MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Noyhauser]

My apologies, I should have made that distinction. I was talking about the ghost booster modification, because you are completely right, the actual FPs were more like the VF-19's designed to create more loadout options for the fighter in an atmosphere.

Although I'd still say the VF-0 was underpowered, definately compared to the VF-1. If I'm calculating this correctly, the VF-0 doesn't even have a 1:1 thrust ratio... its engine thrust with afterburners is around 15,000Kg (I've calculated it from the Kn rating they give on the compendium, Im not a math major so take that with a grain of salt), and it weighs around 16,000kg empty... in reality, it shouldn't be even able to hover in Gerwalk or Battroid with those sort of statistics (so that probably means I've made an error). The VF-1 has a take off weight of 18,000 Kg, and an overthrust capability of 23,000kg.

Still I think the VF-0 was seen to be an evolutionary step, so that pilots could get some experience in variable combat and to provide some combat data on the design.

Also it could have been a stop gap design to combat a coming Anti-UN threat. They got the designs for the transformation sequence from the Anti-un so they knew something was coming. If the UN-Spacy forsaw that the complexity of the Thermonuclear engine would not be solved for quite some time, they likely opted to produce a second fighter from the original design (much like the Superhornet from the legacy) to fill all these roles.

[azrael]

f-15s have real fast packs?

Yes.

like.. booster packs to make them go faster?

Ummmm, no. For generalization purposes for the VF, we include the boosters and weapon systems as part of the entire set (even though we really shouldn't) since it would be easier to explain to many people (in a few instances, weapon and additional systems are built in to the FAST packs). FAST packs really are just what they stand for. Fuel and sensor pods.

just seems odd that at the end of mac-0 they knew the valks needed more horsepower but built them without fast packs anyway, then later added them.

Refer to Noyhauser's note about different requirements for different environments.

At that point, the FAST pack package they had (Super parts for just the legs) was all that was built for the VF-0 (that all they thought would be needed). But since they needed more thrust and more weapons, the flight crews added on the additional missile launchers (located on the dorsal side above dorsal fuel tanks) and the Ghost booster. That was a field modification. Not a prototype FAST/Super pack prototype.

Actually, I don't think the VF-0's FP were designed to compensate for any deficiency of the VF-0 per se. Instead they were intended to test the idea of FP for the VF-1

Actually I could argue it for both. The VF-0 was a tad underpowered. So to compensate for it, we see its Super parts. However, since it was such a nifty idea, the idea also served as a test to the VF-1. Conceptually, a VF-0 and VF-1 are pretty close.

Also it could have been a stop gap design to combat a coming Anti-UN threat. They got the designs for the transformation sequence from the Anti-un so they knew something was coming.

Actually, the Anti-UN got the VF data when DD defected to the Anti-UN (see here). And if the SV-51 was deployed already, you would have to bet that the UN needed to counter that threat.

edit: can't spell.....

Edited November 1, 2004 by azrael

[Noyhauser]

I was referring to DD's and Nora's comment in episode 2 where she said that the UN spacy stole it from them, then DD says, from their united perspective, its not stealing. Maybe the fansubs got it wrong (which isn't the first time) but from listening to it, it seems to me that they are correct.

Moreover, DD could have stolen the VF-1's prototype data, while the UN spacy stole the transformation data before it.

[RichterX]

I was referring to DD's and Nora's comment in episode 2 where she said that the UN spacy stole it from them, then DD says, from their united perspective, its not stealing. Maybe the fansubs got it wrong (which isn't the first time) but from listening to it, it seems to me that they are correct.

Moreover, DD could have stolen the VF-1's prototype data, while the UN spacy stole the transformation data before it.

I think the Anbu translation says that in the UN perspective the Anti UN were the ones that stole the variable fighter technology

[Noyhauser]

I've got the same translation, and it definately says that the UN took the information from Anti-UN.

Nora: "its just the transformation system they stole from us..."

DD "From their "united" perspective, they didn't steal it from us, all states, regardless..."

To me it sounds like its correct as well, but its too complex a sentence for me to be sure. I'll go ask a japanese friend if she agrees with it as well.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

I have the Anbu translation and a Spanish translation and both make clear that the UN stole the information (the transformation system) from the Anti-UN.

