big F Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) So did STEALTH really rip off Macross Plus?? Never seen it (Stealth, that is) In a word YES!! I only saw it a few weeks ago and all I though was Macross plus without Battroids and a few plot changes. Mind you BSG the new series is kinda Macross more so in some ways than the original, which did give ideas for Macross in the first place. Edited June 25, 2008 by big F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeudi Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Why don't you just say the movie name??? Its kind of a punchline thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbeat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 In a word YES!! I only saw it a few weeks ago and all I though was Macross plus without Battroids and a few plot changes. Mind you BSG then new series is kinda Macross more so in some ways than the original, which did give ideas for Macross in the first place. So, with that said, is Stealth worth watching? What do you mean "BSG"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) now that i've though about it... what if the movie was done with the quality (writing/production/effects/acting) of BSG? if it can be done this way, i'd be all for it. If they could do it that way, that would be great. I just got this idea that if the movie was actually really good, more important to robotech than the cartoon ever was, then it would mean that robotech canon could be transferred from the toon version to the live action movie version of events since all the exposure to that would mean they no longer have to pander to the tiny fanbase of the toons from the 80s, and instead have a wider audience now that they can recreate the whole universe proper. (maybe then make a new RT cartoon that takes after the movie universe in designs and characters. This would be like RT rebooted for the new generation of fans) And yeah I agree just because anime hasn't turned out so great brought to live action yet, there is always a first time for everything. Maybe they could have a message at the start of the movie with "Dedicated to all pioneers.." at the start just as in injoke to piss off the "negative macross purist" trying to destroy the robotech fans' hopes of a good movie. You know I just hope they don't make robotech too much like independance day. I don't want an ID4-type tone for it where humans can say with pride that they are kicking arse when in reality it's the opposite and the earth got destroyed. It's more closer to war of the worlds where the aliens have this huge upper hand and the only reason they haven't blown the stupid little ship up yet is because of the magic battery thing inside it which is supposed to be far more important than killing the little people. It's just a story about being stalked for 1 year and the humans are lucky that the aliens are dumb-asses due to the mind control so they are distracted by all kinds of human activity not to do with war/killing which slowly breaks the aliens will. A single ship filled with the worlds culture can't hope to defeat so many just with force alone. (although with the grand cannon they got close) It's got to be a movie about freeing the mind-controlled slaves as much as it is about blowin poo up to heroically protect people from danger, if you know what I mean. War is bad, love/peace is good. Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 So, with that said, is Stealth worth watching? What do you mean "BSG"??? It's not too bad. Just don't compare it to macross plus by thinking about it so much. Relax, sit back and enjoy the movie. It's not art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 You know I'm just messin' with you, right? We can agree to disagree. No. Now I must eat your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big F Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) So, with that said, is Stealth worth watching? What do you mean "BSG"??? BattleStar Galactica Stealth is not that bad a movie visually its nice and well paced. Story wise youve kinda seen it before thats all. A true disengage eat pop corn movie. As lowviz says if they could do it in the style that has been used for the new BSG and give it inteligence it will work well. Edited June 25, 2008 by big F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisaForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 No. Now I must eat your heart. *has flashback to Temple of Doom* KALIMAAAAA!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull-1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) ROBOTECH is still totally awesome. The scope of the story beats anything Macross has managed even if it was purely an accident. That said... The sheer mangnitude of the ROBOTECH story GUARANTEES anything short of a live-action mini-series will blow. You cannot compress 85 episodes (heck you can't even compress 36) into any decent 2-hour or 3-hour movie. Just can't be done. They're going to shred this thing and when it comes out the other side it will be unrecognizable. Let us not forget that Hollywood also doesn't know diddly squat about aviation and barely much more about the military so you can expect the usual "Roger, Wilco, Over and Out!" dialogue nonsense... Ugh. OH well... Edited June 25, 2008 by Skull-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big F Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Let us not forget that Hollywood also doesn't know diddly squat about aviation and barely much more about the military so you can expect the usual "Roger, Wilco, Over and Out!" dialogue nonsense... "Chocks away Rick" "spiffing idea Roy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull-1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) "Chocks away Rick" "spiffing idea