New Robotech Shadow Chronicles Vid

[do not disturb]

i finally saw it the other day and i rather enjoyed it. i didn't care much for the cgi(kind of cheesed it out) but i kept my expectations low so it wasn't the ultimate suck. anyway, i'm looking forward to the next episode...errr movie.

[big F]

Oh man, it must have been a LONG time since you've watched the originals. I sat down with them not too long ago and was actually quite surprised at just how bad the animation is at times. Shadow Chronicles doesn't have good animation but it's consistent and the characters/mechs never get randomly deformed, change colors, or skip 10-50 frames for abrupt uber choppiness.

I agree having rewatched them all recently I realised how bad they were at times, some of this was down to the original source material but mostly due to bad scissor work in the V.T room at HG

[Black Valkyrie]

Wow! A ROBOTECH thread becoming a Soliel Moonfrye pic thread! Mind you I'm not complaining; Punky is HOT!!!!!!

Yeah let it change to Soleil Moon Frye thread . Man time flys, I used to this show back in the 80`s .

[lord_breetai]

I thought Tatsunoko (sp) was fighting HG, or was that just Big West? Why is their name on this fetid POS?

Also, whatever happened to good, old school animation? Why in the HELL do all these companies insist on this CG crap? Mainframe had it down, but this stuff (yeah, including Mac 0) is lazy and stupid looking. It just looks horrible.

WTH are you talking about... Harmony Gold's problems are strictly with Big West and not at all with tatsunoko with whom they've been partners in the Robotech thing since the beggining. Anyway they also give credit to Yoshitaka Ammano for doing the "original" character designs, meaning his design work for MOSPEADA but I highly doubt he had any involvement in the movie.

[blockquote]I agree having rewatched them all recently I realised how bad they were at times, some of this was down to the original source material but mostly due to bad scissor work in the V.T room at HG[/blockquote]

Uhh even when Watching the OSM it's like that and I can bring up about a thousand animation mistakes in Macross alone, if you want. I'm not saying anything against it but Shadow Chron has way higher consistent animation then Macross.

Edited February 21, 2007 by lord_breetai

[jenius]

Uhh even when Watching the OSM it's like that and I can bring up about a thousand animation mistakes in Macross alone, if you want. I'm not saying anything against it but Shadow Chron has way higher consistent animation then Macross.

I was thinkin' the same thing... my original quote refers to the OSMs, not Robotech. The OSMs are riddled with horrible moments of ridiculously bad animation. I can't really think right now of how Robotech could have made the animation of the originals worse although yeah, in episodes like Dana's Story I could definitely see where people would question the edit choices.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I saw it at katsucon, it was free so I figured I mineswell.

Anyways there was a lot of useless dialogue and weak attempts to be funny. To predictable. A main character who when enraged still misses most of the time. A predictable plot of main character's friend sacrificing himself.

Maya Sterling being all uptight and eventually warming up to the main guy(was it Alex?), yea it was obvious that was going to happen.

CG choreography was way too generic and nothing really new. Basically if you've seen early CG from the mid 90's it was all like that, very predictable. Nothing spectacular.

I did like how the story is breaking away from macross and going in its own direction. Seeing the Shadows/Betas combined looked cool. No wonder all of you want the BETA fighter.

Me and my friend got more of a kick out of it by laughing at how bad this was throughout the whole movie. The main enemies sounded a lot like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget. If anything the movie was comedy relief because it was so bad.

If they make a sequel I hope its a lot better. This was definitely misleading and for those who liked the robotech characters theres not a whole lot of resolution, some are briefly seen or mentioned but you don't really see most of them except for Scott and Marlene.

[Ishimaru]

I really dont understand why pll say the graphic isnt good. Even if it was the case, the story is good, the characters are good, and personaly, i love the graphics too.

Right behind this guy.

If it was Macross (Setting a example), I bet none of you guys would give out the bad criticisim. Just because it's Robotech; Don't say this is bull but I hear enough criticism about the anime on a daily basis on MW, and you guys know it to think you have a right slap it around when HG releases something new. You guys are criticizing Robotech and your criticizing it now. All because of it's name and the fact that it used the Macross series. I don't wan't to set any arguments but you guys need to give second thoughts before you make a post.

I'm not supporting the claim, but jeesz don't go with the crowd if you just wan't to fit in to oppose your own truthful opinions to be like everybody else, and that is not cool..

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Right behind this guy.

If it was Macross (Setting a example), I bet none of you guys would give out the bad criticisim. Just because it's Robotech; Don't say this is bull but I hear enough criticism about the anime on a daily basis on MW, and you guys know it to think you have a right slap it around when HG releases something new. You guys are criticizing Robotech and your criticizing it now. All because of it's name and the fact that it used the Macross series. I don't wan't to set any arguments but you guys need to give second thoughts before you make a post.

I'm not supporting the claim, but jeesz don't go with the crowd if you just wan't to fit in to oppose your own truthful opinions to be like everybody else, and that is not cool..

If it was Macross I would be extremely dissapointed. Bad animated movies are bad no matter what name or series they belong to.

[jenius]

It's not anti-Robotech bashing, I'm actually surprised how civil this thread has been. The members of this site bash Macross7 and Macross0 plenty as well. We also bash excellent toys consistently and complain about everything from cars to movies we've only seen two pictures of pre-production art-work from. It's the nature of the Internet...

[Ishimaru]

It's not anti-Robotech bashing, I'm actually surprised how civil this thread has been. The members of this site bash Macross7 and Macross0 plenty as well. We also bash excellent toys consistently and complain about everything from cars to movies we've only seen two pictures of pre-production art-work from. It's the nature of the Internet...

Can't disagree with that. But....*sigh*

[Chewie]

I wasn't sure about the Tatsunoku thing. Got names mixed up, that's all.

As for Mac 0, it was great, I loved the regular animation, story, the battles, everything, but the CG really did ruin it for me.

