The protagonist you like the least

[ff95gj]

It's not so much as if Sheryl felt it, as to the fact that Ranka delivered it. Also, mind everyone, I also disliked it when Sheryl slapped Ranka, but Ranka had it coming because she was refusing to defend people when she knew she can. Because she was romantically heart-broken. It's the traditional "wake up call", though I sure wished she only shouted at Ranka and not hit her. But when Ranka slapped Sheryl, what kind of wake up call is that? A wake up call to a person who has done everything she can, then is now giving up as she is near death? There was nothing in any Macross series (even within Macross F itself) that made me really annoyed of a specific action. That it was Ranka who pulled it off makes people think I'm just rooting for Sheryl in the love triangle, but truly, it's not. It felt wrong to me on so many different levels.

I also ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to accept that slapping people is a mark of a grown woman motivating another. It is childish at best.

That was an absurd moment for me too. It's not about loving Sheryl (which I do) and disliking Ranka (which I don't); just that slapping someone sick to death is... absurd.

"What do you mean you are sick? Now wake up and get to work you lazy bitch!"

[Fortress_Maximus]

I too voted for Ranka simply b/c she was throughout the entire series living in denial and spineless. She constantly needed an emotional crutch; she was always relying on people including but not limited to: Ozma, Sheryl, Alto, her brother, and even her manager. I do not simply fault her for maturing due to replying so heavily on others, but it was the fact Ranka did not take responsibility for herself. IMO without Sheryl specifically Ranka would have remained a student continuing to wander aimlessly in life. Come on grow a brain and a backbone child. Ranka much like Alto ran away, constantly avoiding her problems and past a lot. These challenges were areas of concern that Sheryl consciously overcame, in contrast to Ranka she developed a strong backbone built on years of experience and strength of character. These qualities IMO remain lacking Ranka even by the end of Frontier.

Furthermore, in the specific situation where Ranka slapped Sheryl, I concur this really showed how immature Ranka was. Sheryl had clawed her way back from rock bottom but was deadly ill. She already reached and exceeded her physical and emotional limits. But the "best" Ranka could do to motivate her "idol" was to slap her? How does that possibly show maturity let alone respect?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Fortress_Maximus

[Mr March]

I can understand hate for Basara, Shin, Sara and Hibiki. I might not agree with some of those characters being labeled "worst", but I can understand hate for them and why some would vote against them. What has me baffled is the storm of hate against Ranka. Ranka is a weak character for certain, but she is more a non-entity than she is anything else. I've not a clue what Ranka has done to somehow justify a level of hate typically reserved for the Worst of Anime Alumni (Basara, Shinji, Heero, etc). She's marginal at best, neither developing in any particularly praiseworthy way nor committing a crime so serious as to condemn her character. Ranka's crime is breeding indifference or a dislike due to apathy that a weak character like her typically invokes. But this landslide voting result has me surprised. I guess I'm just not seeing it.

[VFTF1]

in contrast to Ranka she developed a strong backbone built on years of experience and strength of character.

That and having her entire career bankrolled and created for her by a corporation also helped.

Now - I am not saying Sheryl was not a strong character, but let's face it - a lot of her strength came from having the world handed to her on a platter. In fact, when push came to shove - she was weak and powerless. She thought Alto was dead, her whole world fell apart, and she was crushed by the knowledge that she was infected by a deadly virus.

In comes Ranka to slap some sense back into her. It wasn't a "get back to work lazy bitch!" slap. It was a "hey! You're Sheryl - Sheryl Nome! I admired you for being strong - so - be strong!" slap.

Besides -Ranka was just imitating Sheryl, who she admired, and administering Sheryl's own medicine to her.

But this landslide voting result has me surprised. I guess I'm just not seeing it.

I dunno.

There is some consistency in the voting, since Sara is running a close second to Ranka, and her only crime was being right about what would happen to her civilization if they adopted the ways of cities, holding a romantic view of life, being awesomely in love with Shin and then sacrificing her life to save human kind.

Although it could be worse.

At least Misa is loosing this one

Pete

[mike_s_6]

Now - I am not saying Sheryl was not a strong character, but let's face it - a lot of her strength came from having the world handed to her on a platter.

I'm sure it boosted her morale to be supported by someone. But it was suddenly pulled from under her feet with death looming behind her as a consequence, by a person who she dearly trusted, leaving her reeling in confusion and pain. What she did after that, after gathering herself, is the mark of real strength.

[Valkyrie addict]

Basara & Mao

[Mr March]

I dunno.

There is some consistency in the voting, since Sara is running a close second to Ranka, and her only crime was being right about what would happen to her civilization if they adopted the ways of cities, holding a romantic view of life, being awesomely in love with Shin and then sacrificing her life to save human kind.

Although it could be worse.

At least Misa is loosing this one

Pete

Plot can be abused as a crutch for justifying even the worst characters. After all, each are heroes according to plot.

I just don't understand the Ranka hate and I don't find it consistent at all. Ranka is as annoying as Minmay, but certainly no worse. Plot doesn't have Ranka doing anything overly offensive. Her character design is passable. She's not written extreme enough to inspire any devoted love or venomous hatred. Ranka is not written to be polarizing; she's written to be mediocre. I could understand hatred against Myung or Sheryl more than I can understand hatred against Ranka. People are obviously reading something more into Ranka than what is on the page. Maybe it's her link to moe or some such. But taken within just the context of Macross Frontier, I'm not seeing it. I mean just look at the votes: Ranka is categorized as the Basara of the female Macross characters. WTF?

Anyway, I suppose it's really no big deal, but I just find myself curious why Ranka attracts so much hate for such a thin, forgettable character.

[VFTF1]

Well - I can see how Ranka can be polarizing. I mean... look - you say she's written as a mediocre character, but think back - or take a look back - at the episode-by-episode commentary on MW when we were all watching Macross Frontier as it came in (I usually chimed in a weak late and didn't read the threads till I'd watched an episode so as not to be spoiled)...

