Something many didn't know about the VF-1...

[Druna Skass]

Beam sabers are plasma? I thought they were laser energy.

Plasma or not I doubt a VF can take more than one Dober Gun round, and there's always the heat weapons.

[ogami]

WoW, you guys play/know Super Robot Wars!

I am a big fan of SRW. (specially SRW alpha and 2nd SRW alpha ) The crossover is GREAT!

VFs, MSs, Super Robots team together and fight against (underground empires/evil ancient civilizations/Titans/Zeon/aliens who're trying to destory mankind/invaders from other solar systems/creatures from other dimensions) together... it is so "hot blood"

what else can u ask for?

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

[Zentrandude]

1380 kW?

we have trains here in holland that deliver more power

"our" standard electro locomotive has 2x 1790kW, weighing 84 tons

=54kW/1t

our Headrunner -a complete train- has 1890Kw at 192t = 9.84Kw/1t

these are trains that have a top speed of 180-160 Km/H

now I don't know what the Gundam's power-to-weight ratio is

edit: ah, around 60t  = 23kW/1t (that's quite a difference!)

not very impressive when a VF-1 is 19.2t loaded with FP's totalling 677kW/1t

Yeah but can your trains fly or transform to gerwalk ?

if it did you wont want to be near it happen.

[ArchVile]

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

Seconded.

Course Max is up there.

[JB0]

Beam sabers are plasma? I thought they were laser energy.

Plasma or not I doubt a VF can take more than one Dober Gun round, and there's always the heat weapons.

They ARE plasma. Specifically, plasma contained at a high density my a minovsky particle structure.

Which makes the theorization posted by Final Vegeta even more speculative.

I wouldn't trust it, personally.

Personally, I want to see the YF-21 get in there. It's the only thing I see giving the Macross side a real chance against newtype/zero system/insert-plot-element-here pilots.

And yes, SRW rules. Any game where the Maizinger Z can beat up on a Zaku gets my vote automatically.

Edited November 19, 2003 by JB0

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

Max, Millia, Roy and Isamu got 'em beat.

[Mr March]

Done this debate before. The Valkyries statistics are much more favorable than even second and third generation mobile suits. Valkyries simply use much better technology in nearly every measurable benchmark except hand-to-hand combat...a title Gundam is welcome to hold for all the good it would do them. The Valkyries weigh a helluva lot less than Gundams yet possess just as much thrust, meaning they can run circles around a mobile suit. The Valkyries utilize reactors that produce entire orders of magnitude more power than mobile suit reactors and a VF-1 can sustain more g's than almost any other mobile suit. The Valkyries have more versatile standard weapon loadouts and use reaction weapons. The Valkyries are all transformation capable, making them far more versatile military vehicles than a single-mode MS and they enjoy the use of several mission specific modules like Super, Strike, and GBP modules. A single Super VF-1 is light enough and possesses enough thrust that it outclasses every mobile suit from UC 0079 all the way to UC 0153 (MSG to Victory). In fact, even the light weight Gundams of Gundam Wing just barely beat out the lowly VF-1...and this is using just a first generation Valkyrie for comparison. Scary

[ogami]

Done this debate before. The Valkyries statistics are much more favorable than even second and third generation mobile suits. Valkyries simply use much better technology in nearly every measurable benchmark except hand-to-hand combat...a title Gundam is welcome to hold for all the good it would do them. The Valkyries weigh a helluva lot less than Gundams yet possess just as much thrust, meaning they can run circles around a mobile suit. The Valkyries utilize reactors that produce entire orders of magnitude more power than mobile suit reactors and a VF-1 can sustain more g's than almost any other mobile suit. The Valkyries have more versatile standard weapon loadouts and use reaction weapons. The Valkyries are all transformation capable, making them far more versatile military vehicles than a single-mode MS and they enjoy the use of several mission specific modules like Super, Strike, and GBP modules. A single Super VF-1 is light enough and possesses enough thrust that it outclasses every mobile suit from UC 0079 all the way to UC 0153 (MSG to Victory). In fact, even the light weight Gundams of Gundam Wing just barely beat out the lowly VF-1...and this is using just a first generation Valkyrie for comparison. Scary

Victory is not slow at all...

