Anime and its perception in the West

[VFTF1]

Given recent events, which I do not want to get into because that is not the point of the thread, I have decided to open this topic as a forum for exchanging opinions and observations about Japanese Anime and Western culture; how anime is percieved, how it is being influenced by or has influenced western culture - whether you think these developments are positive or negative, and why?

Clearly, we have seen from recent events on this sight that one of the more tricky aspects of the influx and growth of Anime in the west is that anime essentially goes against the grain of what is usually considered "cartoons" or "children's television" by introducing explicitly or implicitly adult themes, and thereby risks potentially offending or confusing general audiences or viewers who expect a "children's cartoon" and get something on quite another level.

Another example of the impact of anime on Western culture is one from my own backyard, here in Poland, where I run a store that sells lots of anime-based goods. European Union law states that "toys" must carry CE certification, which basically is akin to a government accreditation of a product as being admissible for exchange within the EU. At the same time, as anyone who lives in Europe knows, there aren't very many European based companies that produce toys; most of which are made in China. Most large companies like Hasbro print special "European" boxes for their products - we tend to think that these boxes are made for the European market which is multi-lingual - but multi-lingualism is actually only a minor reason; the main one being that this way Hasbro can create a box that conforms to the EU law and has a CE marking on it. Companies that do not market or directly distribute their goods in Europe like say, Yamato, don't make boxes with CE markings on them. The law stipulates that there is a category of goods called "Adult Collectibles" which do not need such markings and are exempt from otherwise strict criteria governing "toys" - and so importers can import Yamato, Takara and other foriegn, non CE-labelled products as adult collectibles.

But this is a bit of a "lie" - because a very large segment of the market that demands these products are children. And lots of times, these children and other young people are quite sophisticated. To use an example - would you pay top dollar for a Masterpiece Megatron that had a pig white label sticker on the box that said "CE" and then spelled out in 16 languages that Megatron was a toy etc etc etc? Would you consider him MISB? Clearly not - and since it is not worth Takara-Tomy's money to create seperate MP Megatron boxes for Europe (where they don't market these things), then importers - if they wish to import MP Megatron as a "toy" - would have to put such labels on the box...effectively making it impossible to do so - since nobody is going to pay top-dollar for such an abomination.

The result? Import them as "adult collectibles" - even though a huge portion of your market are children - via their parents naturally - but still - children.

To me, this is a good example of how the culture is transforming in ways that laws are not capable of encompassing - and therefore silly paradoxes such as these arise.

In the USA, I expect the orange capping of MP Megatron is a similar absurdity.

It all ultimately boils down to the fact that the "border" between adult and child media is melting away - cartoons were once laughed at for being "childish" - anime has proved that they can be works of art, touch upon serious and important subjects - and therefore contribute in a relevent and important way to the adult world... and the thanks anime gets? Being condemned as pedophilia - or at least making people shiver in their shoes about being anime fans, or stick ugly orange plugs into beautiful figures in order to avoid being arrested.

But then again - was there ever a "border" to begin with?

Most Catholics take their children into a Church where - on the face of it - there is statue a half naked guy grotesquely nailed to a cross. Of course; the religion is about a lot more than this crude image. But if some people can look at anime and say "oh my goodness! pedophilia!" then they should consider how others might view some of the things they engage in just based off of "first impressions."

Are we to consider a beautiful woman who wears an alluring dress to certainly be a prostitute?

Are we to consider a Kabuki cross dresser like Alto to therefore be a pervert?

Are we to consider DYRL to be gorophilia because of the way Fokker dies?

Is it ok to put a yellow ribbon on your car and support soldiers but censor cartoons where there is bloody combat?

A final thought:

Another line of work that I have relates to this kind of situation very often. I work in theater in Poland; specifically as a translator and journalist who covers theater. Every single week there is a story about somebody who tries to sue a theater or a director for "violating religious sensibilities" - and in general any and all plays which elevate themselves above a family friendly farce are considered scandalous and shocking and accused of being pornographic - when in fact they are just art and not crude pornography. Usually the accusers don't even go see the plays - they just rely on one or two photos and vague press reports about "controversial scenes."

What is truly ironic is that nobody attacks strip clubs - which openly flaunt that they are pornographic in nature, but theater plays which are intelligent and serious and often very beautiful works of art are attacked all the time for being pornographic because they have the audacity to consider themselves artistic rather than merely pornographic.

(for the record I have nothing against strip clubs and don't think they ought to be attacked - I was just using them to illustrate a point).

Personally, I think this is because the majority of people have crude psychologies and consider most matters of a sexual nature to be inherently "embarassing" and fit for censorship or, if they are "progressive," a red light district. But when these matters are elevated and an attempt is made to explore them in ways that do not fit the stereotype of "sexality=pornography=do it if you must but keep it quiet" then people have a tendency to go insane, to become hateful and accuse artists of pornography because of their (Freudian) complexes.

