Star Trek: Starfleet Academy

[Knight26]

58 minutes ago, tekering said:

Guinan is El-Aurian, as was Dr. Soran... and there was a guy in an episode of DS9, as I recall. 🤔

I don't know what a "Lanthenite" is, as I haven't seen Strange New Worlds. 🤨

My bad, I thought they were the same, got the "immortalish human" races confused.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

My bad, I thought they were the same, got the "immortalish human" races confused.

Completely reasonable confusion.

After all, the Lanthanites and El-Aurians are both sharing the hat "nearly immortal Human Aliens who have lived among Humans throughout history without revealing their presence".  They definitely have different aesthetics, though.  The El-Aurians tend to be confident, dignified, and serene and their reputation as listeners and advisers who give sage counsel from their centuries or millennia of life experience is such a meme even in-universe that Mariner disgustedly remarks that a 30 year old El-Aurian is "just a regular person".  The Lanthanites we've seen (all two of them) seem to be the polar opposite.  They're irresponsible, unprofessional, seemingly ill-equipped to deal with their own long lifespans, and tend to give off a sort of elderly ex-hippie vibe.

 

7 hours ago, Knight26 said:

But here is the thing, Pelia is a goofball not because she is a Lanthenite, but because she is played by CAROL FREAKING KANE.  She works great as a comedic character because Carol Kane is a comedian.  Holly Hunter is not; she is a serious dramatic actress (for the most part), so her acting as this goofball character feels beyond forced.  Given that she is a near-immortal instructor/captain, I would expect her character to be played more as a burnt-out retiree who was called back to service and who is sick of all the cadets' BS.

This is completely spot-on, though.

[Knight26]

59 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is completely spot-on, though.

Hence my confusion, I thought Pelia worked as a member of Guinan's race as just a one off goofball, honestly, it would have made the character better, and in my head canon Lanthanites are an offshoot of El-Aurians.  But still, Holly Hunter should be playing a more serious character, maybe a burnout, but not the goofball hippie, she is, after all, not Carol Kane, who is a freaking treasure.

[Thom]

Just watched episode one, and I was expecting not to like it. Turns out, I did... Yes, there were some goofy moments. but for the most part I think it was fine. Some editing goofs, like Ake ordering all shields front when the enemy was behind them, but that was gone so quick it hardly mattered. The dialogue was alight too. Not Shakespear of course, but Disco-level either. Still not liking much of the sets, esp the lighting on the bridge and the way pulses so distractedly.

I am liking Holly Hunter as Ake. I did like when she was talking with Braka and she just casually draped herself over the Captain seat to keep him from sitting in it. Also Sandro Rosta as Caleb Mir. Most of the cast are okay, though I hope the one playing the hologram cadet tones it down a bit.

Didn't see episode two yet, so I'll see how it goes from there, but for the first episode, there have far worse.

[Thom]

Just now, Knight26 said:

But still, Holly Hunter should be playing a more serious character, maybe a burnout, but not the goofball hippie, she is, after all, not Carol Kane, who is a freaking treasure.

At four hundred years old, you're either going to be insane or almost Spock-like, or a laid back hippy-type who has seen most of everything. 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Hence my confusion, I thought Pelia worked as a member of Guinan's race as just a one off goofball, honestly, it would have made the character better, and in my head canon Lanthanites are an offshoot of El-Aurians.  But still, Holly Hunter should be playing a more serious character, maybe a burnout, but not the goofball hippie, she is, after all, not Carol Kane, who is a freaking treasure.

That's not a bad headcanon.  I like that. 

Especially since the Lanthanite name is derived from the Greek λανθάνειν (Lanthanein, "to lie hidden"), referencing how they've existed hidden among Humanity on Earth for many thousands of years (allegedly).  There were El-Aurians at least visiting Earth in 1893, and it wouldn't be surprising if there were some that decided to stay there permanently in years past.

IMO, the main problem with how Holly Hunter's character is written is that Star Trek audiences are used to a certain level of professionalism from Starfleet officers and that's almost totally missing from her character.  Pelia can kind of get away with it because she's one of the minor secondary characters on SNW and she's mainly there to be comic relief.  Nahla Ake's overly casual attitude definitely feels out of place for someone who's supposed to be running the most exclusive and demanding educational facility in the Federation.

Also, since Starfleet Academy is a service academy... shouldn't her title be Superintendent not Chancellor?  In past series (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.), the head of the academy had the title of Superintendent.  (Such as Rear Admiral Brand in TNG.)

Edit: Come to think of it, isn't her rank a little low for that job too? The superintendent of Starfleet Academy is usually an admiral.

 

7 hours ago, Thom said:

At four hundred years old, you're either going to be insane or almost Spock-like, or a laid back hippy-type who has seen most of everything. 

Depends on the species and culture, I suppose... the El-Aurians live practically forever and they seem pretty well-balanced throughout.