Roy" Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just hope they consult me as a dialogue editor. They cheesed the hell out of "Shadow Chronicles." Grrrr. Edited June 25, 2008 by Skull-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sh002 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 what if they made a live action dyrl as a live action robotech movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeudi Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 In a word YES!! I only saw it a few weeks ago and all I though was Macross plus without Battroids and a few plot changes. Mind you BSG the new series is kinda Macross more so in some ways than the original, which did give ideas for Macross in the first place. Beyond that.... the fighters.... look suspiciously familiar- like the bastard children of the 19 and 21. ===== There is a whole thread in here devoted to the topic, if Graham didn't delete it in a murderous rage, lol. <<It is pretty much a hated movie/topic in this forum.>> PLEASE forgive me for even mentioning it- it was meant as a joke!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeudi Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Some things I think we can count on in the Robtech LAM.... hair color will be more or less normal, not blue or green (at least for humans). Max will not wear glasses. There will be no knife fight between Max and Miriya, to avoid promoting violence against women. Roy will become Rick's actual genetic brother. Claudia will become either white, or very light skinned (think Alicia Keys) to avoid ticking off bigotted parents. Ben Dixon will be the gratuitous "Black Guy who Dies Heroicly/Early" Gloval will become British. Minmei and Misa will be roughly the same age. No loli's or cougars. The Zentraedi will be a LOT closer to micronian size. Think 'Battlefield Earth" The flight suits and helmets will be much more like real modern ones. The mecha will suck. The flight scenes will suck. Edited June 25, 2008 by daeudi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerwalk25 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 what if they made a live action dyrl as a live action robotech movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Some things I think we can count on in the Robtech LAM.... hair color will be more or less normal, not blue or green (at least for humans). The flight suits and helmets will be much more like real modern ones. The mecha will suck. The flight scenes will suck. Fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shogun029 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I won't expect anything in this movie to be profound. Just like Macross was brought to the states and sanitized and lobotomized for the American public as Robotech, the movie will likely do the same. It will just be done in a shorter period of time and will further summarize if not oversimplify the underlying themes of the original. Kinda like the Transformers movie. It's going to make its money by making generous use of special effects while ignoring elements and themes that made the original story so engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisaForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Incorrectly Fixed! Fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeudi Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Enough with the "Fixed!" Both of you. . . . My dog is getting nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisaForever Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Enough with the "Fixed!" Both of you. . . . My dog is getting turned on. Fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbeat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I won't expect anything in this movie to be profound. Just like Macross was brought to the states and sanitized and lobotomized for the American public as Robotech, the movie will likely do the same. It will just be done in a shorter period of time and will further summarize if not oversimplify the underlying themes of the original. Kinda like the Transformers movie. It's going to make its money by making generous use of special effects while ignoring elements and themes that made the original story so engaging. I feel you. That's what Hollywood is all about. But with the right script/screenwriter and the right director, it could be good. I'd rather have them have a try at it than not do one at all. Won't change my life a bit if it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull-1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) I won't expect anything in this movie to be profound. Just like Macross was brought to the states and sanitized and lobotomized for the American public as Robotech, the movie will likely do the same. It will just be done in a shorter period of time and will further summarize if not oversimplify the underlying themes of the original. Kinda like the Transformers movie. It's going to make its money by making generous use of special effects while ignoring elements and themes that made the original story so engaging. Lobotomized? I think not. ROBOTECH has far more depth and a much greater story arc than Macross. At least Macross Zero is an attempt to add depth to the original, but even then, ROBOTECH is still more complex and involved, IMHO. ROBOTECH is a great example of accidental genius. Shadow Chronicles and the current ROBOTECH "leadership" prove the prior point. ROBOTECH turned out to be really awesome by pure chance. All attempts to continue that magical formula have failed horribly. I am certain this movie will be the case as well. A shame. Edited June 25, 2008 by Skull-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shogun029 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I feel you. That's what Hollywood is all about. But with