I don't like how companies are moving over to this as a staple of mainstream animation. Transformers is one of the worst, there are several other shows out there who use it and even the new Iron Man movie was done with it. It's all little variations of the same technology and I think it's lazy. They draw something once, input it into a computer, animate it and they have it forever to use over and over and it looks like trash. This Robotech movie is just one more shining example of that.

[penachoy]

I wasn't sure about the Tatsunoku thing. Got names mixed up, that's all.

As for Mac 0, it was great, I loved the regular animation, story, the battles, everything, but the CG really did ruin it for me.

I don't like how companies are moving over to this as a staple of mainstream animation. Transformers is one of the worst, there are several other shows out there who use it and even the new Iron Man movie was done with it. It's all little variations of the same technology and I think it's lazy. They draw something once, input it into a computer, animate it and they have it forever to use over and over and it looks like trash. This Robotech movie is just one more shining example of that.

I hear ya brotha! I miss the good old days pure hand drawn barely any computer CGs added to it. The polish anime look kills me! ...I guess its all about production cost..companies saving money.

[Keith]

I was thinkin' the same thing... my original quote refers to the OSMs, not Robotech. The OSMs are riddled with horrible moments of ridiculously bad animation. I can't really think right now of how Robotech could have made the animation of the originals worse although yeah, in episodes like Dana's Story I could definitely see where people would question the edit choices.

Robotech made the animation worse by really half assed work in the re-editing process, washing out the colors, throwing off the brightness, and bringing the overall quality down a generation. And while the actual animatoin quality (i.e. quality of the designs) isn't terribly consistent, a top episode of Macross (27 for example) is still superior to the animation on shadow chronicles.

[justvinnie]

I really dont understand why pll say the graphic isnt good. Even if it was the case, the story is good, the characters are good, and personaly, i love the graphics too.

You're absolutely right. The graphics isn't good. It's downright hideous. The fact that the CG renders are not even as good as the amateur renders done by many MW members (go check them out for yourself) speaks to the amount of effort they put into the movie.

Story? Funny, I thought stories have a plot. That would include some premise, a climax, and a denouement. What was the premise again? The Haydonites are the children of the shadow and they are out to get everybody I guess would be the premise. The climax I guess would be the blowing up of the space station. But wait how does the two resolve each other? They don't. in fact they really have nothing to do with each other because at the end of the movies, the Haydonites are still out there and they are still out to get everybody. That's right, there's no denouement.

Generic character designs with overly muscular men, and gargantuan breast women. And then they go and cheat by only animating their mouths to simulate speech and save on cost.

M0 had a crappy story. SC has no story.

I don't know what's worse?

M0 had characters that look and move naturally. SC had automatrons.

M0 wins.

M0 had innovative mechanical designs. SC had rehashes of 20+ year old designs.

M0 wins.

M0 had awesome battle sequences. SC has bland battle sequences but more of them proportionately.

M0 wins because I'll take quality over quantity any day.

The bottom line, both are bad, but compared to SC M0 is golden. If all you want to see is old beloved mechanical designs in action again and lots of action, but no story, SC is for you. Not necessarily unenjoyable for what it is, but lackluster for what it strives to be.

vinnie

[lord_breetai]

First off Keith, I agree that when Macross was good, it was very good, I would say on sheer fluidity of motion though Shadow Chron beats any TV show ep... and fluidity of motion is actually was defines animation not design work, though I'd take Mikimotos designs over Tommy's any day. And deffinitly Ai Oboeteimasuka is superiror to Shadow Chron on every technical level, and several artistic levels.

You're absolutely right. The graphics isn't good. It's downright hideous. The fact that the CG renders are not even as good as the amateur renders done by many MW members (go check them out for yourself) speaks to the amount of effort they put into the movie.

Story? Funny, I thought stories have a plot. That would include some premise, a climax, and a denouement. What was the premise again? The Haydonites are the children of the shadow and they are out to get everybody I guess would be the premise. The climax I guess would be the blowing up of the space station. But wait how does the two resolve each other? They don't. in fact they really have nothing to do with each other because at the end of the movies, the Haydonites are still out there and they are still out to get everybody. That's right, there's no denouement.

Generic character designs with overly muscular men, and gargantuan breast women. And then they go and cheat by only animating their mouths to simulate speech and save on cost.

M0 had a crappy story. SC has no story.

I don't know what's worse?

M0 had characters that look and move naturally. SC had automatrons.

M0 wins.

M0 had innovative mechanical designs. SC had rehashes of 20+ year old designs.

M0 wins.

M0 had awesome battle sequences. SC has bland battle sequences but more of them proportionately.

M0 wins because I'll take quality over quantity any day.

The bottom line, both are bad, but compared to SC M0 is golden. If all you want to see is old beloved mechanical designs in action again and lots of action, but no story, SC is for you. Not necessarily unenjoyable for what it is, but lackluster for what it strives to be.

vinnie

First off you taking SC as a stand alone movie, which it is not. It's purpose is to generate interest in a continuation and to try to create sponsers. Harmony Gold had many deals for TV shows but it didn't give Tommy, Tom and Steve the freedom they wanted. So they created this pilot to get offers based on an existing product. It's the same as the new Battlestar Galactica, when they came out with their miniseries before the actual Television series.

Where was the denouncement in the BG miniseries? At the end of the movie they were still being chased by the Cylons, they were left aimlessly wandering space in search of a mythical place they didn't believe exists. Really they were in worse shape at the end of the series then they had been at any other point... it left all these plot threads hanging on purpose... to be continued in a series. SC is the exact same way.

Or same with the original Star Wars movie... Yeah they blew up the Death Star but that didn't free the galaxy from the Empire, and Darth Vader was still alive, we knew that. That's no different then taking out a fleet of Haydonites... and we didn't even know that it was Episode IV when it was first released but the fans were happy with it not even knowing there would be a sequal.

