Macross Plus Ending

[thedarkmarine]

Seeing as how most tragidies are more powerful than comdies, I was wondering who would agree that Isamu also dying would be a better ending. The YF-19 destroyed along with Sharon, and blah blah blah.

[drifand]

This isn't Gundam, you know? You want pathos? Try Zeta... damn sad.

[PC Valkyrie]

Death of a protagonist/hero/good guy adds a sense of realism to most action/sci-fic stories. I think Macross Plus was a good balance, as you have Guld dying to give that emotional down, while Isamu and Myung end up alive and happy together, with Sharon defeated to give the "good guys win" feeling.

[thedarkmarine]

That's the thing. I believe even more of an impact would be achieved if Isamu died. At the end, it could've gone either way, and the author just chose, "Suprise, it's happy!" Sorta sucks. I'm all for tragedies. They are almost always better.

[Hurin]

Uh. . . not to preach. . . but just having the hero die at the end doesn't make the story a tragedy.

In other words, had Isamu died at the end of Macross Plus, he would have just died. . . but it wouldn't have made the story a "tragedy" in the classical sense of the term. It would have just been a story where the hero died at the end!

The Shakespearean form of a tragedy usually entails foreshadowing the hero's fall, as well as a terrible sense of inevitability to his demise. A lot of tragedies are based in the idea, as well, that is the hero's own failings that will eventually do him in.

Again, I'm no English lit major, but I think just saying: "Isamu should have died and made the story a tragedy" totally misrepresents the rest of the Macross Plus story (which is definitely not a tragedy). . . and oversimplifies things quite a bit.

Best Regards,

[thedarkmarine]

True, Isamu is not the definition of the tragic hero. However, the relationship of the 3 characters had a tragic flaw from that incident onwards. Thus, the tragic character would more or less be the situation that these 3 make up, and Isamu's death would realize this tragic flaw, instead of finding a way around the flaw.

[Lightning]

(by the way tdm, no pics are allowed in sigs)

[JsARCLIGHT]

They already had one main character die (Guld), two main antagonists die (Sharron Apple and the Ghost), the "hero" recover from a life threatening injury (Isamu) only to loose one girl (Lucy) but get the girl he really wanted.

Having him die would have turned the story into a real tragedy in the literal sense, everyone would have suffered for nothing and the moral of the story would have been more one of love and loss than of true love reunited through hardship.

Certain characters are always "meant" to die in storys, and if the main character is one of them than it is for some specific reason. Most of the time that reason is for the viewer to learn something about the other characters or about themselves in general. Maximus dying at the end of Gladiator was his spirital "homecoming" that he was denied in life, Ripley dying in Alien3 was her sacrifice to protect the galaxy from the Aliens and Vincent Vega died in Pulp Fiction because Quentin Tarantino (and the rest of the world) really, really want to see John Travolta die in a hail of gunfire on the toilet.

[UN Spacy]

I suppose you also wanted the SDF-1 to be destroyed (along with the rest of Macross City). I think the ending of Macross Plus (and the Movie Edition) were great (with the M.E version a lot better). B)

[Radd]

I don't think Isamu dying at the end would have added anything else to the story. Guld's death had a purpose, and there was a lot of build up to it. I think his story was a tragedy, he had to die for the story to work out in the end. Him simply realizing he wasn't completely in control just wouldn't be enough. He still wouldn't be completely in control. He still wouldn't be with Myung. He still wouldn't be able to handle that. Isamu and Myung couldn't have quite the happy ending if their tragically flawed friend was still around with his tragic flaw, which was what originally kept them apart for so long to begin with.

Guld's death held weight. It made the story. Isamu dying would have been overkill and unecessary. It would have only taken away from the end of the story. It would have been the typical 'what if?' lack of restraint that is typical of fan fiction.

Edited August 26, 2003 by Radd

[IIymij]

hmmm tragedy perhaps... but somehow being Isamu the kinda guy he is

i dont tink alot of ppl in the storey would have cared if he died

it seems more like a tragedy when somebody very important dies (hes only important to the sense hes the main char) but other then that it jsut woudlnt have felt tragic more a less of a shock like

o i didnt c this comign but o wells on goes the credits

i dunno my 2 cents

[Commander McBride]

I'm glad Isamu lives. If I want to see a tragic anime, I'll go watch something by Tomino. Macross is, while still dark in places, mostly a relatively optimistic and bright anime.