[ewilen]

Although I'd still say the VF-0 was underpowered, definately compared to the VF-1. If I'm calculating this correctly, the VF-0 doesn't even have a 1:1 thrust ratio... its engine thrust with afterburners is around 15,000Kg (I've calculated it from the Kn rating they give on the compendium, Im not a math major so take that with a grain of salt), and it weighs around 16,000kg empty... in reality, it shouldn't be even able to hover in Gerwalk or Battroid with those sort of statistics (so that probably means I've made an error). The VF-1 has a take off weight of 18,000 Kg, and an overthrust capability of 23,000kg.

I took a stab at the T:W ratios of the VF-0 and VF-1 over in this post. Here's what I came up with:

VF-0A/S (normal): 1.15

VF-0D (normal): 1.11

VF-0A/S (afterburner): 1.88

VF-0D (afterburner): 1.81

VF-1A/J/D (normal): 1.74

VF-1A/J/D (overboost): 3.47 (!)

One problem, though: both you and I use the empty weight. David H. has since informed me that T:W ratio should use a weight including 50% fuel load plus a "typical" air-air combat loadout (e.g. 2 IR homers, 2 radar-guided, 50% or more of the gun ammo). I don't have time to revise my calculations just now, though.

[azrael]

I've got the same translation, and it definately says that the UN took the information from Anti-UN.

Nora: "its just the transformation system they stole from us..."

DD "From their "united" perspective, they didn't steal it from us, all states, regardless..."

To me it sounds like its correct as well, but its too complex a sentence for me to be sure. I'll go ask a japanese friend if she agrees with it as well.

I think it boils down to a "he said/she said" arguement.

[fooman]

Where did you guys get to see episode 5? Sorry guys, but 17 pages of threads is just a bit too much for me to read to find out where you saw it.

[Noyhauser]

ahh that looks much better, thanks ewilian! I was thinking about that thread actually.

The compendium does list a take off weight for the VF-1, and I think its a ground take off weight for a fully loaded atmospheric role.

It just goes to show how much #@@ the VF-1 could have wrought if it was deployed in the conflict. Who needs boosters when you already have 3:1 power to weight ratios?

[ewilen]

Some of you seem to be missing this part of Nanashi translation of the M0:5 liner notes:

Even the additional armament package manufactured by Shinnakasu Industry was just test equipment for the VF-1 and only a few sets and few configurations were made. Conformal missile/fuel tanks installed at both engine nacelles are part of the augmentative armament “Super Pack” and other parts were not completed yet.

The planned FASTpack for the VF-0 did include a Super Pack--it wasn't just the leg attachments. We don't know for sure if the Super Pack was intended for use in the atmosphere, to augment performance there, or was space-only as with the VF-1. But the note implies that it was entirely a test version of the VF-1 pack. This may be related to the VF-0 being designed for space use even though it has conventional engines. The FP would provide a realistic capability in space beyond just using the Gerwalk mode tail thrusters. But I would still argue that the entire setup was originally intended as a test or proof of concept.

I've argued that the VF-0 was not intended for mass production: it was a testbed for technologies which would be used in the VF-1 program. When the VF-1 was delayed, the VF-0 design was then rushed into production to meet the anti-UN's SV threat. Rather than repeat myself, here are links to the main threads where I and others have given the evidence and reasoning for this conclusion:

VF-0 vs. VF-1

Does it bug anyone else?

I think ___ will make an appearance in M0

valks, question

Will Kawamori-san do a redesign for the VF-1?

[Aurel Tristen]

any pic of D.D´s death?

Ask and you shall receive

Just a comment. (Not directed at anyone in particular.) But ain't it funny how people can post gruesome violent bloody death pics directly to the forums, and my threads which had a clearly noted advisory and only contained offsite links to naked Misa artwork get deleted and I get sh;t on.... Hmmm.... real family friendly. Oh well.

[Roy Focker]

Do me a favor, grow up.

[Roy Focker]

Anyways my late opinion on the last episode.

It looks to me that Kawamori and company planned out 5 episodes but through the actual production expanded it to 6 episodes while still only making 5. This last one should have been spilt up in two parts.

[ewilen]

After burning the ANBU sub to SVCD and watching it on TV, I find myself liking it more and more. Maybe it's because I'm taking it on its own terms instead of trying to connect it to the rest of Macross. I know this sort of contradicts what I wrote earlier about the story not being very original; all I can say is, the audio-visual execution takes what might be a typical anime blow-up ending and turns it into something more.