What is clear from those threads is that the Sheryl vs. Ranka "battle" was pretty intense. There was no venom and it's not like we had flame wars - but the emotions were pretty high. I remember being so in love with Ranka while other people were really hot on Sheryl. And it's not just on the basis of looks - it's on the basis of character, songs, behavior.

I remember Ranka got a lot of negativity for being Moe, and people would attack her for being lolicon. People were aggravated that she commanded so much attention in the series as opposed to the more mature character (Sheryl).

I personally loved her in spite of her being a lolicon. I'm not usually into younger girls. In fact, all of my girlfriends have always been 4 to 11 years OLDER than me in real life. And every single time I tried hitting on younger girls I was summarily rebuffed. Younger girls hate my gutts and I can't seem to find myself at all interested in them or attracted to them... I'm generalizing of course - but suffice it to say that strangely enough the generalization has held up in real life - and also in anime where I always like the older girl better.

The exception is Macross Frontier.

Why?

Because of the passion and beauty of Ranka's songs. As a girl, she was immature - but she was also a dreamer and when she sang, it was with the powre of a very mature self-aware beaitiful and intense woman. In this, she was so much better than Minmei even, because Minmey initially was just a "regular" kind of folksy idol. Her songs were full of gush. Ranka's songs are dead serious even though Ranka herself is a bit dittzy. Also - I really liked her determination.

And you know who else liked her?

Sheryl.

Finally, Ranka is a beautiful girl and has a lot of heart and grace.

But again - I think lots of people couldn't get past her being this little lolicon that keeps taking up screen time. And then, when it turned out that Ranka had a power that Sheryl didn't and then Ranka was suddenly the MAIN character and focal point of the show - it just sent people off the deep edge.

I dunno - I think if you want to find the reasons - just read over those threads. It's all there. Again - and this is a testamony to how cool MW is - these debates about Ranka and Sheryl were all civil - it's not like we were flaming each other - but heck - I remember we had like 6 "Ranka vs. Sheryl" polls per day "Whos music is better?" "who should Alto be with?" "who would you prefer to sleep with?" "who would you marry?" "Who is cooler?" "Who sings beter?" and on and on and on.

So - I'm not surprised that some of that intensity is shining through in this vote still.

Pete

[Beltane70]

I'm totally with you Mr March. I don't understand all the Ranka hate, either.

[Max Jenius]

I don't necessarily hate Shin/Sara.. I nothing them. Whenever I saw them, I just wanted them to get back to Roy.

I almost voted for Silvie because by the time I saw M2, her archetype had become cliche to me. Then I saw Ranka & remembered all the /facepalm-ing I did every time she was on screen. Just something about her... I'd have to watch again to put my finger on it.

I voted Hibiki, but after seeing some peoples' thoughts on Isamu it's a tough call.

BTW- Minmay & Misa need to be split up into dyrl & sdf sections because Minmay is a different person in dyrl for the most part.

[Bri]

I think part of the hate directed at Ranka and Basara is that they symbolize what people hate about Macross Frontier and Macross 7. Ranka is the cute clumsy character which is a cliche in many romantic comedy anime of the last decade. The dislike for introducing those popular "moe" like behaviour in Frontier turns part of the Macross fans off. Same with Basara, he is the prototype hotbooded Super Robot pilot. It's not so much his personality that is the problem but that he is a superrobot type character in a real robot universe. I'm sure that part of the people who hate Basara do not hate Kamina in Gurren Lagan.

So don''t think its so surprising that miss Moe and mr Super robot top the charts.

[VFTF1]

I kind of agree with Bri - but I am surprised by one thing...

Who ever said Macross was a purely real robot show? I mean - if anything, the series mixes elements of both super and real robots... I mean.... I dunno...that's sort of provided for with the idea of a 16 year old in a skimpy mini skirt singing and thereby defeating a fleet of dimmension hoping super aliens...

Or another way of putting it... while I understand the reason why there was and still is a tangible difference between super and real robot shows...I think that more and more the two are being mixed and that Macross was one of the first shows to do this very explicitly...

I mean...without Basara...just what was Macross 7 supposed to be about? Would people have prefered that it simply not have been produced? Maybe...

I guess Macross plus was a more "realistic" treatment of music - although the concept is still more suited to a super robot show because in the Macross universe music is this funadmentaly important thing that everyone reveres and that has the power to move mountains, planets, people's hearts...you get the picture...

I dunno. I'm just wierd. My favorite characters are Shinji, Basara, Ranka... heck... in Gurren Lagann I admire Kamina's tenacity and his one liners - but I really like Simon and identify more with him on an emotional level...

Maybe anime is just structured so that there's something for everyone in it? ...

But I wonder...what alternative to Basara would his detractors propose? Or is it just a case of "just don't make Macross 7 period."

Pete

[Gubaba]

But I wonder...what alternative to Basara would his detractors propose? Or is it just a case of "just don't make Macross 7 period."

Judging from past responses, it seems like a lot of people would've liked a drastically reduced emphasis on music, and much more focus on the military.

Because, I guess, there are just TOO MANY robot shows about rock bands, and not enough about soldiers.

[Bri]

Doubt there are any "pure" super or real robot shows anymore. Even the later Gundams start to incorporate super robot elements. Don't know if its the lack of realism or maybe the lack of seriousness that turns some people of Macross 7. It's a good question to ask

Also if Macross had been more real robot the focus would probably been on the mini skirt over the music to subjugate the aliens

Edited September 13, 2009 by Bri

[VFTF1]

Judging from past responses, it seems like a lot of people would've liked a drastically reduced emphasis on music, and much more focus on the military

Well... meaning absolutely no offense and not intending for this to create bad blood, flames or lynch mobs but...

