to be called Alaska is probably the only really functioning population center.

We know there are other towns, most of them being set up after resettling and not far from Macross City really but I heavily doubt any place is anywhere near that built up. 

There was that one suspiciously empty city Isamu and Guld fight in before reconnecting their bromance again. Wondered what was that all about.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Literally the only design we have for the Supervision Army is Miyatake's design for the original appearance of the SDF-1 Macross.

And it seems pretty close to the aesthetics of the Zentradi ships, so that's fair. Makes me wonder if the ships from the Varauta Army always looked like that as UN ships.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

(Come to that, the Varauta designs weren't initially made for Macross either.  They were developed as antagonist mecha for the Air Cavalry Chronicles series concept before that project pivoted to the fantasy genre and became The Vision of Escaflowne.  They were minimally reworked for use in Macross 7, but even kept the Zaibach Empire designations from the original series concept.)

That's where the original designs of the SV-154 and SV-262 came from as well right? Kawamori does have a pendant for reusing old designs, like the Regult with arms coming back in Delta; that's why recycling is important kids! Now I'm waiting for the variable/transformable battlesuit and I'd be content.

On 11/23/2023 at 3:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

If you exclude Zentradi volunteers, the New UN Forces were trying to police an entire star system with around 200-300 Valkyries, a few hundred Destroids, and just two carriers.

100 Zentradi ships is also relatively small all things considered. Although with ships in mind, I wonder what happens to the colony ships  (the Megaroad class, New Macross Class with both city and battleships, etc.) if they find a planet to settle down? Do they just sit where they landed and become a semi-permanent city Island Jackpot style? Or are they used for other duties after their main purpose is done like the SDFN class after a short bit? And with the tidbit that some Zentradi ships are being modified for colony ships, kinda wonder if the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis could also serve as one considering it's probably top three of the biggest NUNS ship class in their arsenal.

Edited November 25, 2023 by TG Remix

[TG Remix]

I've mentioned Macross Galaxy before, and it's been some time since I watched Frontier, so I'm also thinking how the galaxy at large wasn't aware of how the Macross 21 operates, with the whole mind control and cyberization. Was it just very effective media and news managing that got the rest of the UN off their backs until the Varja forced them to?

[Seto Kaiba]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:18 PM, TG Remix said:

That's where the original designs of the SV-154 and SV-262 came from as well right?

Just the Sv-154 Svard... it was originally the LV-7 "Valorous Rapier" from Air Cavalry Chronicles.  It was one of three Variable Fighter designs associated wtih Fanelia, which would go on to become the homeland of Escaflowne protagonist Van Fanel and the titular Guymelef.

 

On 11/24/2023 at 8:18 PM, TG Remix said:

Although with ships in mind, I wonder what happens to the colony ships  (the Megaroad class, New Macross Class with both city and battleships, etc.) if they find a planet to settle down? Do they just sit where they landed and become a semi-permanent city Island Jackpot style? Or are they used for other duties after their main purpose is done like the SDFN class after a short bit? And with the tidbit that some Zentradi ships are being modified for colony ships, kinda wonder if the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis could also serve as one considering it's probably top three of the biggest NUNS ship class in their arsenal.

I recall one or two mentions of the possibility for an emigrant ship to be reused multiple times, sent back into space to continue exploring after depositing a colony on a habitable world.  The Macross-class SDFNs were supposedly being reused this way, and we know of at least one in-series example of it happening: the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global that was ultimately seconded to the 117th Research Fleet's expedition into Vajra space.

That said, the norm from the animation is having the emigrant ship land on the newly discovered habitable planet and stay there as a sort of prefabricated city.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I've mentioned Macross Galaxy before, and it's been some time since I watched Frontier, so I'm also thinking how the galaxy at large wasn't aware of how the Macross 21 operates, with the whole mind control and cyberization. Was it just very effective media and news managing that got the rest of the UN off their backs until the Varja forced them to?

Macross Galaxy's living conditions couldn't have been a complete secret, since the fleet did engage in commerce and technological codevelopment with other emigrant fleets and has hosted at least one major sporting event (the 2058 Vanquish League championships).  

