Macross and religion

[samuraid]

From evidence in the original Macross series, what religious denominations were Hikaru and Minmay?

[samuraid]

Not that it matters- just interesting...

[Gabe Q]

Well, I don't know about Minmay and Hikaru but I know Max was a Catholic. He did the sign of the cross when Kakizaki bit the dust.

Poor Kakizaki...

[Göönk]

Not that it matters- just interesting...

I think nobody knows, because Religion is taboo. It hurts sensibility, and commercially speaking, it only brings bad things. I believe Macross was designed, from he start, to be international, and they didn't put any touch of religion in it. Even Zentraedi are region-less.

In addition, the fact that human may be genetically built by the Protocultures is against every religion "holy books" I think

[Sumdumgai]

Hikaru followed the 80's hero religion, with classic poofy hair, loser-ish attitude, and bungling his way to the top. And suffers from the "I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down..." syndrome.

This religion later evolved into the 90's-00's hero religion of "I'm screwed up and have emotional problems, something/someone traumatised me when I was a kid, I'm cold or loser-ish (I am a weenie syndrome), and I go berserk when I get flashbacks of my trauma. Did I mention that I have crap for self-esteem?" (Parn, Shinji, Shin...)

[Southcross]

Hikaru followed the 80's hero religion, with classic poofy hair, loser-ish attitude, and bungling his way to the top. And suffers from the "I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down..." syndrome.

This religion later evolved into the 90's-00's hero religion of "I'm screwed up and have emotional problems, something/someone traumatised me when I was a kid, I'm cold or loser-ish (I am a weenie syndrome), and I go berserk when I get flashbacks of my trauma. Did I mention that I have crap for self-esteem?" (Parn, Shinji, Shin...)

ROTFLAMO! :breath: :weeze: :pass out:

[Druna Skass]

What religion is Kawamori himself? I've always though Christian with that whole part with Hikaru crossing himself, and all the Christmas stuff towards the end. Or was that all some other top staff member's influence?

[KingNor]

if they're celebrating christmas i guess they could be any denomination of christian.

unless they were just celebrating santa :-)

[wolfx]

Japanese in general don't have any REAL religion. Their "religion" is somewhat from Buddhism roots but it kinda deviated into strange ness and thus you get shrine maidens, lucky charms, wishing wells etc. Its more of a cultural thing than a religion thing if you get what i mean.

Christianity is probably the least penetrated religion in Japan. Historically the Portugeses spread the religion among the samurai but they christian samurai were quickly purged and wiped out.

So about Kawamori, doesn't mean he does some Christian things in the anime makes him a Christian. Putting Christianity in anime probably has much reason as putting ENGRISH in the songs and names in the anime.

[KingNor]

Japanese in general don't have any REAL religion. Their "religion" is somewhat from Buddhism roots but it kinda deviated into strange ness and thus you get shrine maidens, lucky charms, wishing wells etc. Its more of a cultural thing than a religion thing if you get what i mean.

Christianity is probably the least penetrated religion in Japan. Historically the Portugeses spread the religion among the samurai but they christian samurai were quickly purged and wiped out.

So about Kawamori, doesn't mean he does some Christian things in the anime makes him a Christian. Putting Christianity in anime probably has much reason as putting ENGRISH in the songs and names in the anime.

i thought christianity was widespread in japan...

reguardless.. minmay is chinese (right?) misa is and claudia are american, gloval is russian (in robotech, i dunno about macross) roy is american, only really hikaru, kazikaki (sp, sorry) are japanise, i dont' know about max...

so dispite the notion that japan isn't christian, doesn't mean a good part of the crew were also not christian.

yay double negatives

[Zero Enna]

Kawamori follows shintoism.

And you will see a lot of shinto elements watching Earth Girl Arjuna.

Hikaru's religion i don't know, but focker's religion is the 'I-will-kick-some-asses'ism. hehehehehe.