Wouldn't that basically mean that people would prefer for Macross to be more like Robotech?

I mean - for me personally, what makes Macross superior as a story to Robotech is precisely what Bassara haters seem to want less of - namely music, and more precisely - the idea of music as a peaceful weapon that can change the hearts of the enemies and is itself part of a broader weapon - namely culture.

I mean, if you'll note - and again no offense - particularly to active or past millitary folks - but Macross has a pretty low opinion of the military in general. In SDFM TV, the UN spacey government is shown to be a bunch of corrupt politicians who lie to the populace telling them the Macross was destroyed by an alien invasion - and using that as a pretext to take tyranical power over the entire Earth, and presumably using Over Technology to tyranize people. In Macross Plus, the military treats pilots as little more than fodder and opts for drones rather than valkyries with pilots in them. In Macross 7, the military grudgingly concludes that music can be an effective weapon, but predictably misses the point that music is something that comes from love and the heart rather than something that can be ordered. Jamming Birds is the military version of Fire Bomber, and they fail because art does not come about from training and discipline without heart. In Macross Frontier, the military is a failing beauracry that lacks motivation and moral, and their job is taken over by the private sector which is more efficient due to the existence of real measures of success and failure (a price mechanism) instead of a budget that has everything to do with political pull rather than a real cost/benefit analysis.

Naturally, this in no way detracts from the bravery of individual soldiers and pilots in Macross, or the nobility of their intentions - protecting civilians, protecting Earth, protecting their families. And it also does not mean that corruption and evil don't exist outside the military - even in the realm of music and art (Sharon Apple, Grace...just to name two examples. Honey could also be an example of the moral corruption of celebrity...when art becomes "just another business" - the bottom line gets in the way of producing true works of passion)...

But...all of these sophisticated elements are nicely non-existant in Robotech - particularly in the Shadow Chronicles which seems not to deal with things like economic scarcity, politics, show business, art vs. business, military discipline vs. noble aims of defending civilians...

I mean... maybe I can say it this way -

I understand the hatred of Basara and it doesn't bother me - so long as it's not a hatred of Macross 7. Then I get puzzled. Because - you see - I can understand how within the context of the story - people could really hate Basara or at least find him annoying. That's just part of his character. But it doesn't make the story bad, it actually makes the story more interersting.

Without such characters - what would we have left? Well - we'd have Robotech.

I mean - in Robotech...who are the memorable characters?

Who do I remember from Shadow CHronicles? Nobody. I don't even remember their names.

I remember the guy who got killed because the main character's friend needs to die to make the story more realistic and gritty.

I remember the sexy invid girl with the red hair who needs to be sexy and needs to be an alien so we don't know whether we want to bang her or blow her brains out which creates dramatic tension.

I also remember the Cameo crowd: the Regis, Rick Hunter, Vince Grant - these are iconic Robotech names that had to make appearances just like Optimus Prime had to be red, turn into a truck and be voiced by Peter Cullen.

I also remember Janice - who is impossible to forget on account of her heartwarming rendition of We Will Win...(I hope you catch the sarcasm oozing out of that sentence)....

Fine.

But did I walk away from that show loving OR hating any of the characters? Nope.

I am indiferent towards them. It's just a bunch of military guys fighting a bunch of alien dudes. Boom. Bang. Hey look, not all aliens are evil - some of them can change their shapes from red lobster like creatures into sexy red heads which makes it ok. Oh - and by the way - Victory is what you make it so just take it we will win. La la la.

And that's it...

But...

I can't believe THAT'S what Basara detractors are reall out for?

I mean - most Macross fans who dislike Basara DO enjoy Minmei and her music - right?... They wouldn't want Minmei to get cut from SDFM TV? They wouldn't want DYRL to end with the introduction of the VF-1S Super Duper Valkyrie piloted by Rick Hunter who flies in to the enemy base and single handedly destroys Boldoza? They wouldn't want to cut Oboeteimatsuka?

So.. it's hard for me to buy the "because they don't like music in Macross" argument - since Macross is so very much about the music. Heck - even in Macross Plus, where the music was - true - way more demure... it was only because the story demanded it, since the theme was about how music could be used for evil as well as good, and become corrupted...

Besides - from all of the debates we've had - I've read a number of carefully concieved arguments against Basara - most of them siding with Gamlin and the notion that Basara got in the way, endagered lives, that Planet Dance sucked or was played too often, that Basara was a jerk to everybody, that he was pompous etc etc etc...

I never came across anybody arguing "Basara sucks because music in general in Macross sucks and they should get rid of it and focus on mecha ripping eachother up."

I dunno... maybe I'm wrong.

But if Mr. March is scratching his head over Ranka getting such a big "hate" vote... well... I'm STILL not clear about why people really don't like Basara? Except for the "too much planet dance" argument...none of the others seem to resonate

Pete

[Killer Robot]

I can understand hate for Basara, Shin, Sara and Hibiki. I might not agree with some of those characters being labeled "worst", but I can understand hate for them and why some would vote against them. What has me baffled is the storm of hate against Ranka. Ranka is a weak character for certain, but she is more a non-entity than she is anything else. I've not a clue what Ranka has done to somehow justify a level of hate typically reserved for the Worst of Anime Alumni (Basara, Shinji, Heero, etc). She's marginal at best, neither developing in any particularly praiseworthy way nor committing a crime so serious as to condemn her character. Ranka's crime is breeding indifference or a dislike due to apathy that a weak character like her typically invokes. But this landslide voting result has me surprised. I guess I'm just not seeing it.

I don't hate Ranka myself, and she's not my vote. She had a lot of generic moe features especially early on, but I suppose that's the era it's made in; she was really pushed as the special magic girl that everyone loved as soon as they met her and that had special powers, and was just tied to a destiny of stardom that no force could contain for a while. Granted, these things backed off after a while into something more sensible and better explained, and she grew on me as they did. Still, like some people can't shake the impression of Sheryl the first few episodes gave them, others can't shake the impression of Ranka the first half gave them.