M0's battle scenes were better then SC? you're joking right? They were overly flashy and just boring... I didn't feel like there was anything to get excited about... especially cause we knew Roy had to survive all his fights there wasn't ever any tension. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed M0 until the very end of the last episode when it got all mystical...

Both SC and M0 just provide new mecha designs based on the old ones, I don't see the difference between the Super Shadow fighters from the end of the movies, being original designs based off the Alphas with some minor changes like the cannons (which admitidly would have been cooler if they didn't jetison them after 2 minutes of fighting), and the VF-0 or those Anti-UN Protodevelin look-alike mecha, they're both rehashes of old designs with just slight tweaks to them.

and in both cases that makes sense... would it make sense for a series thats starts before the end of the last one to have completely different mecha designs? No, where woudl they get the techonology from? Oh and don't the Haydonite Mecha designs count as new?

Don't try and make TSC into something it's not, a stand alone story, and try to be a little more fare. Ditching the Alphas would not make sense in the slightest. We didn't want to see the haydonites wiped out we want to find out what they're really after what makes them more then just generic bad guys.

I gave up on Robotech a long time ago... but this movie has shown me there is hope for the franchise.

[bsu legato]

Or same with the original Star Wars movie...

Nothing of the sort. The original Star Wars movie worked 100% as a stand alone movie, something that SC apaprently fails miserably at. And this "Shadow Chronicles as a pilot" bullshit is a weak excuse too. Pilots are created and shopped around to networks, not sold at Best Buy for $25 each. But hey, I suppose it works the same way as the mythical Toynami Beta fighter. If buy enough of them (MPC Alphas or copies of SC), and wish really really hard, maybe...just maybe....HG will give you what you want.

[jenius]

I'd take M0 over Shadow Chronicles but I don't think that's saying much. M0 has the worse story of the two I'd say. Shadow Chronicles never painted itself into such a corner that the heroes had to fly away on levitating rocks. I find M0 absolutely beautiful in contrast to SC though and I think it was fun because of that more than anything. Had the art work of SC been as beautiful as M0 there's no doubt I'd pick SC over it. As it is, I think both are fun but wouldn't really rave about either. The whole plot argument above is weak. Empire Strikes Back must really be hated by some people around here but I love it.

While I agree that the pilot stuff is an odd business decision, it's the decision that was made. It's unfortunate that they weren't able to ensure a sequel before releasing this DVD so they were unable to advertise it as the first DVD in a series. Instead it is advertised as some sort of complete product... and that, it obviously, is not.

But hey, I suppose it works the same way as the mythical Toynami Beta fighter. If buy enough of them (MPC Alphas or copies of SC), and wish really really hard, maybe...just maybe....HG will give you what you want.

I'm totally voting communist in the next election, this free market BS has got to stop. Nah, just kidding, I agree to some extent. I think DND summed it up perfectly in another thread about Toynami, "I'm through with Toynami, they keep jerking me off and never make me cum." Now that's a great analogy.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Macross 0 had way better choreagraphy. SC had very very predictable action sequences. Oh wow yea like we didn't really see the main character and Alex' Shadow/Beta rolling in unison to fire missles and attack. Not to mention the transformations, they weren't intense or anything mind blowing. Compare the transformations in SC to the first transformation Roy does in the first episode of Macross zero. Which one is better? I didn't mind the fact that the alphas had minimal rendering and alll that, what bothered me is how they were animated. I did want this to be awesome, I wanted to be surprised, I wanted to see what happened to Rick Hunter. But no. All we got was a few glimpses of him, a predictable plot of his ass getting PWNED somehow and of course a botched rescue mission as a catalyst for revenge by his friends to destroy Dr. Claw, or the Haydonites. "Oh wait yea you go with an alien and they killed my sister and now i hate you scott bla bla."

Who didn't see that one coming? The whole thing was very cliche. They had the ingredients for potentially a great continuation and story but its ruined by cliche/useless dialogue, boring CG animation, and so many useless jokes and a very predictable transparent plot. This was not the robotech that we were waiting for like they keep advertising.

The alphas looked okay, but the action sequences were very stale. And even if this is a pilot it has no excuse for being bad. I mean come on they are selling this like a sequel to a great series. If they made this one suck so that part 2 could make up for it, then this one is a waste of money and they are ripping off their fans. Come on there is no logic in making this one bad so that we can buy a sequel that makes up for the badness in this. A good start to a series is Casino Royale. Does this one come off like being a great movie that we want to see whats in part 2? No.

Well the SC black skull squadron MPC looks cool. And a beta is enticing. I did not mind the character designs, but the CG animation needed a LOT of work.

Overall it was overhyped and very dissapointing.

[Chewie]

Nothing of the sort. The original Star Wars movie worked 100% as a stand alone movie, something that SC apaprently fails miserably at. And this "Shadow Chronicles as a pilot" bullshit is a weak excuse too. Pilots are created and shopped around to networks, not sold at Best Buy for $25 each. But hey, I suppose it works the same way as the mythical Toynami Beta fighter. If buy enough of them (MPC Alphas or copies of SC), and wish really really hard, maybe...just maybe....HG will give you what you want.

How do you really feel about it?

[lord_breetai]

Nothing of the sort. The original Star Wars movie worked 100% as a stand alone movie, something that SC apaprently fails miserably at. And this "Shadow Chronicles as a pilot" bullshit is a weak excuse too. Pilots are created and shopped around to networks, not sold at Best Buy for $25 each. But hey, I suppose it works the same way as the mythical Toynami Beta fighter. If buy enough of them (MPC Alphas or copies of SC), and wish really really hard, maybe...just maybe....HG will give you what you want.

I think you misunderstand me... the comparison to star wars comes from the very western idea of breaking down a drama into three chunks.

