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Aircraft Vs Thread 5


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Don't know if this has been posted (It's a few year old too) so sorry if everyone here has seen this but I love it anyways. Back at Nellis in '04 it was IIRC the first airshow for the F-22 and the Air Force being the Air Force put the 30 year old F-14 in the line up RIGHT behind the Raptor... Ha Ha funny guys, maybe thinking that it would good to show the front line of the USAF then the Navy's best. Guess what? even USAF pilots theresaid that the good old Tomcat owned everything (even the super-duper Raptor) there with the display that they did.

Watch the opening shot of the 'Cat, about 35 seconds in! The rest is a little long and airshows never look that great on video to me (you really need to be there!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXyihqsNEUI

Oh yeah and for everyone who liked Alto with the two gun pods at the end of Frontier get a load of this F-4.

post-8467-1230886432_thumb.jpg

Edited by hobbes221
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I highly doubt it weighs that much.

:p

Thanks for the tip. Was looking into reading this one, on your review, I think I will.

Oh, it weighs that much. The Paras are just that hard! :lol: Its a good read, but it is over quite quickly - the text takes up a lot of space on each page, so the size of the hardback is a bit deceiving...

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Maybe if they painted it right. The paint and plane are about 30 years apart... (plus, the Jolly Rogers never use LEMON YELLOW on their planes) Plus the scheme itself is wrong. Not enough white. Kinda looks like the retro-attempt F-14D's. And they're obviously using one of many infamous pics of AJ 201 after its nosecone replacement, so that doesn't match up either.

Yeah, it's an F-14A. But not the type the Jolly Rogers had. Nor is it wearing the right camoflage. Nor is the yellow right.

"Jolly Rogers yellow" has a specific name---"chrome yellow-orange". It's not pure yellow, it's not bright. It's deep, rich, golden orange-yellow. It's basically construction equipment yellow.

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  • 4 weeks later...

First off, do NOT read the comments for this vid. Completely, totally wrong. It'd be like reading a review of Frontier's final ep written by a Robotechie. This is not a bird strike/ingestion test, and there aren't any used nor are they trying to simulate one.

Now then---a turbofan blade-failure containment test, pretty cool:

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Which greyish blue? Anyways, the lighter one (accoding to Hasegawa) is Intermediate Blue (ofter mis-translated, especially on Gundams, as Medium Blue---Medium and Intermediate have totally different meanings when it comes to American paint colors). FS 35164.

The darker blue--well, that comes out as "Navy" blue. However that's not a standard FS color, and they should mean an FS color based on where that is in Gunze's charts. It's either 35042 sea blue, or 35044 insignia blue. However, just looking at it--I think it looks more like actual non-FS Navy blue. Which is 5-N. Harder to find, but it exists---check ship colors. Real actual Navy blue (as used by the Navy) is not the color found in clothing. It's less blue, less intense.

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Thanks for the super detailed response David.

On this pic, I was referring to the "blue" that surrounds the intake, and yea, I didn't notice there were in fact two tones of blue. It's quite an interesting paint choice they got going here... and almost every F-2 photo I've seen brandishes those colors.

f2.JPG

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Just a note---F-2s have always looked a little "bluer" to me than Intermediate Blue. I'd start with Intermediate Blue, and add a few drops of a pure, bright blue. (same with the other blue--none of the 3 blues I listed are an exact match IMHO)

Kind of ironic that a Japanese company making a model of a Japanese plane is trying to match to US paints... (but the basic fact that the US makes most fighter jets nowadays means they have US paint and that's what the model paint companies make---the F-2 is kind of an oddity in having Japanese paint and construction---though I am surprised Gunze seems to have never made a dedicated "F-2 blues" set of colors---there's many aircraft-specific paints out there----and a zillion sets just for specific Gundams)

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Today's the 40th anniversary of the 747's first flight.

And the 787 still hasn't flown (I couldn't let David keep a near monopoly on this page).

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And the 787 still hasn't flown (I couldn't let David keep a near monopoly on this page).

And the only real question is will the A350 fly before it or not.

This 787 deal is turning out to be an even bigger disaster for Boeing than the A380. Apparently, Boeing learned absolutely nothing from the A380 debacle.