Even if I like her all right, I felt the show was expecting me to love her, in a way that I wasn't expected to love earlier Macross protagonists, and in a way that her actual character didn't deliver. That's the sort of thing to inspire some backlash. Similarly, on the old Basara issue, many might like him better if he wasn't "pushed" so hard by being put in a world where things seem to fall just where they'll prove him awesome. Relatedly I suspect, though I don't know who it was, that whoever voted for Misa in this really just didn't think she was great and just gets tired seeing other fans hold her up as the perfect heroine to judge others by. A lot of people are ornery that way, when they felt they're being told how they should feel about a character.

So I think the high votes for Ranka are partly what's been said about reaction to the stylistic choices of Frontier in general that she gets blamed for, and partly for reaction to feeling she was expected to be the most-beloved. A third factor is that by and large most Macross heroines, even where they're a bit bland or inconstantly handled, aren't that broadly unlikable, so the votes have to go somewhere. So she's less hated than she is one of the weaker links.

Judging from past responses, it seems like a lot of people would've liked a drastically reduced emphasis on music, and much more focus on the military.

Because, I guess, there are just TOO MANY robot shows about rock bands, and not enough about soldiers.

This I think is really unfair. From the threads I've read, while there are a number of people who think for some reason Macross should always be some gritty war story, they're a minority. And even a lot of people who can't stand Macross 7 point out that they loved the music. Similarly, while they may protest guitar-controlled Valykries with guns that shoot speakers, that's not the same as protesting the main characters being rock stars and also pilots - it's protesting the particular way the two were combined. It's fairer to say that Macross 7 would be enjoyed by many of its detractors if the super robot aspect was less over the top, if Basara was either less over the top or at least sometimes had to self-examine and grow rather than just statically wait for the plot to prove him right, and if about ten episodes of stock footage battles and little plot development were chopped off the front of it. Which wouldn't even really cut the music since the same three songs got played as often as the same three VF-11s got blown up in that part of the show.

In short, even a lot of people who love Macross for more than being a war story still have made arguments for why it's got some deep flaws that would have been easy to avoid without breaking the character of the show.

[Fortress_Maximus]

Now - I am not saying Sheryl was not a strong character, but let's face it - a lot of her strength came from having the world handed to her on a platter. In fact, when push came to shove - she was weak and powerless. She thought Alto was dead, her whole world fell apart, and she was crushed by the knowledge that she was infected by a deadly virus.

In comes Ranka to slap some sense back into her. It wasn't a "get back to work lazy bitch!" slap. It was a "hey! You're Sheryl - Sheryl Nome! I admired you for being strong - so - be strong!" slap. Besides -Ranka was just imitating Sheryl, who she admired, and administering Sheryl's own medicine to her.

Exactly how did believing the man she loves is dead, after exceeding her physical and mental limits make her weak? I respectfully disagree. Quite the contrary, if anything Sheryl gave more of herself for others than any other lead female Macross character. Compared to Minmay, Ishtar, Myung, and Sara, Sheryl -consistently- performed professionally and inspired others. It is also important to remember Sheryl agreed to perform throughout the climatic battle under great personal levels of duress; she was far from "powerless and weak"! Furthermore, as you may recall Sheryl earlier hit rock bottom and she was deadly ill. The fact is Sheryl -already- picked herself up and grew stronger after being utterly betrayed by someone she deeply trusted. Isn't it true, if the situations were reversed Ranka would not be able to pick herself up? Somehow I doubt I am alone believing Ranka probably would run away from her problems.

I do not love Sheryl's character but I definitely respect her mental toughness. I wholeheartedly disagree that "...a lot of [sheryl's] strength came from having the world handed to her on a platter." Even though Grace selected her as a child and gave her opportunities others did not have, it is mainly through Sheryl's own inner strength, perseverance, and unyielding dedication to improve herself that she succeeded. And lets not forget these were the same strengths that enabled Sheryl to pick herself up after Grace betrayed her! If Sheryl was as weak and powerless as some claim, would she really have been to reinvented herself after hitting rock bottom?

Throughout Frontier Sheryl served as inspiration not only to Ranka but to many others as well. As I mentioned previously Ranka constantly needed an emotional crutch. If anything Ranka repeatedly showed through her deeds and words she was consistently weak and without any strong backbone/convictions of her own. Without the kindness of others around her she probably never would have had the courage to grow and stay on the path to become a professional singer. But lets not forget her true growth ALL started and continued b/c of Sheryl, period.

I never believe slapping is a positive form of motivation. Moreover, the situations were totally different when Sheryl slapped Ranka. As others have clearly indicated when Ranka was slapped by Sheryl, Ranka actually possessed "a power to positively bring about change". But Ranka was too selfish and self absorbed to give a damn about helping others. Sheryl was firm but demonstrated immense empathy and compassion at the same time. However, when Ranka slapped Sheryl, she was just tactless and did not demonstrate an ounce of empathy to the fact Sheryl was deathly ill. Sheryl already had exhausted herself performed during the battle to the best of her ability as the inspiration for "humanity". What exactly did Ranka accomplish?

Lastly, I would like to forget Ranka entirely but the creative staff simply do not let us allow to forget her unmemorable character. Far too much time is dedicated to her and for better or worse the issues I have with Ranka are deeply rooted to her extremely weak character having far too much importance placed on her.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Fortress_Maximus

[Gubaba]

This I think is really unfair. From the threads I've read, while there are a number of people who think for some reason Macross should always be some gritty war story, they're a minority. And even a lot of people who can't stand Macross 7 point out that they loved the music. Similarly, while they may protest guitar-controlled Valykries with guns that shoot speakers, that's not the same as protesting the main characters being rock stars and also pilots - it's protesting the particular way the two were combined. It's fairer to say that Macross 7 would be enjoyed by many of its detractors if the super robot aspect was less over the top, if Basara was either less over the top or at least sometimes had to self-examine and grow rather than just statically wait for the plot to prove him right, and if about ten episodes of stock footage battles and little plot development were chopped off the front of it. Which wouldn't even really cut the music since the same three songs got played as often as the same three VF-11s got blown up in that part of the show.