[kanata67]

Hikaru followed the 80's hero religion, with classic poofy hair, loser-ish attitude, and bungling his way to the top. And suffers from the "I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down..." syndrome.

zen/toa-ist ... more tao

This religion later evolved into the 90's-00's hero religion of "I'm screwed up and have emotional problems, something/someone traumatised me when I was a kid, I'm cold or loser-ish (I am a weenie syndrome), and I go berserk when I get flashbacks of my trauma. Did I mention that I have crap for self-esteem?" (Parn, Shinji, Shin...)

pragmatism

I'd guess a polytheisic discordian tao-ist. All hail discordia... all hail eris

[JELEINEN]

Most Japanese follow both Shinto and Buddhism. Less than 1% of the country is Christian. They celebrate Christmas in the same way most Americans do: it's a purely secular and commercial holiday in which you spend a lot of money on gifts. They even have their own traditions for it such as eating fried chicken on Christmas Eve and eating cake on Christmas day.

Wolfx is correct that Jesuit missionaries brought by the Portuguese did make a large number of converts in Japan during the 16th century. But, the Tokugawa kicked them out and made Christianity illegal in the early part of the 17th century. An interesting side note is that shortly after the Meiji Restoration, a small number of families in the hinterlands stepped forward and admitted that they'd been practicing Christianity in secret for the last 250 or so years prior.

As for religion in Macross, I'd say that most of the characters were created without any thought as to their faith. This is fine, as far as I'm concerned, because it has no affect on the story what-so-ever.

[JELEINEN]

Kawamori follows shintoism.

And you will see a lot of shinto elements watching Earth Girl Arjuna.

By that logic, Kawamori is Hindu as well, because Arjuna has a large amount of Hindu elements in it. Sorry, but you're falling into the falacy of judging an author's beliefs by the beliefs of his characters.

[seventh-moon]

The only thing there is evedence in robotech that there is religion amungst, Rick, Max, Miria, Ben, Roy, Lisa, Claudia, is that they have episode 35-85 "season Greatings". science this is an american show, they celebrate christmass like every christian in the us.

there is no evidence In Macross, exept episode 35-36 (the name slipes me at the moment) there celebrating christmass like all japanese, even though there in alaska. I know this much, max is Catholic, and european thata about it.

[dna]

Isn't Xmas in Japan like Valentines Day here in America? I've heard that it was a big party holiday.

[Agent ONE]

Nobody is religious in Macross, other than Max. Religion doesn't exist in most anime/SciFi about the future.

[Pat Payne]

Isn't Xmas in Japan like Valentines Day here in America?  I've heard that it was a big party holiday.

Sorta. From what I had seen, Christmas is a romantic holiday, where you take your GF out for a nice dinner and then treat her to some Christmans cake. Of course, there's also the giving gifts to everyone you know element. But like here, it's lost it's original identity as a religious holiday as other layers have been poured on. (Interesting, useless side note time : Here in the United States, in some of the original colonies, Christmas was banned by some of the original Puritan settlers as being unseemly to "celebrate the physical incarnation of Jesus rather than his death on the cross and the world's redemption." It remained banned up until the beginning of the 18th Century in some locales.)

As to the larger question of religion in Macross, there's no real evidence for any character's religious leaninings (or lack thereof), excpet for Max, and all that shows is that he's Christian. (What, you don't think Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox cross themselves too?) Macross really isn't a religious show, and to inteject it would have diluted the messages of the show. Although it would be a scary thought to see a fundamentalist preacher (of any religion) get the attention of a significant number of Zentradi...

Edited February 24, 2004 by Pat Payne

[pfunk]

wasnt that Hikaru who gave the sign of god (cristian) in the TV series? i didnt think it was Max. when Mr K,cannon fodder died

[JB0]

wasnt that Hikaru who gave the sign of god (cristian) in the TV series? i didnt think it was Max. when Mr K,cannon fodder died

It was Max.

Hikaru flipped the visor on his helmet up(the one and only episode he uses the visor).

