The computer and electronics super geek thread

[David Hingtgen]

IIRC most electrical stuff is designed for +/- 10%. +/- 5% is "tight" tolerance. Anything tighter than that tends to be medical/military-grade etc. (this is why 110v vs 120v is never a factor)

So 11.1 vs 10.8 is only 3%.

[shiroikaze]

May pull the trigger on an Antec mini P180 (I probably could get it for $55 hopefully), but anyway...

Besides expandability, what else am I'm trading off when I choose a micro-ATX motherboard? I know that performance-wise, it's all the same. But is there something else that I should know?

Edited September 20, 2009 by shiroikaze

[azrael]

Besides expandability, what else am I'm trading off when I choose a micro-ATX motherboard? I know that performance-wise, it's all the same. But is there something else that I should know?

Cooling is gonna be a little harder since it's all compacted in there, unless you are putting this into a ATX case as opposed to a Micro-ATX. If you are, then cooling shouldn't be an issue. Wire management might be a problem. You may need to do some creative wire management to not restrict airflow in a micro-ATX case. But any problem won't cause you a major headaches.

[shiroikaze]

Cooling is gonna be a little harder since it's all compacted in there, unless you are putting this into a ATX case as opposed to a Micro-ATX. If you are, then cooling shouldn't be an issue. Wire management might be a problem. You may need to do some creative wire management to not restrict airflow in a micro-ATX case. But any problem won't cause you a major headaches.

Yep, the mini P180 is a micro ATX case alright--if the P183 was on sale, I jump on that in an instant.

I did read from SilentPCReview that the mini cools and pushes alot more air better than its predecessor, so I'm not too worried about heat (I may move to water-cooling at some point in the future though). Cable management shouldn't be a problem for me too if, like you said, I put some creative thought into it.

So I'm pretty much losing nothing of importance for going with mATX, eh?

Well, all I am doing is just buying a replacement case for my brother's old P4 system for now. I won't be doing a new build anytime soon but it is my goal after I get the case. I'm still deciding whether or not to go 1366 or 1156...

Edited September 21, 2009 by shiroikaze

[VF-19]

Yep, the mini P180 is a micro ATX case alright--if the P183 was on sale, I jump on that in an instant.

I did read from SilentPCReview that the mini cools and pushes alot more air better than its predecessor, so I'm not too worried about heat (I may move to water-cooling at some point in the future though). Cable management shouldn't be a problem for me too if, like you said, I put some creative thought into it.

So I'm pretty much losing nothing of importance for going with mATX, eh?

Well, all I am doing is just buying a replacement case for my brother's old P4 system for now. I won't be doing a new build anytime soon but it is my goal after I get the case. I'm still deciding whether or not to go 1366 or 1156...

Micro ATX is great if you don't need to do SLI/Crossfire (usually they don't have that capability), and you don't need a slew of PCI or PCI-E slots. Other than that, it's a tiny, when compared to an ATX motherboard.

They're also great for making home theater pcs. Then again, your old PC is also great for making it into a home theater PC. It's what I did with mine (with some minor purchases, video card, wireless, and a hard drive).

Anybody remember BTX?

[shiroikaze]

Micro ATX is great if you don't need to do SLI/Crossfire (usually they don't have that capability), and you don't need a slew of PCI or PCI-E slots. Other than that, it's a tiny, when compared to an ATX motherboard.

They're also great for making home theater pcs. Then again, your old PC is also great for making it into a home theater PC. It's what I did with mine (with some minor purchases, video card, wireless, and a hard drive).

Anybody remember BTX?

I still have one of those

I most likely won't do a multi-GPU setup, but at least I'll get a board which gives me that option though. Unfortunately, I can't make my brother's computer into an HTPC. Doesn't have an AGP/PCI-E x8/16 slot. I suck for not knowing Dell will give the lowest of the barrel.

Edited September 20, 2009 by shiroikaze

[VF-19]

I still have one of those

I most likely won't do a multi-GPU setup, but at least I'll get a board which gives me that option though. Unfortunately, I can't make my brother's computer into an HTPC. Doesn't have an AGP/PCI-E x8/16 slot. I suck for not knowing Dell will give the lowest of the barrel.

Actually, you might be able to, as many HDTVs have the standard VGA port on the back. What you'll really need is a videocard capable of putting out your TV's resolution (or seeing if the onboard video is good enough to do it). Oh, and you'll need a cable to route your sound to your tv, naturally.