The First Act you introduce all the characters (Star Wars)

The Second Act you put them into a hopless situation they can never get out of (Empire)

And in the Third Act they get out (ROTJ)

What I'm saying is we've only seen the first act of the story. And it had it's own begging, middle and end...

In Star Wars you had the Empire preparing to wipe out the Rebel base and bring an end to the only effective resistance... and you had a handful of people with the key to saving the alliance racing against insurmountable odds in the hopes of finding a way to save them, at the end the Death Star is destroyed and the alliance is safe for now... but the Empire is still out there.

In TSC you have the one ship which gathers all the key information about the aliens and they have to sort it out and try to figure out a way to stope the human race from being totally slaughtered. They succede, through a lot of Dues ex, and wipe out the Haydonite fleet... humanity is safe for now but has 1 years worth of power, and the Haydonites are still out there.

Star Wars is of course way better, the emotional development it a lot stronger within a shorter period of time. Mostly because they focused on a smaller cast of core characters. Really you only had Han, Luke, Leia and Obi-wan... and maybe Chewie if you count him.

Here you have, Vince, Jean, Louis, Marcus, Alex, Scott, Ariel, Rick... and even Marlene could be considered a core character of the movie despite being dead. it was just spread too thinly.

The other thing you have to realize is we're essentially watching three epiodes of a TV series each with it's own seperate mini-climax... and we're still in the rising action of the plot.

And as for the pilot excuse... it's a little lame yeah, but it's as much as what they said on the DVD... they wanted to get the story into fans hands so that they had a product out there that was succesful before going to the TV stations so the stations would have to let them do it their way. As a Buisness student, I don't think it was the wisest move... but it's the move a couple of fanboys like Tommy and Steve might make, so it's probably the case.

Macross 0 had way better choreagraphy. SC had very very predictable action sequences. Oh wow yea like we didn't really see the main character and Alex' Shadow/Beta rolling in unison to fire missles and attack. Not to mention the transformations, they weren't intense or anything mind blowing. Compare the transformations in SC to the first transformation Roy does in the first episode of Macross zero. Which one is better? I didn't mind the fact that the alphas had minimal rendering and alll that, what bothered me is how they were animated. I did want this to be awesome, I wanted to be surprised, I wanted to see what happened to Rick Hunter. But no. All we got was a few glimpses of him, a predictable plot of his ass getting PWNED somehow and of course a botched rescue mission as a catalyst for revenge by his friends to destroy Dr. Claw, or the Haydonites. "Oh wait yea you go with an alien and they killed my sister and now i hate you scott bla bla."

Who didn't see that one coming? The whole thing was very cliche. They had the ingredients for potentially a great continuation and story but its ruined by cliche/useless dialogue, boring CG animation, and so many useless jokes and a very predictable transparent plot. This was not the robotech that we were waiting for like they keep advertising...

The alphas looked okay, but the action sequences were very stale. And even if this is a pilot it has no excuse for being bad. I mean come on they are selling this like a sequel to a great series. If they made this one suck so that part 2 could make up for it, then this one is a waste of money and they are ripping off their fans. Come on there is no logic in making this one bad so that we can buy a sequel that makes up for the badness in this. A good start to a series is Casino Royale. Does this one come off like being a great movie that we want to see whats in part 2? No.

Why should the transformation be intense or mind blowing? it should be simple and fuctional... I don't see the military going "oh let's add as much Pizzaz as possible". M0's transformations and action were so over the top that they got boring... I was like, okay let's get back to the main guy and the tribal chick talking about bird people. The Entire Fokker sub-plot was unncessary, it's like "oh wow let's put Roy in there, cause that would be teh awesome"

And yeah they held off on telling use the final fate of Rick Hunter, that's the whole point it's supposed to give the audience something to look foward too.

I don't think Macross Zero should be getting the bashing it did, I liked it, aside from about the last 5 minutes. The whole Protoculture test was a neat idea.

If I thought it was a bad pilot I'd have to disagree with you... it's got problems being from a mainly untested creative team, which I hope they can resolve. But I think it's promising enough to make me look foward to part 2.

Shadow Chronicles never painted itself into such a corner that the heroes had to fly away on levitating rocks.

Please explain how Ariel is any better? Both shows had an overly-big does of Deus Ex.

Anyway RTSC has a LOT of problems... I'm not saying it's a masterpiece I'm saying it was fun, and that a future series has potential. But I'd take any Macross project over it... even 2.

Edit:

Robotech made the animation worse by really half assed work in the re-editing process, washing out the colors, throwing off the brightness, and bringing the overall quality down a generation. And while the actual animatoin quality (i.e. quality of the designs) isn't terribly consistent, a top episode of Macross (27 for example) is still superior to the animation on shadow chronicles.

See this is a mistake people make all the time... Animation reffers to how something MOVES, hence the word to be animated. and that in TSC is a lot more consitent then in Macross. it's not a matter of the designs... Sailor Moon has good solid designs but suffers from poor animation with lots of stock footage. Also the quality of Designs is completely subjective... Does Simpsons have crappy designs? maybe, maybe not but it's what the artist was going for.

Animation can be judged at an objective level, "this shot the animation is very choppy". Design work can not, "oh this design looks so cool".

Also Robotech didn't dimminsh the animation at all... maybe the video quality was a little lowered which has been fixed up quite a bit on the DVD. but that has to do with the quality of the masters more then anything. But when it was shown it still moved the same way.

The only problem with the designs, was that some of the animators either got lazy or rushed too much while painting them and they looked squashed at time. Think when Hikaru see's Kakizaki while trying to write the letter to his family.

Edited February 21, 2007 by lord_breetai

[Lonewolf]

Well I for one liked it. Bash me up if you'd like, but that won't change my mind. That flick had an overall nice sci-fi story that holds up on its own.

[jenius]

Please explain how Ariel is any better? Both shows had an overly-big does of Deus Ex.