This is not at all unlike what we sometimes see happening with anime; where the fear that someone out there will cry "foul" makes people waver and they are suddenly afraid of anything that is controversial - even though the whole point of art is to stir controversy and debate and thinking about important issues in life - not to be a Diplomatic Corps.

Diplomatic Corps must follow diplomatic ettiquette because often times they deal with cultures that are not open and free - and of course it is always better to deal with people than to close yourself from them; and if you think open cultures are better than closed ones- then the best way to open a closed culture is to deal with them peacefully and by example - enter diplomacy (or Nekki Bassara! )

I guess ultimately it's the same old same old debate that has been going on since the beginning of human society: what is "acceptable" in public? What words and images are acceptable and which are not?

And always there will be different sides of the issue - the problem is that when one side suddenly feels like it has to temper its' speech or presentation out of fear of retribution from the other side - then I think we answer the question of what is acceptable:

It is unacceptable when someone does not speak because he or she fears.

It is unacceptable when someone does not present an image or work of literature because he or she fears.

Once we give into fear - then we become our own censors. This is quite common in the West. In the East - at least Eastern Europe - the government was the main censor and people either conformed or rebelled. But now, we see that in free, open societies, public opinion and the pressure of public opinion often act as a "hidden censor" which strikes fear of "what others will think" into all of us and makes us sub-consiously temper what we say or do or show.

I don't think anime will ever be universally accepted. It is - like most phenomena in culture - a niche. Those who do not love it will never understand it; just like there are probably many other cultural phenomena that we as Macross fans will never understand - and may even feel disturbed by. But I hope the next time we join the crowd in condeming someone or show "understanding" when "fear of prosecution" is used by a business or institution to justify the tempering of actions they would otherwise have taken that what we are really doing is not "cleaning up" the culture - we are making FEAR that driving force of culture. That's bad in my opinion.

I for one think that the real reason why people prefer to accuse anime of scandal or pedophilia is because they fear the lessons that lots of anime carries: like the lessons about peace and music and love that Macross carries - so they try to generate a bad vibe about it and make even those of us who love anime fear public opinion enough to look both way before we smile at how cute Ranka is.

VFTF1

[Mr March]

"You actually watch that sick animated porn from Japan? What's wrong with you?"

I've tired of trying to change people a long time ago. I usually just don't bother talking about anime with most people. Plus, it's not that great a conversation piece anyway, since I know few other Macross fans

Edited June 24, 2008 by Mr March

[Duke Togo]

I for one think that the real reason why people prefer to accuse anime of scandal or pedophilia is because...

They've seen Macross 7?

Seriously, though, I've seen a decent amount of anime over the past 30 years, and I strongly feel that the industry as a whole feeds the young girl fetish monster a wee bit too much these days. Is it constant, is it in every anime? No, of course not. I would say a majority of anime avoids it. But its still there in alot of mainstream shows and movies, we can't deny it.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Duke Togo

[shogun029]

Nice job in expressing your views. I tend to agree with you that anime is a niche in our society. From what I have seen, those who watch/collect/love anime are considered to be a subculture apart from mainstream society. I believe part of the reason that it has not yet attained full acceptance in American society, for example, is the difference between Japan and the U.S. Japanese animation is just that, Japanese. It's storylines, characters, myths and legends, beliefs, mannerisms and expressions, sense of humor and sense of propriety are founded solidly in Japanese culture and history. Americans, for the most part, can't relate. Also, cartoons in the U.S. are for kids. But there is an audience for more mature subject matter in animation (Adult Swim, anyone?). But it's relatively small in comparison to the anime-viewing or manga-reading audience in Japan. Will anime ever truly be accepted as mainstream? Who's to say? It's been around for a long time and it has continued to improve as time has passed. The storylines continue to be more involved and encompass not just issues of Japanese importance but also global issues. But I think unlike videogames, which developed from niche to mainstream to be on par with movies and music, anime will never become mainstream unless an equivalent can be produced outside of Japan; an equivalent that is skewed toward the culture from which it is taken and is as detailed and beautiful. (Imagine a U.S.-produced [not bastardized.. *cough* Robotech *cough*]) anime.) I just don't see it happening in the near future. Thus, I think those who love anime will always be in the minority (that is unless you live in Japan).

Edited June 24, 2008 by shogun029

[protogarland]

Over the last 28 or so years of watching and collecting anime and related goodies, it seems to me that anime is still viewed as something you are into as a child or a teenager but that you are supposed to grow out of it by the time you finish college. It is somewhat tantamount to "adult societies'" view on video games, rpg's etc. I believe that some of this is fueled, in part, by the fact that anime in America is marketed towards a younger (meaning adolescent, teenage, early college) demographic. Sure, the occasional "adult" (meaning non hentai) titles comes to the U.S. but anime is still marketed towards a younger demographic.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have seen in the last 10 or so years from various discussion boards on Japanese culture and movies, anime is also aimed at a similar demographic, the only difference is they have manga and anime that is geared towards more adult age groups (meaning thirty-somethings) than America does. The popularity of these manga and anime over those that are marketed towards a younger age group can be debated but I would argue that most of the marketing budget is focused on the younger audiences, both here and abroad.

