Revenge of the Sith

[al0324]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

[JKeats]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

I missed Lucas himself, saw the scene with his son, but didn't know that his two daughters were in it. Where were they?

[Hurin]

Hurin, stop falling for the bait  Golgo 13 is doing nothing but baiting you.

I realize that. I'm now just having fun with Duke Man-Dress.

[Hurin]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

I missed Lucas himself, saw the scene with his son, but didn't know that his two daughters were in it. Where were they?

I thought the voice of the medical droid that was explaining Padme's condition to Obi-Wan sounded a lot like Lucas. But I didn't see him.

H

[lt.actionjackson]

My order of best to worst Star Wars movies:

1) Return of the Jedi

2) Revenge of the Sith

3) Attack of the Clones

4) The Phantom Menace

5) The Empire Strikes Back

6) A New Hope

Uxi, I'm just curious as to why or how you could rate TPM before ESB on this list.

[Opus]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

I think what he's saying is that an artist's intent must be taken into account. Now, in the case of meanings and artistic influences, I'm not sure the artist can have the final say because he himself may be unaware of subconscious influences. But, in the case of chronology and plot points, I do think the artist has the final say. You can tell the artist that he has been influenced by Shakespeare, and still believe it even if he says he doesn't think he was. But you can't tell George Lucas that Vader wasn't Luke's father or that a ship that he expressly stated was the Millenium Falcon in fact wasn't. He's the ultimate arbiter of what happened and what he intended to convey. But he can't be the ultimate arbiter of what it means to you.

H

I get what you're saying Hurin, but Mr March's post came across as more of a veiled attempt to insult me as though my individual beliefs somehow made me less of a fan.

[Hurin]

I get what you're saying Hurin, but Mr March's post came across as more of a veiled attempt to insult me as though my individual beliefs somehow made me less of a fan.

Sorry. I didn't realize. I'll butt out.

[al0324]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

I missed Lucas himself, saw the scene with his son, but didn't know that his two daughters were in it. Where were they?

I thought the voice of the medical droid that was explaining Padme's condition to Obi-Wan sounded a lot like Lucas. But I didn't see him.

H

i can't remember the scene, but i recognized the costume designs from the artbook. She was the blue faced one with a lot of cloth over herself. her sister was next to her for one shot.

albert

[Warmaker]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

Lucas is in a scene just before Anakin enters Palpatine's box seat at the "Opera."

He's in the left of the screen wearing a purple outfit with a tall hat that has a sloped top. He's also talking to someone.

After all these years, George finally makes a cameo in one of his Star Wars films.

[al0324]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

Lucas is in a scene just before Anakin enters Palpatine's box seat at the "Opera."

He's in the left of the screen wearing a purple outfit with a tall hat that has a sloped top. He's also talking to someone.

After all these years, George finally makes a cameo in one of his Star Wars films.

you know, he might be talking to his daughter in that scene, cuz i remember seeing her, but not lucas - HAH i missed that one. he was right there.

[Warmaker]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

Look at it this way in regards to "canon."

In the Original Trilogy's beloved Galactic Civil War, the Empire vs Rebel Alliance, the story is about a hunted Rebellion trying to free the galaxy of Palpatine's Empire, which has a massive military and the resources and manpower to back it up. The Jedi for all intents and purposes, are dead. Master Yoda & Obi-Wan, the last Jedi, pin their hopes on a young moisture farmer named Luke. Emperor Palpatine rules the galaxy and Darth Vader is his apprentice.

But we all know and love the basic story of the Original Trilogy.

Let me show a series of games where creative liberties were taken but still lovingly adheres to Star Wars canon: The X-Wing series on the PC. Space combat felt like the movies: Rebel fighters were heavily armed & shielded, but few in numbers. The TIEs were fast, agile, decently armed, and were numerous. However, they were unshielded, making them unforgiving. Space battles & skirmishes showed what we would expect anything deriving from the movies: The Rebels fighting hit & run attacks, raids, ambushes against the might of the Imperial Navy, whose numerous, superior warships are constantly hunting for them. Large numbers of TIEs swarming around and desperate Alliance pilots trying to carry out their duties.