The chick in M0 is just a girl, on an island, in a story that opens in an attempt to bring home the gritty realism of a terrible and tragic war. Remember Shin watching the explosion, remember all the talk of terrible deeds done in the name of war? Remember Shin flying away on a rock? It just doesn't fit, there doesn't seem to be a precedent. In contrast SC has an entirely comic-book feel to it from the Regis' transmutation into the phoenix, the cyborg hotty, and the comic-style cheese that permeates throughout the dialogue and actions. Inserting a comic-book style super hero into the mix seems to fit the overall feel of the show... and there is a precedent, Ariel is a friggin' alien, at some future date, with established super powers that are reinforced by her alien mother also using alien super powers. Do I think they over-used Ariel's super abilities? Oh yeah, definitely. Did I ever find them as downright outlandish and wrong as I did Shin's magic carpet ride in M0? No.

Edited February 21, 2007 by jenius

[kamikaze_kamujin]

Macross Zero is better than Shadow Chronicles, no doubt about it.

here it's an appreciation of both. No a Macross fan appreciation, no a Robotech fan appreciation, a general people appreciation.

Macross Zero 8 out of 125 votes.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0353685

Shadow Chronicles 5.1 out of 91 votes.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443771

The only Macross Shadow Chronicles can beat it's Macross 7. And I'd say it's tied with Macross 2. Well Macross 2 it's better it has cool designs and music something Shadow Chronicles doesnt.

[justvinnie]

I think you misunderstand me... the comparison to star wars comes from the very western idea of breaking down a drama into three chunks.

The First Act you introduce all the characters (Star Wars)

The Second Act you put them into a hopless situation they can never get out of (Empire)

And in the Third Act they get out (ROTJ)

What I'm saying is we've only seen the first act of the story. And it had it's own begging, middle and end...

In Star Wars you had the Empire preparing to wipe out the Rebel base and bring an end to the only effective resistance... and you had a handful of people with the key to saving the alliance racing against insurmountable odds in the hopes of finding a way to save them, at the end the Death Star is destroyed and the alliance is safe for now... but the Empire is still out there.

In TSC you have the one ship which gathers all the key information about the aliens and they have to sort it out and try to figure out a way to stope the human race from being totally slaughtered. They succede, through a lot of Dues ex, and wipe out the Haydonite fleet... humanity is safe for now but has 1 years worth of power, and the Haydonites are still out there.

Star Wars is of course way better, the emotional development it a lot stronger within a shorter period of time. Mostly because they focused on a smaller cast of core characters. Really you only had Han, Luke, Leia and Obi-wan... and maybe Chewie if you count him.

Here you have, Vince, Jean, Louis, Marcus, Alex, Scott, Ariel, Rick... and even Marlene could be considered a core character of the movie despite being dead. it was just spread too thinly.

The other thing you have to realize is we're essentially watching three epiodes of a TV series each with it's own seperate mini-climax... and we're still in the rising action of the plot.

And as for the pilot excuse... it's a little lame yeah, but it's as much as what they said on the DVD... they wanted to get the story into fans hands so that they had a product out there that was succesful before going to the TV stations so the stations would have to let them do it their way. As a Buisness student, I don't think it was the wisest move... but it's the move a couple of fanboys like Tommy and Steve might make, so it's probably the case.

Why should the transformation be intense or mind blowing? it should be simple and fuctional... I don't see the military going "oh let's add as much Pizzaz as possible". M0's transformations and action were so over the top that they got boring... I was like, okay let's get back to the main guy and the tribal chick talking about bird people. The Entire Fokker sub-plot was unncessary, it's like "oh wow let's put Roy in there, cause that would be teh awesome"

And yeah they held off on telling use the final fate of Rick Hunter, that's the whole point it's supposed to give the audience something to look foward too.

I don't think Macross Zero should be getting the bashing it did, I liked it, aside from about the last 5 minutes. The whole Protoculture test was a neat idea.

If I thought it was a bad pilot I'd have to disagree with you... it's got problems being from a mainly untested creative team, which I hope they can resolve. But I think it's promising enough to make me look foward to part 2.

Please explain how Ariel is any better? Both shows had an overly-big does of Deus Ex.

Anyway RTSC has a LOT of problems... I'm not saying it's a masterpiece I'm saying it was fun, and that a future series has potential. But I'd take any Macross project over it... even 2.

Edit:

See this is a mistake people make all the time... Animation reffers to how something MOVES, hence the word to be animated. and that in TSC is a lot more consitent then in Macross. it's not a matter of the designs... Sailor Moon has good solid designs but suffers from poor animation with lots of stock footage. Also the quality of Designs is completely subjective... Does Simpsons have crappy designs? maybe, maybe not but it's what the artist was going for.

Animation can be judged at an objective level, "this shot the animation is very choppy". Design work can not, "oh this design looks so cool".

Also Robotech didn't dimminsh the animation at all... maybe the video quality was a little lowered which has been fixed up quite a bit on the DVD. but that has to do with the quality of the masters more then anything. But when it was shown it still moved the same way.

The only problem with the designs, was that some of the animators either got lazy or rushed too much while painting them and they looked squashed at time. Think when Hikaru see's Kakizaki while trying to write the letter to his family.

You're trying too hard.

Thou doth protest too much.

vinnie

[big F]

I was thinkin' the same thing... my original quote refers to the OSMs, not Robotech. The OSMs are riddled with horrible moments of ridiculously bad animation. I can't really think right now of how Robotech could have made the animation of the originals worse although yeah, in episodes like Dana's Story I could definitely see where people would question the edit choices.

Thats what I meant.

[lord_breetai]

You're trying too hard.

Thou doth protest too much.

vinnie

I think you missed the part where I said it's not a masterpiece... I enjoyed it for what it is and I'm just putting in my views.