G Gundam and Master Gundam are... very fast too

VFs do fly faster but Gundams have stronger and better weapons (for example: psychic communcation weapon)

That's why in SRW, VFs (and Aura Battler Dunbine) are for fast attack and getting the enemies attentions while Gundams and other Super Robots do the finishing move. (except Amuro, he can do anything with his Hi-Nu Gundam)

[ogami]

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

Max, Millia, Roy and Isamu got 'em beat.

They are Ace pilot.

But Amuro and Char are evolved human (aka New Type) with psychic power...

Amuro did push the asteroid, "Axis", away from earth...

[JB0]

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

Max, Millia, Roy and Isamu got 'em beat.

They are Ace pilot.

But Amuro and Char are evolved human (aka New Type) with psychic power...

Amuro did push the asteroid, "Axis", away from earth...

Yup. All by himself. Barehanded, too. Not even a spacesuit.

...

Ummm, no.

[ogami]

Amuro and Char are the best pilots in the whole Japanese Animation world... anyone agree?

Max, Millia, Roy and Isamu got 'em beat.

They are Ace pilot.

But Amuro and Char are evolved human (aka New Type) with psychic power...

Amuro did push the asteroid, "Axis", away from earth...

Yup. All by himself. Barehanded, too. Not even a spacesuit.

...

Ummm, no.

Amuro is some sort of God-like figure in the animation world (same for Roy and Char).

[yellowlightman]

Yup. All by himself. Barehanded, too. Not even a spacesuit.

...

Ummm, no.

Nu-Gundam obviously didn't do all the work, if it did thats a ridiculously powered Mobile Suit. Power like that Lond Bell would have needed one MS.

But... the whole ending of CCA is a debate for places other than here.

[Mr March]

Done this debate before.  The Valkyries statistics are much more favorable than even second and third generation mobile suits.  Valkyries simply use much better technology in nearly every measurable benchmark except hand-to-hand combat...a title Gundam is welcome to hold for all the good it would do them.  The Valkyries weigh a helluva lot less than Gundams yet possess just as much thrust, meaning they can run circles around a mobile suit.  The Valkyries utilize reactors that produce entire orders of magnitude more power than mobile suit reactors and a VF-1 can sustain more g's than almost any other mobile suit.  The Valkyries have more versatile standard weapon loadouts and use reaction weapons.  The Valkyries are all transformation capable, making them far more versatile military vehicles than a single-mode MS and they enjoy the use of several mission specific modules like Super, Strike, and GBP modules.  A single Super VF-1 is light enough and possesses enough thrust that it outclasses every mobile suit from UC 0079 all the way to UC 0153 (MSG to Victory).  In fact, even the light weight Gundams of Gundam Wing just barely beat out the lowly VF-1...and this is using just a first generation Valkyrie for comparison.  Scary

Victory is not slow at all...

G Gundam and Master Gundam are... very fast too

VFs do fly faster but Gundams have stronger and better weapons (for example: psychic communcation weapon)

That's why in SRW, VFs (and Aura Battler Dunbine) are for fast attack and getting the enemies attentions while Gundams and other Super Robots do the finishing move. (except Amuro, he can do anything with his Hi-Nu Gundam)

Both the Victory Gundam and Master Gundam are outclassed even by just the VF-1, to say nothing about the later, more advanced Valkyries. As for the psycommu weapon, I assume you're now moving from mobile suits and talking about Angel Halo. THe Macross would make short work of that thing, well outside of range of course.

As for Amuro being a god, I'll reserve a good laugh for that one

[Druna Skass]

I've always seen the VFs as the fast and agile units and the MS as the tanks, and I still think a VF vs MS fight would be fairly even with VFs holding the agility edge and MSs packing the armor and firepower. I'm sure some MSs would be able to hold their own with a VF in terms of mobility, put manuvering thrusters in the right places on the limbs, like the GP01fb and it could prove to be fairly agile. And really aside from the 100mm machine guns what MS weapon can a VF take mulitple hits from? A buster rifle? The Agni Cannon? The Dober Gun? Wouldn't a direct full blast shot from a double buster rifle, Mega Cannon, Satelite Cannon, or some other "anti-colony" weapon overload a pin point barrier? And some of those big guns have a pretty decent rate of fire. I'm still not convinced the standard gunpod and micro missiles would do much against Phase Shift armor.

Since they're both Kawamori's creations I'd like to see a match between the GP01fb and a VF-1S Strike, with no nukes.