Still looking forward to watching the whole OAV in one gulp.

[Backstabber]

Actually you made my point here as well but on the oposite side of the coin. Why does it have to be transforming jets in every series. This is the repetitiveness I speak of. I would like to see Macross take on a completely new role mecha and character wise. Often fans have remarked the mecha was a backdrop to the real story so why does the same backdrop have to be there. Then again this is Macross's moneymaker and I can watch a different anime for that I guess. I'm not saying I hated it all.. just don't feel as amazed as I used to be with Macross.

Why would there be a Macross series without these themes, or transforming mecha for that matter. If you're looking for a Macross series that doesn't contain those elements, then why not watch something else? The nature of a storyline/franchise is to maintain a constant set of elements, and Macross has alwasy done it well while still keeping things fresh.

Well I stated I could do that in the original quote. However I will explain further. It doesn't have to be stories based solely around Valk pilots. Why not have the story evolve onto themes where the main backdrop is around destroid pilots or even move into the realm of Zentraedi evolution after space war 1 instead of it always focusing upon how great humans are. (Just thinking aloud as I type) These are just some ideas I would like to see as new roles for Macross. However I also realize Kawamori's facination with flight/pilots and he partially makes these animes to appease his own fantasies which means these ideas are mostly wishful thinking.

[Anubis]

Actually you made my point here as well but on the oposite side of the coin. Why does it have to be transforming jets in every series. This is the repetitiveness I speak of. I would like to see Macross take on a completely new role mecha and character wise. Often fans have remarked the mecha was a backdrop to the real story so why does the same backdrop have to be there. Then again this is Macross's moneymaker and I can watch a different anime for that I guess. I'm not saying I hated it all.. just don't feel as amazed as I used to be with Macross.

Why would there be a Macross series without these themes, or transforming mecha for that matter. If you're looking for a Macross series that doesn't contain those elements, then why not watch something else? The nature of a storyline/franchise is to maintain a constant set of elements, and Macross has alwasy done it well while still keeping things fresh.

Well I stated I could do that in the original quote. However I will explain further. It doesn't have to be stories based solely around Valk pilots. Why not have the story evolve onto themes where the main backdrop is around destroid pilots or even move into the realm of Zentraedi evolution after space war 1 instead of it always focusing upon how great humans are. (Just thinking aloud as I type) These are just some ideas I would like to see as new roles for Macross. However I also realize Kawamori's facination with flight/pilots and he partially makes these animes to appease his own fantasies which means these ideas are mostly wishful thinking.

Transforming VF's and their pilots are an integral part of macross to begin with.

I've liked the idea (in the many times it's been brought up before) about a short Destroid based OVA, but in reality it would be like watching Gundam. At a minimum having at least some destroid pilots in the main cast in addition to the VF pilots would be nice in a future series.

You can't take out the VF's though and still call it Macross. Flight will always and should always be a part of it.

M7 showed a lot of Zentraedi. A few of the Macross-class colony fleets were entirely Zentraedi (a large part of M7 as well). They eventually fully assimilated along with us. SDF Macross showed some of the initial difficulty, but that difficulty subsided rather soon.

Edited November 1, 2004 by Anubis

[Radd]

The idea of a Macross show based around destroid pilots or Zentradi have been tossed around before, and I will 100% agree with you, that these would make for some intersting departures from the usual fighter pilot main characters. However, I'm a bit of an aviation fan myself, and so the shows so far have remained appealing to me in that respect, and I love the themes of the show, and I'm rarely dissapointed with the execution of the story.

Even when I am dissapointed, such as the end of Macross Zero, it's just that it's not quite as awesome as it could have been.

While I do hope we see such departures in the future, for the reasons you've already stated, I won't hold my breath.

[uminoken]

Thoughts after finally seeing it....

-It definately should have been 6 eps: the opening was massively rushed, but once it got going it didn't let up

-The music has gotten supremely better...been awhile since we had an opera covering the final battle of an anime, but I do wish they wouldn't use the same music over and over (the score from the first Shin/Nora fight is tracked in all over)

-Best dogfights, even squeaking out over Plus, mainly cause it was a dual fight

-Editing wasn't the best, half the time when I saw the characters, it felt like scenes was missing showing how they got there

-Shin's plane dropping into the ocean was hilarious....did they mean it to be?