The only Macross Shadow Chronicles can beat it's Macross 7. And I'd say it's tied with Macross 2. Well Macross 2 it's better it has cool designs and music something Shadow Chronicles doesnt.

Actually I'd say Mac7 is much better at what it does, and over all I enjoyed it a lot more despite it's slow start... Macross 2's designs wern't all that great IMO, but still enjoyable but I see it on the same level as TSC.

The chick in M0 is just a girl, on an island, in a story that opens in an attempt to bring home the gritty realism of a terrible and tragic war. Remember Shin watching the explosion, remember all the talk of terrible deeds done in the name of war? Remember Shin flying away on a rock? It just doesn't fit, there doesn't seem to be a precedent. In contrast SC has an entirely comic-book feel to it from the Regis' transmutation into the phoenix, the cyborg hotty, and the comic-style cheese that permeates throughout the dialogue and actions. Inserting a comic-book style super hero into the mix seems to fit the overall feel of the show... and there is a precedent, Ariel is a friggin' alien, at some future date, with established super powers that are reinforced by her alien mother also using alien super powers. Do I think they over-used Ariel's super abilities? Oh yeah, definitely. Did I ever find them as downright outlandish and wrong as I did Shin's magic carpet ride in M0? No.

Really... I didn't think anything about the girl after all she was supposed to be from a special protoculture blood line or something, and at least their they had the fall back excuse "it's actually protoculture technology, for the most part but it's just too advanced for us to understand as technology." And with the pre-established Spiritia stuff in Macross it didn't feel out of place to me.

Maybe it's cause I never watched MOSPEADA or New Generation past the first few episodes... but Ariel did bother me a bit. Not too much because she's essentially a glorified transporter and the deus ex machnism dosn't work if she's not there... it's not like they can just go "Beam us up" whenever they're in trouble... Ariel would have to go there, get them, then come back which isn't quite as bad.

But my main problem with Ariel is that they use her to advance the plot any time they can't come up with a decent way it's like...

"well how should they find out the haydonites betrayed them?"

"uhh I can't think of anything, Tommy how about you Steve?"

"No can't think of anything."

"right let's have the Regess appear to Ariel in another vision and tell her that the space station is going to be attacked, then she can beam up to the moon and tell scott"

"yeah that's the bestest idea EVAR!"

it just seems a little weak, there's a rt.comer who calls her "Jean Grey" I'm forced to agree.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I think you misunderstand me... the comparison to star wars comes from the very western idea of breaking down a drama into three chunks.

The First Act you introduce all the characters (Star Wars)

The Second Act you put them into a hopless situation they can never get out of (Empire)

And in the Third Act they get out (ROTJ)

What I'm saying is we've only seen the first act of the story. And it had it's own begging, middle and end...

In Star Wars you had the Empire preparing to wipe out the Rebel base and bring an end to the only effective resistance... and you had a handful of people with the key to saving the alliance racing against insurmountable odds in the hopes of finding a way to save them, at the end the Death Star is destroyed and the alliance is safe for now... but the Empire is still out there.

In TSC you have the one ship which gathers all the key information about the aliens and they have to sort it out and try to figure out a way to stope the human race from being totally slaughtered. They succede, through a lot of Dues ex, and wipe out the Haydonite fleet... humanity is safe for now but has 1 years worth of power, and the Haydonites are still out there.

Star Wars is of course way better, the emotional development it a lot stronger within a shorter period of time. Mostly because they focused on a smaller cast of core characters. Really you only had Han, Luke, Leia and Obi-wan... and maybe Chewie if you count him.

Here you have, Vince, Jean, Louis, Marcus, Alex, Scott, Ariel, Rick... and even Marlene could be considered a core character of the movie despite being dead. it was just spread too thinly.

The other thing you have to realize is we're essentially watching three epiodes of a TV series each with it's own seperate mini-climax... and we're still in the rising action of the plot.

And as for the pilot excuse... it's a little lame yeah, but it's as much as what they said on the DVD... they wanted to get the story into fans hands so that they had a product out there that was succesful before going to the TV stations so the stations would have to let them do it their way. As a Buisness student, I don't think it was the wisest move... but it's the move a couple of fanboys like Tommy and Steve might make, so it's probably the case.

Why should the transformation be intense or mind blowing? it should be simple and fuctional... I don't see the military going "oh let's add as much Pizzaz as possible". M0's transformations and action were so over the top that they got boring... I was like, okay let's get back to the main guy and the tribal chick talking about bird people. The Entire Fokker sub-plot was unncessary, it's like "oh wow let's put Roy in there, cause that would be teh awesome"

And yeah they held off on telling use the final fate of Rick Hunter, that's the whole point it's supposed to give the audience something to look foward too.

I don't think Macross Zero should be getting the bashing it did, I liked it, aside from about the last 5 minutes. The whole Protoculture test was a neat idea.

If I thought it was a bad pilot I'd have to disagree with you... it's got problems being from a mainly untested creative team, which I hope they can resolve. But I think it's promising enough to make me look foward to part 2.

Please explain how Ariel is any better? Both shows had an overly-big does of Deus Ex.

Anyway RTSC has a LOT of problems... I'm not saying it's a masterpiece I'm saying it was fun, and that a future series has potential. But I'd take any Macross project over it... even 2.

Edit:

See this is a mistake people make all the time... Animation reffers to how something MOVES, hence the word to be animated. and that in TSC is a lot more consitent then in Macross. it's not a matter of the designs... Sailor Moon has good solid designs but suffers from poor animation with lots of stock footage. Also the quality of Designs is completely subjective... Does Simpsons have crappy designs? maybe, maybe not but it's what the artist was going for.

Animation can be judged at an objective level, "this shot the animation is very choppy". Design work can not, "oh this design looks so cool".

Also Robotech didn't dimminsh the animation at all... maybe the video quality was a little lowered which has been fixed up quite a bit on the DVD. but that has to do with the quality of the masters more then anything. But when it was shown it still moved the same way.