In short, even a lot of people who love Macross for more than being a war story still have made arguments for why it's got some deep flaws that would have been easy to avoid without breaking the character of the show.

You're right, of course.

I based my assessment off of arguments that you used to hear A LOT about six or seven years ago (really...go back and look at the Macross 7 topics from the beginning of these boards...generally a couple of people will articulate the point I mentioned). But that argument has been showing up less and less as time has gone on. And usually, if it does come, it comes from someone who watched Robotech recently. loved it, and just now is trying out Macross.

So yeah...these days, it's definitely a minority viewpoint.

[VFTF1]

It is also important to remember Sheryl agreed to perform throughout the climatic battle under great personal levels of duress; she was far from "powerless and weak"!

Sheryl agreed to be Leon's pawn without really giving a whole lot of thought to whether she wasn't going to serve some evil purpose and be exploited for evil ends again - even though it just recently happened to her. She agreed to be Leon's pawn partially because she thought by doing so she'd get revenge against Grace, and partially because Alto (Sheryl's crutch) convinced her that she was meant to sing independent of the tragic truth behind her career. I'm sure that she also thought she was helping people cope - the scene in the bunker where she sings and calms the people was very moving. Still, it's one thing to sing and help innocent civilians. It's another thing to naively believe that a politician who was allied with the cybord that exploited you, lied to you, and effectively attempted to murder you is going to now use you for the benefit of humanity.

Speaking of Alto, he decided that the Vajra needed to be whiped out and that he would "kill Ranka" if that were necessary to accomplish the task. He also decided to fire on Ozma and blindly obey orders to bring the Macross Quarter and its' pirate crew back. I'd say that makes both of them "powerless and weak" as compared to Ranka who had the backbone to go with Brera to discover the truth about the Vajra, and who also had the strength and courage to trust Ai-kun and Ozma, Wilder, Cathy, Boby and the Quarter crew who had the same courage to seek out the truth rather than be pawns.

it is mainly through Sheryl's own inner strength, perseverance, and unyielding dedication to improve herself that she succeeded. And lets not forget these were the same strengths that enabled Sheryl to pick herself up after Grace betrayed her! If Sheryl was as weak and powerless as some claim, would she really have been to reinvented herself after hitting rock bottom?

Regarding that first sentence... how do we know this? All we know is that Sheryl was an orphan, and then she was taken in by Grace. I am presuming that she went from being a starving orphan to being someone who didn't have to worry about things like food, a warm place to sleep. Someone who got music lessons, a good education, and was from an early age groomed to be a songstress. Now, of course I have no doubt that Sheryl had a lot of inner strength, perseverence and unyielding dedication to improve herself - but the foundation of that strength was the economic safety afforded to her by Grace.

Regarding the second part of that sentence - you write that we should not forget that "these were the same strengths that enabled Sheryl to pick herself up after Grace betrayed her."

Really?

I seem to remember Sheryl walking around in the rain, seeing her CDs going for 50% off, eventually falling down, weak and crying, taken into custody by Alto's "brother" and given shelter at Alto's father's house where she was given warm quarters, dry clothes and safety. I also remember Alto breaking his pledge never to set foot back at his father's place to go and see Sheryl and to comfort her, convince her that she had to go back to singing and give her support. I then remember Alto and Sheryl practically living together, having a romantic dinner and enjoying their company.

So - to use your language - Alto was Sheryl's "crutch."

Now - I will grant that Ranka had many "crutches" as well - mainly Nanase on a practical level, then Alto on an emotional level, and even Sheryl herself - who was very kind hearted to take an interest in Ranka and encourage her.

But then again, I would never argue that Ranka didn't have a "crutch" - it's kind of hard for me to imagine a good protagonist that doesn't rely on others - friends, lovers, family... Ranka had a lot of people rooting for her. Heck - even Micheal helped her out with his "can you sing like that guy by the escalator?" speech...

The problem is - I think you're viewing Sheryl through the lense of her PR. Her "I'm tough! I'm Sheryl Nome!" image. But it's just an act. It's all part of her act. In real life she's also a weak woman who needs people. For a long time, she could act like she didn't need anyone because she had Grace. But then she still needed a man - enter Alto. Then she needed a little protege. Oh - enter Ranka.

Then, when all of that fell apart, she desperately needed someone - and again enter Alto as someone who took care of her.

Finally - she needed to sing, and needed to have the thrill of being able to move crowds and influence people.

Ranka needed all of this too of course - and in many ways the two girls are very similar to one another.

But there's one big difference:

Ranka also needed the truth.

And for that, she was willing to cast everything behind - to do what Sheryl could only verbally articulate and pretend to do in creating her image: namely to give up everything and follow her heart for better or for worse.

That's something that Sheryl could ultimately never do - which is why she let herself be exploited not once (Grace) but twice (Leon), and why she didn't even TRY to convince Alto that fighting wasn't the way to go, let alone "killing Ranka" [meanwhile Ranka pleaded with Alto to recognize that the Vajra could also be looked at as individuals. When Alto said "they killed Micheal!," Ranka said "but not this one" - see... it's the humans who came up with the theory that the Vajra have no individual consciousness and are just one big hive. But... who says that's true? Ai-kun seems to have liked Ranka, and not just because she was the "queen" - after all - he didn't pounce on Alto, didn't do anything violent to him. Ai-kun seemed to have assimilated or learned that Ranka as a human was not dangerous but was his friend.