[Unknown Target]

One of the things I like about Macross is that it's upbeat, with out being so optimistic as Star Trek, or annoyingly sad, such as some other shows I've seen. Gundam, however, speaking of which, I think that show has possibly the worst endings of every anime I've ever seen. And not just Gundam. Every single Gundam series and spin-off:D

Anyways, I'm glad he lived. If he died, I would have that feeling of being let down, after all, I watched this guy do all of that stuff, and at the end, boom, he's dead, Myung is without a boyfriend, and it leaves off at a place where it shouldn't.

[Druna Skass]

There's already a tradedy in Macross Plus, look at Guld. Started out as an upstanding guy it looked like, then he snapped over Myung, and just lived in denial for the next seven years, only to realize the truth and decide to kill himself.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

had Isamu died, for me at least, M+ would be like Jin-Roh with fighter planes. way too much of a tragedy, that way....

[Gyges]

I don't think Isamu dying would have added anything to the story, for the reasons adduced above.

There is one thing that bugs me about M+: Isamu doesn't have a character arc. Every other character (Even Sharon, Lucy, Millard, Yang, etc.) underwent appreciable character arcs. Isamu didn't change much at all during the course of the story.

[thedarkmarine]

As good as Macross Plus is, like I said, tragedies are always better. Comedies are fire and forget. Fun whores that you just fling around. Tragedies stay with you. As the current ending, it is not tragic. Guld dies, but the ending is still happy. Isamu and Myung gets to live happily ever after.

Guld's death, in a way, is a good thing. Gets to breath, "Phew, one finally died. The triangle is resolved." It's a happy death, I find.

As for an important character dying, Isamu is a very important character to Myung. That settles that.

If Isamu died, it would've put more emphesis on the importance of each character. You always find that something is needed most after you lose it.

Maybe it's just me. I hated the ending to Equilibrium, and enjoyed things like 1984 and CB.

[Mechamaniac]

Isamu dying would have served no purpose, unless you just didn't like the guy and were happy to see him get greased. Isamu was cold, irresponsible, and his braggadocio made Kakizaki look humble, so he's a pretty hard guy to like. They never explain why he has that strange moment before death thing do they?.

Guld while being very honorable on the surface was a hair's breadth away from being a murderer, and already was a rapist. Guld had to die at the end to redeem himself for his acts. Yeah, it would have been nice to see them all friends again, but realistically, that never would have happened. I still don't understand why Myung hooked up with Guld considering what he had done to her in the past, I guess the "poor zentraedi" defense really carries alot of weight .

Interesting to see how many people assume that Isamu and Myung end up together at the end of the story aside from just still being acquaintances or friends. Let's face it, Myung has some serious issues, she's pissed at the world, and pissed at Isamu because he gets to do what he loves, and she doesn't. Additionally, she obviously has some intimacy issues, having really picked the wrong dude to have sex with. . And I don't see Isamu settling down just because of this incident.

[Gyges]

As good as Macross Plus is, like I said, tragedies are always better. Comedies are fire and forget. Fun whores that you just fling around. Tragedies stay with you.

Well, since we've got that settled, you're right by definition. Tautologies are fun!

[Gokurakumaru]

Basically, yeah. There're all messed up and it's one of the reasons why I prefer the movie to the OVAs. You spend less time getting to know the characters and tend to hate them less.

And for my money Isamu gets court martialed and locked away for the rest of his days. He broke quarters, stole a classified experimental plane, destroyed a city, and trashed the Macross -- and all because he got his nose bent out of joint over a cancelled project.

[mcpaz]

Tragedy??

Isamu MUST live!!! He's da man

Might have been funny if Sharon had put Myung inside the Ghost. It would be a little bit sarcastic.

Of course, the best ending ever should be Guld giving me his yf-21.

(J/K)

Anyway, I don't know why, wherever is a love triangle (any KIND of love triangle), there is NOT a 'happy' or 'moral' ending. Might be some kind of cinema basic rule, or something.

Personally, for me the OVAs are just something that happens while I can't see mechas

mcpaz

[Aegis!]