the right script/screenwriter and the right director, it could be good. I'd rather have them have a try at it than not do one at all. Won't change my life a bit if it sucks. I agree. If it sucks then I'll just go back to watching the original Macross series, the OVAs and continue enjoying Frontier. I must say, though, that I'm interested to see how faithful they will be to the storyline of the anime. I guess nobody goes into making a movie with the intention of trampling over the subject material and embarrassing themselves....do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbeat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Shadow Chronicles and the current ROBOTECH "leadership" prove the prior point. ROBOTECH turned out to be really awesome by pure chance. All attempts to continue that magical formula have failed horribly. I am certain this movie will be the case as well. Well said master. The korean guy with hair thinks he owns the joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Lobotomized? I think not. ROBOTECH has far more depth and a much greater story arc than Macross. At least Macross Zero is an attempt to add depth to the original, but even then, ROBOTECH is still more complex and involved, IMHO. ROBOTECH is a great example of accidental genius. What? How do you figure that? All I see is a dead, stagnant universe. Who cares if they have more robots and like a billion different branches of the military. That's the kind of depth that makes RPG players and fanfic writers happy, not viewers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shogun029 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Lobotomized? I think not. ROBOTECH has far more depth and a much greater story arc than Macross. At least Macross Zero is an attempt to add depth to the original, but even then, ROBOTECH is still more complex and involved, IMHO. ROBOTECH is a great example of accidental genius. Perhaps 'lobotomized' is too harsh a word to use. Granted I wouldn't have known about Macross if wasn't for Robotech. That's why, for me, it will always hold a special place in my childhood memories. However, after having seen the original series and movie, if it wasn't for the shared animation then Robotech could be taken as almost a completely different story. You have to remember that it was edited so as to fit with the (unrelated) stories of Southern Cross and Mospeada. So, yes, it should have a greater story arc because it has to in order to accomodate these other storylines. The depth of Robotech is manufactured solely to involve and connect the three stories together, not out of any ingenuity on the part of Harmony Gold. It's relatively easy to be an accidental genius when most of the work is done for you. I have to believe that it is much easier to cut things out of and add things to a story than it is to write one from scratch. It's also easier to cut scenes from an anime than to draw one up yourself. Edited June 25, 2008 by shogun029 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Someone mentioned a few pages ago that it would compress the robotech tv series into a tiny space and this would never capture the depth of RT. Well tv series move slowly so that's why I suggested that if the movie is a success they could recreate the robotech universe with a new robotech series (coming after the movie) that actually fixes up all the bad things about robotech like the protoculture weed that was being smoked in the mckinney novels, the thinking cap which is lazy control device so they don't have to explina how the robot moves, the pink skin of rick hunter from the Shadow chronicles comics, the songs (get some proffessionals to do this), etc...and do it all properly and call that the robotech canon. (good voice actors for the toon) It would be like a new mospeada so I can buy the alpha and beta cheap alongside transformers toys. The japanese have thier gundam show and don't care about 20 year old stuff anymore. Robotech is your only hope of getting some proper toys. As much as people on this board don't like to admit it, the truth is that: Robotech is coming to the rescue of all the mospeada fans who are angry that they are getting old and are a tiny group of cranky fans who have to pay inflated prices for toys of the mecha from that franchise, because only collector toy companies are bothering to make stuff. I mean think of it this way: being able to buy an alpha fighter from the robotech universe (as opposed to from mopspeada series) wouldn't be much different from buying jetfire (from transformers in the 80s) and pretending it was the VF-1 (from macross). So for me, if I can get a robotech alpha (based on the movies or new cartoon) that doesn't break I'll be happy. I'll just mod it and buy some stickers and say that it's the legioss. I mean if hollywood got away with Lion King, why can't HG do it for macross/mospeada/SC? If robocop and the matrix can take stuff from japan without much hassle why not HG? Honestly? I don't care about the vf-1 that much now, (it's been done to death by so many companies) I just want my mass-produced-but-high-quality legioss which goes about the price of a 20th anniversary prime. HG can then sever ties with macross universe since nobody flies in the old veritechs anymore, and they can just say that the old tv series was an alternate universe. It only really existed in the mind of a protoculture-weed-smoker's imagination and they woke up from the dream and are going to stop taking drugs and now the new robotech is the real world, not the combining of unrelated stories. (they might even be able to say that it was a borg-like world computer that generated the dreams like the thing in Megazone 23 or the matrix) And then.. they can bring this new robotech series to japan rebadged as a new Mospeada