In any event - going to that planet was brave and confronting the Vajra on her own was brave.

Speaking of brave - Brera and Sheryl were both exploited by Grace. Brera went with Ranka to discover the truth instead of just suddenly becoming a Frontier-Drone following Leon against Galaxy after being a Galaxy-drone following Grace.

Sheryl didn't have the stomach to stake out that path.

I never believe slapping is a positive form of motivation. Moreover, the situations were totally different when Sheryl slapped Ranka. As others have clearly indicated when Ranka was slapped by Sheryl, Ranka actually possessed "a power to positively bring about change". But Ranka was too selfish and self absorbed to give a damn about helping others. Sheryl was firm but demonstrated immense empathy and compassion at the same time. However, when Ranka slapped Sheryl, she was just tactless and did not demonstrate an ounce of empathy to the fact Sheryl was deathly ill. Sheryl already had exhausted herself performed during the battle to the best of her ability as the inspiration for "humanity". What exactly did Ranka accomplish?

So - slapping is "never" a postive form of motivation, except when Sheryl is doing the slapping?

As for what Ranka accomplished - first; I think she didn't need to demonstrate empathy since she knew she could cure Sheryl. What she needed to demonstrate was firmness in the face of Sheryl's despair. See - this scene was basically a surprising climax - because the "student" had become wiser than the "teacher" and needed to teach "the teacher" a few things. Sheryl, like most people on Frontier, had become blinded by fear, hatred and the desire for revenge. She wasted her songs and her talents serving the wrong cause (again).

Ranka showed her that no matter how many mistakes she'd made - she was still someone who could feel good about themselves and deserved to be redeemed.

After all - that's Ranka's whole theme: like Bassara, she doesn't make it a point to say "ha ha - you were wrong." She wants EVERYONE to get along and she loves everyone - the Vajra, Ai-Kun, Alto, Ozma, Sheryl... all of them. She ventures out to discover the truth because she sees that everyone she loves is becoming lost in endless violence and hate and that even her music is becoming an instrument in a war she hates.

Not saying that this all means that Sheryl is "weak" and not "strong" - but just that all of the things that Sheryl can be blamed for - Ranka can also be blamed for.

All of the things Sheryl can be praised for - so can Ranka.

The only difference is that Ranka can also be praised for something Sheryl can't be praised for: namely Ranka actually did what Sheryl only projected herself as doing in her PR - namely she took a strong, independent stand - a very strange and unconventional one. She decided to go with her green friend Ai-kun to the Vajra home world and try to bring peace and end the war.

Yes - true - Alto rescued her and discovered Grace's ultimate deception - I am NOT trying to cast any of these characters as being bad... they are all very interdependent on eachother actually... but in the end...all Alto did was discover that - hey - Ranka was right. And Sheryl made the same discovery.

Maybe what irks people is that the series did end up basically establishing Ranka Lee as the Songstress of the Universe - not Sheryl Nome...

or at least that's how I read it But I'm biased on behalf of the little green haired girl

Pete

[Killer Robot]

But there's one big difference:

Ranka also needed the truth.

And for that, she was willing to cast everything behind - to do what Sheryl could only verbally articulate and pretend to do in creating her image: namely to give up everything and follow her heart for better or for worse.

That's something that Sheryl could ultimately never do - which is why she let herself be exploited not once (Grace) but twice (Leon), and why she didn't even TRY to convince Alto that fighting wasn't the way to go, let alone "killing Ranka" [meanwhile Ranka pleaded with Alto to recognize that the Vajra could also be looked at as individuals. When Alto said "they killed Micheal!," Ranka said "but not this one" - see... it's the humans who came up with the theory that the Vajra have no individual consciousness and are just one big hive. But... who says that's true? Ai-kun seems to have liked Ranka, and not just because she was the "queen" - after all - he didn't pounce on Alto, didn't do anything violent to him. Ai-kun seemed to have assimilated or learned that Ranka as a human was not dangerous but was his friend.

In any event - going to that planet was brave and confronting the Vajra on her own was brave.

Speaking of brave - Brera and Sheryl were both exploited by Grace. Brera went with Ranka to discover the truth instead of just suddenly becoming a Frontier-Drone following Leon against Galaxy after being a Galaxy-drone following Grace.

Sheryl didn't have the stomach to stake out that path.

I think here you're confusing bravery with acting on unique knowledge. The crew of the Macross Quarter not being duped by Leon was not because they were braver than others, but because they had learned of Leon's betrayal, for example through discovering President Glass' assassination. Certainly they were brave enough in their execution of many things, but can you expect others to have acted on that knowledge others did not have? Similarly, Ranka uniquely had seen that there might be more to the Vajra than mindless bugs, and she alone was the one who felt literal pain when they were destroyed. Of course she was the one to question if the war could be ended by more than one side's annihilation. And it was certainly brave of her to strike out for the Vajra homeworld, not least because it was a rejection of just doing what she was told to do. Brave and foolish, since she was being duped herself: it was an act that would have sealed the fate of Frontier, the Vajra, and likely the galaxy itself had she not been rescued again by Alto and Sheryl. In any case, someone who lacked her unique knowledge can't be blamed for not acting upon it. Everyone, villains aside, was doing the best they could to help, but based on what they knew. The people who weren't tricked were the ones who had found the right clues, not those simply of greater moral fiber.

As for what Sheryl did, it's not like she stood by either. She didn't throw everything away, no - she had it taken from her forcibly, but then got up and decided to use what she had to help how she could. Singing in the shelter or at charity performances after just to keep spirits up, then accepting the chance to take Ranka's place as a defense against the Vajra, devoting what remained of her life to helping her newly adopted home and to winning a war that she personally had no known chance of surviving. Even if the war itself was an act of secret manipulation, I can't say there wasn't bravery, strength, and devotion in her actions. And yes, she did speak out against killing Ranka. When Alto came to her before the battle to say that whatever happened he would be back to her side, Sheryl's answer was that she would speak more with him after he brought Ranka home safe. She had every reason to think Ranka was a traitor, and to fear that Alto still loved Ranka more than her, but she still had faith in her friend, and she didn't want to leave Alto alone.