The campaigns felt like extensions of the movies... example: A Rebel mission to raid an Imperial supply depot. Your X-Wings must enter the area, quickly clear the local TIEs so the Y-Wings can use their heavy ordnance to destroy the gun platforms. That would clear the way for several transports to enter the area, steal some supplies, and leave. As the transport leaves, the remaining supplies can be destroyed. This must be done quickly since it is expected that Imperial reinforcements will quickly respond, namely a Star Destroyer with a full compliment of starfighters. The Alliance also can't afford needless losses: The player is penalized for high casualties in the raiding force.

Now, let's look at a prime example of blatant disregard to Star Wars canon: Star Wars Galaxies. An MMORPG set in the Original Trilogy's Galactic Civil War.

Here we have the Rebels actually outnumbering the Empire on most servers. AT-ATs are seen LESS often as a solar eclipse in real life, while Droidekas & Super Battle Droids from the Prequels litter the landscape. You can see more people wearing Clone Trooper armor than wearing Stormtrooper armor or other Rebel/Empire uniforms/equipment. In a setting where Jedi are practically dead with so many hopes riding on Luke Skywalker, the game is now full of player Jedi Knights and Masters. Does all this still make it Star Wars?

[Duke Togo]

heh?

How did Tolkein "rewrite" someone elses work? he made his mythology.. his own languages.. created back stories...

Jesus Christ, you guys aren't that ignorant, are you? The Norse Sagas, the Icelandic Sagas... this isn't exactly a secret. Man, this doesn't say much for the US educational system, does it?

[Mr March]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

Not at all. Most of the time the canon policy isn't required because most people wouldn't bother to look that deep into the continuity of Star Wars. But it's nice to have some definitive rules rather than just making stuff up.

[Duke Togo]

Hurin, stop falling for the bait  Golgo 13 is doing nothing but baiting you.

I realize that. I'm now just having fun with Duke Man-Dress.

I stand corrected, you really are that ignorant. Do you guys read any books outside of work based on movies you like?

Ok, everybody who didn't know that Tolkien heavily based the Rings trilogy on the Sagas come forth and admit their ignorance. You should not be ashamed, because you have now been educated.

And just to make sure, everybody here knows that Star Wars is basically a re-imaging of Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress", right? Ok, good, just checking.

[Opus]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

Look at it this way in regards to "canon."

In the Original Trilogy's beloved Galactic Civil War, the Empire vs Rebel Alliance, the story is about a hunted Rebellion trying to free the galaxy of Palpatine's Empire, which has a massive military and the resources and manpower to back it up. The Jedi for all intents and purposes, are dead. Master Yoda & Obi-Wan, the last Jedi, pin their hopes on a young moisture farmer named Luke. Emperor Palpatine rules the galaxy and Darth Vader is his apprentice.

But we all know and love the basic story of the Original Trilogy.

Let me show a series of games where creative liberties were taken but still lovingly adheres to Star Wars canon: The X-Wing series on the PC. Space combat felt like the movies: Rebel fighters were heavily armed & shielded, but few in numbers. The TIEs were fast, agile, decently armed, and were numerous. However, they were unshielded, making them unforgiving. Space battles & skirmishes showed what we would expect anything deriving from the movies: The Rebels fighting hit & run attacks, raids, ambushes against the might of the Imperial Navy, whose numerous, superior warships are constantly hunting for them. Large numbers of TIEs swarming around and desperate Alliance pilots trying to carry out their duties.

The campaigns felt like extensions of the movies... example: A Rebel mission to raid an Imperial supply depot. Your X-Wings must enter the area, quickly clear the local TIEs so the Y-Wings can use their heavy ordnance to destroy the gun platforms. That would clear the way for several transports to enter the area, steal some supplies, and leave. As the transport leaves, the remaining supplies can be destroyed. This must be done quickly since it is expected that Imperial reinforcements will quickly respond, namely a Star Destroyer with a full compliment of starfighters. The Alliance also can't afford needless losses: The player is penalized for high casualties in the raiding force.

Now, let's look at a prime example of blatant disregard to Star Wars canon: Star Wars Galaxies. An MMORPG set in the Original Trilogy's Galactic Civil War.

Here we have the Rebels actually outnumbering the Empire on most servers. AT-ATs are seen LESS often as a solar eclipse in real life, while Droidekas & Super Battle Droids from the Prequels litter the landscape. You can see more people wearing Clone Trooper armor than wearing Stormtrooper armor or other Rebel/Empire uniforms/equipment. In a setting where Jedi are practically dead with so many hopes riding on Luke Skywalker, the game is now full of player Jedi Knights and Masters. Does all this still make it Star Wars?