What makes me believe this? Let's take Gundam as an example. Here we have an incredibly complex and robust world and plot but who ends up piloting the Gundam? If it isn't a teenaged Amuro then it is some young (early twenties) military recruit. From my perspective, it seems that make the protagonist in these stories young so that young boys will connect with them. Let's face it, most young boys are not going to connect with a hero who is in his 40's, 50's or older. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule but this generally holds true.

Another factor, from an American perspective, is all the titles coming over that deal with a protagonist who is either in high school or just starting college, these "slices of llife" anime if you will. These get a lot of press and attention in the fandom and it seems that a majority of the fandom is wanting this kind of material. The big exception I can see, without actually having seen any of the series, is the Victorian Romance Emma which has older characters as the main focus.

Obviously, people who have been fans for a long period of time tend to stay fans well past what society would call the "expiration date" but these people are not the focus of marketing campaigns. The type of anime that gets brought over and really pushed is evidence of this.

Personally, I have been finding myself watching older anime out of mostly nostalgic desires, especially for shows that I wanted to see as a teenager but never had the opportunity. Sure, some of these anime still engage me as they did back then but my tastes are also changing and I find that the storytelling techniques in a lot of anime isn't doing it for me.

I am not ashamed to admit to people that I am a fan of anime but I do not always engage in the subject readily because I find that "mainstream's" opinion of anime has been static for at least 20 years and doesn't appear to be changing. Anime is and probably always will be a niche market.

Anyway, there's my $1.05.

[transfan52]

I think there is a big stigma towards anime in the west particularly in america... Even so called fans of anime are hesitant to talk to other fans about anime in the most general sense. I have met some younger people that admit to me that they have and still watch anime from time to time but I cant have a long talk about it or else they start getting nervous and try to change the subject matter or scold you for talking too much.

Its because of the social pressure society puts on people as to whats supposedly "normal" and "acceptable" that makes them and me included feel apprehensive about speaking publicly about the subject.

Anime fans also seem to develop a self loathing towards the hobby, themselves and others. They refer to themselves as geeks, nerds or any other ignorant label created by haters or people trying to supress what they feel is "abnormal".

But alas there will always be haters out there or people trying to impose they're opinions on the general populace. In the end the only thing that matters is whether you truly enjoy the hobby or not.

Ive never been a hardcore anime fan and I only watch certain series that catch my interest every now and then when im bored and have no videogames to play or have nowhere to go.

The problem is that people assume that just because you've seen one show that your a hardcore anime fan and your life revolves around it... and thats definitely not the case with me.

I have to add another thing though... there are some things I really dont like about the anime sub culture though... the whole moei movement is perverted IMO and gives a bad image on the hobby... also the whole fan service with anime girls is kinda annoying... this is probably why I like older anime because it does'nt focus so much on this aspect... some ppl may say you dont like anime if you cant accept that but to each his own... IMO there are some things that go way too far but its what most fans like so I can take the good with the bad...

Edited June 24, 2008 by transfan52

[JsARCLIGHT]

It's been my experience that any hobby has it's crazy weirdo "too far into it" side and generally that hobby is judged by the "masses" by that extreme rather than the norm. To a degree everything in the west is judged by their extremes rather than the norms. I've seen it in every hobby I have. Tell someone you like video games and they ask if you play Grand Theft Auto all the time, slobbering and cussing while you run over hookers and shoot up drugs. Tell someone you like football and you're instantly a hooting, hollering neanderthal who only likes to see the injuries and the carnage. Tell someone you like guns and they accuse you of being a mass murdering lunatic who will shoot them the first chance you get (anime fans think they have it bad, try being a firearms enthusiast in this country). Tell someone you like cars and you are an environment killing out of control lawbreaking street racing thug. Tell someone you like rock music and you are a greasy haired, wifebeater wearing trailer park hick. Tell someone you like rap music and you are a lowbrow street thug gangsta wannabe. The "sword" is always out there and it's always cutting both ways.

That is just how the "west" works. We have freedom of speech and everyone chooses to engage in it. Yes they are usually judging you based on misconceived notions or their own need to bash but that is just how "people" are. People are mean, self-centered pricks that feel the need to denigrate others in order to make themselves feel better about who they are and what they do. A child molester will call a murderer "bad". A fantasy football player will call a dungeons and dragons player a "nerd". The pot will call the kettle black. The street drives both ways and in the court of popular opinion everything gets judged and everything gets sentenced, the trick is to try to associate yourself with like minded people so you aren't constantly defending yourself... and even in groups of "like minded people" you can still find someone who you think has "taken it too far". How many times have we ourselves gone into a convention, seen a chubby guy dressed up like Faye Valentine and said "LOSER!".