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F-22 intakes are like the F-15, in that they're grey for the first couple of feet, then go to white. Walk-around (useful for everything but the intake interiors) http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/michae...k/f-22a_04-066/

More 747 stuff to celebrate its birthday-----something never before photographed, and rarely even seen----a 747's bow-wave:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6472254

PS--787 and A380 are nothing compared to the A400M. THAT is a screwed-up program. It will set the record for longest gap between initial construction/roll-out/first flight/service entry.

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F-22 intakes are like the F-15, in that they're grey for the first couple of feet, then go to white. Walk-around (useful for everything but the intake interiors) http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/michae...k/f-22a_04-066/

More 747 stuff to celebrate its birthday-----something never before photographed, and rarely even seen----a 747's bow-wave:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6472254

PS--787 and A380 are nothing compared to the A400M. THAT is a screwed-up program. It will set the record for longest gap between initial construction/roll-out/first flight/service entry.

Thanks Dave. I guess I'll have to wing it for the separation line... 1 cm might be spot on.

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F-22 intake separation line---never easy to see, but look here:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/L...-22A/1423535/L/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/L...-22A/1384596/L/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/L...-22A/1313059/L/

Look at the bottom corner, easier to see. It's pretty deep in. Also, I think the separation line is angled to match the intake lip.

::edit:: Ooh, this is probably the best shot: http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/L...-22A/1327080/L/

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PS--787 and A380 are nothing compared to the A400M. THAT is a screwed-up program. It will set the record for longest gap between initial construction/roll-out/first flight/service entry.

Thats not really a fair comparison, given the A-400 is a military procurement project while the other two are completely commercial ventures. As you well know, the dynamics of managing such a project (particularly a multinational one like the A400), are completely different. There is little or no consultation between the manufacturer and airlines on a commercial design after the initial market studies are complete. Thats completely different from military procurement, when consultations are ongoing throughout the design process and where the specifications change over this time.

For example, there was clear political pressure on the engine choice, which has been a source of troubles for EADS. The PW-Canada engine was perfect for the A-400, and had Canada participated in the procurement it would have been chosen. Canada however dragged its feet, which allowed the French and others to push for the unproven TP400-D6 turboprop. This is a large source of the trouble today. The weight problems are serious, but its really no different than the JSF's Naval variant's weight problem, or any other military procurement programme. Even if the A400 is two to three years overdue thats really not that bad compared to other major military procurement programs. And whats the alternative... rush the program out the door? Remember when Lockheed pushed the C-130J out the door when it wasn't ready and nearly lost the program altogether?

The other big problem with A400 was its original contract, which was the European Union's first attempt at a modern procurement program. Its likely to get better in the future, especially with the creation of the permanent European Defence Agency after the Thessaloniki conference a couple years ago. Two to three years from now I doubt we'll be talking about this, just like we don't talk about the C-130j's failings or the F-22's failing computer architecture.

Edited by Noyhauser
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  • 2 weeks later...

It's that time again----the chronicles of Hoser. http://www.tomcat-sunset.org/forums/index.php?topic=2441

Don't know Hoser? You should. No fictional pilot could ever come close to this real-life F-8 and F-14 pilot. One of many stories:

"If memory serves, when he was a nugget in the squadron flying Crusaders, he was flying wing on his CO while on a training flight along hte California coast; the CO flamed out and ejected. After the CO was clear, this guy decided, what the heck, armed his guns, and shot the doomed plane to pieces!!!

He was called before a disciplinary board of some sort, who tried to be very stern and angry looking. Supposedly the only answer he kept giving was, "It was going down anyway!" After he was dismissed, he left the room and closed the door....then through the closed door he heard the entire room erupt in hysterical laughter."

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It's that time again----the chronicles of Hoser. http://www.tomcat-sunset.org/forums/index.php?topic=2441

Don't know Hoser? You should. No fictional pilot could ever come close to this real-life F-8 and F-14 pilot.

That's for sure, everyone should know Hoser! Man there are some great stories in there. I go back and reread almost the whole thing from time to time and it never gets old.