[Anubis]

I've always seen the VFs as the fast and agile units and the MS as the tanks, and I still think a VF vs MS fight would be fairly even with VFs holding the agility edge and MSs packing the armor and firepower. I'm sure some MSs would be able to hold their own with a VF in terms of mobility, put manuvering thrusters in the right places on the limbs, like the GP01fb and it could prove to be fairly agile. And really aside from the 100mm machine guns what MS weapon can a VF take mulitple hits from? A buster rifle? The Agni Cannon? The Dober Gun? Wouldn't a direct full blast shot from a double buster rifle, Mega Cannon, Satelite Cannon, or some other "anti-colony" weapon overload a pin point barrier? And some of those big guns have a pretty decent rate of fire. I'm still not convinced the standard gunpod and micro missiles would do much against Phase Shift armor.

Since they're both Kawamori's creations I'd like to see a match between the GP01fb and a VF-1S Strike, with no nukes.

That would be an interesting, and much more level fielded, fight.

And yes, the VF-17 had a pin-point-barrier (the D/S models)

Edited November 20, 2003 by Anubis

[Final Vegeta]

I've always seen the VFs as the fast and agile units and the MS as the tanks

But if you lose the war in the air, you'll lose the war, and you'll lose it quickly, that's why VFs rule, you can only do limited things with tanks.

I'm sure some MSs would be able to hold their own with a VF in terms of mobility, put manuvering thrusters in the right places on the limbs, like the GP01fb and it could prove to be fairly agile.

Actually, more amor = more mass, and you'll need more powerful thrusters to move. You won't ever be as agile as a Valkyrie. MS are bigger, too. Valkyries have also a more rational construction, they had their main thrusters in the legs, so they can stop instantly in the space by pulling their legs forward.

Wouldn't a direct full blast shot from a double buster rifle, Mega Cannon, Satelite Cannon, or some other "anti-colony" weapon overload a pin point barrier?

If a VF can be downed by a Macross Cannon, those weapons will work.

And a VF alone is really awesome if you need those weapons to destroy it.

And some of those big guns have a pretty decent rate of fire. I'm still not convinced the standard gunpod and micro missiles would do much against Phase Shift armor.

AU Gundams are not real Gundams, they are only robot which use the same name. And if you keep increasing Gundam Power every show, is only a matter of trial and error before you actually create a robot more powerful than a VF.

And yes, the VF-17 had a pin-point-barrier (the D/S models)

Compendium doesn't say anything about it. I myself didn't have seen one in Macross 7.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Amuro did push the asteroid, "Axis", away from earth...

Those are mental powers, not fighting skills

Anyway, according to Entertainment Bible #39, Amuro Ray destroyed 142 MS and 9 ships in the OYW. By comparison, Char isn't even listed among Zeon's best aces.

(info taken from the url below)

http://side7.gundam.com/rgz/info/ace.html

FV

[Mislovrit]

As for Amuro being a god, I'll reserve a good laugh for that one

Amuro is treated like a god by his fans.

[Aegis!]

You gundam people are telling me a puny MS unit could hold a battle against a UN Spacy aircraft ? yeah right

Any MS would be simply cannon fodder against something like the X-9 Ghost (the YF-21 itself had difficulties beating it and a MS would be made scrap metal by the 21 ). Worse yet , a MS wouldn´t even beat a VA-14

For those that consider MS to have an advantage in regards to payload , then I should remind you of the VF-11 Full Armour , the VA-14 , the Konig mosnter , and the list goes on and on...

[Druna Skass]

Another thing, how well would a VF perform in an area saturated with Minovski Particles or Neutron Jammers?

[Druna Skass]

You gundam people are telling me a puny MS unit could hold a battle against a UN Spacy aircraft ? yeah right

Any MS would be simply cannon fodder against something like the X-9 Ghost (the YF-21 itself had difficulties beating it and a MS would be made scrap metal by the 21 ). Worse yet , a MS wouldn´t even beat a VA-14

For those that consider MS to have an advantage in regards to payload , then I should remind you of the VF-11 Full Armour , the VA-14 , the Konig mosnter , and the list goes on and on...

Puny? If this is accurate the 1/60 Freedom Gundam is about 6 in taller than the 1/60 VF-1. Hell the bore of one of those shoulder cannons is almost as big as a GU-11.