There's a running theme with the two exemplar Lanthenites we have that they both seem ill-equipped to handle their incredibly long lifespans.  Pelia's a little unhinged because she's constantly bored and thrill-seeking.  Nahla definitely has a lot of unprocessed trauma that's leading her to blow things way out of proportion, like the whole Caleb business.

Edited January 22 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

Okie-dokie, we got a new episode... "Vitus Reflex".  

Also in Academy relevant news, apparently Kurtzman is personally directing the season two finale (since this series got renewed before it ever aired in Paramount's usual "set huge piles of money on fire and hope it finds an audience" approach.

 

The episode opens on Cadet Reymi recording a personal message for his parents after about three weeks of classes at the Starfleet Academy San Francisco campus.  It seems that his parents hold him to absurdly high standards?  Apparently they made him promise to be last to sleep and first to wake up?  Seems like he's being set up to be Well Done Son guy.

I am, I must admit, obscurely pleased that the old tradition persists... light-up props that absolutely DO NOT need to light up in order to be "futuristic".  Cadet Reymi's workout earbuds and jump rope have bright green LED illumination.  Kinda gross that he's cracking raw quail eggs into his post-workout creatine tho.  It is bizarrely disappointing in retrospect that they didn't make the Academy's actual gymnasium look more futuristic.  It looks like a completely ordinary school gymnasium right out of the 1990s.  The banners are fun though... the War College sports teams are the fighting Mugatos.  Apparently the Starfleet Academy mascot is the Lapling, an endangered species known for being harmless.

Spoiler

Given that we've already kind of established that Starfleet Academy isn't military basic training, what exactly is the point of Lura Thok being Drill Sergeant Nasty?  Her obsession with being a warrior definitely makes her feel like a better fit for the War College.

 

OK, so apparently all of this is in favor of doing a sports episode centered around the rivalry between Starfleet Academy and the Federation War College?  Not gonna lie that does not feel like a great starting point for an episode given how forced the whole thing feels.  It's less actual "rival schools" and more Dodgeball: a True Underdog Story level banter.  It's trying really hard to be funny and it's not really sticking the landing.

Spoiler

A rivalry that escalates almost immediately to a potentially lethal prank where the War College beams the Starfleet Academy cadets out of the coed locker room and into various places around the Academy including the temporal mechanics classroom (Caleb), one of the water features in the lobby (with one cadet materializing UNDERWATER), the top of the large staircase (leading to a cadet falling all the way down said staircase), and 6-10 feet off the floor in the cafeteria.

For some reason, this is apparently allowed to slide and even Drill Sergeant Nasty seems to think that nothing can prevent this from escalating like discipline isn't literally her entire job.  Captain Ake also acts like this somehow is not her problem and seems willing to allow the prank war to escalate even at the risk of Starfleet Academy getting shut down for doing a subpar job.  Apparently despite only being open for three weeks there are already people lobbying the government to shut the Academy down, including Commander Kelrec, the head of the War College.

Colbert as the computer voice Dean of Students really was not a wise decision since he seems to exist solely to dispense mildly cringeworthy dad jokes... and even the characters in-series are starting to notice.  Captain Ake asks if the voiceover for what's apparently a Starfleet Academy promotional video (that looks like it was cut together in 20 minutes) is "too stupid".  (Colbert's only role seems to be to interject with what's supposed to be funny dialog anytime the writers think the series has gone too long without someone saying some funny line... it's pretty insipid.)

 

 

OK, real talk time for a second.  Did Quentin Tarantino script this?  Because the amount of time spent getting Holly Hunter's bare feet into frame is beyond the point where I can write it off as accidental.  We're into "probably someone's fetish" territory.  (A point I feel is supported by the fact that the conversation veers into a literal discussion of fetishes shortly thereafter.)

 

 

There's a shot where the cadets are discussing the prank war in what I guess is supposed to be a botany lab, but the room has an obviously green-screened background that looks less like a botany lab and more like a video game subway tunnel from about 15 years ago?

Spoiler

Apparently the solution to this prank war is to plant flowers that look like plastic toys and mimic words like a trained parrot.

Yeah, their solution is to introduce an invasive species to the academy grounds to annoy the War College.  I feel like that might be problematic on a lot of levels.

Finally Caleb says something that makes me like him.  He doesn't want to engage with the tribalist attitude surrounding the prank war or team sports.  

Sadly, the series undermines that and some earlier respect shown to Kraag when his decision to abstain was respected by depicting the rest of the cadet class as braindead idiots who are too clumsy, too busy flirting, or so dumb they're literally attempting to eat the potting soil.  I really feel badly for Kerrice Brooks because the character she's playing WILL draw a lot of criticism for being a very unkind depiction of autism that's closer to a cognitive deficit.  

 

Apparently Calica is a game-ified combat simulation "sport" that is essentially a Serious Business version of laser tag.  Enough so that a direct comparison is drawn by SAM.

Spoiler

The Calica tryouts look more like a warzone.  It's dark, it's smoky, everything is on fire and things are periodically exploding.  Getting shot doesn't just score the other team a point, it removes the hit player from the game for the duration of the round via transporter.