The only alternative ending I can think of is if Isamu was the one fighting the Ghost and Guld the one that goes to recue Myung , then Isamu somehow kicks the hell out of the X-9 just in time for him to arrive at the precise moment Sharon rams the YF-21 with the SDF-1 , now that would be nice , think of the shock both Myung and Isamu would get. I wonder why the Neo Glaug (or the variable Glaug I forgot, well it´s the one from MP:GE for PSX) never was featured in the OVA or Movie , it would´ve been nice to see the VF-5000 as well

[thedarkmarine]

Guld while being very honorable on the surface was a hair's breadth away from being a murderer, and already was a rapist.

I also find that a common misconsception. Guld did not rape Myung. He saw himself after he ripped Myung's clothes, and you also see Isamu holding Myung with tattered clothes. There was no rape.

[Commander McBride]

Guld while being very honorable on the surface was a hair's breadth away from being a murderer, and already was a rapist. Guld had to die at the end to redeem himself for his acts. Yeah, it would have been nice to see them all friends again, but realistically, that never would have happened. I still don't understand why Myung hooked up with Guld considering what he had done to her in the past, I guess the "poor zentraedi" defense really carries alot of weight .

Hey, I know what I can be like to be on the edge between nice, normal guy and psychotic. I can sympathise with Guld's past actions....

Hey, maybe I'm a micronized Zentran, and not human at all!!!

[Mechamaniac]

Guld while being very honorable on the surface was a hair's breadth away from being a murderer, and already was a rapist.

I also find that a common misconsception. Guld did not rape Myung. He saw himself after he ripped Myung's clothes, and you also see Isamu holding Myung with tattered clothes. There was no rape.

There's nothing that says that he stopped when he saw himself in the mirror.

They don't show you what happened after that other than Isamu holding Myung in her torn up clothes, so you don't know how much further Guld went before Isamu stopped him.

[Roy Focker]

Exactly. You can not trust the Guld's memory as fact. It's more symbolism than anything else. For all we know there wasn't even a mirror at the actual event but when the repress memory came out then mirror appeared in Guld's mind for the memory.

Even though an actually rape isn't seen it's pretty much suggested. I think it would be pretty graphic to show a 5 minutes rape scene when a torn shirt tells you what likely happen.

[Hurin]

Okay, I'm going to take the Devil's/Guld's Advocate position here.

There's nothing that says that he stopped when he saw himself in the mirror.  They don't show you what happened after that other than Isamu holding Myung in her torn up clothes, so you don't know how much further Guld went before Isamu stopped him.

Except, of course, that the story teller shows him looking into a mirror immediately after tearing her clothes with no other "flash scenes" in between.

Exactly. You can not trust the Guld's memory as fact. It's more symbolism than anything else. For all we know there wasn't even a mirror at the actual event but when the repress memory came out then mirror appeared in Guld's mind for the memory.  Even though an actually rape isn't seen it's pretty much suggested. I think it would be pretty graphic to show a 5 minutes rape scene when a torn shirt tells you what likely happen.

"Pretty much suggested?"

Or, just maybe it happened just as the director/story teller relates it! He was about to rape her, and saw himself in the mirror, and came to his senses! I think, if the director/writer wanted us to know that he raped her, there could have been a more definitive "suggestion" than just a ripped shirt and a scream into a mirror. While still remaining PG-13.

It would seem a bit odd for the story to come to the point where Guld finally recovers his repressed memories, only to have those memories be false as well.

This all just seems too convenient for those who want to believe that Myung was raped by Guld. Granted, you can interpret it any way you want, but it seems, again, awfully convenient to dismiss what's there on the screen simply because it doesn't fit in with what you think happened.

Plus, Isamu was still there. . . so unless he was knocked totally unconscious, I don't think there was any time to commit such a heinous act.

edit: The idea that he did not actually rape her also makes Myung's decision to sleep with him later much more understandable.

I just think what's on the screen and in the story more broadly supports the version of, well, what's on the screen (ie, that he didn't raper her).end edit

And since we're on the subject of cutting the guy some slack. As for the murderer rap. . . at the time, he believed that Isamu raped the woman he loved. So, in that light, was he such a bad guy for almost killing Isamu, several times?

Just my two cents. And, by the way, I dislike Guld's character. I considered him the villain. Though, in all honesty, I didn't like Isamu that much either. That is actually one of my problems with M+. I don't actually like any of the protagonists!