VF-11 Full Armor, that's standard equipment for some MSs.

Koenig Monster - GP03 Orchis, Full Armor Enhanced ZZ, the list goes on and on here too.

[Druna Skass]

I've always seen the VFs as the fast and agile units and the MS as the tanks

But if you lose the war in the air, you'll lose the war, and you'll lose it quickly, that's why VFs rule, you can only do limited things with tanks.

I'm sure some MSs would be able to hold their own with a VF in terms of mobility, put manuvering thrusters in the right places on the limbs, like the GP01fb and it could prove to be fairly agile.

Actually, more amor = more mass, and you'll need more powerful thrusters to move. You won't ever be as agile as a Valkyrie. MS are bigger, too. Valkyries have also a more rational construction, they had their main thrusters in the legs, so they can stop instantly in the space by pulling their legs forward.

Wouldn't a direct full blast shot from a double buster rifle, Mega Cannon, Satelite Cannon, or some other "anti-colony" weapon overload a pin point barrier?

If a VF can be downed by a Macross Cannon, those weapons will work.

And a VF alone is really awesome if you need those weapons to destroy it.

And some of those big guns have a pretty decent rate of fire. I'm still not convinced the standard gunpod and micro missiles would do much against Phase Shift armor.

AU Gundams are not real Gundams, they are only robot which use the same name. And if you keep increasing Gundam Power every show, is only a matter of trial and error before you actually create a robot more powerful than a VF.

And yes, the VF-17 had a pin-point-barrier (the D/S models)

Compendium doesn't say anything about it. I myself didn't have seen one in Macross 7.

FV

Man I never realized I was this much of a dork And to think I talk with a slight "gangsta" accent too... ah well...

As for being a war in the air, I'm talking about a fight in space.

Yes more armor means more mass, and some MSs do have powerful thrusters and while it may not be on the feet some units have thrusters at the ankles like the Zeta series units. Come to think of it I think the Rick Dom has some on the feet. And those four limbs can serve as hard points for thrusters, so some suits would be able to eaisly dodge missiles and would definatly be able to turn better than a VF in fighter mode.

As for a VF being "really awesome" same could be said with some MS units, look at the GP units like the GP03 Dendrobium Orchis.

[zerocool]

thats interesting

[Skull Leader]

There was discussion earlier about nuclear weapons on MS vs. VFs.

I would point out that GP02 "Unit 2" had a rather primative delivery system, almost a "point and shoot" setup. I'm not even sure if the warhead was "smart" or not. Given the delivery system, I'd say there isn't any way that GB02 could lower the boom on a VF.... they're simply too fast.

The VFs prove (many times, in fact) that the RMS-01 Nuclear missile is both agile and powerful. They were designed to eliminate multi-mile long spaceships.. but they were also effective in eliminating large groups of enemy units. In terms of ordinance and delivery means, I'd say the VF has GB02 completely outclassed.

Anavel Gato would have to have the best day of his life and be completely in his "A" game to land a shot like that (and not be within the blast radius)... sorry, I just don't see it happening.

Edited November 21, 2003 by Skull Leader

[Aegis!]

You gundam people are telling me a puny MS unit could hold a battle against a UN Spacy aircraft ? yeah right     

Any MS would be simply cannon fodder against something like the X-9 Ghost (the YF-21 itself had difficulties beating it and a MS would be made scrap metal by the 21 ). Worse yet , a MS wouldn´t even beat a VA-14 

For those that consider MS to have an advantage in regards to payload , then I should remind you of the VF-11 Full Armour , the VA-14 , the Konig mosnter , and the list goes on and on...

Puny? If this is accurate the 1/60 Freedom Gundam is about 6 in taller than the 1/60 VF-1. Hell the bore of one of those shoulder cannons is almost as big as a GU-11.

VF-11 Full Armor, that's standard equipment for some MSs.

Koenig Monster - GP03 Orchis, Full Armor Enhanced ZZ, the list goes on and on here too.

You´ve proved my point.

As you said , MS are bigger than Valkyries , but they´re much heavier and slower as well so for that matter any VF would outclass a MS in a battle. I wouldn´t put much fate in the effectives of MS weapons given the fact that the mechas themselves are too slow to even lock onto a VF , and any long-range mass destructive weapon would be easily dodged by a valkyrie (particularly the latest valks , the Ghost , the Pheyos valkyrie , etc..)

