The Watchmen

[Gubaba]

I just finished reading the graphic novel. I'm probably going to get a lot of hate from those in the know but... Is the reader supposed to assume that the big secret is revealed to the world anyway from Rorschach's journal? Especially with doc Manhattan saying "it never ends". I understand the last lines, that maybe the authors leave it in the reader's hands as to what happens next. It just seems to me the scale is tipping more to one side than on the other.

I think it's pretty clear that Rorschach's journal gets published and ruins everything. Among other signs, look at the dark, dark clouds on the horizon on the second-to-last page of the last chapter. That's a mean storm coming in...and I think it's likely symbolic (as is nearly everything in Watchmen).

Also in the movie (if released) do you think an audience would be okay with the movie ending just like the book? Where you're not sure if anybody won.

Who cares?

Also, the whole pirate comic, I can see it sort of paralleling the watchmen universe somewhat but I found it a bit annoying. Is there some special significance to the pirate comic that I missed? It just got in the way of what I was interested in the story. I'm sure the pirate comic probably won't be in the movie or if it is, just a brief appearances.

Well, the pirate comic is a parallel to to the story of Adrian Veidt. Just as the "hero" of the comic kills and kills again in order to save his home, only to destroy everything he cared about, and damned his own soul...well, the connections to Veidt should be obvious, and there's another clue as to how the whole thing turns out.

... because he can see the future, Osterman probably knew this, hence his declaration to Veidt.

But bear in mind that Osterman can see HIS OWN future, not the general future. If he's not even in the same universe as the Watchmen world when the sh*t hits the fan, then I don't think he could see it.

The important thing, I think, about the "nothing ever ends" line is that he vanishes in the next panel, leaving a plume of smoke in Veidt's orrery that looks like a mushroom cloud.

Again, I think it's pretty clear what's going to happen next...

[Gui]

[...]

Well, the pirate comic is a parallel to to the story of Adrian Veidt. Just as the "hero" of the comic kills and kills again in order to save his home, only to destroy everything he cared about, and damned his own soul...well, the connections to Veidt should be obvious, and there's another clue as to how the whole thing turns out.

That is a clever interpretation: I never looked at it this way but now that you tell me this, it is indeed rather obvious...

But bear in mind that Osterman can see HIS OWN future, not the general future. If he's not even in the same universe as the Watchmen world when the sh*t hits the fan, then I don't think he could see it.

The important thing, I think, about the "nothing ever ends" line is that he vanishes in the next panel, leaving a plume of smoke in Veidt's orrery that looks like a mushroom cloud.

Again, I think it's pretty clear what's going to happen next...

I don't recall Osterman couldn't see a future he's not involved in, but maybe...

As for the mushroom cloud, it's more or less the 'trademark' of Dr. Manhattan so I'm not sure it's as clear as you say it is, but again, maybe... On the other hand, if Osterman can see only his own future, how can he be sure that the history of mankind will end this way? In any case, such 'obscure' ending just proves Osterman's point: nothing ever ends, and you can still find your own conclusion in continuing the story by yourself

[electric indigo]

I think it's pretty clear that Rorschach's journal gets published and ruins everything.

I was under the impression the "New Frontiersman" wasn't exactly the newspaper with the best reputation. More like these websites that tell you what "really" happened at 9/11.

[Gubaba]

That is a clever interpretation: I never looked at it this way but now that you tell me this, it is indeed rather obvious...

I don't recall Osterman couldn't see a future he's not involved in, but maybe...

Well...he's unstuck in time, but he was still himself. I don't think he could visit a time and place where he's not present anymore than you could walk to someplace, but not be there (does that make sense? You can't exist in any place you're not, and neither could Osterman...now if he came back a visited later, then he could see what happened...)

As for the mushroom cloud, it's more or less the 'trademark' of Dr. Manhattan so I'm not sure it's as clear as you say it is, but again, maybe... On the other hand, if Osterman can see only his own future, how can he be sure that the history of mankind will end this way? In any case, such 'obscure' ending just proves Osterman's point: nothing ever ends, and you can still find your own conclusion in continuing the story by yourself

Oh, I don't think the cloud was Jon's "comment" on Veidt's plan, I think it was a coincidental shape...and an ominous one, just like so many other coincidental shapes in Watchmen.

I was under the impression the "New Frontiersman" wasn't exactly the newspaper with the best reputation. More like these websites that tell you what "really" happened at 9/11.

Hmmmm....good point.

[Gui]

Well...he's unstuck in time, but he was still himself. I don't think he could visit a time and place where he's not present anymore than you could walk to someplace, but not be there (does that make sense? You can't exist in any place you're not, and neither could Osterman...now if he came back a visited later, then he could see what happened...)