Seems less like an actual sport and more like a way to give the cadets PTSD.

Also, SAM seems to have an unfair advantage in that she can make herself selectively permeable to phaser fire... 

The Betazoid president's son does so poorly he's appointed to wear the "Lappy" mascot costume, and it comes down to a contest between the two tryhards to become team captain.  Reymi has to pull a dick move to get made team captain.  They immediately get trolled by the War College with footage of them stumbling around the arena like an inept pack of idiots.

Apparently the War College has actual working security with restricted access.  Kelrec even takes a shot at Ake for the swiss cheese security at the Academy.  (Thok was not kidding about Kelrec's obsession with tea bordering on a fetish.) 

As soon as I wrote that, the showrunner started channeling the spirit of Quentin Tarantino again with Holly Hunter needing to get her bare feet in frame.  Someone on this show has a foot fetish.  It's really REALLY blatant.

 

Apparently they didn't have enough of a budget to redress the gymnasium or construct a proper set for the Calica field, so the Calica match is taking place inside the Academy's atrium which has been relit in red and blue.  

 

Spoiler

Starfleet Academy's team do a predictably awful job and suffer a humiliating defeat in their first match because none of them are working together and even the ones who claim to have been captains of teams as kids can seem to hit anything from only a few feet away.  Oddly, they also don't seem to be familiar with the rules.  

For some reason, the training phasers that have Only One Setting (a non-injurious "transport" setting) are able to destroy the atrium's replicators?

The War College also makes a fair point that SAM's ability to make herself permeable to phaser fire is probably cheating... but the Academy team invokes the Air Bud clause that there's no rule specifically against it therefore it's allowed.

The match ends up being cancelled for some reason they don't bother to mention right as Reymi is rage-quitting.

 

So Lura and Reno are a thing?  Weird relationship dynamic, but whatever.  It honestly makes more sense than the Dax/Worf one with the free spirit and stick in the mud.  This is two extremely cantankerous women with sharp tongues.  Talk about a pairing with Statler and Waldorf energy.

Spoiler

OK, so the Calica match was not authorized?  How did they lock off and redecorate the Atrium without anyone noticing?  

The Unspoken Plan Guarantee isn't being invoked here, so something will go off the rails.

Spoiler

Caleb and Tarima have a moment, and that's where the plan goes off the rails since she trips the intruder alert.  Caleb and Reymi just beam out, because apparently that was an option the entire time.

The first actual laugh the series got out of me was how exaggeratedly casual the cadets look watching the absolute havoc unfold at the War College across the quad.

Spoiler

Rather than grow the cute little talking flowers we saw earlier, they've created a monstrous talking kudzu tentacle monster that overtakes the entire War College dormitory in a matter of just a few minutes and can't be removed because it's a protected species.

 

Captain Ake's office has a bunch of model starships scattered about including a refit Excelsior-class (Enterprise-B-type), Oberth-class, NX-class, Defiant-class, Intrepid-class, Galaxy-class, and one or two others too small to identify properly.

AND AGAIN WITH THE FEET.  I need an old priest and a young priest.  We need to cast the ghost of Tarantino out of this series!

 

 

Creepy and intrusive foot fetish aside, this series appears to be slowly improving.  Holly Hunter's character is still an eyesore and the writers are still treating the academy more like a Buffy the Vampire Slayer-era high school than the incredibly exclusive university or post-graduate education it's supposed to be, and its humor is way too contemporary to not feel immediately dated, but graduating from offensively bad to indifference-inducingly mediocre is a hell of an improvement.  If they ditch the dad jokes and maybe start treating these 20-something year old cadets like adults instead of braindead children who need to be told not to eat dirt it could actually be... dare I say... good.

[pengbuzz]

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Okie-dokie, we got a new episode... "Vitus Reflex".  

Also in Academy relevant news, apparently Kurtzman is personally directing the season two finale (since this series got renewed before it ever aired in Paramount's usual "set huge piles of money on fire and hope it finds an audience" approach.

 

The episode opens on Cadet Reymi recording a personal message for his parents after about three weeks of classes at the Starfleet Academy San Francisco campus.  It seems that his parents hold him to absurdly high standards?  Apparently they made him promise to be last to sleep and first to wake up?  Seems like he's being set up to be Well Done Son guy.

I am, I must admit, obscurely pleased that the old tradition persists... light-up props that absolutely DO NOT need to light up in order to be "futuristic".  Cadet Reymi's workout earbuds and jump rope have bright green LED illumination.  Kinda gross that he's cracking raw quail eggs into his post-workout creatine tho.  It is bizarrely disappointing in retrospect that they didn't make the Academy's actual gymnasium look more futuristic.  It looks like a completely ordinary school gymnasium right out of the 1990s.  The banners are fun though... the War College sports teams are the fighting Mugatos.  Apparently the Starfleet Academy mascot is the Lapling, an endangered species known for being harmless.