In any case, I think both characters were admirable enough. They did foolish or childish things, when they didn't know better especially, but they did some really brave and devoted ones too. The key in it all is that no one in the setting is independent, no one can make it alone, but just the same people can be strong. Ranka had friends: she had to learn to assert herself and be strong. Alto had friends: he just had to learn to open up and let them complete him. Sheryl was alone: she had to learn that she wasn't an island that didn't need anyone else. They all had a lot of growing to do, but in the end achieved it.

[mike_s_6]

Alto as Sheryl's "crutch": That's enough, you're sick, stop pretending to be strong!

Sheryl: No, I will sing! Because it's the only thing I can do!

It takes little to take physical things from a person, but so much to take away the foundation that truly creates a person's character.

If Sheryl was depending on Alto too much, she'd hold onto every word that he says, which is not the case. The person she considered her friend? Gone. Her career which she was so proud of? Gone, and was shown to be just a sham. Sure she held on to Alto for a while, but in the end, she asked him to leave her and save a person who seems to be her romantic rival. Now, Alto might not be gone, but she still set him free (at this, I pointedly thought, "what a woman!"). I was also glad when Ranka did the same towards the end and stopped clinging to Alto's words, which was what I was expecting from her. All in all, I believe Ranka was an good character, whose motives I sympathize with, but then I thought the same of most of the other girls on the list. Then the slapping happened and personally, it was quite an emotional trigger that's why I can't forget it!

[Gubaba]

Alto as Sheryl's "crutch": That's enough, you're sick, stop pretending to be strong!

Sheryl: No, I will sing! Because it's the only thing I can do!

It takes little to take physical things from a person, but so much to take away the foundation that truly creates a person's character.

If Sheryl was depending on Alto too much, she'd hold onto every word that he says, which is not the case. The person she considered her friend? Gone. Her career which she was so proud of? Gone, and was shown to be just a sham. Sure she held on to Alto for a while, but in the end, she asked him to leave her and save a person who seems to be her romantic rival. Now, Alto might not be gone, but she still set him free (at this, I pointedly thought, "what a woman!"). I was also glad when Ranka did the same towards the end and stopped clinging to Alto's words, which was what I was expecting from her. All in all, I believe Ranka was an good character, whose motives I sympathize with, but then I thought the same of most of the other girls on the list. Then the slapping happened and personally, it was quite an emotional trigger that's why I can't forget it!

The problem with the slapping is that I'm pretty certain it was simply an homage to DYRL, when Hikaru slaps Minmay. AS AN HOMAGE, I found it rather satisfying (as in "Wow! I wasn't expecting them to reference THAT scene!"), but as part of the story...well, I guess I can understand why they threw it in, but I don't think the story would've suffered if they'd left it out.

Still, imagine the furor if they'd had Alto slap either girl. That may have been okay in the Japan of 1984, but I think it would've been reprehensible in 2008.

[dreamweaver13]

The problem with the slapping is that I'm pretty certain it was simply an homage to DYRL, when Hikaru slaps Minmay. AS AN HOMAGE, I found it rather satisfying (as in "Wow! I wasn't expecting them to reference THAT scene!"), but as part of the story...well, I guess I can understand why they threw it in, but I don't think the story would've suffered if they'd left it out.

Still, imagine the furor if they'd had Alto slap either girl. That may have been okay in the Japan of 1984, but I think it would've been reprehensible in 2008.

Let's face it, the Macross universe is one slap-happy place!

I must admit, even as an Irrational Sheryl Fanboy, Ranka's slap didn't come across as a despicable thing to do. At the time, I did see it as a parody of the DYRL minmay bitch slap. I say parody, because i saw the sheryl slap as a homage, but when ranka made it a point to settle the score, i found it funny. I honestly felt that the writers were intentionally making a funny.

But now that Mike_s_6 has pointed it out, and removing myself from the "homage/parody" perspective, let me be in character and exclaim, "Shame on you Ranka! What you did was utterly despicable and inexcusable! SHAME!!!"

[Gubaba]

Let's face it, the Macross universe is one slap-happy place!

I must admit, even as an Irrational Sheryl Fanboy, Ranka's slap didn't come across as a despicable thing to do. At the time, I did see it as a parody of the DYRL minmay bitch slap. I say parody, because i saw the sheryl slap as a homage, but when ranka made it a point to settle the score, i found it funny. I honestly felt that the writers were intentionally making a funny.

But now that Mike_s_6 has pointed it out, and removing myself from the "homage/parody" perspective, let me be in character and exclaim, "Shame on you Ranka! What you did was utterly despicable and inexcusable! SHAME!!!"

And THAT'S why people hate Ranka!

Riddle solved!

[VFTF1]

And THAT'S why people hate Ranka!

Basara neve slapped anybody.

I think he punched somebody.

But he never slapped anybody...

Pete

[Gubaba]

Basara never slapped anybody.

And THAT'S why people hate Basara!

Riddle solved!

[dreamweaver13]

And THAT'S why people hate Basara!

Riddle solved!

LOL! The mystery is solved, what a revelation!

Waitaminute... i think you do have something there...

Hikaru slapped Minmay.

Isamu punched Myung.

Shin threatened Sara with a sharp stick.

Alto pushed Sheryl's face forcibly against a wall.

As for Basara... well, he did whine a lot.

[mike_s_6]

Isamu punched Myung.

That was an accident!!! I say inertia did it!