[GodMedia]

Whatever faith any of the characters may have had at the onset of the story had to be severely challenged by the events and discoveries surrounding the ASS-1, and the subsequent knowledge of the Zentraedi and the Protoculture.

If Hikaru and Misa had been Christians, there would have been a great struggle of faith when they learned that they came not from God who made all things in accordance with Genesis 1:1. Christianity teaches what the secular world labels as "creationism" and is vinidicated by the overwhelming scientific evidence that has time and again disproved Darwinism and the whole "evolution theory." As Christians, Hikaru and Misa would have recognized that the ASS-1 and all that it brought with it to the Earth were in fact tools of Satan designed to deceive them into forsaking the one true God and the truth of His Word: the Bible. They could never have counted themselves as truly, wholly believers if they were willing to embrace so-called "realities" that were not in line with the scriptures.

Max's sign of the cross at Kakizaki's death showed him to have some kind of Christian faith, but it is not clear to what extent. Even the hardest atheist will cry out, "Oh God" or "Jesus Christ" in a moment of great emotion, but it is an empty gesture without the faith behind it to give it any meaning, let alone significant power. The fact that the gestures are Christian only bears testimony of the truth of God, not that the one making the gesture is consciously aware of that truth, nor that they embrace it, nor to what degree they embrace it if they do.

Since the story is fictional, it seems okay that faith in Christianity can co-exist with that which completely refutes the truth of scripture. In reality, however, the appearance of the ASS-1, et al, would be met with, at least, great skepticism by believers and, sadly, many of the more "fundamentalist" types would even come out in force to "stand against the wiles of the devil."

The fact that Christians know that anything not in line with the scriptures is demonic and evil, is quite probably the impetus for the unification wars that we see in Macross Zero. World Unification, embracing of alien species and technologies, these are anti-Christian and true believers would go to nearly any lengths to combat these things. Thus, even if Hikaru, Misa, and even Max were Christian by tradition, they would not be truly Christian by definition and their faith would be more a matter of tradition than of any true conviction.

[Agent ONE]

...

The fact that Christians know that anything not in line with the scriptures is demonic and evil, is quite probably the impetus for the unification wars that we see in Macross Zero. World Unification, embracing of alien species and technologies, these are anti-Christian and true believers would go to nearly any lengths to combat these things...

Yeah, but MZero isn't about that at all... It is about Cold War USSR and friends wanting the controll of overtechnology. Religion has nothing to do with it.

[bsu legato]

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Well...if you exclude the Maya natives, yeah. But their beliefs seem to be kind of important to Zero, don't they?

[Agent ONE]

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Well...if you exclude the Maya natives, yeah. But their beliefs seem to be kind of important to Zero, don't they?

Yeah, except for that... I guess we should start worshiping the bird man.

[ewilen]

GodMedia: It's one thing to talk about the religious backgrounds of the characters in Macross. It's quite another to try to define Christianity, and what is "truly" Christian on an anime discussion board. Not to mention saying that "true Christians" must believe in "creationism".

AgentONE: On the contrary, I think it's quite likely that the Anti-UN consists of all sorts of groups opposed to the world government. They could include religious fanatics as well as totalitarian dictators, and even neonazis and the like.

[Agent ONE]

GodMedia: It's one thing to talk about the religious backgrounds of the characters in Macross. It's quite another to try to define Christianity, and what is "truly" Christian on an anime discussion board. Not to mention saying that "true Christians" must believe in "creationism".

AgentONE: On the contrary, I think it's quite likely that the Anti-UN consists of all sorts of groups opposed to the world government. They could include religious fanatics as well as totalitarian dictators, and even neonazis and the like.

Are you sure!!?? The Macross universe (unification war period) is based on 80's politics... THAT I am sure of. I don't think religion has anything to do with it.

I was under the impression it was about Commies Vs. Capitalists.

[ewilen]

Well, if you look at the Chronology we can get a few facts about global politics leading up to Space War One. There was a UN Space Agency in place when the alien space ship was detected on a collision course with Earth. Some factions wanted to destroy it before impact, using nuclear weapons.