and then all the japanese collectors can buy the legios and tread. (they can relabel the toys from robotech to mospeada ones) Everyone will get what they want: -mospeada fans can have a new anime series based on footage from Nu-robotech -macross fans can stop worrying about robotech universe being too related to SDF:Macross universe in the designs -the toys (haven't you wanted a cheap ride armor?) -the existing RT fans get their live action movie which will tie everything together properly. -you can throw out the 50 million different versions of the robotech dvds that they made. Edited June 25, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) In a word YES!! I only saw it a few weeks ago and all I though was Macross plus without Battroids and a few plot changes. Mind you BSG the new series is kinda Macross more so in some ways than the original, which did give ideas for Macross in the first place. yeah, the new BSG fleet may have gotten some ideas from macross (the cloud 9 ship looks particularly macrossy), and macross may have gotten some ideas from the original BSG. if that's the case, all's fair since they're feeding off each other. Edited June 25, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 in that case... Some things I think we can count on in the Robtech LAM.... hair color will be more or less normal, not blue or green (at least for humans). yes, but for tobey maguire (rick hunter) it will be the emo-hair version. and don't forget the dance. Max will not wear glasses. so he will be played by Shia Labeouf There will be no knife fight between Max and Miriya, to avoid promoting violence against women. instead it will be an almost violent, aggressive love scene. much like xenia onatopp vs. james bond. Roy will become Rick's actual genetic brother. rick will be played by (sorry, producer's choice)Tobey Maguire and roy will be played by a CGI-aged Tobey Maguire Claudia will become either white, or very light skinned (think Alicia Keys) to avoid ticking off bigotted parents. to be played by halle berry Ben Dixon will be the gratuitous "Black Guy who Dies Heroicly/Early" to be played by anthony anderson, the hacker from the transformers movie. Gloval will become British. to be played by Ian McKellen. yes, him again. Minmei and Misa will be roughly the same age. No loli's or cougars. to be played by Kristin Kreuk and Lindsay Lohan, respectively. The Zentraedi will be a LOT closer to micronian size. Think 'Battlefield Earth" and do i even have to say it? john travolta as bodolza. but his bio implants will all come from his nose. The flight suits and helmets will be much more like real modern ones. "what did you expect? yellow spandex?" The mecha will suck. they will get the props from Robot Jox The flight scenes will suck. and while they fight slo-mo, close-up on a girl bystander screaming... um...what? michael bay's not directing this one? Oh, it's Uwe Boll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeudi Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) There will be no knife fight between Max and Miriya, to avoid promoting violence against women. instead it will be an almost violent, aggressive love scene. much like xenia onatopp vs. james bond. I was thinking Buffy & Spike 's first time... but yours works too. EDIT: just had a thought... Kyron will probably be Miriya's jilted ex-lover. Edited June 26, 2008 by daeudi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull-1 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 What? How do you figure that? All I see is a dead, stagnant universe. Who cares if they have more robots and like a billion different branches of the military. That's the kind of depth that makes RPG players and fanfic writers happy, not viewers. It is a stagnant universe because the people entrusted with its care are idiots. Believe me, if I were running HG it would not be stagnant for a lack of effort (based in good sense). The people who run HG suck. They've sucked for decades. That's not new. But as stated by other posters, the very story changes required to connect three unrelated series made RT an incredibly deep, complex, and involved story. The problem is the people who run it now don't realize what they have. They squandered RT's popularity long ago. This movie is probably going to suck. If it doesn't I'd be *SHOCKED*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 I mean if hollywood got away with Lion King, why can't HG do it for macross/mospeada/SC? If robocop and the matrix can take stuff from japan without much hassle why not HG? Honestly? I don't care about the vf-1 that much now, (it's been done to death by so many companies) I just want my mass-produced-but-high-quality legioss which goes about the price of a 20th anniversary prime. HG can then sever ties with macross universe since nobody flies in the old veritechs anymore, and they can just say that the old tv series was an alternate universe. It only really existed in the mind of a protoculture-weed-smoker's imagination and they woke up from the dream and are going to stop taking drugs and now the new robotech is the real world, not the combining of unrelated stories. (they might even be able to say that it was a borg-like world computer that generated the dreams like the thing in Megazone 23 or the matrix) -macross fans can stop worrying about robotech universe being too related to SDF:Macross universe in the designs as i said, if they do stay away from the macross story of RT, then there's really nothing to worry about. have fun with the alphas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) But as stated by other posters, the very story changes required to connect three unrelated series made RT an incredibly deep, complex, and involved story. The problem is the people who run it now don't realize what