If that's Star Wars or not is for you to decide. I enjoyed playing X-Wing. Untill I got the strategy guide, which is written like a short novel, I just considered it a game but with the charachters and story elements added by the book it seems more like a plausable part of the continuity to me. I don't know anything about Galaxies but if the players feel like that's Star Wars to them then good for them. It doesn't change my perception of what Star Wars is to me.

I suppose that by my logic it's OK to obsess over things being canon as well if that's what you choose. I just think you shouldn't limit yourself to thinking what you're told to think.

[Duke Togo]

I don't know anything about Galaxies but if the players feel like that's Star Wars to them then good for them.

Actually, from what I understand, most players feel that its crap.

[Mr March]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

I think what he's saying is that an artist's intent must be taken into account. Now, in the case of meanings and artistic influences, I'm not sure the artist can have the final say because he himself may be unaware of subconscious influences. But, in the case of chronology and plot points, I do think the artist has the final say. You can tell the artist that he has been influenced by Shakespeare, and still believe it even if he says he doesn't think he was. But you can't tell George Lucas that Vader wasn't Luke's father or that a ship that he expressly stated was the Millenium Falcon in fact wasn't. He's the ultimate arbiter of what happened and what he intended to convey. But he can't be the ultimate arbiter of what it means to you.

H

I get what you're saying Hurin, but Mr March's post came across as more of a veiled attempt to insult me as though my individual beliefs somehow made me less of a fan.

The question asked was why canon matters so much and I supplied an answer. No personal attack was present.

[Warmaker]

I don't know anything about Galaxies but if the players feel like that's Star Wars to them then good for them.

Actually, from what I understand, most players feel that its crap.

And I am a current player.

I still wonder why the hell I'm still aboard the leaking ship sometimes. Maybe I have a liking to pain. I dunno...

[Opus]

Hurin, stop falling for the bait  Golgo 13 is doing nothing but baiting you.

I realize that. I'm now just having fun with Duke Man-Dress.

I stand corrected, you really are that ignorant. Do you guys read any books outside of work based on movies you like?

Ok, everybody who didn't know that Tolkien heavily based the Rings trilogy on the Sagas come forth and admit their ignorance. You should not be ashamed, because you have now been educated.

And just to make sure, everybody here knows that Star Wars is basically a re-imaging of Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress", right? Ok, good, just checking.

The Duke is on to something here. There's a letter Tolkien wrote to his editor in the front of the Silmarillion that basically states where the models for the different societies of middle came from. Celts, Norsemen and the such. Things like the Dwarven Runes are just a reworking of the Elder Futhark Runes used by most of Europe at some point. There's even some JudeoChristian influence in there with the all powerful creator of the universe and his fallen lieutenant bent on evil.

I think the difference between Lucas and Tolkien is that Tolkien openly admited his influences. It's the readers that have built him up.

[Opus]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

So what you're saying is that real fans are like sheep who need to be told what to think rather than deciding for themselves?

I think what he's saying is that an artist's intent must be taken into account. Now, in the case of meanings and artistic influences, I'm not sure the artist can have the final say because he himself may be unaware of subconscious influences. But, in the case of chronology and plot points, I do think the artist has the final say. You can tell the artist that he has been influenced by Shakespeare, and still believe it even if he says he doesn't think he was. But you can't tell George Lucas that Vader wasn't Luke's father or that a ship that he expressly stated was the Millenium Falcon in fact wasn't. He's the ultimate arbiter of what happened and what he intended to convey. But he can't be the ultimate arbiter of what it means to you.

H

I get what you're saying Hurin, but Mr March's post came across as more of a veiled attempt to insult me as though my individual beliefs somehow made me less of a fan.

The question asked was why canon matters so much and I supplied an answer. No personal attack was present.

That's cool. Sometimes it's hard to tell in print.

[Uxi]

My order of best to worst Star Wars movies:

1) Return of the Jedi

2) Revenge of the Sith

3) Attack of the Clones

4) The Phantom Menace

5) The Empire Strikes Back

6) A New Hope

Uxi, I'm just curious as to why or how you could rate TPM before ESB on this list.

But you don't have a question about me ranking Jedi or Clones higher? Or Sith?

I must preface by saying that most of he rankings are all "by a hair." I've found all of the movies to be pretty consistent in their element. Good popcorn fairy-tale flicks in a sci-fi setting with bits of mythology assimilated from all over the place.