The entry of the ship into Earth atmosphere destroyed Moscow & Stockholm and caused damage across Europe and Canada. Afterwards,

Due to the great destructive damage, abnormal weather, and starvation caused in all parts of America, Russia [soviet Union], Europe, and [the rest of] the world by the shock waves accompanying the fall of the ASS-1, the existence of aliens is treated as top secret until the confusion is brought under control. What begins as an emergency summit meeting between America and Russia [soviet Union] becomes a summit meeting between every nation

Afterwards, "In preparation for alien warfare, a plan is drafted to unify the countries of Earth and to establish an Earth United Nations Government." OTEC is formed shortly thereafter with joint "Japanese-American-Russian[soviet]-[West] German-English-French collaboration". Then in 2000,

June

    The existence of aliens officially announced (except for their size and other details which are kept top secret). Following this, framing plan for Earth United Nations Government officially announced.

July

    Outbreak of dispute in People's Republic of Garalia in the Middle East. The frequent disputes and internal conflicts occurring hereafter in all areas of the world become collectively known as the United Nations Wars.

I'll skip over the rest and note that the Anti-UN seems to be striking all over the place and nukes St. Petersburg at one point. They seem more like a collection of terrorists (albeit very well-armed) or subnational factions than an international alliance. Also, at http://macross.anime.net/feedback/index.html we have

[Question:] ...if the Pochov [class] submarines and SV-51 were made by Russia, does that mean Russia is part of the Anti-United Nations?

[Answer:] ...despite their names, the creators did not state that the Pochov class submarines and SV-51 were made by Russia itself. The creators have noted that Russia (or the former Soviet Union) is part of the new United Nations government -- although Russia had separatist elements and rebellions like other countries.

Now, it could be that some of this was revised from an version with a more traditional 80's-type WWIII scenario, but I don't think so. I remember back when I saw Robotech in the 80's, they described the whole thing as a "Global Civil War". You can apply the usual caveats about the source; nevertheless, it seems the creators wanted to have a much more mixed up kind of conflict. And going forward to Zero, we can see at the beginning that Shin's traumatic memories come from some kind of civil strife rather than a typical battlefield.

[Beltane70]

Nobody is religious in Macross, other than Max. Religion doesn't exist in most anime/SciFi about the future.

I think you're just speculating there. There is nothing in the show to prove that no one is religious or not. Just because we don't see the characters practicing religion (except for Max), doesn't mean that they don't. After all, we never see the characters use the bathroom or perform various other day-to-day chores, but we know that they do.

[Agent ONE]

Great post ewilen!!!

I am a better informed man... Still though nothing about religion though.

[Agent ONE]

Nobody is religious in Macross, other than Max. Religion doesn't exist in most anime/SciFi about the future.

I think you're just speculating there. There is nothing in the show to prove that no one is religious or not. Just because we don't see the characters practicing religion (except for Max), doesn't mean that they don't. After all, we never see the characters use the bathroom or perform various other day-to-day chores, but we know that they do.

In DYRL Hikaru bones Misa and they aren't married, nobody talks about what God's gonna think... They are more thinking, 'hey I hope we live through this war.'

Anyway... sure you don't see many characters doing chores or other daily things, but in the case or religion... look at the entire concept of Macross... Aliens created humanity (as seen in DYRL and in MZero) so God had nothing to do with.

Furthrumore look at Star Trek... no religion, in fact in one of the movies Kirk killed God, who turned out to be a scamming fraud anyway. You have to keep in mind that throughout history as civilizations advance religion becomes more of a tradition and less of a truth. Science answers our questions, movies about the future embrace this by eliminating religion totally, other than possibly traditions sake. Usually to passify the old people.

[ewilen]

On the whole I agree with your sociological theory. However, I have to say that religion hardly ever shows up in any mainstream entertainment, especially action movies, because it alienates a good portion of the audience--both the nonreligious and the ones whose religion doesn't get screen time (or, worse, gets shown in a negative light).