[mikeszekely]

Yep, the mini P180 is a micro ATX case alright--if the P183 was on sale, I jump on that in an instant.

I did read from SilentPCReview that the mini cools and pushes alot more air better than its predecessor, so I'm not too worried about heat (I may move to water-cooling at some point in the future though). Cable management shouldn't be a problem for me too if, like you said, I put some creative thought into it.

So I'm pretty much losing nothing of importance for going with mATX, eh?

Well, all I am doing is just buying a replacement case for my brother's old P4 system for now. I won't be doing a new build anytime soon but it is my goal after I get the case. I'm still deciding whether or not to go 1366 or 1156...

The only real downside is trying to fit everything into the case. I have the P182 ATX mid-size tower, and I still had to pull out the upper hard drive cage to make room for a GeForce 9800GTX+. If I'm not mistaken, the P180 is just a smaller version of what I have with those funky grills on the front door.

A microATX mobo can be placed into a full-size ATX case. Down the road, you can always get a bigger case if your hardware stops fitting, and re-purpose the P180.

[azrael]

Micro ATX is great if you don't need to do SLI/Crossfire (usually they don't have that capability), and you don't need a slew of PCI or PCI-E slots. Other than that, it's a tiny, when compared to an ATX motherboard.

They're also great for making home theater pcs. Then again, your old PC is also great for making it into a home theater PC. It's what I did with mine (with some minor purchases, video card, wireless, and a hard drive).

Micro-ATX is great for computers that won't be doing much or single function boxes. I found them to be a better solution to people who just need a system to do Office/'Net, HTPCs (I can go smaller with HTPCs though), and home servers.

[shiroikaze]

Micro-ATX is great for computers that won't be doing much or single function boxes. I found them to be a better solution to people who just need a system to do Office/'Net, HTPCs (I can go smaller with HTPCs though), and home servers.

Definitely agree there, though some mATX cases and motherboards are being marketed towards gamers nowadays...

Actually, you might be able to, as many HDTVs have the standard VGA port on the back. What you'll really need is a videocard capable of putting out your TV's resolution (or seeing if the onboard video is good enough to do it). Oh, and you'll need a cable to route your sound to your tv, naturally.

Actually, I just remembered that my brother's Dell is able to play 720p videos surprisingly, unless it's flash... Though I don't really need an HTPC just yet.

The only real downside is trying to fit everything into the case. I have the P182 ATX mid-size tower, and I still had to pull out the upper hard drive cage to make room for a GeForce 9800GTX+. If I'm not mistaken, the P180 is just a smaller version of what I have with those funky grills on the front door.

A microATX mobo can be placed into a full-size ATX case.

Mm hmm, it's the same thing with the mini, the middle hard drive cage has to be removed if I were to stick something enormous in there (the mini is about two inches shorter).

Down the road, you can always get a bigger case if your hardware stops fitting, and re-purpose the P180.

That was my original intent (somewhat). I was planning on buying two cases, one waaay further down the line.

Well, if I don't get my Amazon giftcard in time before they raise the price on the mini, I might as well wait for the P183's price to drop...

Edited September 21, 2009 by shiroikaze

[Roy Focker]

In case this is new to you my Lap Top has a loose Power Connection Socket. This is a complex & simple soldering repair job. Complex because you have to take it all part to do a simple solder. I decided to avoid this till I have no one choice. In the mean while I've started a New Computer fund. 60% of goal already set aside. Waiting for Xmas sales.

Now I'm pretty sure I won't bother with the repair at all. In addition to the loose socket. I've also started noticing that is increasingly slower (for several months). USB attachments aren't being recognized half of the time. Plus now it looks like the computer won't turn off without unplugging and popping out the battery. This is the last Toshiba I will buy. It was a good computer but I think it was equipped with a 5 year kill switch inside.

[VF-19]

In case this is new to you my Lap Top has a loose Power Connection Socket. This is a complex & simple soldering repair job. Complex because you have to take it all part to do a simple solder. I decided to avoid this till I have no one choice. In the mean while I've started a New Computer fund. 60% of goal already set aside. Waiting for Xmas sales.

Now I'm pretty sure I won't bother with the repair at all. In addition to the loose socket. I've also started noticing that is increasingly slower (for several months). USB attachments aren't being recognized half of the time. Plus now it looks like the computer won't turn off without unplugging and popping out the battery. This is the last Toshiba I will buy. It was a good computer but I think it was equipped with a 5 year kill switch inside.