[Duke Togo]

I think the difference between Lucas and Tolkien is that Tolkien openly admited his influences. It's the readers that have built him up.

Lucas has been talking about "The Hidden Fortress" for years. I don't know if he could get any more open about it.

[Uxi]

Tolkien and Lucas DID similar things and assimilated existing mythologies into the synthesis of their own works. Tolkien used his passion for linguistics to flavor the cultures of his work while Lucas used his passion for filmaking. There the similarities end, both with each other and with the inspired works. These works are unique, though, and not derivative of the earlier bodies.

[Hurin]

Tolkien and Lucas DID similar things and assimilated existing mythologies into the synthesis of their own works. Tolkien used his passion for linguistics to flavor the cultures of his work while Lucas used his passion for filmaking. There the similarities end, both with each other and with the inspired works. These works are unique, though, and not derivative of the earlier bodies.

Now who's taking the bait?

Duke Man-Dress isn't saying anything all of us don't already know. As a Tolkien afficianado from well before the movies were even a gleam in Peter Jackson's eye, and someone who's read The Silmarillion several times and even parts of the History of Middle-earth (early manuscripts edited by Tolkien's son). . . yes, of course there are influences (Beowulf, etc.). Duh!

But Togo is obviously overstating things in order to provoke. And thus just making a moron out of himself yet again.

The irony of someone (over)stating something so blatantly obious while pontificating on Tolkien to a guy who goes by the name of Hurin and who has a website named Dor-lomin.com is just priceless.

Telling us that Tolkien was influenced by prior myths and literature isn't exactly a revelation. Not to mention, your intitial point does nothing to address the post that prompted it (that Lucas used to take the consistency of his world as seriously as Tolkien did his). You're just (lamely) trying to stir up trouble. But, then again, that's just what you do.

H

[Duke Togo]

Tolkien and Lucas DID similar things and assimilated existing mythologies into the synthesis of their own works. Tolkien used his passion for linguistics to flavor the cultures of his work while Lucas used his passion for filmaking. There the similarities end, both with each other and with the inspired works. These works are unique, though, and not derivative of the earlier bodies.

I strongly disagree. Tolkien took many of his characters from the Sagas, including their names. He also co-opted many of the tales, quests, and battles from these works. Hell, the Ring isn't even his, he took that from them too.

[grss1982]

just wanted to post something:

Darth Vader helmets in real life?

[Duke Togo]

just wanted to post something:

Darth Vader helmets in real life?

Halloween surplus?

[mikeszekely]

anyone seen lucas in the film? i caught a glimpse of his two daughters and jett lucas running around swinging a light saber in epIII.

Actually, it's a little irritating that his daughters are still in it. Bai Ling was supposed to be in it, too, but they cut her scene. She claimed it was because she posed for Playboy, and Lucasfilm responded by saying, "No, it was just how the movie got edited. Lucas' daughter was supposed to be in it, and her scene got cut."

And yet there they are.

[lt.actionjackson]

But you don't have a question about me ranking Jedi or Clones higher? Or Sith?

Actually, yes I do, but some people actually *shudder* like the ewoks (or choose to ignore them). I guess I'm just suprised you ranked ESB below TPM.

[Jinnai]

She claimed it was because she posed for Playboy, and Lucasfilm responded by saying, "No, it was just how the movie got edited. Lucas' daughter was supposed to be in it, and her scene got cut."

And yet there they are.

Actually, the reply from Lucas was the scene where Bai Ling got cut also featured Lucas' daughter, as the scene in general was regarding the formation of the Rebellion.

There is far too much cut from this film. I love it to death, yes, and I know what got cut and what got let in. Perhaps due to my enjoyment of Ep1 and 2, plus knowing what got cut from Ep3, made me enjoy it even more, and make perfect sense of the film.

[mikeszekely]

She claimed it was because she posed for Playboy, and Lucasfilm responded by saying, "No, it was just how the movie got edited.  Lucas' daughter was supposed to be in it, and her scene got cut."

And yet there they are.

Actually, the reply from Lucas was the scene where Bai Ling got cut also featured Lucas' daughter, as the scene in general was regarding the formation of the Rebellion.

There is far too much cut from this film. I love it to death, yes, and I know what got cut and what got let in. Perhaps due to my enjoyment of Ep1 and 2, plus knowing what got cut from Ep3, made me enjoy it even more, and make perfect sense of the film.