Overall I liked it, but it shoulda been longer

[mikeszekely]

Okay, a couple of things got me thinking.

First off, while the APHOS is mostly a blend of mechanical and organic technology, ultimately, it's a tool. A kind of mecha, almost, with Sara as the pilot. When it was questioning Sara, it seemed to be a way of determining what mode to start in... creation mode (the mode it was used to genetically engineer humankind) or destruction mode (the mode that was used in M0). APHOS does not evaluate the trutfullness of the answers... technically, Sara's answer to the first question was wrong. Mankind had NOT developed the technology behind interstellar travel (a huge difference between interstellar travel and simple space flight). During the timeline when Macross Zero takes place, the ONLY fold-capable ship that humankind had was the Macross, which wasn't built by man, and those fold boosters probably hadn't been used since the moments leading up to the crash. After startup, Sara was the pilot. The fact that Sara broke off the attack DOES NOT mean that humankind passed or failed some kind of ultimate test definatively. Yes, the Protoculture probably wanted to keep humankind from taking wars into space. And yes, the Nome family are probably direct decendants of the Protoculture who brought APHOS to earth in the first place, and the Nome family was probably entrusted with the responsibilyt to judge humanity and use APHOS accordingly. But ultimately, it was Sara who decided to use the Song of Destruction (apparently, the Protoculture where very musical and very in touch with the power of music, and not just for whacking Protodeviln), and ultimately, it was Sara who decided to change her mind. The fact that the APHOS initiated a fold after getting hit with four reaction weapons could be an automated failsafe, though, and I'm very curious to know where it went.

Now, another thing... humans are supposedly a sub-protoculture race evolved from earth's native life, apparently simian. (The fish-man thing seems more of a myth analogous to something else than a direct comment on mankind's origins). Now, I don't think that it was a random event... otherwise, earth would be more special and not forgotten in the conflict between the Stellar Rebublic and the Supervision Army. In all likeliness, earth was one of a number of seeded planets, and Zola is apparently another example, with the native life having been marsupials instead of simians. So, are there more APHOS out there? Is there another perhaps one on Zola?

If I recall correctly, the timeline in the Compendium doesn't say that Protoculture are extinct... just nearly extinct. The Zentraedi are still looking for remnants of the Supervision Army. They must have found some remnants within recent history, or else they probably would have quit looking (although, with that being their only real driving purpose, they might have continued for millenia just for lack of anything else to do). I think the original Macross even hints that there are still some in the episode where they go to take the factory satellite and find a ship, but the ship is gone when they look for it later. Plus, the Zentraedi were only "programmed" to go after the Supervision Army. The remnants of the Stellar Republic might have retreated to one core planet, and might be there today, still technologicaly advanced, but afraid to leave their local area. Suppose that Sara's APHOS retreated to there? Or that the Megaroad-01 found it, and hence the lack of communication since (the Protoculture don't really want to be found)?

Now, look at all of that in light of the fact that humankind did not develop interstellar travel on its own, but rather by reverse engineering technology gleended from the wreck of a Protoculture ship that crashed on earth by chance, and further developed after mixing technology with the Zentraedi. Also consider that, now armed with fold technology and setting off to colonize other worlds, that humankind hasn't really left war behind. The Megaroads and the the Macross City ships were part of larger fleets that contained numerous warships. Macross Zero and the canon story in Macross VF-X2 show that humans are still very inclined to fight amongst themselves, and although the aliens in SDF Macross and Macross 7 were the aggressors, how long before the UN starts hostilely invading planets it wants to colonize? How will Protoculture remnants or other APHOS react to humankind sending warships throughout the galaxy? As the UN colonizes space, will they make the same mistakes the Protoculture did when they were creating their Stellar Republic? (Remember, the Zentraedi weren't created to be frontline grunts in the war between the Stellar Republic and the Supervision Army... they were created to be shock troops when a planet resisted colonization by the Stellar Republic).

All-in-all, there's a lot of ground left to be covered in the Macross franchise.

[KingNor]

any pic of D.D´s death?