The only problem with the designs, was that some of the animators either got lazy or rushed too much while painting them and they looked squashed at time. Think when Hikaru see's Kakizaki while trying to write the letter to his family.

Why should they be intense and mind blowing? Because its supposed to look awesome, your watching an animated movie, boring stuff will not appeal to viewers. This is common sense. Theres always a sense of "been there done that" when seeing something like this. Come on this is an animated movie, part of a trilogy, transformations are supposed to be awesome and awe inspiring. Its mecha for gods sake. I am sure if according to you transformations should be simple and functional then ILM and Dreamworks wouldn't be spending a ton of money and an assload of time making the transformers live action movie look awesome by july.

I agree on the functional part, for practicality yes, but the whole point of even seeing it in animation is to see it in practicality, functionality and also seeing it done in an artistic way worthy of the wait they keep advertising. What we saw is what 3d animators are capable of in school. However this is not school, this is an animated movie hyped to death and delayed all along.

Same thing in a comic, why draw a boring sequence if it can be drawn in a better way that gets the readers attention? This has NOTHING to do with how it transforms, rather, how it is presented.

[lord_breetai]

Why should they be intense and mind blowing? Because its supposed to look awesome, your watching an animated movie, boring stuff will not appeal to viewers. This is common sense. Theres always a sense of "been there done that" when seeing something like this. Come on this is an animated movie, part of a trilogy, transformations are supposed to be awesome and awe inspiring. Its mecha for gods sake. I am sure if according to you transformations should be simple and functional then ILM and Dreamworks wouldn't be spending a ton of money and an assload of time making the transformers live action movie look awesome by july.

I agree on the functional part, for practicality yes, but the whole point of even seeing it in animation is to see it in practicality, functionality and also seeing it done in an artistic way worthy of the wait they keep advertising. What we saw is what 3d animators are capable of in school. However this is not school, this is an animated movie hyped to death and delayed all along.

Same thing in a comic, why draw a boring sequence if it can be drawn in a better way that gets the readers attention? This has NOTHING to do with how it transforms, rather, how it is presented.

Oh putting it that way I agree. I thought you were talking about having five second transformation sequence. as opposed to as you brought up Optimus Prime's transformation in the TF trailer which was just way too long. I'm a fan of Mahou Shojo shows, Ultraman and i've even enjoyed a couple sentai shows so I know all about transformation scenes that can be long and cool.

But I dunno in Macross and Robotech it always seemed to me the transformation should be lighting quick cause your transforming in the middle of a heated battle. and excepting the first transformation Hikaru does that's what I always got out of Macross. (that one's fine because you wern't supposed to know about the transformable mecha yet and you were wondering what the hell whas going on).

It's nothing against eye candy transformations in particular... I mean who didn't love watching Buster Machine 1 and 2 merge to become the gunbuster? But Macross Zero just didn't seem to have much drama to it during the battle sequences... and then the transformations just seemed pointless... I was never so much bored during the fight scenes as I was in M0, and I guess that's where all this is comming from.

[big F]

But my main problem with Ariel is that they use her to advance the plot any time they can't come up with a decent way it's like...

"well how should they find out the haydonites betrayed them?"

"uhh I can't think of anything, Tommy how about you Steve?"

"No can't think of anything."

"right let's have the Regess appear to Ariel in another vision and tell her that the space station is going to be attacked, then she can beam up to the moon and tell scott"

"yeah that's the bestest idea EVAR!"

it just seems a little weak, there's a rt.comer who calls her "Jean Grey" I'm forced to agree.

I can so picture this at HG towers or where ever they though it up/

[Phyrox]

So, I just saw this thing. I thought I'd contribute my thoughts to any undecideds out there.

First of all I'm not comparing it to contemporary anime, I don't really watch anime besides a few select classics.

Well, it was terrible. I really, really thought all the naysayers on this board were exaggerating with their condemnations. They weren't. Hand to God, they were not.

The cel animation I didn't mind, besides the character designs (which, as has been said, were not great).

The CG was atrocious. Again, I thought people were being overly harsh, but this really looked like a "Rebel Assault" cut scene. I didn't mind the CG models exactly, but their movement. The stiffness of everything really stood out, there was no fluidity of motion with any of the mechs or starships. What an eyesore. I was particularly irked by this because, not caring much for the Robotech story, I only watched it to see some of my favorite mecha back in action.

The battles, with their perfectly lined up and identically arranged units really added to the amateurish feel.

The explosions might have been the biggest surprise. Like out of a PS1 game. Nearly all identical, and all just a blurry orange ball. At least once you could see an explosion "clipping" the ship it was blowing up on, exactly like a PS1 game.

The old changes in some of the old designs (giving Ikazuchi's starwars-style hangers and giving Garfish synchro cannons) added nothing, and I thought it kinda lame not to be more faithful.

The story was booorrring, and tired.

The dialog was painful. Seriously people, who did they think the audience was? Aging Robotech fans would demand better dialogue and newer, younger people...well they're never gonna see this anyway, who are we kidding?

As for what I did like:

The cyclone that Vince used looked pretty sweet, and I'm a big fan of the Icarus design. That's it.

So, to sum up: Very disappointing CG animation +childish dialog + banal plot = reluctant agreement that SC is a stinker.

I'm bummed that it was such a waste.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Phyrox

[Sundown]

Late to the party, but here's my five-minute review after watching SC.

For what it's worth, for all its suckitude, I like Robotech. While I prefer much of the original, I actually enjoy certain changes Robotech made to Macross's storyline, and Robotech's soundtrack appeals more to my western sensibilities. And while I'll readily admit that the original Macross's production was higher in quality as a whole, and it is in a word "better", there are still some elements from Robotech that I prefer.