Well, here's hoping for a special 2-disc extended version on DVD, then. Especially since I thought the pacing was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off in the movie. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but it was like they were trying to cram too much movie into too short an edit. A lot of the coversation in the book that went into more detail about Anakin's feelings and Palpatine's manipulations were non-existant, and a lot of scenes that were really detailed, like Obi-wan's fight with Greivous, played out in just a few moments on screen. In a way, Revenge of the Sith is like a two hour montage, showing the highlights of what could have been a great three+ hour long movie.

And you know, for all the relevant stuff they did cut, like Senators petitioning Palpatine to give up some of his power or the beginnings of the Rebellion, they just had to show the Wookies fighting the droid army on Kashyyyk, even though it was the most worthless scene in the whole movie. Aside from getting Yoda off Coruscant whenever Anakin joined the Sith and attacked the Jedi Temple, it had no relevence to the story whatsoever. It was more fan service than anything else... like Lucas sat around and though, "You know, the fans love the Wookies, especially Chewie. I'll work them into the movie somehow... hell, I'll even show their homeworld!"

[Chewie]

Now, let's look at a prime example of blatant disregard to Star Wars canon: Star Wars Galaxies. An MMORPG set in the Original Trilogy's Galactic Civil War.

Here we have the Rebels actually outnumbering the Empire on most servers. AT-ATs are seen LESS often as a solar eclipse in real life, while Droidekas & Super Battle Droids from the Prequels litter the landscape. You can see more people wearing Clone Trooper armor than wearing Stormtrooper armor or other Rebel/Empire uniforms/equipment. In a setting where Jedi are practically dead with so many hopes riding on Luke Skywalker, the game is now full of player Jedi Knights and Masters. Does all this still make it Star Wars?

About that. It was stated last year by a game developer that they are using the univerese how they wish. It isn' a blatent disregard...they are doing just like the Infinities Comics did. They are making their own story from a piece of the Star Wars Universe.

And as for me being wrong about Palpatine and his 'ruse', read the novel. He was hurting himself more to make Anakin think Windu was in the wrong. His face WAS distorted by the lightning. It wasn't make up. Direct quote from Palpatine while looking in the mirror "Ah, so the mask becomes the man." Ian was quoting what he thought was going down not what was intended to be seen.

[Max Jenius]

Hey, everyone's doin it;

1) Revenge of the Sith (I love this movie. Everything that has been building...)

2) Empire Strikes Back (As with ROTS; I could feel emotion. Esp. during Luke vs Vader)

3) The Phantom Menace (Qui-Gon, my second favorite Jedi. The Jedi have purpose.)

4) Attack of the Clones (Sappy loves scenes kill it, but the birth of the Empire is my hook)

5) Return of the Jedi (Ok... in the end... but for the most part boring.)

6) A New Hope (Up until the last space battle, this movie bores me. The SE versions help add life to the world, but Luke really bugs me in this movie. Alec Guinness makes me have a soft spot for the film though, I think he really got the character.)

Don't get me wrong though, I do like all of the movies more than the average film. I placed Episode I above most of them because well... it shows how the Jedi were part of the problem to begin with. Although, the battle was lame, it wasn't intended to be the high-stakes fight like at the end of ROTJ or ANH... it was a minor skirmish that had implications throughout all 6 films and sets the stage for how the Sith came to power.

[Warmaker]

My list:

1) Empire Strikes Back (Still the best SW movie)

2) A New Hope (The Original)

3) Revenge of the Sith (Flawed, but still very enjoyable to watch)

4) Attack of the Clones (Jango Fett, Clone Troopers. Kaminoans I thought were cool)

5) Return of the Jedi (Good things here, but the Ewoks ruin the movie)

6) The Phantom Menace (Few redeeming qualities)

[Hurin]

Ah, we're updating our suck-o-meters!

Hurin's Star Wars Suck-o-meter

100 - NO SUCKAGE

95 -

90 - Empire Strikes Back

85 -

80 - A New Hope

75 -

70 - Revenge of the Sith

65 -

60 - Return of the Jedi

55 - Attack of the Clones

50 -

45 -

40 -

35 -

30 - The Phantom Menace

25 -

20 -

15 -

10 -

05 -

00 - FULL SUCKAGE

I believe that when we were making these Suck-o-Meters in that thread, I said I was hoping for a score of 80 for Sith. It came in right around there in my book, at 70. I moved ANH down a notch though too upon further reflection. More to give Empire more credit than to actually penalize ANH