  Hide contents

Given that we've already kind of established that Starfleet Academy isn't military basic training, what exactly is the point of Lura Thok being Drill Sergeant Nasty?  Her obsession with being a warrior definitely makes her feel like a better fit for the War College.

 

OK, so apparently all of this is in favor of doing a sports episode centered around the rivalry between Starfleet Academy and the Federation War College?  Not gonna lie that does not feel like a great starting point for an episode given how forced the whole thing feels.  It's less actual "rival schools" and more Dodgeball: a True Underdog Story level banter.  It's trying really hard to be funny and it's not really sticking the landing.

  Hide contents

A rivalry that escalates almost immediately to a potentially lethal prank where the War College beams the Starfleet Academy cadets out of the coed locker room and into various places around the Academy including the temporal mechanics classroom (Caleb), one of the water features in the lobby (with one cadet materializing UNDERWATER), the top of the large staircase (leading to a cadet falling all the way down said staircase), and 6-10 feet off the floor in the cafeteria.

For some reason, this is apparently allowed to slide and even Drill Sergeant Nasty seems to think that nothing can prevent this from escalating like discipline isn't literally her entire job.  Captain Ake also acts like this somehow is not her problem and seems willing to allow the prank war to escalate even at the risk of Starfleet Academy getting shut down for doing a subpar job.  Apparently despite only being open for three weeks there are already people lobbying the government to shut the Academy down, including Commander Kelrec, the head of the War College.

Colbert as the computer voice Dean of Students really was not a wise decision since he seems to exist solely to dispense mildly cringeworthy dad jokes... and even the characters in-series are starting to notice.  Captain Ake asks if the voiceover for what's apparently a Starfleet Academy promotional video (that looks like it was cut together in 20 minutes) is "too stupid".  (Colbert's only role seems to be to interject with what's supposed to be funny dialog anytime the writers think the series has gone too long without someone saying some funny line... it's pretty insipid.)

 

 

OK, real talk time for a second.  Did Quentin Tarantino script this?  Because the amount of time spent getting Holly Hunter's bare feet into frame is beyond the point where I can write it off as accidental.  We're into "probably someone's fetish" territory.  (A point I feel is supported by the fact that the conversation veers into a literal discussion of fetishes shortly thereafter.)

 

 

There's a shot where the cadets are discussing the prank war in what I guess is supposed to be a botany lab, but the room has an obviously green-screened background that looks less like a botany lab and more like a video game subway tunnel from about 15 years ago?

  Hide contents

Apparently the solution to this prank war is to plant flowers that look like plastic toys and mimic words like a trained parrot.

Yeah, their solution is to introduce an invasive species to the academy grounds to annoy the War College.  I feel like that might be problematic on a lot of levels.

Finally Caleb says something that makes me like him.  He doesn't want to engage with the tribalist attitude surrounding the prank war or team sports.  

Sadly, the series undermines that and some earlier respect shown to Kraag when his decision to abstain was respected by depicting the rest of the cadet class as braindead idiots who are too clumsy, too busy flirting, or so dumb they're literally attempting to eat the potting soil.  I really feel badly for Kerrice Brooks because the character she's playing WILL draw a lot of criticism for being a very unkind depiction of autism that's closer to a cognitive deficit.  

 

Apparently Calica is a game-ified combat simulation "sport" that is essentially a Serious Business version of laser tag.  Enough so that a direct comparison is drawn by SAM.

  Hide contents

The Calica tryouts look more like a warzone.  It's dark, it's smoky, everything is on fire and things are periodically exploding.  Getting shot doesn't just score the other team a point, it removes the hit player from the game for the duration of the round via transporter.

Seems less like an actual sport and more like a way to give the cadets PTSD.

Also, SAM seems to have an unfair advantage in that she can make herself selectively permeable to phaser fire... 

The Betazoid president's son does so poorly he's appointed to wear the "Lappy" mascot costume, and it comes down to a contest between the two tryhards to become team captain.  Reymi has to pull a dick move to get made team captain.  They immediately get trolled by the War College with footage of them stumbling around the arena like an inept pack of idiots.

Apparently the War College has actual working security with restricted access.  Kelrec even takes a shot at Ake for the swiss cheese security at the Academy.  (Thok was not kidding about Kelrec's obsession with tea bordering on a fetish.) 

As soon as I wrote that, the showrunner started channeling the spirit of Quentin Tarantino again with Holly Hunter needing to get her bare feet in frame.  Someone on this show has a foot fetish.  It's really REALLY blatant.

 

Apparently they didn't have enough of a budget to redress the gymnasium or construct a proper set for the Calica field, so the Calica match is taking place inside the Academy's atrium which has been relit in red and blue.  

 

  Hide contents

Starfleet Academy's team do a predictably awful job and suffer a humiliating defeat in their first match because none of them are working together and even the ones who claim to have been captains of teams as kids can seem to hit anything from only a few feet away.  Oddly, they also don't seem to be familiar with the rules.  