[...]

Frankly, with this guy a lot of things don't make sense anyway But, personnally, I always considered his power as being able to see the future all short, whatever place he's or he'll be in...

Another deep mystery of the Watchmen

[marx]

I have to agree that it seems like it is all going to be ruined. But one can make a strong point against that. Veidt makes a good point by saying that Rorschach is not a reliable witness nor someone without a stain. Also as someone already pointed out, the New Frontiersman being somewhat unreliable itself...

Yeah the pirate comic is kind of connected to Veidt. I guess I overlooked that. Especially when he says "Well I dream about swimming towards a hideous.. no, never mind it isn't significant..."

[the white drew carey]

I have to agree that it seems like it is all going to be ruined. But one can make a strong point against that. Veidt makes a good point by saying that Rorschach is not a reliable witness nor someone without a stain. Also as someone already pointed out, the New Frontiersman being somewhat unreliable itself...

Yeah the pirate comic is kind of connected to Veidt. I guess I overlooked that. Especially when he says "Well I dream about swimming towards a hideous.. no, never mind it isn't significant..."

Well, see, this is the best part about Moore's work: as someone (forget who) mentioned earlier in the thread, he left a lot to the reader's imagination. Most of the recent discussion is not speculation, but what us, as reader's see as a possible epilogue in our own imaginations.

Edited January 6, 2009 by the white drew carey

[Gui]

Concerning Rorschach, well it's a particular character because he's always 'right', at least in some sort of indirect way: for example, when he says to the paper seller, at the kiosk, that the end of the world will happen on the next day, just before asking to the seller to reserve him his paper for the same day, this looks contradictory but the next day in question Dr. Manhattan leaves Earth in placing the entire world on the border of the nuclear apocalypse, which is some sort of end of the world, or at least the end of one world (the one where the balance of powers assures the survival of Mankind...); a similar thing happens when he tries to warn all his old buddies that a mask killer is in town and that everyone should be ready for something huge: it is indeed something huge even if it's not what he thought

For these reasons, I think his 'message' to the world will probably be heard, simply because he's this kind of people to whom extraordinary things always happen

[Mr March]

For once, it appears some informative details about the Watchmen controversy have surfaced.

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-6-moti...chmen-producers

[RedWolf]

For all this posturing there would be definitely a settlement.

Basically the idea is Gordon tried to sell the movie idea to both Fox and Warner.

In Fox's case they said Ok we'll "Think" about it getting into contract on distribution. Frankly thought the script crap. So no go.

Warner Bros thus Time Warner got sold to the movie idea but did not properly settle scruples with Fox concerning their contract with Gordon.

Here's the clincher why Time Warner was ignoring Fox. They own DC which in turns own Watchmen which in turn has a dispute also with Watchmen creator Alan Moore on some royalty issues.

Time Warner owns Watchmen but Fox is disputing distribution rights.

Alan Moore himself doesn't like Fox despite some misleading statements that they also went thru the creator. Not after LXG fiasco.

[azrael]

Looks like we may have an answer or something next week.

L.A. Dispatch: Settlement Likely in “Watchmen” Dispute (New York Times)

[azrael]

WB, Fox make deal for 'Watchmen', Warner to open superhero film March 6 (Variety)

A joint statement is expected to be released sometime Friday.

[taksraven]

WB, Fox make deal for 'Watchmen', Warner to open superhero film March 6 (Variety)

A joint statement is expected to be released sometime Friday.

If the situation is resolved that "easily", both sides have done a good job.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

WB, Fox make deal for 'Watchmen', Warner to open superhero film March 6 (Variety)

A joint statement is expected to be released sometime Friday.

Hmmm...it seems that Alan Moore's curse on the film lacked some teeth, eh what?

[taksraven]

Hmmm...it seems that Alan Moore's curse on the film lacked some teeth, eh what?

Don't count the curse out too early. The film could still be a box-office stuff up.

Taksraven

[Mr March]

WB, Fox make deal for 'Watchmen', Warner to open superhero film March 6 (Variety)

A joint statement is expected to be released sometime Friday.

Good news. Now, is the movie actually any good?

[Loner]

[kanedaestes]

Very cool and very well done. They truly captured that classic news reel look. I am even more excited now by this movie.

[the white drew carey]

Very cool and very well done. They truly captured that classic news reel look. I am even more excited now by this movie.

Hey, that's pretty cool.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

It's part of this site they've set up. http://www.thenewfrontiersman.net/

Good to hear it's being released as planned.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[taksraven]

Details finalised for the soundtrack for this film......

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news09/090123f.php

Taksraven

[Smiley424]

very nice, I'm very excited to see this movie now

[Gubaba]

Details finalised for the soundtrack for this film......

