one_one Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well it seems in the last poll the YF-21 came out on top over the YF-19 and maybe this poll is redundant but someone suggested that the VF-19 vs the VF-22 would be a better comparison as they are more equal. So, althougth in the series the VF-22 becam the 'elite' plane which do YOU think is better and why. No need to repeat what has been said on other posts about the debates about certain things, just why you think it is better and any reasons? Pro's and cons of each plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 VF-19A or VF-19S? Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 VF-19A or VF-19S? Big difference. Not big enough, IMHO. VF-22, hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effect Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 VF-22 gets my vote. From Macross 7 is appears to be faster, more fire power, and better maneuverability. Please three of my favorite characters each pilot one(Max, Milia, and Gamlin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 well, at least i'm not the lone VF-19 vote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uxi Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 VF-22. Max chose it, so it had to be the best. Even dumbed down from the YF-21, it's still more advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchVile Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 The VF-22s is better, look at the weapon load out. Not to mention the VF-22s seems to have better atmospheric manuverability and a simpler transformation, seems like there are less things that could go wrong during that critial and vunerable time. Also the ability to continue on without any limbs is a great advantage during combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane29 Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 In the end since both Vf are close to even in ablitiies, it goes down to the pilot. Example, look at what Isamu did in the VF-11 in the begining of Mac plus. Compare that to how the 11s were cannon fodder in Macross 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Not to mention passive stealth. The active stealth on the VF-19 goes down, it's gonna have one mean radar signature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 (edited) Aegis Focker flew VF-11Bs and later on the VF-19A(you can tell from one of the stills). In one of the later missions after a long dogfight he managed to dispatch Commander Garland's VF-22 although the latter was equipped with a jammer device so its still up to pilot ability. You put duds in VF-22s and they become cannon fodder as well. Besides the high cost of production for the VF-22 means far fewer can be produce and not to mention the higher maintenance and support needed. If it not for the "i cannot be killed complex" of Max and Milia even the pair of VF-22s will be overwhelm by the much larger force of FZ-109s. I think a high/low mix of VF-19s and 22s backed up by lots of AIF-7B Ghost drones offer the better option. Edited October 24, 2003 by hellohikaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Personally, I beleive it's the VF-22 Sturmvogel anyway, regardless of whether we use YF or VF. I also very much dislike the changes made to the YF-19 when it was put into mass production. Those wings are just terrible, the head is over-stylized, and the ankles/engine covers look way too blocky compared to the YF-19. On the flip side, the VF-22 looks every bit as good as it did in Macross Plus. Sometimes I even like the cockpit more in the VF-22 than the YF-21. 'Bout the only thing of the VF-19 they got right over the YF-19 was the color, which happens to be my favorite...blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross_Fanboy Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 VF-19. And the VF-22 only seems superior because of the characters that fly them. Like what hellohikaru said, Max and Millia CAN'T die. They're too important to the Macross 7 series so they need to be kept alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 'Bout the only thing of the VF-19 they got right over the YF-19 was the color, which happens to be my favorite...blue You DO mean RED, dont you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UN Spacy Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I couldn't vote for either because I also think it's up to the pilot to truely bring out the VF's capabilities. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchVile Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 (edited) What about Docker? He was flying a VF-19s, it blew up, and he didn't die. Don't argue with me on this, I don't feel like taking screen caps. Edited October 24, 2003 by ArchVile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 'Bout the only thing of the VF-19 they got right over the YF-19 was the color, which happens to be my favorite...blue You DO mean RED, dont you? I mean blue. VF-19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 VF-19. And the VF-22 only seems superior because of the characters that fly them. Like what hellohikaru said, Max and Millia CAN'T die. They're too important to the Macross 7 series so they need to be kept alive. The VF-19 is tomorrow's cannon fodder. The reason the aces get the VF-22 is because it's more expensive (and they'd already settled on mass producing the 19), but is still the superior plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radd Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 VF-19. And the VF-22 only seems superior because of the characters that fly them. Like what hellohikaru said, Max and Millia CAN'T die. They're too important to the Macross 7 series so they need to be kept alive. The VF-19 is tomorrow's cannon fodder. The reason the aces get the VF-22 is because it's more expensive (and they'd already settled on mass producing the 19), but is still the superior plane. I agree, from everything I've seen the YF-21/VF-22 is the better plane, though in Macross Plus (and possibly VF-X2) it was the 19 that had the better pilot. Just look at how the U.N. Spacey purchased them. The 19 was purchased to replace the VF-11 as the mainstay fighter of the fleet. The new Cannon Fodder as mikeszekely put's it. Meanwhile, the VF-22 was picked up afterwards to be a special operations fighter, for only the best pilots and the most critical missions. Gamlin's VF-22 is even in Diamond Force colours, which leads me to believe that Diamond Force got upgraded from their VF-17s into some VF-22s. Think about that. The VF-19 is the replacement for the VF-11, while the VF-22 is the replacement for the VF-17. Why would they give the better pilots, and those pilots flying special missions, the worse of the two planes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_one Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests? Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatillero PR Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? Well, in the polls the VF-22/YF-21 wins, in Macross Plus you can clearly see the better performance of the YF-19 in the actual tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nied Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? If you watch the battle in episode four, it's quite clear that Guld is the better pilot. While Isamu wasted ammo and made very few shots connect, Guld bided his time forcing Isamu to expend his ammo, while carfully removing Isamu's fixed weapons (blowing off his fast packs, stealing his gunpod and even nocking his head laser off). Only after Isamu was rendered virtually defenseless did he try to deliver a killing blow with his micro missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_one Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? If you watch the battle in episode four, it's quite clear that Guld is the better pilot. While Isamu wasted ammo and made very few shots connect, Guld bided his time forcing Isamu to expend his ammo, while carfully removing Isamu's fixed weapons (blowing off his fast packs, stealing his gunpod and even nocking his head laser off). Only after Isamu was rendered virtually defenseless did he try to deliver a killing blow with his micro missiles. But you could argue that althougth both Guld and Isamu were really pissed at each other it was only Guld who was fighting to the death and tring to kill Isamu. isamu knewing the truth had no desire to kill Guld. Plus it would have been Isamu who won the fight. Guld put all his eggs into one basket so to speak and failed. If Isamu had wanted to kill him he could have blwon guld sky high ater Guld thougth he was succesful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 'Bout the only thing of the VF-19 they got right over the YF-19 was the color, which happens to be my favorite...blue You DO mean RED, dont you? I mean blue. VF-19 even the Fire Valk get's bashed a lot, i love it's color, it seems like the perfect shade of red. so i guess u could say the VF-19 was in blue and red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSuchFile Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 VF-22 seems better, I really don't think the UNS made it it's special mission aircraft just for fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? If you watch the battle in episode four, it's quite clear that Guld is the better pilot. While Isamu wasted ammo and made very few shots connect, Guld bided his time forcing Isamu to expend his ammo, while carfully removing Isamu's fixed weapons (blowing off his fast packs, stealing his gunpod and even nocking his head laser off). Only after Isamu was rendered virtually defenseless did he try to deliver a killing blow with his micro missiles. But you could argue that althougth both Guld and Isamu were really pissed at each other it was only Guld who was fighting to the death and tring to kill Isamu. isamu knewing the truth had no desire to kill Guld. Plus it would have been Isamu who won the fight. Guld put all his eggs into one basket so to speak and failed. If Isamu had wanted to kill him he could have blwon guld sky high ater Guld thougth he was succesful. Or maybe Guld is a simply a better tactician, while Isamu can handle the vehicle better. We do know from those little colored bar chart thingies that the 22 was killing the 19 until Isamu became the team's test pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radd Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons? Guld is good, don't get me wrong he was definitely Ace material, but it's very clearly shown in Macross Plus that flying is everything to Isamu. He doesn't just fly because he likes to, he flies because to him it's like breathing.He's not just overenthusiastic, he is most at home in the cockpit of a fighter plane. Guld does not give off that impression at all, really. It seems he became a fighter pilot for different reasons (perhaps in an attempt to out-do his rival). As for the test performance bars in Macross Plus, well, I was lead to believe that Isamu's skill as a fighter pilot lent itself to the success of the 19 during the tests. After all, if it was solely the performance of the fighter itself, wouldn't the 19 have been winning before Isamu showed up? I still stand by my view that the military would not have picked up the superior fighter to replace their cannon fodder, and then used the inferior fighter to replace their special operations Valkyries. I also don't see how anyone else could think that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nied Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 But you could argue that althougth both Guld and Isamu were really pissed at each other it was only Guld who was fighting to the death and tring to kill Isamu. isamu knewing the truth had no desire to kill Guld. Plus it would have been Isamu who won the fight. Guld put all his eggs into one basket so to speak and failed. If Isamu had wanted to kill him he could have blwon guld sky high ater Guld thougth he was succesful. If Isamu were the one operating with a cool head, he would have been the one to systematically disarm Guld. But he didn't , he just fired away wildly expending his ammo, while Guld carefully removed his offensive weaponry. By the time Guld fired his missiles Isamu was defenseless, no gunpod, no lasers, no missiles. If Guld hadn't had his sudden epiphany he could have just fired off another shot and been done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imode Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 But you could argue that althougth both Guld and Isamu were really pissed at each other it was only Guld who was fighting to the death and tring to kill Isamu. isamu knewing the truth had no desire to kill Guld. Plus it would have been Isamu who won the fight. Guld put all his eggs into one basket so to speak and failed. If Isamu had wanted to kill him he could have blwon guld sky high ater Guld thougth he was succesful. If Isamu were the one operating with a cool head, he would have been the one to systematically disarm Guld. But he didn't , he just fired away wildly expending his ammo, while Guld carefully removed his offensive weaponry. By the time Guld fired his missiles Isamu was defenseless, no gunpod, no lasers, no missiles. If Guld hadn't had his sudden epiphany he could have just fired off another shot and been done with it. He did all that? Wasn't he still shooting at the Ghost after the whole Guld fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangard Ace Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 He did all that?Wasn't he still shooting at the Ghost after the whole Guld fight? Yup. Isamu was shooting at the Ghost after the dogfight(both movie and OVA versions.) Also Guld was the more reckless of the two when it came to firing off weaponry. More missiles, more gunpods shots, more property damage...etc. If you re-watch that episode Isamu was on Gulds six when they were heading into the city and during part of the city chase. Why didn't he shoot down Guld? For the most part Isamu was flying defensive against Guld. He was there to fight the Ghost, not Guld. Oh, and Isamu losing his gunpod and head laser was because of debris from when Guld crashed through that building. I very much doubt that that effect was calculated by Guld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_one Posted October 26, 2003 Author Share Posted October 26, 2003 I still stand by my view that the military would not have picked up the superior fighter to replace their cannon fodder, and then used the inferior fighter to replace their special operations Valkyries. I also don't see how anyone else could think that either. Well I suppose you could argue that one of the reasons the vf-22 was given to the speciall operations was not because it was superior (or inferior) but because the enemy had no experience against it. Obviously the more you fight against planes the more you learn about them them and the more you know. Also in training you learn about the planes you are going up against and thier capabilities, so in this case the enemy would know loads more and be more experienced against the VF-19's. So for the elite rather than designing and buliding a brand new plane which would take time and money they already had all the information and data for the YF-21 so it was a obvious choice. When coming up against the VF-22's the enemy wouldn't not know anything about it and seeing as only small groups will be getting the VF-22 the enemy will not have much time to learn giving the VF-22's a big advantage which is why they were chosen to be given to the elite and used for special operations. Plus the VF-22 does have a superiror stealth system ideal for the kind of missions it will be undertaking. Plus you could argue that they wouldn't have chosen an inferior plane to be thier main fighter, especially ig it is going to be your main line of defence and your whole civilsation might deppend on it at some point, espcially as I don't remeber (could be very wrong tho) that UN spacy had any money/bidget problems. It has been said that the Yf-21 was destroyed but didn't some one say there was another yf-21 with normal controls?. Plus all the test data schematis etc for the plane would still all be intact which is where they would have built the plane from. Some people also argue about the YF-21 being too expensive, then why was it tested in the first place? The YF-21 was one out of only two contenders so the budget of the plan must have already been taken into consideration before testing.As I asiad I don't think there have been too many problems with UN Spacy's budget. Of course I don't neccersarily agree with all this but i'm just putting some arguments out for how you could argue the YF-19 was the better or equal plane and why certain choice were made or not made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlenhoff Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Guys I saw a couple of apisodes of Macross 7 dymamite, and I never saw a VF-22. I'm watching the wrong Macross7? BTW my fav. is the 19, but since I haven't seen the VF-22 on macross 7 Dynamite yet, I'm not voting. vic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 G limits: YF-19: +31.0/-18.5 YF-21: +32.5/-17.2 VF-19F: +35.5, -19.5 VF-22: +60/-45 Gotten from the Macross compendium: http://macross.anime.net/mecha/index.html Now I don't know much about G-forces and all, but would I be wrong in guessing that the VF-22 can handle much more G forces than the prototype 21, and all the 19 models? If the 22 can handle more Gs, than its maneuverability is less limited than the 19 models and even the 21, right? So the 22 is potentially much more maneuverable than the 19. I think the 22 is the better fighter, see everyone's elses arguments as for why. But, damn the YF-19 and the VF-19A look cool! I agree with Radd. -Just a side note for Macross Plus fans In Macross Plus Movie Edition after the 21s arms and legs have been blown off and Guld is chasing down the Ghost, he starts blasting away at it with lasers. I think they messed up, since the only lasers that can fire forwards in Fighter mode were located in the arm portions of the valkyrie which already got blown off! Another thing is that supposedly Isamu lost his gunpod while fighting Guld, and when we see the underside of the 19 after Guld's final attack, we see that the 19 lacks its gunpod. However, later when the Ghost comes around, Isamu starts trying to gun it down with his magically appearing gunpod! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Plus you could argue that they wouldn't have chosen an inferior plane to be thier main fighter, especially ig it is going to be your main line of defence and your whole civilsation might deppend on it at some point, espcially as I don't remeber (could be very wrong tho) that UN spacy had any money/bidget problems. I don't know about that one. Afterall, the USAF picked the YF-22 over the YF-23, which a lot of us at MW consider the inferior plane. But, the YF-22 was cheaper and more conventional than the YF-23. A government doesn't have to have money problems to limit their military's budget. Usually, if there's an overt threat, the military gets more money, but in times of peace, it's put on a budget. For example, when the ATF competition was going on, the US was still involved in the Cold War. When the YF-22 was declared the winner in 1991, the program called for 648 planes at $86.6 billion. But since the Cold War ended and the subsequent military reviews, by May of 1997 that was cut to 339 planes and $58.3 billion. In 1999, proposals were made to delay funding of the initial aircraft for two years, and in the end some experts predict that there will be as few as 125 for the final production numbers. (source: Superfighters, from AIRtime Publishing Inc.) In the years since Space War One, the UN military has had to deal with Zentraedi seperatists and anti-UN terrorist groups, but at 2040 they were more or less in peace time. The YF-19 would definately have been a lot cheaper than the YF-21 and would use more conventional technologies (no BDS, BDI, or mission adaptive wings), scored high enough with Isamu as the pilot, and perhaps most importantly, was left standing in the dust of the Sharon Apple incident. The UN probably felt that the YF-19 was good enough, and left it at that. (More budget concerns would affect the deployment of the VF-19, again paralleling the F-22). After General Galaxy gets around to re-tooling the YF-21 design, they have eliminated some of the most costly systems, but were still left with superior fighter. General Galaxy re-submitted the design to the UN, and they decided to purchase the design in limited numbers for special ops because it was superior. Data or no data, spec ops groups always get the best equipment, while the grunts get the cannon fodder equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effect Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 (edited) Guys I saw a couple of apisodes of Macross 7 dymamite, and I never saw a VF-22. I'm watching the wrong Macross7?BTW my fav. is the 19, but since I haven't seen the VF-22 on macross 7 Dynamite yet, I'm not voting. vic. The VF-22 doesn't show up in Macross 7 Dynamite till episode 3(near the end) and 4. Its being piloted by Gamlin when he goes to look for Basara. Its in the Diamond Force colors so its all black. Its actually in action in the last episode I believe. Also in Macross 7 it doesn't show up till the very end, when Max leads the assult on Vaurta and during the final battle where Max and Miriya are both piloting one in their own colors. Edited October 26, 2003 by Effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 'Bout the only thing of the VF-19 they got right over the YF-19 was the color, which happens to be my favorite...blue You DO mean RED, dont you? I mean blue. VF-19 even the Fire Valk get's bashed a lot, i love it's color, it seems like the perfect shade of red. so i guess u could say the VF-19 was in blue and red. Well, I like blue, so I like the blue VF-19 version. The red looks okay I suppose, but it's not my favorite. I actually do like the tan color of the YF-19, but given a choice, I'd pick blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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