Ask and you shall receive

Just a comment. (Not directed at anyone in particular.) But ain't it funny how people can post gruesome violent bloody death pics directly to the forums, and my threads which had a clearly noted advisory and only contained offsite links to naked Misa artwork get deleted and I get sh;t on.... Hmmm.... real family friendly. Oh well.

i've always thought it was kind of weird when violence is ok and sex is taboo. but such is life, and thats the society we live in, ya gotta just deal with it.

and you getting sh!t on is definately a topic for a diffrent web site all togeather

mikeszekely:

you make some good points.

it's intresting to think that the APHOS thing could be piloted by anyone, and the answers to it's questions could be false, and its mission can be halted by the pilot for apparently personal reasons.

makes the ending a tad more ominous than "congratulatory"

what i mean is that. the thing clearly wanted to blow up the earth and kill humanity. luckly the girl was able to stop it. what's that mean for the future, is it going to come back, maybe unpiloted this time? or with a professional pilot?

also you make a good point about mankind having not actually developed interstellar space travel. I'm not sure what implications that error could have in the way the APHOS judges mankind.

is it enough that we HAVE interstellar space travel, or is it important that we created our own methods?

by not developing to the point where we could create our own space fairing ships, maybe we've missed a crucial point in society evolution. Perhaps the task of creating star ships is something better suited to a global effort. and effort on that scale with out peace could show that there is something wrong with the society.

i think it's been shown that the Zentradi didn't create their ships, the Protoculture did, and i think the protoculture are fairly peiceful people that CREATED a warring people.

the fact that we were GIVEN a interstellar ship and didn't create one on our own could possibly throw the APHOS's test way off.

intresting stuff, good points!

[Capt Hungry]

Ok.......just watched it.

wtf?

I really wish that they'd spent some more time planning things out. I guess I can chalk up some things to the usual "anime magic"..........but is that what Kawamori-san and crew had in mind?

The fight scenes were very cool of course.

But I feel very let down.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I just want a better explanation of what the hell happened in teh end. Also if Nora and DD died fighting Focker and Shin it would have been better, but they AFOS annhilated them. I hope kawamori has a OVA in mind with some new footage and changed events.

[justvinnie]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

[Agent ONE]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

Considering the Protodevlin all looked different... No. But maybe the twin ones that had that lame-ass, pole-smokin laugh. As well as capabilities, yeah. But the similarities end there.

[azrael]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

Hummm........ Protoculture made AFOS. Protoculture made the "Evil Series" (which would later be inhabited and permanently become the Protodevlin). I think that pretty much answers that....

http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronol...0000/index.html

[TheLoneWolf]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

It shouldn't come as any surprise that the Protodevlin (primarily, Glavil) and the AFOS resemble each other: they both have the same creator, Kawamori.

• both are humongous
  
• both are capable of flight
  
• both are nearly indestructible
  
• both are capable or projecting powerful bio-organic blasts of energy
  
• both are capable of interstellar travel
  
• both are capable of speech
  
• both are, apparently, immortal
  
• both are just plain freaky looking
  

[Renato]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

It shouldn't come as any surprise that the Protodevlin (primarily, Glavil) and the AFOS resemble each other: they both have the same creator, Kawamori.

• both are humongous
  
• both are capable of flight
  
• both are nearly indestructible
  
• both are capable or projecting powerful bio-organic blasts of energy
  
• both are capable of interstellar travel
  
• both are capable of speech
  
• both are, apparently, immortal
  
• both are just plain freaky looking
  

Actually not Kawamori, but Miyatake.

By the way, did his Design Works book ever come out in the end, or was it just shelved?

[Keith]

Okay, a couple of things got me thinking.

First off, while the APHOS is mostly a blend of mechanical and organic technology, ultimately, it's a tool. A kind of mecha, almost, with Sara as the pilot. When it was questioning Sara, it seemed to be a way of determining what mode to start in... creation mode (the mode it was used to genetically engineer humankind) or destruction mode (the mode that was used in M0).

Wait, has it been determined officially if the AFOS was the tool initiated to manipulate life on Earth? I still haven't seen anything that points to it being more than a sentry.

APHOS does not evaluate the trutfullness of the answers... technically, Sara's answer to the first question was wrong. Mankind had NOT developed the technology behind interstellar travel (a huge difference between interstellar travel and simple space flight).

This isn't necessarily true at all. We know for a fact that by this time the Macross was near complete with its refit (and regardless of whether the fold engines were tested or not, Earth did still have the technology). In addition, there are the ARMD carriers, Mars base, & the various other cruisers that had been completed. It may have been enough for Sara to know that man walked on the moon in the 60's to warrent a "yes" answer.