You do realize the "kill switch" is probably XP (or Vista) itself getting corrupted with general use. The other kill switch could be wear and tear on the hard drive.

[mikeszekely]

It was a good computer but I think it was equipped with a 5 year kill switch inside.

Five years is a good run for a computer.

Seriously, I know that a lot of people don't think that they need to upgrade if all they do is get on the internet. And I know that a lot of people are kind of spoiled by the fact that XP is still around when it should have been killed years ago. But if you think back, between late August of 1995 and February of 2000 Microsoft released four versions of Windows. Vista's on the way out in under three years. Windows XP's shelf life is a fluke. And since most people don't bother upgrading an OS without simply buying a new computer with it pre-installed, and even if you assume that most customers skip a generation of Windows (that is, had 95 but skipped 98, went with ME but skipped 2000, etc), you're still probably looking at a five-year average between new computers.

Then there's people like me. I'll be lucky if I go three years before the lust for "latest and greatest" drives me to upgrade. As it is, I'm fighting to urge to buy the first DirectX 11-compatible video card to hit the market.

[Roy Focker]

Of Course Customers skip a generation of Windows. When a new version comes out some people get it asap and the rest wait first to hear the complaints about it.

[Ghost Train]

Windows is like Star Trek, in that it follows an alternating win/fail pattern:

3.1: Win

95: Fail

98SE: Win

ME: Epic Fail - went back in time to rescue the whales

XP: Somewhat Win

Vista: Epic fail @ launch

7 - JJ Abrams reboots teh series omg Star Trek 90210 faaabolous.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Ghost Train

[akt_m]

Windows is like Star Trek, in that it follows an alternating win/fail pattern:

3.1: Win

95: Fail

98SE: Win

ME: Epic Fail - went back in time to rescue the whales

XP: Somewhat Win

Vista: Epic fail @ launch

7 - JJ Abrams reboots teh series omg Star Trek 90210 faaabolous.

I guess this movie that they go back in time to pick a whale was the only one i wasn't bored when watching. I remember seeing at TV other trek movies but didn't like any of them. Long time ago...

[mikeszekely]

Windows is like Star Trek, in that it follows an alternating win/fail pattern:

3.1: Win

95: Fail

98SE: Win

ME: Epic Fail - went back in time to rescue the whales

XP: Somewhat Win

Vista: Epic fail @ launch

7 - JJ Abrams reboots teh series omg Star Trek 90210 faaabolous.

Yeah, except for me 95 was fine, it was 98 that gave me issues. And you left out Windows 2000.

[shiroikaze]

I don't think 95 was fail... 98SE wasn't really win for me either.

[Ghost Train]

Yeah, except for me 95 was fine, it was 98 that gave me issues. And you left out Windows 2000.

Yea I left out 2000, and all of the server products for that matter. I realize many people ran 2000 on standalone devices, but from what I've gathered Microsoft ultimately branded the 2000 as more of a "business OS" and let 98SE and ME be their "home" desktop product.

Well, the list itself I admit is highly subjective and biased towards my own personal usage lol. I struggled a lot with 95 but I suspect now a lot of it was due to my own inexperience. A more accurate view would have been 98: fail but 98SE: pure win. As late as 2003, my main rig was still running 98SE until it was finally supplanted by XP.

[nhyone]

Whether you have good experience or not depends a lot whether you have the HW drivers, I think.

When I upgraded from Windows 3.11 to Windows 95, I didn't have drivers for my graphics and HD. So no accelerated graphics. I needed a driver for my HD because my BIOS did not support partitions over 504MB natively. (I can't remember the details.)

So it wasn't a pleasant experience. However, Windows 95 looked way cooler than Windows 3.11 and was clearly the way to go. We are still using the same interface today, 14 years later.

I upgraded to Windows 98 without a problem. By then, I had gotten new hardware that had Windows 95 drivers. (Windows 95/98 are in the same family.)

I watched a colleague struggled with Windows 2000 on his P-II (233MHz?) with 64MB RAM. It swapped to the HD constantly. I have a better experience -- on a P4 2.4GHz 512MB. I remember it as a slimmed-down XP. (W2k was considered bloated when it came out. Now it's slim. Same for XP.)

IMO, Windows 2000 came out at the wrong time. It was too resource intensive and required new drivers. Anything that requires new drivers will usually spoil your day.

When Windows XP came out, most HW already had Windows 2000 drivers, so it was much less problematic -- most HW had W2k drivers even though W2k itself wasn't popular for home use. For example, I got a notebook a few months before XP came out. (It was running Windows ME, which I found okay) I was able to upgrade to XP by using the W2k drivers.