For some reason, the training phasers that have Only One Setting (a non-injurious "transport" setting) are able to destroy the atrium's replicators?

The War College also makes a fair point that SAM's ability to make herself permeable to phaser fire is probably cheating... but the Academy team invokes the Air Bud clause that there's no rule specifically against it therefore it's allowed.

The match ends up being cancelled for some reason they don't bother to mention right as Reymi is rage-quitting.

 

So Lura and Reno are a thing?  Weird relationship dynamic, but whatever.  It honestly makes more sense than the Dax/Worf one with the free spirit and stick in the mud.  This is two extremely cantankerous women with sharp tongues.  Talk about a pairing with Statler and Waldorf energy.

  Hide contents

OK, so the Calica match was not authorized?  How did they lock off and redecorate the Atrium without anyone noticing?  

The Unspoken Plan Guarantee isn't being invoked here, so something will go off the rails.

  Hide contents

Caleb and Tarima have a moment, and that's where the plan goes off the rails since she trips the intruder alert.  Caleb and Reymi just beam out, because apparently that was an option the entire time.

The first actual laugh the series got out of me was how exaggeratedly casual the cadets look watching the absolute havoc unfold at the War College across the quad.

  Hide contents

Rather than grow the cute little talking flowers we saw earlier, they've created a monstrous talking kudzu tentacle monster that overtakes the entire War College dormitory in a matter of just a few minutes and can't be removed because it's a protected species.

 

Captain Ake's office has a bunch of model starships scattered about including a refit Excelsior-class (Enterprise-B-type), Oberth-class, NX-class, Defiant-class, Intrepid-class, Galaxy-class, and one or two others too small to identify properly.

AND AGAIN WITH THE FEET.  I need an old priest and a young priest.  We need to cast the ghost of Tarantino out of this series!

 

 

Creepy and intrusive foot fetish aside, this series appears to be slowly improving.  Holly Hunter's character is still an eyesore and the writers are still treating the academy more like a Buffy the Vampire Slayer-era high school than the incredibly exclusive university or post-graduate education it's supposed to be, and its humor is way too contemporary to not feel immediately dated, but graduating from offensively bad to indifference-inducingly mediocre is a hell of an improvement.  If they ditch the dad jokes and maybe start treating these 20-something year old cadets like adults instead of braindead children who need to be told not to eat dirt it could actually be... dare I say... good.

What bothers me here is that Starfleet has a "war college". I thought they were peaceful explorers?

Seriously though: they could have named it "strategic college", or "planning" something or another. "War"? Erm, not something the Federations starts...

Edited Saturday at 10:12 PM by pengbuzz

[Roy Focker]

I'm surprised the latest episode did end before it even began with charges of assault being placed on the war colleges cadets. I assume that it is illegal to transport someone against their consent. What if besides being transported to an embarrassing location one of the freshly showered cadets slipped and impaled themselves after transport?

The show is just stupid and annoying. I thought strange new worlds was pushing it with the comedy. Academy follows many of the tropes about school comedies. Where there's some misfits trying to make it with some stuffy squares trying to stop them. But this show doesn't have any stuff squares to act as a comedic foil. Every character is the quirky misfit. This is Seinfeld if every character written as if they are all Kramer.

Imagine if Holly Hunter's character wasn't the school's dean, but an unconventional substitute teacher assigned to a class of misfits all on the verge of failure. All the other teachers, coaches and students are played serious. You've seen this countless of times because it works. Instead, everyone is a misfit. Even the characters from the rival school are misfits. The show needs some serious characters to react to the quirky antics of these misfits.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

What bothers me here is that Starfleet has a "war college". I thought they were peaceful explorers?

Seriously though: they could have named it "strategic college", or "planning" something or another. "War"? Erm, not something the Federations starts...

... actually, now that I think on it, there's more wrong with it than that.

You see, a Service Academy and a War College are NOT two different names for the same thing and the War College in Starfleet Academy isn't a war college. 🤔

A Service Academy is an educational institution that takes in new recruits as officer cadets and provides them with the necessary education and training for future commissioning into the academy's branch of service as a junior officer.  Many also provide students with a university-level education ending in a bachelor's degree.

A War College is a higher educational institution that trains experienced senior officers (like Major/Lt. Commander and up)for promotion to senior command and flag officer ranks.  It offers Master's degree level qualifications.  

The War College in Starfleet Academy is presented as a rival service academy to Starfleet Academy, training classes of officer cadets... so it's not actually a war college at all.  If it were, its students would be people like Lura Thok or Commander Kelrec.  Lt. Commanders and up with a decade or so of service in the officer corps being trained for further promotion to Commander, Captain, and the Admiralty.  

 

The implication behind the War College appears to be that the Federation decided to change the curriculum for future Starfleet officers after the Burn led to the Federation's collapse and forced Starfleet to switch from focusing on exploration to focusing on defense.  Why they felt the need to create a whole separate institution for that is a mystery.  You'd think it would be simplest to change the curriculum at the already well-established Starfleet Academy with its dozens of campuses and call it a day.