Anyway, finished it yesterday after starting it the day before. It was about 30 minutes into the thing when I got a little bored and decided I'd rather watch a few episodes of 24, but managed to finish it last night. It wasn't a disaster, but it wasn't very "good". It was somewhat enjoyable, seeing old characters again and being brought back to Robotech lore, but at the same time, SC just didn't have the magic that the original Mospeda, Macross, and RT had. The production was extremely mediocre, and at points, just plain bad. Everything-- the writing, the animation, the CG, the voice acting-- just reminded you constantly that this was an anime imitation produced by Americans. I'm not of the thought that any "anime" that involves Americans (or Koreans contracted by American producers for that matter) *has* to suck-- I've heard great things about certain Disney dubs-- but nearly every aspect of SC calls attention to what it really is, and it constantly takes me out of the story. The CG was just awful-- at parts even amateurish. The explosions were horrendous. One sequence featured three identical explosions next to each other in a line, because the CG artist couldn't be bothered to hide the fact that he was copy-and-pasting the same explosion throughout the scene. Rotating the explosions or moving them away from each other would have at least helped to mask the uber-cheap production values, but whoever was in charge of that scene couldn't even bother to do that.

2D animation quality was extremely inconsistent. Colors were vibrant and sparkly, but the animation had a certain stiffness about it. I found it funny that the producers felt the need to animate asian-anime mannerisms in an American produced show, and even funnier that the voice acting and dialogue matched these mannerisms more poorly than they did RT. It's not like the voice actors had to adapt to animated characters speaking another language to another culture-- the entire production was intended for an American audience from the start. Yet everything meshed even more poorly than the old dubbed show. Maybe it was the bad voice acting, or bad directing, or bad animation, but whatever the reason, it just added to the feeling that what you were watching wasn't authentic. The cockpit scenes were some of the best drawn in the show, even if the characters' over-exaggerated expressions didn't quite match what they were saying most of the time, but as a whole, the 2D animation was pretty underwhelming, even if it didn't make me want to claw my eyes out.

Dialogue was lacking, and I'd say the voice acting was even worse than in RT. I attribute part of this to shoddy writing and part of this to bad direction, but most of the deliveries in SC were either stiff or overly dramatic and stiff. It was comforting to hear old voice actors reprise their roles, but there was still something lacking in their deliveries compared to their work 20 years ago. Dialogue in parts were painfully lame, even though some parts could have been funny if it wasn't so evident that the writer was trying hard to be funny. What I don't get was why the writers were *trying* to write in the kind of overacted awkwardness usually present in a dub, where lines are force fit to a character's lips and timing. Maybe they think this is part of anime's magic, but with character expressions being so unconvincing in SC at times, it just calls to attention how silly all the overacted dialogue is.

Storyline was passable. Some of the characters and concepts introduced were interesting, and the plot and storyline works when viewed from 10,000 feet-- I even kind of liked the ending-- but it's in the actual execution and delivery that SC falls short.

Character designs were interesting-- they're for the most part likeable, even if I take issue with Janice and Marlene having nearly identical bust bearing outfits. All the boobage was rediculous, and not in a good way, and a woman's hair comes in more than shades of purple, alien, android, or otherwise-- it would have made perfect sense for Maya Sterling to have some shade of blue-green hair-- but I liked the designs for most of the characters. I wouldn't have minded watching a series that featured more of these designs, if they pulled back a bit on the badly drawn boobage and panderingly-pretty factor. I didn't hate Scott's redesign as much as I thought I would, and he felt mostly like the same character, so they did something right, or at least managed not to screw up completely.

Anyway, SC was vaguely fun, and kind of enjoyable-- that's kind of Robotech, and yet a little disenginuous-- while mediocre and amateurish in spots, still manages to be cohesive and watchable enough, even if I have a hard time calling it "good" or even decent. It sort of reminded you of something that could have been a lot better and a lot more fun-- even if it only bore a vague resemblance to it.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Sundown

[CoryHolmes]

Why should they be intense and mind blowing? Because its supposed to look awesome, your watching an animated movie, boring stuff will not appeal to viewers. This is common sense. Theres always a sense of "been there done that" when seeing something like this. Come on this is an animated movie, part of a trilogy, transformations are supposed to be awesome and awe inspiring. Its mecha for gods sake. I am sure if according to you transformations should be simple and functional then ILM and Dreamworks wouldn't be spending a ton of money and an assload of time making the transformers live action movie look awesome by july.

I agree on the functional part, for practicality yes, but the whole point of even seeing it in animation is to see it in practicality, functionality and also seeing it done in an artistic way worthy of the wait they keep advertising. What we saw is what 3d animators are capable of in school. However this is not school, this is an animated movie hyped to death and delayed all along.

Same thing in a comic, why draw a boring sequence if it can be drawn in a better way that gets the readers attention? This has NOTHING to do with how it transforms, rather, how it is presented.

So you hated the lightning fast transformations in Macross Plus then?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

So you hated the lightning fast transformations in Macross Plus then?

Nope I loved them. Why? Because they were done in a way that was effective, believable, functional, and dynamic. Shadow Chronicles transformations are not what I call dynamic, they were boring. Look at something like Macross II, hell even Transformers Cybertron, that had good transformation sequences, just to show that this isn't really a SC vs Macross thing, more or less a boring vs exciting thing.

And no I am not a toynami and robotech hater. I defended the MPC's, still do till this day, and I grew up watching robotech which led me to macross. Did I want SC to be AWESOME? Hell yes I did. But was it? No. Was it worthy of the hype they were giving while it was facing delays? No. Maybe part II will be good but this movie was not.

[jenius]

hey, at least it didn't utilize canned action sequences. How hilarious would that have been in a movie??? "Wait, isn't this the exact same animation from 10 minutes ago?

[yellowlightman]

hey, at least it didn't utilize canned action sequences. How hilarious would that have been in a movie??? "Wait, isn't this the exact same animation from 10 minutes ago?

Kind of like the original Macross TV series?