Armour-wise , MS would sustain a big ammount of damage for some time but after that they´re pretty much damned against something like the Ghosts beam weaponary or PPB punches. In contrast valkyries would be to fast for Ms to even hit them , and even if they did , the PPB system would endure a lot more than a MS´s armour.

even if (some) MS pilots have psychic powers to see what a VF pilot plans , it wouldn´t help much against VFs since the response time of MS are correspondent of the physical reactions of the pilot himself , so even if a MS pilot knows what to do , the VF would be at their back even before they aimed their weapons at it.

[Druna Skass]

You gundam people are telling me a puny MS unit could hold a battle against a UN Spacy aircraft ? yeah right     

Any MS would be simply cannon fodder against something like the X-9 Ghost (the YF-21 itself had difficulties beating it and a MS would be made scrap metal by the 21 ). Worse yet , a MS wouldn´t even beat a VA-14 

For those that consider MS to have an advantage in regards to payload , then I should remind you of the VF-11 Full Armour , the VA-14 , the Konig mosnter , and the list goes on and on...

Puny? If this is accurate the 1/60 Freedom Gundam is about 6 in taller than the 1/60 VF-1. Hell the bore of one of those shoulder cannons is almost as big as a GU-11.

VF-11 Full Armor, that's standard equipment for some MSs.

Koenig Monster - GP03 Orchis, Full Armor Enhanced ZZ, the list goes on and on here too.

You´ve proved my point.

As you said , MS are bigger than Valkyries , but they´re much heavier and slower as well so for that matter any VF would outclass a MS in a battle. I wouldn´t put much fate in the effectives of MS weapons given the fact that the mechas themselves are too slow to even lock onto a VF , and any long-range mass destructive weapon would be easily dodged by a valkyrie (particularly the latest valks , the Ghost , the Pheyos valkyrie , etc..)

Armour-wise , MS would sustain a big ammount of damage for some time but after that they´re pretty much damned against something like the Ghosts beam weaponary or PPB punches. In contrast valkyries would be to fast for Ms to even hit them , and even if they did , the PPB system would endure a lot more than a MS´s armour.

even if (some) MS pilots have psychic powers to see what a VF pilot plans , it wouldn´t help much against VFs since the response time of MS are correspondent of the physical reactions of the pilot himself , so even if a MS pilot knows what to do , the VF would be at their back even before they aimed their weapons at it.

Well if I've proven your point, you missed one that I've made in a previous post about an MS being able to turn faster than a VF in fighter mode. Seeing as how the Ghost is locked in a fighter mode, yes it may be able to fly loops around an MS, I never said it couldn't, and MS could easily rotate and track it. I really doubt they rotate a the speed Armored Cores do. Oh one question about the Ghost, aside from the missile launchers, what's it's fireing arc. In the Macross Plus movie it only looked like it could shoot forward. If all it could do is shoot forward then I'd give the advantage to the MS with the wider fireing arc. Sure the Ghost is more agile and faster but unless it's gun has a longer range it'll vunerable making it's attack runs. And for all we know units like the GP01fb could have stats equal to a Q-Rau. As for lock ons would that still be a problem for a seasoned MS pilot. With Minovski parcticles I don't think they had much of a targeting system to rely on. And even if the PPBs held out agains the MS's shots would the be wide enough to contain the blast area. And if the MS is wieleding a rapid fire gun then it could just pepper the VF.

Another thing is the way a MS is made, all the important suff is in the core and the core can take a pounding. With a VF the engines are in the legs, an MS could lose several limbs and still fight on, you take out a VF's leg, or both leg and it'll be feeling some serious pain. A VF going in for a PPB punch stands a good chance of losing just a limb if it's lucky, the blade on the Freedom's saber is longer than a VF-1. And as I said before, if it looses a leg it's going to be feeling some hurt.

[Mr March]

Another thing, how well would a VF perform in an area saturated with Minovski Particles or Neutron Jammers?

Anyone's guess is as good as another's, but consider this: OverTechnology has given the UN Spacy the Cyclops Cross-Dimension Radar system. The system has proved capable of detecting gravity emmissions, real time detection over light minutes, and the Cyclops can be used underwater...an enviroment that negates conventional radar systems. I'd say the Valkyries have little to worry about with Minovsky particles.