It's all in how you yourself see it. If people tell you to take your ball and go home, then take your ball and go home... look for a new place where people think like you, because it does exist and it is out there somewhere. And if you ask me I prefer my hobbies to be niche... the second something goes mainstream to becomes so watered down and homogenized for mass consumption that you don't like it anymore.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

how it is being influenced by or has influenced western culture

I'll sum it up: wachowski's and the matrix. Ripped off the cyberpunk scifi animes like ghost in the shell and also copied dragonball z and akira (for the fighting bits?)

Robocop ripped off anime.

Terminator, aliens, blade runner might have influenced Bubblegum crisis a little bit. Although the boomers are more organic not just mechanical.

Astro boy is just pinocio with robot body. (the whole soul inside a robot theme)

Lion King? urgh lets not even go there since that one is obvious lol.

Robotech? HG kinda sorta wants to take credit and say it's something they made.

In summary: they rip off each other so they are even.

What matters is if the shows are good not who ripped off who. The japanese transformer cartoons aren't as good as the us ones for example. Many japanese robot shows have limited shortcuts and repetitive sequences reused over and over again, where you don't see that in american cartoons. (audience in the us seems to have a higher standard for smoothness for their cartoons imo)

I'd also like to mention there was this one episode I saw of Totally Spies a while ago that had exact clones of the Hardsuits from bubblegum crisis. So dodgy!

Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Clearly, we have seen from recent events on this sight that one of the more tricky aspects of the influx and growth of Anime in the west is that anime essentially goes against the grain of what is usually considered "cartoons" or "children's television" by introducing explicitly or implicitly adult themes, and thereby risks potentially offending or confusing general audiences or viewers who expect a "children's cartoon" and get something on quite another level.

They censored the guns in Gundam Seed and turned them into disco blasters instead. Similar to the change of the guns in ET to walkie talkies. Kiddfied! They just want to make more money and let it be watchable by a wider audience. Like how diehard 4 was made PG. $$$$

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editing_of_an...an_distribution

Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They refer to themselves as geeks, nerds or any other ignorant label created by haters or people trying to supress what they feel is "abnormal".

Actually some people do that to themselves but don't feel shame in it. It's assumed that if you are in Information Tech, know programming, and are obsessed with gadgets and buying lot of electronics and caring about specs, and read wired magazine, and watch science fiction, you are a geek. ....despite being fit and healthy and involved in sports, and keep an active lifestyle too.

But it's not necessarily bad like in the 70s where pcs were just coming around into the home, (computers were very mysterious and not everyone had one) or how in the 80s dungeouns and dragons was demonised by the religious as encouraging children to get into magick and worshipping satan and growing up to become witches or whatever.

Being a nerd in a way is similar to being being accused by your parents as being bad for listening to rock music. Some people wear that label with pride. It's a generational thing.

Over time you will see people loosen up and relax once they realise there is nothing to fear and that their opinions change. (with a bit of educating from friends of theirs who are the things they label, but proving to actually be good people) People generally need to label things but the labels don't always have to be taken negatively even if that was the original intent when first used.

Everytime you used the term "Anime Fan" for example, it assumes that anime itself is a subgenre of other types of animation and isn't just part of the big umbrella of animated story. Like there is somehow a massive difference between watching a walt disney animated movie and an anime one when it's basically the same idea: they are animated. Why highlight that one IS different and say your a fan of that? Why not just say "I'm a fan of animation" (not just anime?)

Oh and before someone says "one is aimed at kids", that might not be true, because you can have animated stories that appear to a general audience and interest adults too that are not anime. For example the shrek movies which take the piss out of all the popular fairy tales we recognise as kids but which are like an adult take on them.

By having that distinction, and a new label, "anime", it makes people want to know what IS anime? It calls it to attention where just saying it's a "foreign animated story" and then mentioning the theme of the story itself. "An animated movie with science fiction, action and mystery." Having the label "anime" doesn't really add much to the layperson.

You should be more interested in the genre. So if your GF loves romantic comedies, do you really need to know it's "anime" or be a "fan of anime" to be interested? No, just that it's worth watching, that it's good, and that the genre is of interest. Anime isn't a seperate subgenre that you should label it anime when you can just say animated. So in that sense, people who watch it, are themselves USING the labels to seperate themselves.

Fans are "fanatics". But you hear the word "Fans" everyday and don't think of a fan as being fanatical in a bad sense anymore do you? So as much as we can lay blame on society, the people that want to market or promote the stuff are as guilty of trying to use labels/buzzwords too by assuming that "only people interested in...[insert genre, age gap, sex, level of education] " will like and appreciate the thing they are trying to sell. But I can watch anime and not be a "fan of anime" to like it. And not because "it's anime" but because the animated form of a popular story with great story and depth interests me. But those marketing it will print on the box: one of the most popular anime of all time... assuming we care about "anime" and not the story. See what I mean? So it's like as much as you want to remove these labels, it also means you lose detail about what you are talking about if you don't say what type of animation. (the foreign made stuff made for forieng audience or local made stuff for locals)

If I watch an animated movie or a tv series, whether it was anime or not anime has never been something to think about or for me to pay special attention to. Whether it is foreign or not doesn't affect whether I would be interested in it. To me the label "anime fan" is out of date and suggests that someone who is a watcher of anime watches everything when it is impossible to do that. It is as vague as saying "I like music and am a fan of music". Yeah but what type? Better to just say: " I like metal, rap, rock, pop etc" to be specific. Nobody cares about the "liking music" part, because very little people listen everything out there. Usually you would just state the type and be done with it.

Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It all ultimately boils down to the fact that the "border" between adult and child media is melting away - cartoons were once laughed at for being "childish" - anime has proved that they can be works of art, touch upon serious and important subjects - and therefore contribute in a relevent and important way to the adult world... and the thanks anime gets? Being condemned as pedophilia - or at least making people shiver in their shoes about being anime fans, or stick ugly orange plugs into beautiful figures in order to avoid being arrested.

There are still anime aimed at kids. It just that the different cultures have different ideas of what's harmful to children. In japan you can buy the toy guns, but there is a political movement in the US that says guns are dangerous and we shouldn't glorify violence so effort is made to tone gun violence down to appease the anti-gun groups. But part of that is because of the lack of control and restraint of people in the country right? (crime rate is high but in japan it is low so it's not a problem to order a toy gun which looks realistic)

If the crime wasn't high maybe they would have a more relaxed attitude and wouldn't scapegoat the gun as the cause of violence. (when the real cause is somewhere else, because without guns it would just turn into knife violence, bashing people over the head with club violence, strangulation with a rope violence etc etc)

But in japan: some of the hentai is censored. And it gets uncensored in the US. So different cultures have different ideas about what is harmful. And yes even though hypocrisy exists in the real world (people are quite happy to kill stuff if it benefit the government) little kids are somehow more delicate and you don't want to scare the crap out of them. Just like when you were a little kid you might have been scared of the dark, scared of the neighbours dogs, frightened by the belief in ghost stories, images in horror movies etc You are more innocent and naive at that age and parents don't want to cause fear so they worry about the psycological affects on the mind at long term. So you wouldn't just let them see a violent movie like Saw Or Hostel.

But then again - was there ever a "border" to begin with?

Most Catholics take their children into a Church where - on the face of it - there is statue a half naked guy grotesquely nailed to a cross. Of course; the religion is about a lot more than this crude image. But if some people can look at anime and say "oh my goodness! pedophilia!" then they should consider how others might view some of the things they engage in just based off of "first impressions."

Are we to consider a beautiful woman who wears an alluring dress to certainly be a prostitute?

Are we to consider a Kabuki cross dresser like Alto to therefore be a pervert?

Are we to consider DYRL to be gorophilia because of the way Fokker dies?

Is it ok to put a yellow ribbon on your car and support soldiers but censor cartoons where there is bloody combat?

Difference is that with religion, like different cultures you may find that people have different ideas about what is harmful.

It would be rude to eat a beef burger in front of a hindu wouldn't it? Because they think cows are sacred and stuff. A person at a nudist colony might not have issues with nudity where a religios person might not have issues with violence. (in the case of the crucifixion you could argue it is a type of torture porn) It's not a problem with religion so much as difference in opinion about what is harmful to people. The intent is to protect you from harm but like with the differences in culture, this is going to be inconvenient to those who feel no harm to exposure to that thing.

Say I come from a land where killing yourself for your boss if you fail to accomplish the task on time is normal. Most people on earth would find that horrible. But is that so different from say the ritual suicide in japan. Again it comes back to differences in opinion of whats harmful.

I for one think that the real reason why people prefer to accuse anime of scandal or pedophilia is because they fear the lessons that lots of anime carries: like the lessons about peace and music and love that Macross carries - so they try to generate a bad vibe about it and make even those of us who love anime fear public opinion enough to look both way before we smile at how cute Ranka is.

A lot of it is just ignorance. Like with fears about guns and how it can make you a mass killer, porn turning you into a rapist, rock music making you evil, games making you into a violent criminal (Jack Thompson loves to talk to you about that) etc etc

It's called creating a convenient scapegoat to hide the real issues. (take your attention away from the economy, distract you from a scandal, get you to hate a specific group, encourage you to pay a tax (we all know what gore's global warming thing is going to be about: carbon tax) and many other hidden agendas. Fear can even be used in business to create panic and get people to sell things cheaply or ask for more money from buyers who value the product/service more after a little scaring. (The GTA games on PSP have a nice jab at the Y2K scares of the late 90s )

Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[eugimon]

Lion King? urgh lets not even go there since that one is obvious lol.

Osamu Tezuka derived much of his style from copying the Disney look... so I just consider it all in the family that Disney ended up copying much of Kimba for the Lion King.