Good to know you're a fan as well!

Here's some of the best pics from him, please go and read to find out what's the story behind them, it's worth your time!

post-8467-1235475113_thumb.jpg

post-8467-1235475352_thumb.jpg

Edited by hobbes221
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Interesting letter from an Australian MP (Member of Parliament), regarding the US's refusal to sell the F-22 to trusted allies and the possible cancellation of the F-22 by the Obama administration (which I hadn't heard about).

Graham

Australian MP: US Allies Sold Short on New Fighters

24-Feb-2009 19:01 EST

Guest Article by Dr. Dennis Jensen, MP

The US refusal to sell the F-22 Raptor to its main allies is a matter of grave concern to many around the world and is an issue exacerbated by the possible termination of the Raptor project before it even delivers the number of aircraft demanded by the American military itself.

There seem to be no dissenting voices to the view that the Raptor is far and away the best air dominance fighter on the planet.

But key US allies – particularly Australia, Britain, Japan and, although with a very different relationship, Israel – have been told the Raptor is simply too good for them, and that they will have to be content with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (and a hobbled export model at that, to ensure even America’s closest friends remain inferior in the skies).

Now there have been many serious concerns raised about the JSF, and specifically its ability to meet the air defence requirements of some intended client states such as Australia. Some critics suggest this aircraft will never be a match for the new Russian-origin aircraft and air defence systems already proliferating in the Asia-Pacific, and so will fail both as a deterrent and as a counter in any conflict. But even giving the JSF the benefit of the doubt, its staunchest proponents quite openly concede it will be found lacking against the Raptor.

To foist this inferior “Little Brother” of the Raptor on close long-term allies is akin to a motorcycle dealer telling a customer they can buy only a 50cc scooter.

Unfortunately, such light-hearted analogies fail to convey the gravity of the issue.

The block on selling the Raptor to US allies supposedly safeguards America’s national security interests. But US assessments have repeatedly given key allies a clean bill of health in terms of security leaks and, in the case of the Australian military, it was found to pose no greater risk in operating the F-22 than the US Air Force itself. That risk assessment indicated that fighter jet technology passed to Australia might fall into the hands of unauthorized parties through either the downing of aircraft, or through espionage – the same risks faced by the US.

Although the domestic political dimension of decisions such as that which blocks sales of the Raptor to allies, is well understood among America’s allies, it is nonetheless a slap in the face to friends who have been unswerving for many years in their loyalty to the US , and who have paid high prices to maintain the relationship.

Australia, for instance has steadfastly supported the US for decades.

Our troops fought alongside each other in World War One, World War Two, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and now in Afghanistan.

Our intelligence services continue to work hand-in-hand with those of the US, and US-led electronic intelligence gathering operations have always enjoyed Australia’s full and practical support. Only last week, the Australian parliament whole-heartedly backed legislation to recognize the special security status of the Pine Gap facility, a joint intelligence-gathering operation between the US and Australia.

Such cooperation has come at great material and political cost to Australia, but it has been deemed worthwhile to not only maintain but strengthen security ties with the US.

To be told that such support is welcome, but that reciprocal respect will not be forthcoming is, quite frankly, an insult. It would not be surprising if similar sentiments were expressed by other key US allies, particularly Japan.

Furthermore, with the permanent US air combat presence in Asia now confined to a handful of bases on the continent’s periphery, and other states (particularly China and India) rapidly developing their military strength, it is essential America’s allies possess strong air defense systems to maintain regional security and, thus, sustain peace in the region.

The refusal to export the Raptor is an impediment to this objective. The present state of affairs does no credit to any of the parties concerned.

It reflects badly on the US for its shabby treatment of allies which are being told to pay top dollar for inferior military hardware.

And it shames those allies, such as Australia which have pathetically accepted the suggestion they should accept the scraps from America’s table, and pay through the nose for the privilege to do so!

This is the grim future being contemplated by US allies as they await the decision by the new Obama administration by March 1 on whether to terminate the F-22 project.

A decision to end the program will not only be to the detriment of the allies – the US military will also be caught short, with its air power composition in disarray because of a critical shortfall in the number of F-22s it needs to maintain global air superiority, and likely a subsequent increase in the number of inadequate JSFs it does not need and cannot use effectively in any real conflict.