The implication behind that implication seems to be that the showrunners would like us to think of Starfleet Academy as a gentle rebuke of Discovery-era Star Trek's overly militant mindset with Starfleet and Star Trek once again shifting back towards space exploration and diplomacy.  I'd guess the intended arc is that the War College is going to continue to be this wrongheaded, paranoid, aggressive antagonist until it's ultimately dissolved in favor of the Starfleet Academy training program.

[Dynaman]

I'm thinking your overthinking it.  Some writer heard the term War College, thought it meant college, and threw it in.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I'm thinking your overthinking it.  Some writer heard the term War College, thought it meant college, and threw it in.

No, I'm not overthinking it.  I just explained why that real world term they obviously did not bother to look up before using it in the story is wrong. 😉

Then I did a little bit of theorizing about what narrative purpose this never-before-seen-or-mentioned second Starfleet service academy is meant to serve.

Spoiler

The only prior mention of a Starfleet War College is the old (and non-canon) Star Trek Role-Playing Game by FASA in the 1980s.

A sourcebook released for Star Trek IV and a few adventure modules make passing mention of a Starfleet War College, but it was described as an actual War College meant to train senior officers on strategic planning.

The only canonical mention of a War College prior to Starfleet Academy was the Romulan Imperial War College attended by senior officers in the Romulan military and Tal Shiar intelligence service. (TNG "Face of the Enemy")

There were a few other mentions of non-canonical War Colleges in games (e.g. the Andorian War College) or the Pocket Books Star Trek novels (the Turn War College on Qo'nos), and a MACO War College in Credenhill (resumably former RAF Credenhill, now Stirling Lines) on pre-Federation Earth in the Star Trek Relaunch novelverse.

 

Back before the Kurtzman years, Star Trek used to have a fairly robust research team whose job it was to prevent issues like that by checking terminology, making sure that science in the series aligned to real world science as much as possible, etc.  Their absence is keenly felt in this new Trek era.

[Dynaman]

4 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I'm thinking your overthinking it.  Some writer heard the term War College, thought it meant college, and threw it in.

Then you should not have put in this paragraph in your previous response.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The implication behind the War College appears to be that the Federation decided to change the curriculum for future Starfleet officers after the Burn led to the Federation's collapse and forced Starfleet to switch from focusing on exploration to focusing on defense.  Why they felt the need to create a whole separate institution for that is a mystery.  You'd think it would be simplest to change the curriculum at the already well-established Starfleet Academy with its dozens of campuses and call it a day.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Then you should not have put in this paragraph in your previous response.

Maybe you might want to read a bit more carefully?

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Then I did a little bit of theorizing about what narrative purpose this never-before-seen-or-mentioned second Starfleet service academy is meant to serve.

After all, the question being answered was "Why have something as off-brand for Starfleet as a War College?"

[Dynaman]

I had a philosophy professor who told us to try to prove to him a door was not alive, it was an interesting lesson on when to leave a conversation topic alone...

[tekering]

I seem to recall discussion a few years back about incorporating Discovery (and thus its spinoffs Strange New Worlds and Starfleet Academy) into the Kelvin timeline, both as a means of addressing inconsistencies in canon (Spock's adopted sister?), technological anachronisms (interactive hologrammatic communications, for example), and cosmetic differences (like the Klingon redesigns).  

At the very least, Eaglemoss ran with that when it came to classifying Discovery miniatures...

However, given the continuity nods to Prodigy, the appearance of the Klingon character, and that Robert Picardo seems to be reprising his role from Voyager, I suppose Starfleet Academy is definitively part of the Prime timeline...? 🤨

 

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I had a philosophy professor who told us to try to prove to him a door was not alive, it was an interesting lesson on when to leave a conversation topic alone...

Well, I'm the one who asked, and I'm satisfied with Seto's answer:

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

After all, the question being answered was "Why have something as off-brand for Starfleet as a War College?"

I felt a "war college" wasn't something Starfleet would have had; Seto explained the concept of war college for me so I understand that a bit better now. And I agree with him that it wouldn't be a rival to the Academy, and that Kurtzman is trying to set up more drama for the story (in a rather ham-fisted way IMO).

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, tekering said:

I seem to recall discussion a few years back about incorporating Discovery (and thus its spinoffs Strange New Worlds and Starfleet Academy) into the Kelvin timeline, both as a means of addressing inconsistencies in canon (Spock's adopted sister?), technological anachronisms (interactive hologrammatic communications, for example), and cosmetic differences (like the Klingon redesigns).  

At the very least, Eaglemoss ran with that when it came to classifying Discovery miniatures...

However, given the continuity nods to Prodigy, the appearance of the Klingon character, and that Robert Picardo seems to be reprising his role from Voyager, I suppose Starfleet Academy is definitively part of the Prime timeline...? 🤨

Officially, all of the NuTrek shows are within the Prime timeline... that includes Discovery, Picard, Strange New Worlds, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Section 31, and now Starfleet Academy.