Edited June 25, 2008 by eugimon

[Warmaker]

I don't care much about others' perception on anime who normally aren't into it. They know two shits about it or inaccurate third-hand information.

I collect and watch my shows, to hell with those who don't follow it.

I'm not here to convert. Just enjoy my anime. It's the same attitude I've had in the 80s, 90s, even through now. Maybe it's the old school anime fan attitude when anime was really underground in the West.

[shogun029]

How many times have we ourselves gone into a convention, seen a chubby guy dressed up like Faye Valentine and said "LOSER!".

Ah, hell. You had to bring up 'Man Faye.' I spent the last few years trying to forget about that guy. Thanks.

Edited June 25, 2008 by shogun029

[MisaForever]

I tend to stick with the classics for the most part. I got into anime in the late 80's, early 90's when I was a pre-teen and have loved it ever since. However, anime in the last decade and a half seems to have gone downhill IMO. There just aren't anymore classics and you don't see things like this stuff anymore...

Record of Lodoss War

Project A-ko

Bubblegum Crisis

The Original Macross

Dominion Tank Police

Vampire Hunter D

Ah! My Goddess

Ranma 1/2

Urusei Yatsura

You just don't see great titles like these anymore and it's sad. Anime has been spun into a teenager's emo dream, at least for the most part. If it's not dark and depressing and violent, it's not popular. Granted there are exceptions but for the most part this is true. Oh well, at least there are still SOME good shows still out there.

[Max Jenius]

I must say that I feel that I've grown out of anime at large. I find one or 2 shows to download and watch and check out some stuff I've heard about through the grapevine.

Yes, the anime industry itself feeds the pedo/rape stereotype in many ways. Not blatantly, of course, but I can easily see how people would get that impression. Hell, it isn't even lack of exposure, I think the more exposed to anime I get the more apparent it becomes.

Part of the reason that I've bid my farewell to the industry is that I feel like I've seen the same stuff repeatedly. There are the cliches that crop up over time be it in mannerisms, art style, etc. I'm starting to notice the more ridiculous aspects of the medium more readily to the point where I've decided to actually investigate older manga/anime to get something "different" that hadn't fallen into the conventions we have today.

Macross gets by because its Macross.

[Renato]

I think there is a gap between the West and Japan that has changed in nature since the 80s. Back then, the anime been exported was few and far between, and re-edited a la Battle of the Planets and Robotech. The more hardcore fans used their networking to send over 5th-generation tapes around to each other. That was how I originally saw Macross 7.

However, in recent years, due in no small part to media literacy brought about by the proliferation of the PC and other new gadgets and their everyday use as well as the overall information overload we are experiencing in society, the "geeks" and "nerds" have really started to come out of the woodwork and become main players within new media.

Thus, while it's not fully there yet, anime in the west has gotten quite a bit of mainstream acceptance, one highlight of which being Spirited Away's Academy award win. So it is slowly evolving.

I am not so sure this can be said for the situation in Japan. Anime has been a niche market over there for a long time and the whole "otaku" thing -- Densha Otoko not withstanding -- is all about NOT wanting to slip into the mainstream. But that applies not just to anime, but to the whole "nerd/geek/not normal" issue. Basically, in the West, the geeks are taking over Hollywood and TV with revolutionary new concepts which then are diffused into the mainstream, but in Japan they remain within the geek realm, never to be seen by the average joe. Maybe that is going a bit too far, but it certainly seems like audiences within Japan have a totally different concept of "visual entertainment".

VFTF1 -- It's uncanny you would start a thread like this at this time since I am preparing to write a paper about childhood and otaku, etc.

I can provide you with a link to a paper I wrote last year which clarifies my points in this post a bit more. I hope it can incite further discussion.

http://www.kyoto-seika.ac.jp/event/kiyo/page/kiyo-34e.html (It's PDF format)

I am really enjoying reading everybody's stimulating opinions. It's about time we had a thread like this, it's good to do this every once in a while!

[Roy Focker]

From my observations it has become more mainsteam. I do have conversations with 20 year old coworkers who will bring up that they like anime. They aren't nerdy looking either and I just pretend that I don't know much about it. Of course what they talk about is pretty much main stream.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

the "geeks" and "nerds" have really started to come out of the woodwork and become main players within new media.

I think a lot of the fear of technology is due to cyberpunk: computers are seen as replacing the human turning us into cyborgs with implants and we lose our humanity. How many 80s movies had the cyberpunk theme to them? Where its the man vs the machine and the machine is controlling us and mastering us, not the other way around.

The second matrix movie presents this question: you fear what you don't understand, if you didn't build it, can't repair it, yet rely on it to survive, isn't the machine really in charge of you? Once the cog breaks, the whole machine breaks and so aren't you putting yourself in danger of dying when you become too dependent on something you might not need, but which is convenient to have? (like the devil offering you a gift but you end up signing a contract where you end up paying him much more)

So anime also goes through that phase where those who don't really watch it fear it because it is foreign/alien/weird to them. Maybe if you let it control your life (like how some people are obsessed with gambling or alcohol or world of warcraft and it wrecks their social life) it will interfere with relationships with real people and time spent with humans as it becomes a religion. (like how hackers are obsessed with knowing absolutely everything about a machine and to normal people that frightens us that they have so much detail kept in their brain about what seems like insignificant information to the rest of us. The Amuro Ray character in gundam is just like that but with mobile suits.)