[GodMedia]

GodMedia: It's one thing to talk about the religious backgrounds of the characters in Macross. It's quite another to try to define Christianity, and what is "truly" Christian on an anime discussion board. Not to mention saying that "true Christians" must believe in "creationism".

AgentONE: On the contrary, I think it's quite likely that the Anti-UN consists of all sorts of groups opposed to the world government. They could include religious fanatics as well as totalitarian dictators, and even neonazis and the like.

If you're going to go around speculating on the faith of a character, then the criteria for determining that faith is the fundamental truths of that faith. I speak from the perspective of a Bible-carrying, Jesus-believing, Spirit-filled and Spirit led CHRISTIAN and I use that BIBLICAL definition of a CHRISTIAN to determine whether or not another person is TRULY CHRISTIAN(that is, 'truly' as defined by the Bible which, last time I checked was the ONLY TRUE MEASURE of what it means to be CHRISTIAN).

If there is some other kind of Christian that is defined by something other than the Bible, I don't know about it. And, if you can't handle that there is truth that you don't want to accept then don't bring up matters of faith on an anime board.

The whole purpose of discussion on this board is to share views and to learn from one another. If you don't want to learn that there are true Bible Christians, and then there are the rest of the world who hope that going by the name of Christian but living without the Bible truth they will somehow slip by and get into heaven, then don't ever get started in a religious topic.

God Bless You!

[JsARCLIGHT]

IMHO most cartoons have a vaccuum of religion so the viewer can insert their own personal beliefs into the show. The cast could have been any religion on the face of the earth and it would not have effected the outcome of the story. What people believe and what they do are two different things... I have seen enough pre-marital pot smoking hard drinking porn reading cuss mouthed Catholics and Muslims in my time to fill a barn, according to their religions they are total sinners and going to hell but they are still nice people.

My point is that one's religion does not make the man just as one man does not make a religion. All religions preach basically the same things anyway: love your neighbor, don't do bad stuff and be a good person in the eyes of whatever thing you praise.

[the white drew carey]

GodMedia: It's one thing to talk about the religious backgrounds of the characters in Macross. It's quite another to try to define Christianity, and what is "truly" Christian on an anime discussion board. Not to mention saying that "true Christians" must believe in "creationism".

AgentONE: On the contrary, I think it's quite likely that the Anti-UN consists of all sorts of groups opposed to the world government. They could include religious fanatics as well as totalitarian dictators, and even neonazis and the like.

If you're going to go around speculating on the faith of a character, then the criteria for determining that faith is the fundamental truths of that faith. I speak from the perspective of a Bible-carrying, Jesus-believing, Spirit-filled and Spirit led CHRISTIAN and I use that BIBLICAL definition of a CHRISTIAN to determine whether or not another person is TRULY CHRISTIAN(that is, 'truly' as defined by the Bible which, last time I checked was the ONLY TRUE MEASURE of what it means to be CHRISTIAN).

If there is some other kind of Christian that is defined by something other than the Bible, I don't know about it. And, if you can't handle that there is truth that you don't want to accept then don't bring up matters of faith on an anime board.

The whole purpose of discussion on this board is to share views and to learn from one another. If you don't want to learn that there are true Bible Christians, and then there are the rest of the world who hope that going by the name of Christian but living without the Bible truth they will somehow slip by and get into heaven, then don't ever get started in a religious topic.

God Bless You!

This thread has crossed the line of what is allowable subject matter.

I myself have strong feelings regarding organised religion, but I don't argue the point here on a message board where political and religious discussion are openly disallowed.

I wish this subject could get back on topic, but it's already served it's purpose anyways. Time to be locked.

May Beer bless us all, every single one of us!

[gnollman]

*snip*

Must be a southerner.... only in the south can you call a person an idiot, and then follow it up with "God bless him" and everything be okay....

In short, I don't think Evangelical comment on religion has a place on Macross World. What you said was pretty much like talking about quantum physics in a third grade classroom... unnecessary, and largely unasked for.