[Anubis]

About the VF-17 and PPB's: I'm not sure now. Final Vegeta was right, the compendium doesn't say anything about it. This guy does, but he's been full of crap before. All I know is I remember seeing the 17's block shots with their arms during M7.

Edited November 21, 2003 by Anubis

[Final Vegeta]

Well if I've proven your point, you missed one that I've made in a previous post about an MS being able to turn faster than a VF in fighter mode.

But in fighter mode a VF would be a smaller target (3.84 m against 18 m minus inclination), and a fast one. It is assumed the VF wouldn't fail the alpha strike, which is a wide spread attack.

Anyway, there are Macross Zero's patented tecniques. The VF would get past the MS, it would change to gerwalk moving backward and above the MS, and the MS would turn and not find anything, while the VF would change to battroid and shot the MS's exposed back

Seeing as how the Ghost is locked in a fighter mode, yes it may be able to fly loops around an MS, I never said it couldn't, and MS could easily rotate and track it.

In space a ghost would be terrific. In atmosphere it is limited to go forward, but in space it could turn while still going in the opposite direction. And the usual yadda yadda, the ghost is lighter, half as long as a VF (1/8 volume) and would turn faster than the MS.

Oh one question about the Ghost, aside from the missile launchers, what's it's fireing arc. In the Macross Plus movie it only looked like it could shoot forward. If all it could do is shoot forward then I'd give the advantage to the MS with the wider fireing arc. Sure the Ghost is more agile and faster but unless it's gun has a longer range it'll vunerable making it's attack runs.

I think the lasers are semifixed like the YF-21's ones.

Well, I think Ghost lasers have longer range than RX-78 Gundam's beam rifles. After all Gundam was a close combat MS. The Guntank (long range) didn't have any beam rifles, while the Guncannon (mid range) still has.

But you are talking about an umanned vehicle which can get past human Gs limitations (for making it more clear, the YF-21 could physically withstand +32.5 G, while the GP01fb has a maximum thruster acceleration of 3.16 G). And it is an AI, it has incredible aim and reflexes, can see from all its cameras like with the BDS/BDI and it uses five light speed weapons which can fire each at a different target in the same moment. It's like the powered up version of a funnel.

I remember once I saw a friend of mine playing Quake 3, and a bot toasted him with a rocket in the exact moment he entered a room, firing from the opposite side. It felt like cheating.

And for all we know units like the GP01fb could have stats equal to a Q-Rau.

What stats, exactly? By the way, a Q-Rau has two 2.1 GW class generator, more than three times a VF-1. If you can't match a VF-1, you won't match a Q-Rau (which has the special inertia vector control system, too).

Anyway, these are some official stats:

RX-78GP01-Fb Gundam Full Vernian "Zephyranthes"

Weight: empty 43.2 metric tons; max gross 74.0 metric tons

Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 4 x 45000 kg, 4 x 13500 kg

(note: I didn't find listed any other thrusters, while Z Gundam has actually more)

VF-1 equipped with FAST packs

Empty mass: 19200 kg; standard takeoff mass: 45000 kg; maximum takeoff mass: 72000 kg

(without considering FAST packs) Vernier thruster types: Shinnakasu Heavy Industry NBS-1 x 4, P&W LHP04 x 18, 1 counter reverse vernier thruster nozzle on the side of each leg nacelle air intake. Engines are rated at 11500 kg each, 23000 kg x2 in overboost.

Additional engines/thrusters/systems: 120000 kg class P&W EF-2001 booster thruster x 2, CTB-04 conformal propellant tank x 2, vernier thruster x many.

The most agile is the Strike VF-1.

And for what I know, I think the regult was thought as the RX-78 of Macross (same weight (who said the regult was lightly armored?), similar height, they hop and use beams).

With Minovski parcticles I don't think they had much of a targeting system to rely on.

You should

pay more attention to the original Macross series. There are a lot of references to Gundam. In one of the early episode Roy comments about how automatic pointers are no longer useful (maybe too much active stealth or plasma exhausts in the same space). In another episode, the one with the GBP-1S, Zentradis jammed radio frequencies, and Misa used laser communications.

Macross world was yet ready to counter Gundam world.