But I think it is due more to misunderstanding, (due to limited exposure) than because of any real fear.

Most people for example who call themselves a "fan" of something, are not really obsessive about it to the point that it makes them stop living a normal life. It's possible to be a person with an active lifestyle, who talks to people, and understands how something works without being 'scary', 'insane', anti-social, or *possessed. The hackers from the 70s (when the pc was mysterious, no common standards, only interest is by hobbyists) had less user-friendly interfaces available so I think that stereotype is really out of date today. Technology isn't as scary even though it can be unsafe. (ie children in danger of pedos trying to meet them live by talking to them in an online chatroom for example)

*to a caveman observing a person who can read a book, the person sitting there for hours "doing nothing" might seem to be possessed by a ghost or has a disease or something. So similarly you get this reaction with the mainstream media who attack the videogamers of today. They must think the people engaged in a videogame are mindless zombies staring at a blank screen so they create all kinds of stupid theories about the videogames being bad and destroying a person's mind and making them unaware of their environment because the people look like they are in a trance lost. That's the "generational gap" was that I mentioned. The old don't understand something, so it makes them scared. Because normally they are in control of something. Something that is unknown or misunderstood makes them feel uncomfortable and not in control. They don't want their kid to be possessed by the machine and become a zombie "doing nothing". But people who do understand it, participate in it, know that your mind is heavily in concentration, you are aware of what's happening around you, the game is working your brain, and it just looks like your "not doing anything" to those who aren't able to understand what the fascination is. Just like the caveman would wonder what the educated man is doing when he is holding a bunch of paper with scribbles on it, just sitting there for hours not moving much. That isn't normal to someone who can't read.

Edited June 26, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Duke Togo]

I must say that I feel that I've grown out of anime at large. I find one or 2 shows to download and watch and check out some stuff I've heard about through the grapevine.

Pretty much the same with me, as well. This last year has been a bit of an odd one for me, Gurren Lagann was the first new anime I had seen in a very long while, and the news of Macross Frontier has kinda kept me in it. I've been watching shows here and there since.

[kanedaestes]

Same here. I was real big into in the early to mid 90s with Devilman, Gunbuster, Angel Cop, and of course Macross and Macross Plus. But then it became the cool thing. I still remember watching Dragonball Z early in the morning when no one knew about it. Then Toonami came along and introduced anime to a much larger audience. Them with the WB and Fox importing all the kids show such as Pokemon, and Digimon anime became more mainstream. If you disagree about that it is mainstream now go to any major book or video store and just look at the walls, WALLS! not shelves, not sections, but walls of anime and manga. I am surprised by it all now and feel that it has become cliche to like anime. I see all these teenagers with Naruto shirts and i am like um okay whatever you know nothing at all about the old school ways. So i am now watching one or two shows if even that. Macross will always be watched but there are very few shows that i am interested in now a days. The last good show i watched was Samurai Champloo. Speaking of which how come Watanabe hasn't blessed us with another great show in such a long time?

[Roy Focker]

Face it we're just getting older.

They stole our fashion, our music, our pretty faces and now our anime.

Damn those young whipper snappers and their mainstream friendly anime!!!!

[kanedaestes]

lol exactly (shakes fists furiously)

[Max Jenius]

Face it we're just getting older.

They stole our fashion, our music, our pretty faces and now our anime.

Damn those young whipper snappers and their mainstream friendly anime!!!!

Blame it on The Man for raping anime too.

[Warmaker]

Blame it on The Man for raping anime too.

Stocks in Vaseline have jumped up in recent years

As far as mainstream anime, I'm really surprised about it compared to the 80s and 90s.

*Reminisce Mode On*

No internet in the 80s meant that an anime fan really had to go out of the way to get their tapes. You needed a network of like-minded fans. It also helped by being in an area where there's a concentration of Japanese, i.e. San Francisco's Japantown. My best friend had it good since he lived in 'Frisco while I was out over in the East Bay. What little you could get though was relished because it was so hard to come by

The 90s? The early 90s was at first similiar. If you were really lucky, you'd come across a specialty store that would carry some anime related goods. Usually for me in the San Francisco Bay Area, it was a comic book store that had a small section for anime stuff.

Right around the mid 90s is when things really improved for anime availability in the US. Some big chain stores began carrying them. I recall Suncoast Movies (overpriced, but they usually carried lesser known titles), Tower Records, etc. would have a shelf of titles. The mid 90s was the time I finally got to collect titles (subbed, of course) of shows that I have seen on old copies of imported Newtype magazines. The biggest standouts for me were Record of Lodoss Wars, Patlabor OVAs, Patlabor 1 & 2 movies. I read about these shows in old Newtypes and dreamed of seeing them. The mid 90s gave me the chance to get them.