From Discovery S2 onward, the showrunners have been backpedaling and drafting excuses/explanations for various anachronisms or inconsistencies.  The Discovery S1 Klingon makeup is being treated like a cosmetic inconsistency the same way it was when Klingon makeup evolved in TMP and TNG and a subject for in-jokes (as in LDS).  Spock and the unmentioned sister problem is being handled via the Sybok clause.  Other inconsistencies were handwaved, like the holo-communicator being a "trendy" bit of tech that Starfleet experimented with on and off and never really worked right until the far future.  The bridge windows are being treated mostly as a 23rd century design fad that fell out of fashion later on.  etc. etc.

I know some fans consider the far future parts of Discovery and so on to be a Bad Future timeline.

EDIT:

Spoiler

In hindsight, SNW kind of solved the holo-communicator problem in its proto-holodeck episode.  The reason it likely "never worked right" was that it simply required SO MUCH processing power and so much energy that it was stupidly inefficient until technology significantly advanced.

 

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, I'm the one who asked, and I'm satisfied with Seto's answer:

I felt a "war college" wasn't something Starfleet would have had; Seto explained the concept of war college for me so I understand that a bit better now. And I agree with him that it wouldn't be a rival to the Academy, and that Kurtzman is trying to set up more drama for the story (in a rather ham-fisted way IMO).

Star Trek's creators have been beefing over how military Starfleet really is since Star Trek II, where Gene Roddenberry and Nicholas Meyer squared off over the topic at length and to Gene's considerable dissatisfaction.    

(Even Gene himself wasn't always consistent about it.  One of the alien species created to be background characters in Star Trek: the Motion Picture - the Arcturians - are said to be a highly militaristic species who reproduce entirely by cloning and who cheerfully provide billions-strong armies for the Federation in wartime.)

The War College seems to have been introduced in Starfleet Academy to allow the story to tackle the subject of the Federation's militarism in an unusually direct manner.  (In past titles, it was usually the domain of an Insane/Corrupt Admiral or Starfleet officers in wartime reflecting that they did not sign up to be soldiers.)

Edited Monday at 05:04 PM by Seto Kaiba

[Dynaman]

15 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, I'm the one who asked, and I'm satisfied with Seto's answer:

I said you were overthinking it, not that the thoughts are wrong.  A major difference.  You both put more thought into it then the writers.  

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I said you were overthinking it, not that the thoughts are wrong.  A major difference.  You both put more thought into it then the writers.  

I would much rather overthink something than underthink it. That's how we ended up with Discovery and Dave Filoni's take on Star Wars.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I would much rather overthink something than underthink it. That's how we ended up with Discovery and Dave Filoni's take on Star Wars.

Sometimes I really like to under think things. That’s the only way I still have fun watching Jurassic Park sequels these days. Gotta turn the brain off and just enjoy the dinos 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I said you were overthinking it, not that the thoughts are wrong.  A major difference.  You both put more thought into it then the writers.  

About the choice of terminology, certainly... but unlike NuTrek's usual fare, I feel like there's actually some method to their madness on this one even if it's a good deal less clever or subtle than Trek's better-woven Aesops.

The War College wasn't a thing in Star Trek: Discovery or any other prior Star Trek series or movie and it doesn't make a lick of sense in context for Starfleet to have two separate, rival service academies with radically different educational priorities.  That means it was almost certainly created for the series with a specific narrative purpose in mind.  The obvious, ham-fisted, explanation being that the War College is meant as a vehicle for examination and deconstruction of the wildly unpopular decision Discovery, Picard, and Prodigy all made to go and sh*t on everything Star Trek stands for by rewriting the Federation and Starfleet as militaristic isolationists.

At the very least, it suggests someone at Paramount understands why audiences hated Discovery, Picard, and Section 31.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would much rather overthink something than underthink it. That's how we ended up with Discovery and Dave Filoni's take on Star Wars.

... and the Star Trek 2009 reboot trilogy, and Picard, and Section 31.

If you're watching Star Trek and you're not thinking you're either not watching real Star Trek or there's something wrong with you.  This franchise made a name for itself as cerebral sci-fi that taught moral lessons and examined complex social issues through allegorical space adventure.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

Sometimes I really like to under think things. That’s the only way I still have fun watching Jurassic Park sequels these days. Gotta turn the brain off and just enjoy the dinos 

There's nothing wrong with that.  I enjoy watching The Mummy (Brandon Fraser's version) for that very reason!

However, Star Trek is... well, for certain fans like me, it's known as the type of show that I watch to be challenged and use my critical thinking.  (Yes, I stopped watching Nu-Trek after the first Kelvin timeline movie and the 2nd season of Discovery.  On the other hand, I'm currently rewatching the 4th season of Enterprise, and thoroughly enjoying it.)