Then we were in an unusual period of stability for 5 years. (Actually less, because XP SP2 was a substantial change too.)

Vista, everyone knew the story. It's not just that it's not ready. It has a new architecture, which means new drivers. Guess what happens when you try to upgrade an existing PC?

Two years down the road with W7, everything is fine again. I'm able to upgrade my notebook from Vista to W7 using the Vista drivers.

Rule of thumb

- Don't upgrade old PC across OS architectures (XP->Vista, not okay; Vista->W7, okay)

- Don't expect discontinued HW to have new drivers

- For PC, just upgrade the HW. For notebook, forget about upgrading or buy a new one!

[eugimon]

Meh, my old dell laptop (inspiron 6000) shipped with XP, it took vista just fine (slower but more stable) and it took win 7 just fine (faster and more stable).

Edited September 29, 2009 by eugimon

[mondamoto]

Okay I am starting the process to build myself a new computer since My current one is giving me trouble.

But to be honest I have not built one in about 4 years and I am not even sure what is out there.

My current rig is a 3.2 GHz P4 with 2gig of PC3200 memory. Sound Blaster Audigy and an old AGP card on a Intel 865PE Perl motherboard with Built in Network card.

Using the questionnaire listed earlier

Desktops and Servers

1) What is the intended usage of this system?

Pretty much a little of everything

2) What operating system will you use?

To save money at first it will Run XP but I will upgrade it to Windows 7 at some point

3) How much are you planning to spend or what is your intended budget for this system?

I would like to spend in the area of 500 to 700 when all said and done and I have 200 to 300 right now to spend at first.

4) Do you intend to buy a pre-built or a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) system?

I like to build them my self

Since my job pays me once a month this is going to be a work in progress build. I would like to buy the basics first. I figure I can use the current HDs (both Sata), DVD burner (IDE), and Sound card not sure about the case as I would pass the old computer down to my kids depending on it current ailments.

So I guess I need Motherboard, Processor and memory recommendations I would like a few Sata connections on the board as my current board only has 2.

[mikeszekely]

Okay I am starting the process to build myself a new computer since My current one is giving me trouble.

But to be honest I have not built one in about 4 years and I am not even sure what is out there.

My current rig is a 3.2 GHz P4 with 2gig of PC3200 memory. Sound Blaster Audigy and an old AGP card on a Intel 865PE Perl motherboard with Built in Network card.

Using the questionnaire listed earlier

Desktops and Servers

1) What is the intended usage of this system?

Pretty much a little of everything

2) What operating system will you use?

To save money at first it will Run XP but I will upgrade it to Windows 7 at some point

3) How much are you planning to spend or what is your intended budget for this system?

I would like to spend in the area of 500 to 700 when all said and done and I have 200 to 300 right now to spend at first.

4) Do you intend to buy a pre-built or a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) system?

I like to build them my self

Since my job pays me once a month this is going to be a work in progress build. I would like to buy the basics first. I figure I can use the current HDs (both Sata), DVD burner (IDE), and Sound card not sure about the case as I would pass the old computer down to my kids depending on it current ailments.

So I guess I need Motherboard, Processor and memory recommendations I would like a few Sata connections on the board as my current board only has 2.

What kind of case are you using now, what kind of RAM do you have right now, and how much wattage is your power supply putting out?

Thing is, with that kind of budget, you're really stuck using a Core 2 Duo, maybe a Core 2 Quad. The Core i5 and Core i7 will eat up your entire right now budget, and a CPU+mobo will eat your entire long-term budget.

So you really have two options... build a relatively cheap system for the usual web-surfing, Office, iTunes, media-watching, etc. Recycle as much of your old system as possible. No gaming. That could tide you over until you stash away some cash for a more powerful rig later, and you could pass this one down to your kids instead of what you've got now.

The other option would be to try to figure out what's the best computer we could build for $500-$700, knowing full well that it'll be mid-range at best.

[azrael]

...My current rig is a 3.2 GHz P4 with 2gig of PC3200 memory. Sound Blaster Audigy and an old AGP card on a Intel 865PE Perl motherboard with Built in Network card.

Using the questionnaire listed earlier

Desktops and Servers

1) What is the intended usage of this system?

Pretty much a little of everything

2) What operating system will you use?

To save money at first it will Run XP but I will upgrade it to Windows 7 at some point

3) How much are you planning to spend or what is your intended budget for this system?