And by the way, Valkyries were made in Apollo Base, on the lunar surface

Another thing is the way a MS is made, all the important suff is in the core and the core can take a pounding. With a VF the engines are in the legs, an MS could lose several limbs and still fight on, you take out a VF's leg, or both leg and it'll be feeling some serious pain. A VF going in for a PPB punch stands a good chance of losing just a limb if it's lucky, the blade on the Freedom's saber is longer than a VF-1. And as I said before, if it looses a leg it's going to be feeling some hurt.

You are saying a MS's legs are baits like a lizard's tail?

As a matter of fact, they are ballast mass. Those MSs should cut off their legs, they would be more agile in space without them

Well, I think (but I'm not sure) that the usually the legs of a Gundam contain secondary thrusters used for turning the MS in space. In the RX-78 era, a MS usually had only four thrusters other than the main ones. There must be at least one in each calf, maybe the others are in the shoulders. A OYW MS without a leg loses 1/4 of his manouvrability. After all, in space you need to stop momentum; if you want to perform a 180° spin, 90° are acceleration, 90° are deceleration. I think that it would be the Gundam to loop in space since they have very few thrusters, not the ghost

Anyway, those designs have different philosophies in mind. If a MS's reactor get hit, the pilot is doomed. If the VF lost its engines, the VF is useless but the pilot can still be saved. When an engine is gone, the VF should go back to the base. The MSs have not even escape pods, they are mousetraps.

And the plasma saber is not a reasonable weapon. If you make the enemy robot with all his weapons explode in your face, in the real world you will be very sorry.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

As for being a war in the air, I'm talking about a fight in space.

I think that, in real world, defensive war tend to be a slow defeat. VFs are faster, so they can hit vitals objectives earlier. Once they get past the enemy lines and blow up all Gundams' spaceships, Gundams have to surrender or die in space.

The Fold Booster improved the concept.

MS are not fast enough to serve like interceptors, most of them are not even stealth and they are not that worth within atmosphere. They are intimidating, but that's all.

some MSs do have powerful thrusters and while it may not be on the feet some units have thrusters at the ankles like the Zeta series units.

But AFAIK they have not the same thrust, they are used for turning the MS. A VF has even the thrusters on the ankles.

And those four limbs can serve as hard points for thrusters,

Thrusters that are seen anywhere in animation? I don't have seen much Gundam (although I read the specs of most of them).

so some suits would be able to eaisly dodge missiles and would definatly be able to turn better than a VF in fighter mode.

Yeah, and if you attach some thrusters to a spaceship it would easily dodge missiles, too.

Being bigger not only means you are more slow, but also you have a bigger silhouette, so you are an easier target. You have to be twice manouvrable enough to dodge missiles.

In fact, VF-1s usually don't try to out-manouver missiles, they shoot them down with lasers and gunpods, because once you dodge a missile the overtechnology missile turns and still follows you.

As for a VF being "really awesome" same could be said with some MS units, look at the GP units like the GP03 Dendrobium Orchis.

I said awesome meaning that you need a highly cost uneffective weapon (usually invented just for show, and then actually used in combat) to take down a mass produced member of a huge flight force.

And I have only seen the first episode of 0083, but from what I know of the Orchis is amazing how you can attach to a robot something that is nearly spaceship sized and you get something which is 500 times more fast and powerful than a spaceship, but only half fast and powerful than a robot of the same size (anime laws of mechas).

FV

[Druna Skass]

Ok before this starts emulating the HG and Macross II threads I'll say this, neither a mobile suit or a VF is worth sh!t if the pilot sucks, or they find themselfs in a Macross or Lohengren cannon blast.

[Dart Omega Dragon]

do not forget that Wing Zero can not be destoried?......

If I remember right didn't that thing go through massive fire fights with out even a dent?

[David Hingtgen]

Until it blew itself apart by firing its main gun in Endless Waltz....

Hero-mecha syndrome: cannot be hurt until plot-line calls for it. It can take nukes and be fine, but a 9mm bullet from a handgun will blow apart its core if the script says so.

[Macross_Fanboy]

That's why I don't like Gundam! It's not as realistic as Macross is about those sort of things. <_

[Dart Omega Dragon]

I never like Gundam my self..just thought I would Throw in that fact about Wing Zero.

oh and by the way it's own pilot blew it up with a hand held detenater(I think)