they have. They squandered RT's popularity long ago. other posters? reading back, seems like it was all you that posted that line. and this is the third. boy, when you raise an argument, you really keep at it, don't you? Edited June 26, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) But as stated by other posters, the very story changes required to connect three unrelated series made RT an incredibly deep, complex, and involved story. The problem is the people who run it now don't realize what they have. They squandered RT's popularity long ago. This movie is probably going to suck. If it doesn't I'd be *SHOCKED*. The story is the protoculture factory on the *SDF-1 is the magic battery for aliens that runs all the mecha in the RT universe and the aliens want it because they are dying and running low on oil...er magic battery juice, extracted from leaves or something. Humans end up banging one of the alien females, realising it's better to find a way to end war then try to win one, and then good guy humans team up with good guy aliens to stop the war from escalating further which will only end up with both sides killing each other as the weapons get more and more powerful and rape the planet of natural life. Same thing happens in the gundam universes. War is bad, war is bad... Isn't that what all mecha shows end up being? *Zor is the creator of the ship and as the aliens' genius scientist, only he understand how it all works but he has morals and doesn't want to be forced to help build the nukes er....I mean weapons that end up destroying whole civilisations, so he plots against them and the SDF-1 (not called that by aliens) gets sent to earth. (I think that is the story, I haven't watched RT for a very long time!) The mind-controlled clone of Zor (we'll call him Zor Clone) that you see in Southern Cross retain some of the memories of him being used by the Robotech Masters in the past, and Zor Clone goes crazy (after the mind control wears off) and tries to get revenge on them as a clone. (as seen in the end of southern cross) Doing this causes an accident which awakens the invid to the alien WEED known as protoculture flowers of life, and this ends up causing even more problems as the alien insects can now smell it like bees collecting nectar from flowers. The giant bees can sniff it and this becomes like a radar blip every time a person turns on a machine using protoculture fuel. EDIT: I do agree robotech is a good and epic story, but if the right people are involved in this they can make it really good. Hopefully they don't just rush it, just to cash in on the interest in robot shows brought to live action, and instead treat it right. Treat it with the same seriousness of a BSG. But RT is not "macross only". Remember that. You can make a trilogy and cram in the stories of the tv series in "3 hours per movie" blocks like they did with lord of the rings! What robotech really is, is a story of aliens having an energy crisis (like oil running out? ) and coming to us to take the sole thing that produces the power necessary for them to keep killing and destroying things. And humans are the ones that were lucky to have it sent to earth by this Zor character in the hopes we could Bang a female alien, fall in love with it, and convince them to stop the killing because loving things is happier than fighting. That does not mean humans themselves aren't still hypocrites for fighting each other in the past, (global wars before the alien ship crashed to earth for example) just that perhaps Zor the genuis wanted the weakest and dumbest race (humans) to have it (like how the hobbits are the weakest and dumbest middle-earth race in LOTR) and maybe this would provide the right balance of power in the grand scheme of things since it will help complicate the evil, powerful alien races' plans for a little longer by hiding it in a spot which is very remote (in the case of robotech it was earth) away from the bad guys? Sorta like Frodo chucking the gold ring into the Crack of Doom in Lord of The Rings so the War of the Ring could end and people were reset to their default crappy powers again. (not necessarily solving the problem of war forever, but at least allowing all the power to NOT fall into the hands of one person which means slavery to all races both human and alien under the control of that one power. The ONE ring is the symbol of evil intent by the spirits that seek to control everything singlehandedly.) Zor is like the elves who don't want to have to suffer by keeping this power in existence only to have warring factions competing for control over it which only causes environmental destruction. The elves are the tree-hugging hippies of today who don't like the idea of pollution, or the threat of nukes destroying the environment. They were pissed that humans couldn't resist the urge to throw the ring away in the first place thousands of years ago and now have to deal with the problem again. Zor = the same thing, but the (powermad) alien races controlling him could be interchanged with the power-mad humans in LOTR who didn't want to throw the ring away in previous generations because they still crave the power it can provide them. I think Hugo Weaving would be a good Zor. Just think of robotech trilogy being like a LOTR trilogy but with space, aliens, and robots instead of strange lands, variety of ancient extinct earth races, and knights in armour. Edited June 26, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 But as stated by other posters, the very story changes required to connect three unrelated series made RT an incredibly deep, complex, and involved story. Yeah right. Some Machiavellian comic book crap isn't what I call deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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