Best Regards,

Edited August 27, 2003 by Hurin

[bob joe mac]

Now I love tradegy's My fav anime are 0080, Grave of the fireflies and Now and then Here and there. Those are very tragic but Isamu dieng wouldn't have the same effect as the others. Guld's death was kinda a atonement for his actions his entire life. While if Isamu died it would have just been BAM ok... well.... yeah.... that was pointless....

it would kinda be like the people who say V Gundam and Z Gundam are so tragic well sure alot people die but uhh like the shrike team die off WAY to fast to even acknoledge theeir existance and most of the cast in Z that die annoy me anyway and in Z and V none of the MAIN characters die. CCA was tradgic I had gotten to like Char and amuro so their deaths touched me more then Captain Henken from Z who was absent 60% of the show and who's only development was he had the hots for emma.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Am I totally missing something here? I could have sworn that in Guld's memory Myung is seen arguing with Isamu and then they aparently "make up", which Infuriates Guld as he sees it as Myung choosing Isamu over him. Guld then beats up on Myung... at which point he realizes he just went coo coo for cocoa puffs when he sees himself in the mirror. Guld psychologically blocks out his pain of rejection and places his feelings of rejection on Isamu. He somehow projects Isamu as the one who "lost" Myung and beat her in retribution.

There was no rape, Guld just went ape shinkies when he found out that Myung was not "his".

[Hurin]

JsCarlight,

That's pretty much it. . . I think that was the motivation for Guld. . . and then he started to go too far, and stopped himself. But what he's already done was horrible enough for him to repress things. Between his shame and his grief over Myung choosing Isamu (in his mind), he became one sick little puppy.

Anyways. . . the "evidence" for Guld not raping Myung:

1. The story doesn't show it. Though some would argue the ripped shirt "suggests."

2. The next shot after the ripping shirt shows Guld looking into the mirror and (IMHO) "coming to his senses."

3. Isamu was still in the room. Unless rendered totally immobile or unconscious, a rape would have been nearly impossible to accomplish before he interfered.

4. Myung sleeps with Guld later in life. This would be more easily explained if Guld had not raped her.

5. Isamu seems okay with Guld once his memory returns. An odd reaction to a guy who actually raped your best friend/woman you love. Had the rape actually occured, I doubt Isamu would actually say, essentially: "Hey, all those years ago, I broke your airplane. And you raped Myung. We're even."

The case against Guld:

1. There may be "missing time" not covered by the show between the shirt ripping and Guld "coming to his senses."

2. Guld's memory of the event may still be screwy and the ripped shirt is intended to make us all assume that he raped her.

Notice that the latter two both contain the word "may." Though, of course, I wrote them. So that's not entirely fair.

But, basically, I just prefer to go with what is on the screen. And I think the writers/director/animator would have been more clear if they intended us to believe that Guld actually raped her.

Again, you can interpret it any way you want. . . but the intent of the writers/directory/animators should also be taken into account. . . and I think the perponderance of evidence is in the "no rape" camp.

Best Regards,

H

Edited August 27, 2003 by Hurin

[Mechamaniac]

Looks like we have another question to add to the all time list of unanswered questions:

What happened to Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay?

Was Max a traitor in DYRL?

How did Max kill that Zentraedi guy in space?

What's better, Coke or Pepsi?

and finally..

Did Guld actually rape Myung?

[TheLoneWolf]

Even though an actually rape isn't seen it's pretty much suggested. I think it would be pretty graphic to show a 5 minutes rape scene when a torn shirt tells you what likely happen.

Roy hit the nail on the head, you guys are reading way too much into the series. Remember, this is Kawamori we're dealing with here, not the Wachowski brothers.

[JsARCLIGHT]

But Kawamori went really far out of his way to show us Mylene almost getting raped in M7 Dynamite... I think if he went that far in M7 (what many see as a kiddie show) then if had intended for Guld to rape Myung he would have given a bit less nebulous of imagery. You don't have to show the act to get the point across but a torn shirt does not a rape make...

[Hurin]

Roy hit the nail on the head, you guys are reading way too much into the series. Remember, this is Kawamori we're dealing with here, not the Wachowski brothers.

Actually, it is those that are asserting that an actual rape took place who would seem to be reading into things. The rest of us are just going by what's up on the screen!

H

[Mechamaniac]

a torn shirt does not a rape make...

But a torn shirt, a damn near rape, trying to kill a guy twice, and lying about it makes you a scumbag.

Edited August 27, 2003 by Mechamaniac