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news09/090123f.php

Taksraven

What'd I tell ya way back? Dylan, Hendrix, Nat King Cole, Billie Holiday...all that's missing is Elvis Costello and Iggy Pop.

Unfortunately, I already have almost everything on that soundtrack, so I'll probably give the soundtrack a pass, same as the movie.

And I love this part of the article:

Watchmen is directed by Zack Snyder from a screenplay by David Hayter and Alex Tse, based on the graphic novel co-created by Dave Gibbons, published by DC Comics.

So...what, they aren't even going to MENTION Alan Moore? Weird.

[taksraven]

So...what, they aren't even going to MENTION Alan Moore? Weird.

Who??

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Now for the action figures.....

http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Movie-Rorsc...2506&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Movie-Manha...pd_bxgy_t_img_b

Taksraven

[ly000001]

So...what, they aren't even going to MENTION Alan Moore? Weird.

When Alan Moore didn't want anything to do with the "V for Vendetta" movie, but some press material was released that included his name in it, he raised a big stink about it with Warner Bros. or whoever he originally dealt with regarding his movie royalties, credits, etc. He probably doesn't want his name to be used here either.

[electric indigo]

First pics from the Black Freighter sidestory are out:

http://www.joblo.com/index.php?id=24962

[the white drew carey]

First pics from the Black Freighter sidestory are out:

http://www.joblo.com/index.php?id=24962

Looks pretty dope.

Thought I'll wait for the Director's Cut that has it integrated into the Theatrical Version.

[Gubaba]

When Alan Moore didn't want anything to do with the "V for Vendetta" movie, but some press material was released that included his name in it, he raised a big stink about it with Warner Bros. or whoever he originally dealt with regarding his movie royalties, credits, etc. He probably doesn't want his name to be used here either.

It wasn't that they used his name, it's that the producer said something like, "I've talked to him about the movie, and he's thrilled!" Which was a complete lie, of course.

[taksraven]

And here come the reviews.........

http://www.darkhorizons.com/reviews/888/Watchmen/

Much as I suspected, praising but also suggesting limited broader commercial appeal. "Intelligent" and "layered" films always cop this sort of thing.

Taksraven

[wolfx]

But its being marketed as a blockbuster superhero movie anyway so ppl are still gonna watch it regardless.

[taksraven]

But its being marketed as a blockbuster superhero movie anyway so ppl are still gonna watch it regardless.

Here in the land of Aus, it is not being very extensively marketed. Just a few pics on buses and a few ads on TV. (I haven't been getting out much the last few weeks so I might be a bit isolated from it all.....)

Taksraven

[Penguin]

Well, I was at the sneak preview last night. Very well-made movie, very faithful; I love the graphic novel, so seeing live action was great fun. I gotta say, though, taking it just as a movie, I think being so faithful hurts it since the pacing just isn't well suited to a 2 1/2 hour movie.

When you read the graphic novel, the final chapter brings all the threads together and you get an internal "wow" moment. There are revelations, tense moments, and all in all it's a great story. I found the movie unfolds more like someone checking off a list of the scenes they had to get in, without any thought to building expectation, tension, or climax.

There are little bits dropped out here and there, of course, but nothing that hurts the plot though. The characters suffer a little.

With movies being such a visual medium, the character that was for me the least complex in the graphic novel, Rorschach (guy witnesses something horrible and becomes bad ass... haven't read that a thousand times before

), becomes the most vibrant character in the movie since he actually does stuff. Characters like Dan and Laurie who really have more interesting personalities and grow more in the story become less impressive because it's the written side of comics that lets you explore that.

Much as I'd hate to make Alan Moore any more smug, I kinda agree with him when he said that he felt "Watchman" wasn't suited to film since it was created to specifically showcase the strengths and differences in the comic medium compared to purely written or visual media.

[Ghadrack]

I can't wait to see the 'Stupid people" reaction coming out of the theatre with their gap toothed kids. Where was Spaaaaperman diddy? WTH was that, them wasn't sooper heroes!

I expect the buffudled reaction of the people who have no idea what they are about to see will be will be as satisfying as the movie.

[wolfx]

Been 10 years or more since i read the comic book so i don't remember the finer details, but overall, the movie was awesome! Despite what Penguin mentioned about the pacing, I felt it was not as bad as people put it and I actually enjoyed the movie....but maybe its because I have read the graphic novel so I wasn't too disturbed by it. Some dude in my cinema snored during Dan and Laurie's couch scene.

I loved Rosarch in the comic....I loved him even more in the movie. They really did justice to his character. I've always felt that he was the hero that everyone feels the most attachment to. As a person, he was the least "screwed up" next to Doc Manhattan.

4.5 stars out of 5. Very nice watch.