During the timeline when Macross Zero takes place, the ONLY fold-capable ship that humankind had was the Macross, which wasn't built by man, and those fold boosters probably hadn't been used since the moments leading up to the crash.

Again, the question isn't specificaly whether man has developed fold engines, nor is the scope of the question defined. Breaking out of Earth's orbit may well be enough to warrent a "yes."

After startup, Sara was the pilot. The fact that Sara broke off the attack DOES NOT mean that humankind passed or failed some kind of ultimate test definatively.

Oh i agree. Likely the AFOS is kicking back, waiting for a definative answer, perhaps a new test at the center of the galaxy.

Yes, the Protoculture probably wanted to keep humankind from taking wars into space. And yes, the Nome family are probably direct decendants of the Protoculture who brought APHOS to earth in the first place, and the Nome family was probably entrusted with the responsibilyt to judge humanity and use APHOS accordingly.

There's no reason to doubt the myth's that were presented. The Nome family (and likely all of the Mayan islanders) were descended from those fish people/bird people highbrids. A watchguard to keep an eye on the rest of humanity descended from simians.

But ultimately, it was Sara who decided to use the Song of Destruction (apparently, the Protoculture where very musical and very in touch with the power of music, and not just for whacking Protodeviln), and ultimately, it was Sara who decided to change her mind.

Sara was only doing what she was taught to do from childhood. If you're trained from the beginning of life to whipeout humanity if it faulters, then naturally that's what you're going to do

The fact that the APHOS initiated a fold after getting hit with four reaction weapons could be an automated failsafe, though, and I'm very curious to know where it went.

Actually, it didn't seem to flinch when getting hit by those reaction weapons. More likely it just ignored them, and awaited its role as a future test.

Now, another thing... humans are supposedly a sub-protoculture race evolved from earth's native life, apparently simian. (The fish-man thing seems more of a myth analogous to something else than a direct comment on mankind's origins).

I still dissagree. Take a look at Mao's swimming abilities, even more specifically Sara & Mao's similar to human, but different, bloodtype (and again, likely with traits shared by all Mayan Islanders), and tell me you think the fish people story is pure myth. I think especially due to their isolatedness, that Mayan island was developed seperately from the rest of humanity.

Now, I don't think that it was a random event... otherwise, earth would be more special and not forgotten in the conflict between the Stellar Rebublic and the Supervision Army. In all likeliness, earth was one of a number of seeded planets, and Zola is apparently another example, with the native life having been marsupials instead of simians. So, are there more APHOS out there? Is there another perhaps one on Zola?

Perhaps Zola itself was another test for humanity, how they would be treated. Or perhaps the Ginga Kujira were their test (which humanity walked in & helped with).

If I recall correctly, the timeline in the Compendium doesn't say that Protoculture are extinct... just nearly extinct. The Zentraedi are still looking for remnants of the Supervision Army. They must have found some remnants within recent history, or else they probably would have quit looking (although, with that being their only real driving purpose, they might have continued for millenia just for lack of anything else to do). I think the original Macross even hints that there are still some in the episode where they go to take the factory satellite and find a ship, but the ship is gone when they look for it later. Plus, the Zentraedi were only "programmed" to go after the Supervision Army. The remnants of the Stellar Republic might have retreated to one core planet, and might be there today, still technologicaly advanced, but afraid to leave their local area. Suppose that Sara's APHOS retreated to there? Or that the Megaroad-01 found it, and hence the lack of communication since (the Protoculture don't really want to be found)?

Actually, much of this is covered by Macross 7, as well as clues given by Exedor in episodes such as Satan's dolls. The war with the Protodevelin caused the Protoculture to lift the restraints against the Zentradi in not attacking Protoculture citizens (as the Supervision Army was comprised of them). After the war, when the Protodevelin were successfully sealed away, the Protoculture tried to reclaim the Zentradi into their society (i.e. "culture" them). The Zentradi saw this as a threat, and also turned their guns on surviving Protoculture worlds (colony & otherwise). This is also comfirmed by various dialogue from Bodolza during the TV series (as being the reason why he directly saw Earth as a threat, since the Zentradi had come across similar threats before). So in the end, it was the Zentradi which caused the near extinction of the Protoculture, as their enemy wasn't just the supervision army. As for the ship that was seen, I believe it was supposed to be the same modal SA ship that the ASS-1 was, no signs of life were detected, and it mysteriously dissapeared from the area it was found.