I would like to spend in the area of 500 to 700 when all said and done and I have 200 to 300 right now to spend at first.

4) Do you intend to buy a pre-built or a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) system?

I like to build them my self

Since my job pays me once a month this is going to be a work in progress build. I would like to buy the basics first. I figure I can use the current HDs (both Sata), DVD burner (IDE), and Sound card not sure about the case as I would pass the old computer down to my kids depending on it current ailments.

So I guess I need Motherboard, Processor and memory recommendations I would like a few Sata connections on the board as my current board only has 2.

It may be best to wait till you have that 500-700 ready all at once. You can build an AMD-based system instead of an Intel-based system to cut down the costs. Since you are using a lot of old parts, incremental updates will be hard. Otherwise, I would recommend you update components like your video card (we'll get to that in a minute). At a 500-700 budget, I would consider a mid-range Nvidia card. You could probably do better with a high-end ATI card but I would need to know what kind of case you are using now since you intend to keep it and pass it on.

You will need to factor in a new video card in there unless you plan on using on-board video. Your old AGP video card will not work with newer computers (it's a dead standard).

[grss1982]

Rule of thumb

- Don't upgrade old PC across OS architectures (XP->Vista, not okay; Vista->W7, okay)

- Don't expect discontinued HW to have new drivers

- For PC, just upgrade the HW. For notebook, forget about upgrading or buy a new one!

I like that rule of thumb. However, could we also say that any desktop or laptop, which had Vista pre-installed including those based on the infamous Intel 915 chipset will work with W7?

[Ghost Train]

I'm so happy, I passed my Network+ exam yesterday. Wohoo! 1 small step towards false-IT-lordship (ie. CCNA, MSCE, and beyond >_< )

[Roy Focker]

Cool now I think I'm hearing an occasional popping noises from my note book.

[VF-19]

Popping noises are never good noises... Unless you're making popcorn, then NOT hearing popping noises is bad.

It could be your fan or hard drive that's making the noises... Both of which is bad. Have you run a SMART test on the drive recently?

[Roy Focker]

Test on the HD comes back okay. Maybe it is the fan. Just one of many problems this laptop started having. I'm just crossing my fingers I can make it to all the holiday offers.

[azrael]

Test on the HD comes back okay. Maybe it is the fan. Just one of many problems this laptop started having. I'm just crossing my fingers I can make it to all the holiday offers.

I would have your buying plan ready just in case something were to happen now.

[Roy Focker]

I have 80% of my goal set aside already and charge the rest if I have to.

[shiroikaze]

US Court: Software is Owned, Not Licensed

Perhaps a taste of things to come?

In other news, Yahoo to kill Geocities, Oct 26th.

Edited October 9, 2009 by shiroikaze

[VF-19]

Test on the HD comes back okay. Maybe it is the fan. Just one of many problems this laptop started having. I'm just crossing my fingers I can make it to all the holiday offers.

If it's the fan afterall, you might be able to replace it yourself, if you can get to it. Getting a replacement fan should be easy, with ebay and all...

But still, wouldn't hurt to back up everything, and then do daily backups, if you suspect something's going to bite the dust in there.

[kensei]

Um, is it normal for my graphics card to be so hot that it burns my fingers when I touch it? The only game I've been playing lately with it is World at War and the Zombie missions. Last time it was COOKING. I run 2 GTX 295s in SLi Mode. Should I run a probe to see what temps its working at? Cause I have not overclocked ANYTHING, CPU, GPU, RAM, whatever. All is stock. And all the fans are working.

[VF-19]

Um, is it normal for my graphics card to be so hot that it burns my fingers when I touch it? The only game I've been playing lately with it is World at War and the Zombie missions. Last time it was COOKING. I run 2 GTX 295s in SLi Mode. Should I run a probe to see what temps its working at? Cause I have not overclocked ANYTHING, CPU, GPU, RAM, whatever. All is stock. And all the fans are working.

It's not that unusual for video cards to get that hot. My 4870 hits 80C with regularity, and it doesn't flinch. However, if you're noticing very odd things in your games within a few minutes of playing, then your card is overheating. Go and get a copy of GPU-Z and have it running in the background while you're playing a game, then Alt-Tab over to it to see what your temps are.

... And a quick check of my GPU's temperature shows that it's sitting at 71C... Idle. Hot. However, when I override the fan speed within the card drivers (to a 100% roar), I wind up with an idle of 40C within about 2 minutes.