It is a complex issue to be decided in the first weeks of the Obama administration, and there is a risk of it not being given the consideration required amid myriad other concerns, particularly the economic crisis.

So the importance of the matter cannot be overstated. Production of the Raptor must continue. To do otherwise could quite likely cause major shifts in global balances of power, with all the perils that entails. And that is in not in the interests of America or its closest friends.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis Jensen is an Australian Federal Member of Parliament representing a constituency in Perth [Lib – Tangney], and a former defence research scientist.

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Man I haven't heard anything about the F-22 being canned!

On the man topic I feel that the UK, Japan and Australia should be able to buy the F-22, however the only part I disagree on is this...

That risk assessment indicated that fighter jet technology passed to Australia might fall into the hands of unauthorized parties through either the downing of aircraft, or through espionage – the same risks faced by the US.

While it is the same type of risks I feel that there is a higher chance of it happening just due to more aircraft being in more parts of the world as well more people knowing things that others want. But nothing's for free or without risk and I'd rather back those who would (and have) back us.

Does anyone else think that with all the problems that the F-22 faces that there is a good chance of seeing the F-15 get a major upgrade? I'm thinking thrust vectoring engines, maybe around the 40,000lbs range along with a full glass cockpit for starts. And maybe some new-build airframes as well.

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Man I haven't heard anything about the F-22 being canned!

On the man topic I feel that the UK, Japan and Australia should be able to buy the F-22, however the only part I disagree on is this...

While it is the same type of risks I feel that there is a higher chance of it happening just due to more aircraft being in more parts of the world as well more people knowing things that others want. But nothing's for free or without risk and I'd rather back those who would (and have) back us.

Does anyone else think that with all the problems that the F-22 faces that there is a good chance of seeing the F-15 get a major upgrade? I'm thinking thrust vectoring engines, maybe around the 40,000lbs range along with a full glass cockpit for starts. And maybe some new-build airframes as well.

In a word, no. The F-22 doesn't have any "problems." All that remains is the actual cost of the airframes. A new F-15 variant requires development costs and completely new airframes, since all of the F-15A~D stocks have serious structural problems that will force them to retire early. Refurbishing them will just add to expenses. Moreover there is a cultural aversion towards going back to a 1970s technology when the Air Force has the F-22 and the F-35 coming out.

Moreover the risks of technology proliferation is exceptionally low if you consider the countries which want the F-22. Australia, Japan and Israel are probably the only three countries that want the fighter, they have pretty strong safeguards on technology transfer. This will also decrease the fly-away cost of airframes the Air Force choses to buy. Given the advantages, (particularly keeping allies close) I'd say it is likely that you'll see export sales of the F-22 occur.

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Scuttlebutt coming out of the DoD is that Gates will relent and go along with at least 60 more F-22s (for a total of 240 or so). I have to agree with Noyhauser here on exporting the Raptor to other countries. Exporting the F-22 strengthens some long standing allies (which in turns strengthens us), makes the planes cheaper to buy for everyone, and produces a good deal of US jobs to boot (not an insignificant consideration right now).

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Scuttlebutt coming out of the DoD is that Gates will relent and go along with at least 60 more F-22s (for a total of 240 or so). I have to agree with Noyhauser here on exporting the Raptor to other countries. Exporting the F-22 strengthens some long standing allies (which in turns strengthens us), makes the planes cheaper to buy for everyone, and produces a good deal of US jobs to boot (not an insignificant consideration right now).

Agreed totally. In a faltering economy, the fact that there is such a demand for the Raptor would create a considerable increase in production, thereby creating much needed jobs as well.

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I'd sell the F-22 to the UK and Australia for sure, if I was POTUS/congress/SECDEF.

Anyways---want a brand-new Fw190A? You can buy a kit. http://www.lanedesign.com.br/fw190.htm Seriously, that'd get more attention at any airshow than a "real" P-51 etc. (Well, more attention from the real enthusiasts, maybe not so much from those who the P-51 is the ONLY warbird they can name)

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