While there may well be Protoculture left (since there can be one set of Protoclutre ruins, there can easily be more), they've never played any more active role than they did in 7, i.e. dispensing info & trying to capture Gabil. They may be at the center of the galaxy with the AFOS, they may not be. But it would make a great series/movie if they popped up to whipe out life they created because they believed them to be too "warlike"

Now, look at all of that in light of the fact that humankind did not develop interstellar travel on its own, but rather by reverse engineering technology gleended from the wreck of a Protoculture ship that crashed on earth by chance, and further developed after mixing technology with the Zentraedi.

Even then, the fact remains that they had the technology & know-how to properly reverse engineer it. It's not like a band of cavemen hit a button & found themselves in space. The fact that they can understand & control the technology is all that matters.

Also consider that, now armed with fold technology and setting off to colonize other worlds, that humankind hasn't really left war behind. The Megaroads and the the Macross City ships were part of larger fleets that contained numerous warships. Macross Zero and the canon story in Macross VF-X2 show that humans are still very inclined to fight amongst themselves, and although the aliens in SDF Macross and Macross 7 were the aggressors, how long before the UN starts hostilely invading planets it wants to colonize? How will Protoculture remnants or other APHOS react to humankind sending warships throughout the galaxy?

That's the question isn't it? That's likely why the AFOS retreated back to watch for a more definative answer. While humanity isn't spreading out through the galaxy to dominate it, and are indeed trying to maintain life by perpetuating it as far as they can, they are still using weapons & fighting among themselves. The fact that things aren't so cut & dry may be why any Protoculture out there are remaining so quiet. Though I'm sure helping the Protodevelin to evolve into a non-agressive state won some points, something the Protoculture weren't even able to do.

As the UN colonizes space, will they make the same mistakes the Protoculture did when they were creating their Stellar Republic? (Remember, the Zentraedi weren't created to be frontline grunts in the war between the Stellar Republic and the Supervision Army... they were created to be shock troops when a planet resisted colonization by the Stellar Republic).

Where did you hear that?

PC 2500s

The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]

PC 2700s

Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation).

PC 2800s

Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.

PC 2860

Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.

Combine that with further info given in 7 that two distinct bodies alwasys existed within the Protoculture, and you can determine that the Zentradi were always used in some way or shape to fight between those two factions, it just blew up when they officially went to war. Never is it said the Zentradi were created to beat down some colonizing planet that wouldn't bend. Nor is it said that the Protoculture were ever that warlike.

All-in-all, there's a lot of ground left to be covered in the Macross franchise.

Not so much, as a a suprisingly large amount of it was covered in 7, as well as the latter half of the original series. Edited November 2, 2004 by Keith

[ewilen]

Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

I got yer "superdimensional organ" right here!

(I don't know how A1 missed that opportunity...)

[ewilen]

Hmm...I still don't think the Zentradi were made to fight each other in the PC civil wars. They may have been used that way, but the timeline itself implies they were weapons from the beginning. Do you remember the episode on which you're basing the claim that the PC factions predate the Zents?

Aside from that, though, I agree with your account of the fall of the PC. Also with your interpretation of the Birdman's question (I forget exactly how it was phrased).

The wrecked SA ship looks somewhat like the Macross, but there are details in the lineart (from Macross Perfect Memory) which don't quite match up. IIRC, the engines are arranged differently.

I'm pretty sure the blood tests show that only Sara and Mao have a unique blood type, not the other islanders. That's why the AFOS's blood had to be used for Mao's transfusion. Mao's swimming ability doesn't seem all that special. Pearl divers develop the same ability. We know from anthropological and historical evidence that real events get embellished into myths over centuries of oral transmission. IMO, the bird/fish story is a mythologized retelling of the PC's intervention in human evolution, and there's no reason to believe Sara, Mao, or anyone else evolved directly from fishes.

Like you, I'm wondering what evidence there is for the Birdman being an instrument of intervening in evolution, as opposed to just a sentry. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

I do think the Birdman folded out under Sara's control, not as a failsafe, even though Shin seems to think she died. But it also looks like it suffered at least superficial damage from the missiles.