[Mr March]

I don't hate Ranka myself, and she's not my vote. She had a lot of generic moe features especially early on, but I suppose that's the era it's made in; she was really pushed as the special magic girl that everyone loved as soon as they met her and that had special powers, and was just tied to a destiny of stardom that no force could contain for a while. Granted, these things backed off after a while into something more sensible and better explained, and she grew on me as they did. Still, like some people can't shake the impression of Sheryl the first few episodes gave them, others can't shake the impression of Ranka the first half gave them.

So I think the high votes for Ranka are partly what's been said about reaction to the stylistic choices of Frontier in general that she gets blamed for, and partly for reaction to feeling she was expected to be the most-beloved. A third factor is that by and large most Macross heroines, even where they're a bit bland or inconstantly handled, aren't that broadly unlikable, so the votes have to go somewhere. So she's less hated than she is one of the weaker links.

That's not a bad explanation. I could follow some logic in that. I do consider Ranka a poorly written character, so maybe shes viewed as more poor than the rest. But again, I find it hard to distinguish her weaknesses as a poorly written character compared to other female Macross characters by such a degree that others do. Perhaps that might be because Ranka, by virtue of being created for Macross Frontier, is fresh in everyone's mind. I also very much enjoyed Macross Frontier as a series, so I suppose a lot of the typical complaints one experiences on message boards really rolled off while I was watching it. If I'm surprised by the Ranka hate, I'm going to take that as a good sign and I'm certainly not going back to re-read a lot of fanboy vitriol for fear of "missing out" on it (LOL ) I suppose I might also have to take into account the demographic of the voters. Ranka, despite my feeling that she's written roughly on par with other less impressive female Macross characters, might seem far more annoying to newer fans than to myself. Hell, after 25 years, Minmay still annoys me

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I've been debating responding to this thread, as these character debates tend to give me headaches. Heck, thinking over the reply last night and how long I could make it in my head was a touch nauseating. I'll try to keep it simple.

On the male side, I picked Alto. Not because I outright dislike Alto, but because of simple process of elimination. Aside from his more naive moments, I like Hikaru. Guld was awesome, and while Isamu was a touch full of himself, I still liked him. It's been so long since I watched Zero, it would be unfair to choose Shin, though I don't remember caring much for him. This same reason applies to the female characters, so i omitted Sara and Mao from the running as well (if memory serves, my favorite Zero girl was, of all people, Nora). Same goes with II. I barely even remember Hibiki. Heck, I think I forgot that that was his name. I've only seen about ten episodes of 7, so judging against Basara and Gamlin also seemed unfair. That, and Basara's kind of kooky.

So that leaves Alto. Of the four remaining, he's my least favorite. Namely due to his often thickheadedness and Kamille complex. He pretty much sabotaged the romantic aspect of the triangle outright (which is why I love the way it ended to pieces). Though he was a somewhat interesting character. Heck, I've cosplayed the guy. What really salvaged him was the observation that, despite running from acting, he always plays a "part". It wrapped up his action quite swimmingly.

I post on the female side a bit later when I've had a better chance to go over it. That said, nice thoughts VFTF1, Killer Robot.

[Keith]

And THAT'S why people hate Basara!

Riddle solved!

They're just jealous Basara had the best kiss in anime ever! Sivil in the alley complete with explosion & busted glasses was freakin' epic!!

[Gubaba]

They're just jealous Basara had the best kiss in anime ever! Sivil in the alley complete with explosion & busted glasses was freakin' epic!!

Yes, that was a great, great scene. Maybe one of the best in all of Mac7.

[VFTF1]

I've noted another amazing result in this poll.

Notice that the most popular and well loved male protagonist in Macross is...Gamlin!

Now - clearly this means people don't dislike Macross 7 - they just hate Basara.

But - why would people also hate Mylene, who happens to be tied in (4th?) place with Minmey, Mao and Sara?

Usually, when you like a protagonist, you also like what that protagonist likes... but in the case of Gamlin - his apparent popularity isn't enough to give Mylene a boost.

I have my theories on this - but... I wonder what you all think?

Pete

[Killer Robot]

I've noted another amazing result in this poll.

Notice that the most popular and well loved male protagonist in Macross is...Gamlin!

Now - clearly this means people don't dislike Macross 7 - they just hate Basara.

But - why would people also hate Mylene, who happens to be tied in (4th?) place with Minmey, Mao and Sara?

Usually, when you like a protagonist, you also like what that protagonist likes... but in the case of Gamlin - his apparent popularity isn't enough to give Mylene a boost.

I have my theories on this - but... I wonder what you all think?

Pete

There's a distinction between best loved and least hated. Gamlin is just generally inoffensive yet unexceptional, even though he has more character growth than most in the series, and even though he has hair like Dracula and a wardrobe like Mr. Rogers(who said that first?). I came to like him through the series, but I'd expect him to score low on either a favorite poll or a least favorite poll.

As for Mylene, she seems to be in the middle of the pack for females, or near enough that it's no big distance either way. I figure she scores on a mix of personal tastes and of people who hate Macross 7 enough to hate everything from it.

[dreamweaver13]

I've noted another amazing result in this poll.

Notice that the most popular and well loved male protagonist in Macross is...Gamlin!

Now - clearly this means people don't dislike Macross 7 - they just hate Basara.

But - why would people also hate Mylene, who happens to be tied in (4th?) place with Minmey, Mao and Sara?

Usually, when you like a protagonist, you also like what that protagonist likes... but in the case of Gamlin - his apparent popularity isn't enough to give Mylene a boost.

I have my theories on this - but... I wonder what you all think?

Pete

Just because he isn't unliked, doesn't mean he's loved. it could just mean he was totally forgettable. ("huh? who's Gamlin again? oh yeah, that one.he was... ok") or he just didn't merit any strong emotion, one way or another.

EDIT: What Killer Robot said.

Edited September 18, 2009 by dreamweaver13