The late 90s really improved on availability since the 'net let like-minded fans connect with each other much more easily and work things out. A good friend of mine when we were both still in the Marines was really into anime also, and had a shitload of tapes. He had a footlocker full of anime It was him that loaned me the subbed tapes of Evangelion and the subsequent movies.

Now in the 2000s, we got it so good now that it's not even funny. Manga, anime, and other associated merchandise is within a few keystrokes reach. Big name stores carry them. Heck, I didn't get to know THE TRUTH OF ORIGINAL SDF:MACROSS AND DYRL until coming to Macross World

"My eyes have been opened!"

My only complaint with the "mainstream anime" is the occasional selection problems. Do you REALLY need an entire shelf filled with 1 or 2 titles / series? This is more of a problem in the big chain stores, but small stores to me have usually been balanced. That or the 'net.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Warmaker

[Akilae]

There did seem to be a time in the 80s and 90s when anime was wonderfully dark and texturized... Berzerk, Lodoss War, Gungrave, Eva (yes, it's wonderfully mainstreamed, but that thing was bloody as hell and at least dug into the metaphysics in ways anime these days cannot touch...), Trigun, LOGH, Shadow Skill, Angel Cop, etc... Heck, I'll even throw in El Hazard for its fabulous artwork and Tenchi Muyo as the original harem anime...

It's also the same two decades that gave us Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, Pokemon.... *shudder*

Which also gave us Ah! My Goddess, the Yuusha-oh series (culminating in GaoGaiGar and carried on in spirit by Gurren Lagann), Kenshin, Dragon-half, Slam Dunk, Nuku Nuku, etc...

Half of those started out as 80s manga series. There are quite a few 90s manga series that have yet to see the light of day and remain wonderfully "niche", so to speak. The second half of Berzerk still needs to be animated, Vagabond would actually make a great dark and deep anime which could top Kenshin. The sequel to Gunm is just about winding down so that could also be animated. Five Star Stories... could be animated, but it's taken 20 years just to get to Vol. 12... 3x3 Eyes is over and done with and could be animated properly, but cannot due to being overly graphic violence. There's also the rest of Suzumiya Haruhi. CLAMP also need to get their act together and finish X and Tsubasa.

2000 so far has impressed me with Makoto Shinkai, Last Exile, Suzumiya Haruhi, Full Metal Panic (come on third season!!! I want to see the ARX-8 animated!), Gurren Lagann, and thus far Macross Frontier is doing a fair job.

One of the problems that I can see is that manga artists generally want to take as long as they can to finish the story. It's not a problem... but after 10+ years of watching Belldandy and Keiichi dance around each other, I sorta want the story to go somewhere and for those two to get it on. The manga lost me after Vol. 24. Berzerk is thankfully hopping towards some sort of conclusion with Griffith finally out in the open again. However, with all these ongoing manga, anime starts losing source material to work off of. Claymore had a WONDERFUL opportunity... then the anime went and created its own ending while the manga continued onwards. Trinity Blood was interesting and promised a very rich backstory, then they had to cut it short when the artist died. Even with Bleach and Naruto, as bland as they are, the best episodes are the ones based off the manga. Outside of manga, there are precious few anime directors who can tell a coherent story, and even fewer studios that can realize their visions.

[Scream Man]

One thing to consider, even amoungst anime fans, is subjectivity. Akilae mentioned Sailor Moon, Pokemon and Cardcaptors, and gave a 'shudder'. Now i know a lot of people who have similar reavctions to these shows; the kiddie shows of anime; Digimon and Yu-gi-oh are a coupole of otehr ones that spring to mind.

next time u feel that "Lord these are lame" sensation, go back and watch an original episode of VOltron or Thundercats. And really listen to the lame dialogue. Sit through the bit at the end, the message (If it has one, like Sailor Moon). And then look me in the eye and tell me honestly that we were so much cooler than the kids now are

For the record; My 27yr old wife loves Sailor Moon, I personally always dug Cardcaptors, and a goodmate of mine is a huge Pokemon fan. It happens Who are we to judge

Personal taste is a funny thing. I loved Robotech to death a as kid, loved Macross when i discovered it in the early 90's. I still love it. But Frontier is....The fanservice is over the top for me. i will happily watch other anime on my lunch break at wqork....but frontier, always makes me a little embaressed. To me, it is representing that element of anime that many get picked on for.

Make of that what u like

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

That's why I like anime that isn't just aimed at a speicifc audience or "fans" of anime. Just wants to tell its story and is actually good for anyone who likes good stories and wants to be entertained. The more of a formula there is to something, the easier it is to get all jaded and cranky about it and say: "seen it before. Anime today sucks kiddies! In my day things were better..."

Edited June 27, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker