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Terminator Salvation, colon, Really Long Movie Title


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If only they had made an ending where humans prevented the Judgement Day from ever happening, and Skynet from ever being created....oh wait!

*best arnie voice* You can not stop judgement day, you can only postpone it. Please insert credit to play.

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i just saw it today.

well, it wasn't a complete waste of time. but almost everything was wrong with the movie.

it clearly shows that the writers & director didn't understand Cameron's "vision".

it felt exactly like what Verhoeven(?) did to Starship Troopers.

yes. it's better than T3.

it was entertaining & funny, with some of the highlights being...

-"magnetic mines..." *CLINK* *BOOM* !!!

wait... what?! they still brought him into the base?

writer stupidity carrying over from writer stupidity in T3

-"night-time firefight & napalm scene"

if a car radio alerts machines, then an all-out firefight doesn't? and all that radio chatter & A10 patrols didn't seem to be interesting to Skynet.

any of that would've gotten the resistance compromised/killed.

-"elbow drop to a metal chest plate"

i can see how he could've reached the heart that way.

-"human-friendly interface"

this is actually an inherent flaw for Skynet. a machine hell-bent on wiping out mankind builds standard USB ports in its killing machines.

you know, so the humans can hack & steal stuff conveniently.

in the end, me & my friend agreed that it wasn't so bad, but it wasn't actually a true Terminator movie.

it's

Robocop vs Terminator. Marcus is the key

:lol:

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Well, I'm not arguing it was "good" but it's understandable they would drag marcus into the base.

Pilot chick clearly states that he stepped on a mine, not that the mine attached itself to marcus. And at that point, nobody, even JC, believed that there were believable human looking terminators out there. The only humanoid terminator the resistance knew was out in the field was the 600 model and marcus clearly seemed human.

I agree that all the napalm and radioi chatter seemed a bit careless. But the dialogue in the movie made it seem like Skynet and the resistance had carved out territories for themselves. There's frequent talk of "skynet has never operated this deep before", etc. And also, that napalm wasn't to keep marcus in, it was deployed to keep skynet out. So by the time they thought they would have to use it, I'm sure the resistance figured that the gig was up and there was no need to be sneaky anymore.

The UI... meh, it's like aliens that speak english.

I don't think it was these little things that resigned this movie to the "meh" aisle. There were some deep structural and thematic problems... problems that got carried over from T3 when it became abundantly clear that the producers of the franchise wanted to turn a smart character driven dialogue on free will versus determinism into a mindless and soulless action movie.

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Considering Arnold was "killed" at the end of T2 by being lowered in molten slag, seems sort of odd that this 800/101 could survive it. While one could argue that they were different metals and/or kept at different temperatures it's not really relevant. The 800 was presented as essentially invincible (yet somehow Marcus could basically tear its head off...yeah, ok).

As for the surgery, sure you don't see it, but seeing as how he goes out and wakes up on the same table in the middle of the friggin desert or whatever, it is a safe assumption it was done on site.

I've actually had experience in a foundry and melting and pouring molten metal, molten metal cools VERY rapidly as it's being poured. There's going to be a pretty bing temperature difference between a vat of molten steel being kept liquid and the same liquid, removed from the heat source, falling 15 ft and then being spread out.

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Fair enough, admittedly I'm no metal expert. Of all my gripes about the film that was way down on the list. The helicopters flying so close to a nuclear blast at the end was more irritating.

But those are mostly just nit picks, I thought the story itself was fairly shallow and uninteresting. Aside from metal skeletons, it didn't feel like Terminator to me.

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Fair enough, admittedly I'm no metal expert. Of all my gripes about the film that was way down on the list. The helicopters flying so close to a nuclear blast at the end was more irritating.

But those are mostly just nit picks, I thought the story itself was fairly shallow and uninteresting. Aside from metal skeletons, it didn't feel like Terminator to me.

true true. I really think that the moral issues and the ideas of free will versus determinism are what made Terminator 1 and 2 so good. The series ended with T2 imo, the last two movies are just elaborate fanfic.

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Though if Skynet knows of Reese being Conner's father, then don't build the time machine. Then Reese can't go back, and Conner can't exist. Oh wait, that even brings into question the whole series. LOL

Time travel is very tricky, especially if you write as you go along on the set. ;)

I do agree that it is very lame for a story not to be properly explain the plot during the film. Then again, I didn't read LOTR, and after 9 hours watching it, I was still questioning why not recreate the rings instead of chasing them for 9 hours. LOL

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none of those things addressed in either interviews are "plot holes"

Yup, pretty softball questions. What's funny is that the interview makes it seem like THOSE are the questions everyone is wondering about rather than all plot holes and plain stupid events in the movie. One of the comments on that page had much better questions.

I do agree that it is very lame for a story not to be properly explain the plot during the film. Then again, I didn't read LOTR, and after 9 hours watching it, I was still questioning why not recreate the rings instead of chasing them for 9 hours. LOL

Sauron wasn't even officially back from the spirit world yet. He hadn't taken physical form in order to do any hocus pocus. He needed the ring first to come all the way back. Besides the ring was always a threat as it could be used to destroy him, so he needed it regardless. What you should be asking is why not do this:

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Read the interview.

Doesnt make sense:

Anton Yelchin: When Connor sent Kyle back, that was a world in which Kyle wasn't Connor's father. So when he sent him back, it then started this chain of the Connor that you have in [all the sequels] where Kyle Reese is his father — it'll be interesting how they tackle that [in future sequels] if we ever get to a point we have to send [Kyle] back.

Uh. So... Connor existed before Kyle wasn't even his father yet? So Connor had some other father who basically was phased out of the picture when Kyle came into play. So what does it even matter IF Kyle died in TS? He's going to have his original father for backup sperm. Moronic.

Once you start playing around with the idea of alternate futures and pasts, you're basically going to have a situation where

a. You won't be able to win the war in all alternate realities no matter what you do.

b. You won't be able to lose the war in all alternate realities no matter what you do.

c. There are fundamentally infinite realities regardless of the existence of time machines as difference choices in each reality fork into new realities.

d. If the characters in the reality that TS belongs to is indeed one of many realities, then they will realise that no matter what happens to Kyle Reese in TS (or Sarah and John Connor in a past of one of the realities) will affect the reality they are currently in. There will be no 'disappearing' John effect if his mother was killed off, since that would only spawn a NEW alternate parallel reality where there is no John. John in the TS reality will continue to persist.

e. Time machines will be mighty complex, as not only will they need to designate a time and place, but a dimensional plane as well. Which past do you send someone back to? The effects would spawn a new future, but not change the pre-existing future. Even going forward in time is a problem (happens in TSCC, even though it is outside of this continuity loop).

Simply put, you open up a whole can of worms that will completely undermine the logic behind the first two movies, as no matter what Skynet does now or in the past will ever matter, as it will only affect the Skynet created in new alternate realities.

Edited by Cent
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Yes, they already established this in T3 and in T:TSCC... they abandoned the idea of a special relativity style causality loop with the 2nd movie. Ever since T2 the timeline became fluid with alternate futures possible.

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Just watched it. Pretty entertaining. I liked the special effects and the loud noises. Very well done in that dept. My expectations were piss poor due to everyone ranting about it here but it wasn't half bad for me by the end of it. Sure we can point fingers at lame writing sometimes but some of them might not be fully deserved.

it was entertaining & funny, with some of the highlights being...

-"magnetic mines..." *CLINK* *BOOM* !!!

wait... what?! they still brought him into the base?

writer stupidity carrying over from writer stupidity in T3

Well....they thought he was a guy with a prosthetic limb until they opened up his shirt....i can forgive that.

-"night-time firefight & napalm scene"

if a car radio alerts machines, then an all-out firefight doesn't? and all that radio chatter & A10 patrols didn't seem to be interesting to Skynet.

any of that would've gotten the resistance compromised/killed.

As eugimon said, it would seem that Skynet isn't all powerful yet and has yet to crank out the war machinery, so the resistance and the machines have carved out some territories for themselves and neither has the military power to overwhelm the other in its turf. Forgiven.

-"elbow drop to a metal chest plate"

i can see how he could've reached the heart that way.

:lol:

-"human-friendly interface"

this is actually an inherent flaw for Skynet. a machine hell-bent on wiping out mankind builds standard USB ports in its killing machines.

you know, so the humans can hack & steal stuff conveniently.

To be funny, Skynet should just pretend that its made in China and made all UI be in Chinese or soemthing. On that note it would be interesting to know what's happening to the rest of the world. Everything is still localised to post-apocalyptic US though.

in the end, me & my friend agreed that it wasn't so bad, but it wasn't actually a true Terminator movie.

It sat down better with me after knowing this took place in 2018 , before the war escalates further in 2029 where the Resistance was more desperate. I'll just say "Cameron's Future War" has not happened yet...and will happen eventually....hopefully.

As for the "silly writing" parts that bugged me.

**SPOILERS**

- Kill Connor Grand Plan

Elaborate plan to lure JC into base where he will be killed by a single T-800. Weren't there T-1s and many other T-800s in the viscinity? Or give the T-800 a gun for chrissakes. Or maybe blow up a part of the base along with Connor with it for good measure. This plan to kill him is flawed on so many levels it isn't funny. Oh and yeah....why the !@*(&!( does Kate who is pregnant, need to come see John personally. =.=;;

- Marcus oopsie

Skynet not so smart are you? Telling Marcus where your loyalty chip is and making it easy for him to rip it out? And with Marcus as the infiltrator prototype, it would seem they have thrown the whole rubber skinned T-800s from the original timeline out of the window.

- Kyle Reese knowledge and time travelling

I'm sure many "fan wank" theories can be made to skirt this issue but yeah the movie never explained this. If it knows who is Kyle Reese then it will also know that it will create a time machine....and that's a whoollleee can of worms. I have a headache.

- Plasma gun?

Was the T-600 that JC avoided when entering the base holding a plasma gun? I saw it for a split second and i think it was.

-Nuclear or N2 (non-nuclear)?

I think they have to work on what's nuclear and what's not in this series. It would seem that the nuke-like explosions in the whole franchise may not be nukes at all. In fact where's the radiation poisoning? Where's the EMP? And I hate T3 for introducing the nuclear fuel cells which were re-used in T4.

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Simply put, you open up a whole can of worms that will completely undermine the logic behind the first two movies, as no matter what Skynet does now or in the past will ever matter, as it will only affect the Skynet created in new alternate realities.

Yeah that's what i said few pages back. There will be no reason for Skynet to even send back terminators to kill sarah or john since the current skynet is as good as dead despite the interferences it makes in other realities.

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The Resistance should create more EMP based weapons if they want to finish off the machines. Anyway one thing that really disturbs me, how did Skynet know that Kyle Resse would be the future father of John Connor and thus make him the number one target in the assassination list ?

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The Resistance should create more EMP based weapons if they want to finish off the machines. Anyway one thing that really disturbs me, how did Skynet know that Kyle Resse would be the future father of John Connor and thus make him the number one target in the assassination list ?

skynet doesn't need to know that kyle is John's dad, it's enough that he's the one that saves Sarah to target him for termination.

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Good movie. Sam Worthington did a good job as Marcus. The nod to Arnold was cool. Ending was beyond dumb.

I wonder if the extended cut will feature more action or more story/character elements...this movie could use a bit more character development.

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Heh, Noel sent me this link, which is quite funny.

On another related subject, I went it to Toys R Us for the first time in about a month and saw they had the Playmates Terminator toys. Boy, do those thing look sucky! Sculpt and articulation-wise, they reminded me of action figures from the 80s'!

Graham

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As for the "silly writing" parts that bugged me.

**SPOILERS**

- Kill Connor Grand Plan

Elaborate plan to lure JC into base where he will be killed by a single T-800. Weren't there T-1s and many other T-800s in the viscinity? Or give the T-800 a gun for chrissakes. Or maybe blow up a part of the base along with Connor with it for good measure. This plan to kill him is flawed on so many levels it isn't funny. Oh and yeah....why the !@*(&!( does Kate who is pregnant, need to come see John personally. =.=;;

- Marcus oopsie

Skynet not so smart are you? Telling Marcus where your loyalty chip is and making it easy for him to rip it out? And with Marcus as the infiltrator prototype, it would seem they have thrown the whole rubber skinned T-800s from the original timeline out of the window.

- Kyle Reese knowledge and time travelling

I'm sure many "fan wank" theories can be made to skirt this issue but yeah the movie never explained this. If it knows who is Kyle Reese then it will also know that it will create a time machine....and that's a whoollleee can of worms. I have a headache.

- Plasma gun?

Was the T-600 that JC avoided when entering the base holding a plasma gun? I saw it for a split second and i think it was.

-Nuclear or N2 (non-nuclear)?

I think they have to work on what's nuclear and what's not in this series. It would seem that the nuke-like explosions in the whole franchise may not be nukes at all. In fact where's the radiation poisoning? Where's the EMP? And I hate T3 for introducing the nuclear fuel cells which were re-used in T4.

1) You can poke holes in that plot all day. The basic idea of using Marcus to unwittingly lure J.Connor to Skynet was a great idea, but the trap that was sprung was lame. Yes, the T-800 was great, but this trap was sprung in an area dominated by Skynet. You'd THINK that Skynet would swarm in the whole facility with T-600's or whatever once John Connor was isolated in the building. Or, as you said, give the T-800 a gun.

2) Kyle Reese thingie... I wondered how Skynet learned of Reese's importance. It was NEVER stated to anyone outside the Connors. Not even the friendly T-800 in T2 knew about Reese being John's Father.

3) No humanoid sized Plasma weaponry were shown in TSalvation. The only thing we see is from the Harvester (and personally, the idea of a Harvester is idiotic, but that's just me. I blame "Bayformers" for that). The T-600's used miniguns, maybe even a Grenade Launcher (the one that pursued Marcus and Kyle in L.A.).

4) T3 introduced the idea of Hydrogen fuel cells for the Terminators, not nuclear. TSalvation I think is taking off with it. Not sure if T2 stated the power sources for the Terminators.

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Good movie. Sam Worthington did a good job as Marcus. The nod to Arnold was cool. Ending was beyond dumb.

I wonder if the extended cut will feature more action or more story/character elements...this movie could use a bit more character development.

The franchise could really use a sequel truer to the

.
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I'm going to give this movie a 2.7 out of 5. This means I would see it at the cinema once, but once only and will not be buying the DVD.

It's an enjoyable enough summer action movie IMO, but you really need to turn your brain off at the door, not worry about the numerous glaring mile-wide plot holes and just enjoy the flashy visuals.

Graham

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- Marcus oopsie

Skynet not so smart are you? Telling Marcus where your loyalty chip is and making it easy for him to rip it out?

exactly! plus the fact that the chips are apparently installed just on top of the base of the skull. same thing with the 600's targeting chips. stupid design. i guess that's how "smart" this new "Internets Skynet" is.

- Plasma gun?

Was the T-600 that JC avoided when entering the base holding a plasma gun? I saw it for a split second and i think it was.

i believe it was an FN F2000. they used the T800, governator likeness, the moto-terminators had plasma cannons all in wonderful CG, but they didn't want to spend for the 40watt plasma rifle. <_<

-Nuclear or N2 (non-nuclear)?

I think they have to work on what's nuclear and what's not in this series. It would seem that the nuke-like explosions in the whole franchise may not be nukes at all. In fact where's the radiation poisoning? Where's the EMP? And I hate T3 for introducing the nuclear fuel cells which were re-used in T4.

every explosion looked like it was nuclear, minus the radiation. maybe they think all explosions end with mushroom clouds. <_<

yeah, i hate those not-nuke batteries too. everything in T3 was a pointless leap backwards in terminator tech.

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skynet doesn't need to know that kyle is John's dad, it's enough that he's the one that saves Sarah to target him for termination.

This is the last time I'm going to post about the movie on this board, because the more I think about this movie, the more I honestly hate it. However, I can't let this explanation slip by unchallenged. The movie falls completely apart as a logical sequel because of this plot point.

How does skynet know ANYTHING about Kyle Reese? Does it matter if it knows that he's John's father or just the schlub who was chosen to be sent back to protect Sarah? Answer: Skynet doesn't and can't know ANYTHING about Reese, and there's NOTHING in any of the other movies to suggest that skynet might know who he is, what he does at any time, that he exists, or WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE. This is post Judgement Day. There are no records, and Reese did NOT yell to the hoverboard "Hey! I'm Kyle Reese!" To make the logic of Salvation work, you have to significantly diminish the quality of the T1-T2 storylines to the level of Salvation. I choose not to because to do so means there's no longer any purpose in the storyline for the viewer to have to pay attention. Instead of a deus ex machina explaining away the plot holes as "God did it" we now have a slightly different one saying "Time travel did it". Regardless that's poor storytelling 101.

T3 was a what-if, and even with it's problems, easy to dismiss. Salvation was supposed to be similar to Cameron's future war, and it's light years away from the ballpark. Watch the link that's been posted a few times in this thread to see the dramatic change in tone that's consistent with T1-T2. There's a lot more terminating in those short clips than in the whole of Salvation.

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Heh, Noel sent me this link, which is quite funny.

On another related subject, I went it to Toys R Us for the first time in about a month and saw they had the Playmates Terminator toys. Boy, do those thing look sucky! Sculpt and articulation-wise, they reminded me of action figures from the 80s'!

Graham

Hahahahaha! Fully agree with those loopholes though some i didn't catch myself like why the T-600 firing on Marcus. Guess i must be dumbing myself down to Hollywood levels unconciously. nooooo.

Skynet - That isn't Skynet central is it? Its just one of its many bastions. And even if it was, since skynet is a distributed computer system, taking that down will not hamper it much.

About FM Radio though, can they really be tracked where they are being received?

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This is the last time I'm going to post about the movie on this board, because the more I think about this movie, the more I honestly hate it. However, I can't let this explanation slip by unchallenged. The movie falls completely apart as a logical sequel because of this plot point.

How does skynet know ANYTHING about Kyle Reese? Does it matter if it knows that he's John's father or just the schlub who was chosen to be sent back to protect Sarah? Answer: Skynet doesn't and can't know ANYTHING about Reese, and there's NOTHING in any of the other movies to suggest that skynet might know who he is, what he does at any time, that he exists, or WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE. This is post Judgement Day. There are no records, and Reese did NOT yell to the hoverboard "Hey! I'm Kyle Reese!" To make the logic of Salvation work, you have to significantly diminish the quality of the T1-T2 storylines to the level of Salvation. I choose not to because to do so means there's no longer any purpose in the storyline for the viewer to have to pay attention. Instead of a deus ex machina explaining away the plot holes as "God did it" we now have a slightly different one saying "Time travel did it". Regardless that's poor storytelling 101.

T3 was a what-if, and even with it's problems, easy to dismiss. Salvation was supposed to be similar to Cameron's future war, and it's light years away from the ballpark. Watch the link that's been posted a few times in this thread to see the dramatic change in tone that's consistent with T1-T2. There's a lot more terminating in those short clips than in the whole of Salvation.

Well, there's a plausible, in series reason...T3. The police have kyle's body and we know that T-X interfaced with the police computers and later with skynet. Right there a lot of the supposed "how does skynet know" plot holes disappear. Skynet knows more than it's supposed to because T-X from the future managed to interface with the skynet in the past.

Besides, trying to match up TS to what's been shown in the previous movies is pointless because one of the basic ideas of the films is that the future is in motion so everytime a terminator went back in time it changed the future... so yes, there's going to be details in TS that don't match up to the first two movies, that's not a plot hole, that's the whole point.

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Heh, Noel sent me this link, which is quite funny.

On another related subject, I went it to Toys R Us for the first time in about a month and saw they had the Playmates Terminator toys. Boy, do those thing look sucky! Sculpt and articulation-wise, they reminded me of action figures from the 80s'!

Graham

Hilarious link. Makes you scratch your head about this flick.

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Well, there's a plausible, in series reason...T3. The police have kyle's body and we know that T-X interfaced with the police computers and later with skynet. Right there a lot of the supposed "how does skynet know" plot holes disappear. Skynet knows more than it's supposed to because T-X from the future managed to interface with the skynet in the past.

Besides, trying to match up TS to what's been shown in the previous movies is pointless because one of the basic ideas of the films is that the future is in motion so everytime a terminator went back in time it changed the future... so yes, there's going to be details in TS that don't match up to the first two movies, that's not a plot hole, that's the whole point.

There would have been no way Skynet would be able to facially recognize Kyle Reese from any information he may have left behind when he traveled back in time to defend Sarah Connor. It is possibly that some how Skynet knew the name Kyle Reese, but Kyle was born post Judgement Day(Aug, 29, 1997) if you discount any SCC time lines which is considered an alternate time line that doesn't follow the movies. There would be no record linking his face to the name.

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There would have been no way Skynet would be able to facially recognize Kyle Reese from any information he may have left behind when he traveled back in time to defend Sarah Connor. It is possibly that some how Skynet knew the name Kyle Reese, but Kyle was born post Judgement Day(Aug, 29, 1997) if you discount any SCC time lines which is considered an alternate time line that doesn't follow the movies. There would be no record linking his face to the name.

The original Kyle was born post JD but not this Kyle, this kyle would have been born in 2002, 2 years before judgement day and his info would have been available to skynet.

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This is the last time I'm going to post about the movie on this board, because the more I think about this movie, the more I honestly hate it. However, I can't let this explanation slip by unchallenged. The movie falls completely apart as a logical sequel because of this plot point.

How does skynet know ANYTHING about Kyle Reese? Does it matter if it knows that he's John's father or just the schlub who was chosen to be sent back to protect Sarah? Answer: Skynet doesn't and can't know ANYTHING about Reese, and there's NOTHING in any of the other movies to suggest that skynet might know who he is, what he does at any time, that he exists, or WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE. This is post Judgement Day. There are no records, and Reese did NOT yell to the hoverboard "Hey! I'm Kyle Reese!" To make the logic of Salvation work, you have to significantly diminish the quality of the T1-T2 storylines to the level of Salvation. I choose not to because to do so means there's no longer any purpose in the storyline for the viewer to have to pay attention. Instead of a deus ex machina explaining away the plot holes as "God did it" we now have a slightly different one saying "Time travel did it". Regardless that's poor storytelling 101.

T3 was a what-if, and even with it's problems, easy to dismiss. Salvation was supposed to be similar to Cameron's future war, and it's light years away from the ballpark. Watch the link that's been posted a few times in this thread to see the dramatic change in tone that's consistent with T1-T2. There's a lot more terminating in those short clips than in the whole of Salvation.

I don't have much problem with this not being Cameron's future war.....since it obviously prequels the events of the flashbacks in T1 and T2. Hopefully they get there by the 2nd and 3rd movies though.

And as for Reese's importance, people are forgetting an even more obvious plothole. Why would current Skynet even know who is John Connor and placed him no.2 on the kill list above the Resistance leaders and generals? He's just some grunt who happens to be abit more well known than the average grunt. This would mean current Skynet has intricate knowledge of what will come to pass in the future. How does Skynet gain this knowledge? Simple. Cyberdyne's research of the original terminator CPU chip. Considering T2 Arnie had intricate knowledge of the history of Skynet, its not hard to believe that these "memories" were stored somewhere and later salvaged by Skynet after it becomes self aware. Initially everything was thought to end with the blowing up of Cyberdyne then T3 comes up with this distributed networked Skynet Internets thing. This could explain how it could facially recognise Reese.

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Simpler solution, it blututh uploaded an image of Reese from Marcus, problem solved! Just saw the movie earlier, and honestly, didn't hate it like I thought I would. Doesn't fit at all with the feel of the first 2, but it's an OK action movie. Sure there's tons of crap that doesn't make sense, but we'll just assume this Skynet is too arrogent & smug to do logical things like instantly killing targets, and building new nukes to finish off resistence...

Also, kudo's for making CG Arnie look significantly better than CG Patrick Stewart in Wolverine.

Edited by Keith
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