[Keith]

The episode telling about the PC factions was 30 something of Macross 7, "Mystery of the ruins?" It's what Exedor read off of the Protoculture glyphs while entering the temple/trap. And are pearl divers able to breath air into others while deep underwater??? Perhaps so, but I know I'd freak out if I ever saw someone swim that well, and for so long, with no aid whatsoever.

As for the Nome family, considering the size of the island, they would have had to have mated with others on the island & interbred over the thousands of years they were there, it's just nature. Perhaps Sara & Mao were the most "pure" or "direct," but I highly doubt there weren't other descendants on that island. Maybe due to the blood connection with the AFOS, only 1 or so can be "activated" at a time. As for Shin, while he may have thought Sara lost, there's no reason for him to believe she was dead. Especailly since for all intents, she came back for him & brought him with her.

Maybe the remnants of the Protoculture have evolved since they dissapeared....

Edited November 2, 2004 by Keith

[Renato]

Hey there. I have been gone for four or five days or so and this page has grown way too much for me to trace the Protoculture topic, so I'm just gonna go onto something else for a while.

I kept meaning to see what the Japanese fans thought of volume 5, and I just came back from looking at the Official Japanese BBS (yeah, that piece of crap... You'd think that at least in an official site they'd use a proper forum or something, but no..).

Anyway, man, has that place changed or is it just me? Everyone is usually ridiculously polite to each other but at the moment there is constant bickering about something to do with the recent Niigata earthquakes, I dunno what was said since the original post has long since been deleted, but the bitching level is extraordinarily high for that kind of board.

Apart from that, opinions on ZERO FIVE seem to be the same as over here-- some people love it, it's the best thing EVARR, and some people are going like "Was that it?? Huh." Many agree that the characters who died were not fleshed out enough in the run-up to the climax to care about, while other cried tears of happiness (apparently).

Plus the odd "Wow, this is great, lots of Macross fans here. Really feels like the official homepage, huh".

Well, that's all from Macross Land Japan.

(I'll say it again, but that board SUCKS. The reason we have hardly any Japanese members here on MW is that few can be bothered to type in or read English. Long ago there were pleas from MW members for a Spanish forum. I don't see the point of that, but it might be an idea to open up a Japanese forum and see how that goes, bring some of those people over. I might post this in the suggestion forum. Realistically speaking, it may not work, but could be worth a try.)

[RichterX]

Is it me or does the AFOS resemble the Protodevilns alot? Both in looks and capabilities. It seems then that the Protoculture employed techno-organic weapon platforms (which the Protodevilns were). Perhaps the only difference between the AFOS and the Protodevilns was the super dimensional organ?

vinnie

It shouldn't come as any surprise that the Protodevlin (primarily, Glavil) and the AFOS resemble each other: they both have the same creator, Kawamori.

• both are humongous
  
• both are capable of flight
  
• both are nearly indestructible
  
• both are capable or projecting powerful bio-organic blasts of energy
  
• both are capable of interstellar travel
  
• both are capable of speech
  
• both are, apparently, immortal
  
• both are just plain freaky looking
  

Actually not Kawamori, but Miyatake.

By the way, did his Design Works book ever come out in the end, or was it just shelved?

Does that mean Agent One is also a creation of Miyatake??

The description also fits him

[Prime]

Just to throw my opinion onto the pile...

I haven't actually watched ep 5 yet. I decided to watch the whole series from the beginning so that everything is fresh in my mind for number 5. I've only gotten through the first two episodes this time around, but I have enjoyed them a lot more than the first time. I had initially felt that it dragged quite a bit, but now it seems to flow much better.

For me at least, I feel it fits in very well with the other Macross series. I like Macross much more for the mechanical designs, characters, and war themes than the "spiritual/magical" stuff. As a result I much prefer the original seris, DYRL, and Plus over M7. But Zero provides a nice balance between the two extremes and ties everything together well. I'll see how I feel after I finish the other episodes.

One thing that struck me is how much knowledge the UN had about the Protoculture before the Zentradi ever arrived. As a result, I can see why the Council was reluctant to acknowledge Global's and Misa's findings regarding the connection between the Zentradi and Humans. Presumably they feared that eventually the truth would come out about just how much they knew.

Does that make sense? Perhaps it is common knowledge, but I haven't seen the original series in its entirety (apart from Robotech). Or am I way off base?