Emigrant fleets seem to have quite a lot of latitude when it comes to deciding what kind of local government they're going to have, how they'll organize their armed forces, and so on.  Macross Galaxy being a cyberpunk-style corporate state - a spacefaring company town - probably raised a few eyebrows in and of itself but also likely excused at least some of the fleet's unusual efficiency-first choices WRT living conditions like the lack of natural spaces and going all-in on synthetic foods instead of devoting resources to maintaining environment ships for things like farming and aquaculture in the eyes of visitors.  Visitors to the fleet had at least limited awareness that implants could be used to manipulate a person's senses, but since they could only experience the fleet's cyberspace through AR glasses they probably didn't realize the true extent of the control that was possible.  The news that the fleet had legalized implant technology was not a secret, but it doesn't seem to have been something that was headline news since it was an internal decision that only affected Macross Galaxy and there was no evidence (yet) that they were flouting the bans on cyborg soldiers and the like.

Essentially, Macross Galaxy never had to get the rest of the New UN Government "off their backs" because everything that was going on fell within the realm of Macross Galaxy's internal affairs.  Questionable, perhaps, but not worth intervening in another government's business.  The first concrete evidence of actual wrongdoing didn't come out until 2058, when the Frontier fleet encountered an (illegal) cyborg soldier for the first time.  That doesn't seem to have become widely known, so the rest of the New UN Government doesn't seem to have become properly aware of Macross Galaxy's unlawful activities until it became clear they were engaging in a war of aggression against the Vajra in violation of the New UN Government's laws.  (Even then, consequences probably weren't coming because the fleet was reported destroyed by the Vajra... and in the movie version, they actually were.)

[darkranger12]

Is there any info on how big the 117th fleet was?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, darkranger12 said:

Is there any info on how big the 117th fleet was?

You mean the 117th research fleet that was destroyed by the Vajra in 2048? 

No, we've been given no indication of how big that fleet actually was. We've only seen I think two ships from it.

[darkranger12]

Okay.

[RaisingCane]

Outside of the urban centers, is Earth still supposed to be mostly a post-apocalyptic wasteland by the 2060s?

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Outside of the urban centers, is Earth still supposed to be mostly a post-apocalyptic wasteland by the 2060s?

We haven't actually seen Earth's surface outside of Macross City in a while... but yeah, almost certainly.

Earth's environment was almost totally destroyed by the Zentradi in 2010 and it's only through technological measures that the planet has a breathable atmosphere and isn't being quickly rendered uninhabitable by runaway global warming.  It's supposedly going to take thousands and thousands of years to restore the environment to something resembling the planet's pre-war state.  It was still mostly a desert in 2040, and it's likely that hasn't changed much by 2067-2068.

[cheemingwan1234]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:09 AM, TG Remix said:

"Stealth is required for this mission"

"Not in this part of that galaxy it isn't!" - Some unhinged frontier NUNS engineer

 

Cue the Lyran Recon Lance. Aka let's scout with our heavier equipment and reduce the surrounding area into a parking lot while we're at it! It's stealth if there is no survivors which means no witnesses! Right?

 

A VF-22 with reaction warheads, the perfect stealth VF

Edited January 3 by cheemingwan1234

[RaisingCane]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We haven't actually seen Earth's surface outside of Macross City in a while... but yeah, almost certainly.

Earth's environment was almost totally destroyed by the Zentradi in 2010 and it's only through technological measures that the planet has a breathable atmosphere and isn't being quickly rendered uninhabitable by runaway global warming.  It's supposedly going to take thousands and thousands of years to restore the environment to something resembling the planet's pre-war state.  It was still mostly a desert in 2040, and it's likely that hasn't changed much by 2067-2068.

Is it also generally assumed that the Amazon rain forest (as seen in SDFM) and the oceans (as seen in DYRL) are still more or less okay? 

Edited January 3 by RaisingCane

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is it also generally assumed that the Amazon rain forest

That's a Robotech-ism... I don't believe Macross ever specifies where the small forested area Quamzin found his derelict ship was.  Probably not that far away, considering that the forces loyal to Quamzin were raiding cities near Macross City for supplies on foot and using cars... and that's in Alaska.

 

3 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

(as seen in SDFM) and the oceans (as seen in DYRL) are still more or less okay? 

No, Earth was basically a write-off... it seems like the only reasons Humanity didn't simply abandon it was because they didn't have enough ships right off the bat and didn't know about Eden yet.