Edited yesterday at 08:41 AM by sketchley

[Thom]

I just assumed that the whole 'war college' thing is a left-over from when Earth was not part of the Federation, post Burn. In Disco, we saw that Earth had it's own defense force and I'm assuming it is still in existence, in-effect right beside Starfleet, and maybe fodder for future integration back into Starfleet as things progress.

As to the show, the first episode was all right, but these last two were hokey nonsense! My gawd! That's not to say I have a problem with the plot, but just the decision to turn the Academy into basically a futuristic version of Animal House, and not done very well at that. Drop the attempts at comedy and get to the overall story! In fact, this would have been better if these cadets were third or fourth years, giving them more leeway to get away from the frat house um, the Academy.

May give it another episode before deciding to abandon this one. Man, really wish they'd given us another season of Prodigy...

[Dynaman]

19 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would much rather overthink something than underthink it. That's how we ended up with Discovery and Dave Filoni's take on Star Wars.

If the WRITERS would overthink things it would be better.  WE can think all we want but it won't change anything till the writers do.

[pengbuzz]

11 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

If the WRITERS would overthink things it would be better.  WE can think all we want but it won't change anything till the writers do.

No, it won't. But thinking is a good thing; too bad the writers don't do enough of it.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Thom said:

I just assumed that the whole 'war college' thing is a left-over from when Earth was not part of the Federation, post Burn. In Disco, we saw that Earth had it's own defense force and I'm assuming it is still in existence, in-effect right beside Starfleet, and maybe fodder for future integration back into Starfleet as things progress.

The War College being a post-Federation United Earth institution would have made more sense.

No such luck, though.  The series makes the War College out to be an alternate Academy that may have existed alongside Starfleet Academy as far back as the 28th century, that this is its first year active on Earth alongside Starfleet Academy, and that at least one Starfleet officer in the cast (Lura) graduated from the War College instead of the Academy.

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

As to the show, the first episode was all right, but these last two were hokey nonsense! My gawd! That's not to say I have a problem with the plot, but just the decision to turn the Academy into basically a futuristic version of Animal House, and not done very well at that. Drop the attempts at comedy and get to the overall story! In fact, this would have been better if these cadets were third or fourth years, giving them more leeway to get away from the frat house um, the Academy.

May give it another episode before deciding to abandon this one. Man, really wish they'd given us another season of Prodigy...

To each their own.  I had kind of the opposite reaction, though didn't think either set of episodes was great.

I do agree that one of the show's main weaknesses is its insistence on treating the freshman cadets like a particularly unruly grade school class instead of the fairly mature and highly professional young adults you'd expect to be attending one of the most exclusive educational institutions in the Federation.  The vibe is less "fun shenanigans" as "standards must've slipped".  

[sketchley]

5 hours ago, Thom said:

I just assumed that the whole 'war college' thing is a left-over from when Earth was not part of the Federation, post Burn. In Disco, we saw that Earth had it's own defense force and I'm assuming it is still in existence, in-effect right beside Starfleet, and maybe fodder for future integration back into Starfleet as things progress.

Wasn't Starfleet Security (in the TOS–Next Gen era) something along those lines?  I may be conflating the origins of the M.A.C.O.s from Enterprise here though... 🤔

 

5 hours ago, Thom said:

Drop the attempts at comedy and get to the overall story! In fact, this would have been better if these cadets were third or fourth years, giving them more leeway to get away from the frat house um, the Academy.

It begs the question: is Starfleet Academy the Nu-Trek answer to The Orville?  (albeit, coloured by the show runners' interpretation of Star Trek as seen in Discovery et al.)

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Wasn't Starfleet Security (in the TOS–Next Gen era) something along those lines?  I may be conflating the origins of the M.A.C.O.s from Enterprise here though... 🤔

Starfleet Security was a division of United Earth (later Federation) Starfleet that, role-wise, were normally depicted as being somewhere between naval infantry and military police in practice.  They guarded ships and bases against intruders, escorted and protected VIPs, and investigated criminal activity.  They're not soldiers, but they've got that "mildly military" thing going on that all of Starfleet does.

You're probably thinking of the MACOs from Enterprise.  They were a detachment of soldiers from an elite United Earth military unit that seem to the space version of Army Rangers or a Marine Corps reconnaissance unit.  They were on loan to Archer and the NX-01 Enterprise for the duration of the Xindi emergency, but had a separate chain of command that led to all kinds of jurisdiction friction with the ship's Starfleet security chief (Lt. Reed).  

Spoiler

Star Trek: Beyond referenced the MACOs, with the villain of the piece being a MACO who was offered (and accepted) a Starfleet commission when United Earth began disbanding their military after the Federation's founding in 2161.

Star Trek: Discovery subsequently suggested that Earth founded a new military after leaving the Federation, resulting in the United Earth Defense Force from season 3.

A few older episodes from TNG and DS9 (particularly DS9 "Rapture") suggest that it's normal for a new Federation member world's military to be dissolved or absorbed into Starfleet in the transition process.