Even as far as back as Macross Perfect Memory, it's indicated that the bombardment wiped out nearly all flora and fauna on the planet.  A few tiny pockets of life survived, but in practice the planet was rendered almost totally lifeless.  Perfect Memory suggests the bombardment was so intense it actually changed the axis of Earth's rotation, and agrees with later works that it radically changed the composition of the atmosphere and the global climate.  Later works (e.g. Macross Chronicle) added more detail like that it kicked up so much dust and debris that the air was basically unbreathable, much of the oceans evaporated, the global average temperature jumped by six degrees centigrade to 21C with ongoing global warming occurring due to elevated carbon dioxide levels and almost no plant life to process it, apocalyptic levels of air and soil pollution, etc.

It took drastic measures to make Earth even marginally habitable again, including installing a massive orbital sunshade to slow global warming down, deploying designer bacteria to correct the atmospheric composition in place of the wiped out plant and plankton species, cleanup of radioactive contamination, cloning animals back into existence using the captured cloning technology of the Zentradi, etc. 

The damage is so severe that it's indicated it'll take ten thousand years or more to restore Earth to something like its prewar state.  The restoration efforts are said to be going well, to the point that plants have been found growing outside of cultivated areas, so those patches of forest are probably still around but they're a tiny exception in what is otherwise an enormous desert.

[cheemingwan1234]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's a Robotech-ism... I don't believe Macross ever specifies where the small forested area Quamzin found his derelict ship was.  Probably not that far away, considering that the forces loyal to Quamzin were raiding cities near Macross City for supplies on foot and using cars... and that's in Alaska.

 

No, Earth was basically a write-off... it seems like the only reasons Humanity didn't simply abandon it was because they didn't have enough ships right off the bat and didn't know about Eden yet.

Even as far as back as Macross Perfect Memory, it's indicated that the bombardment wiped out nearly all flora and fauna on the planet.  A few tiny pockets of life survived, but in practice the planet was rendered almost totally lifeless.  Perfect Memory suggests the bombardment was so intense it actually changed the axis of Earth's rotation, and agrees with later works that it radically changed the composition of the atmosphere and the global climate.  Later works (e.g. Macross Chronicle) added more detail like that it kicked up so much dust and debris that the air was basically unbreathable, much of the oceans evaporated, the global average temperature jumped by six degrees centigrade to 21C with ongoing global warming occurring due to elevated carbon dioxide levels and almost no plant life to process it, apocalyptic levels of air and soil pollution, etc.

It took drastic measures to make Earth even marginally habitable again, including installing a massive orbital sunshade to slow global warming down, deploying designer bacteria to correct the atmospheric composition in place of the wiped out plant and plankton species, cleanup of radioactive contamination, cloning animals back into existence using the captured cloning technology of the Zentradi, etc. 

The damage is so severe that it's indicated it'll take ten thousand years or more to restore Earth to something like its prewar state.  The restoration efforts are said to be going well, to the point that plants have been found growing outside of cultivated areas, so those patches of forest are probably still around but they're a tiny exception in what is otherwise an enormous desert.

Bummer. So much for those humans and other life on Earth left behind

 

[sketchley]

Here's the Macross Chronicle article detailing the effects, and the (ongoing) cleanup measures: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/15aNatureRegenerationProject.php

And the complimenting article about the Earth (generally describing the state just before and during SWI): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRworldguide/03aEarth.php

The key statement in the latter article is "Much of the planet has become a wasteland, but cities were built by those who survived."

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Bummer. So much for those humans and other life on Earth left behind

Earth's not going to win any awards for "best garden party venue" anytime soon, but with the most advanced technology and most robust economy in the New UN Government it's not exactly an awful place to live.

It's still going to take thousands of years, but Humanity is still basically speedrunning the process of recreating the pre-war environmental and ecological conditions on the planet thanks to a combination of the cloning technology obtained from the Zentradi and the gene and seed banks created in anticipation of an environmental disaster.  Perfect Memory suggested that they started cloning extinct animals back into being relatively quickly, though later material suggests they mainly focused on plant life early on and that Earth pets like dogs are still rare and valuable animals into the 2060s.

[RaisingCane]

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

The key statement in the latter article is "Much of the planet has become a wasteland, but cities were built by those who survived."

Which makes me wonder how many actually survived.  Not just the initial bombardment, but also the aftermath.

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Earth pets like dogs are still rare and valuable animals into the 2060s.

A world without dogs?! Truly horrible.