aurance Posted June 21 Posted June 21 When they say “marines” in Macross, are they meaning strictly seaborne troops, delivered by the UN Navy? Or are they including spaceborne forces? If meaning the former, why would they even still exist? Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 21 Posted June 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, aurance said: When they say “marines” in Macross, are they meaning strictly seaborne troops, delivered by the UN Navy? Or are they including spaceborne forces? If meaning the former, why would they even still exist? So... that's a bit of a rabbit hole in its own right since there are seemingly two separate Marine Corps. When the then-newly inaugurated Earth Unification (UN) Government officially commenced business in February 2001, one of the first things they did was to establish the Earth UN Forces to reorganize and integrate the various national militaries of Earth into a cohesive fighting force for planetary defense. The Earth UN Forces originally had four branches: the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, and the Marine Corps. These four conventional forces were exactly what you'd expect given their names. We know relatively little about them, as the story doesn't focus on any of them directly and they show up infrequently in the print lore. However, we know a few details like that the Daedalus-class was developed in large part with the Marines in mind (originally the US Marines who formed the backbone of the UN Marines) and that they had an interest in VFs as a replacement for aging VTOL/STOVL jets used in close air support to have their own VF-0 variant (the VF-0C). The fifth branch, the Spacy (space force) was added two years later in 2003. After the First Space War, things get a little bit weirder and a little bit harder to explain. The New Unification Government takes over for the destroyed Earth Unification Government in 2010 and at some unknown date in 2010 or early 2011 someone in power makes the decision to have portions of the Spacy spun off as separate branches of service: the Spacy Air Force and Spacy Marine Corps. Exactly what the organizational division of responsibilities there is is unclear at best. As far as I am aware, they have never been properly explained. They first appear in the This is Animation book for the Macross Plus OVA in Variable Fighters Aero Report, with the Spacy Air Force subsequently appearing in Macross Plus and the Spacy Marine Corps in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta. The Spacy Marine Corps seems obvious enough. They've got to be ground forces and related air support attached to/transported by the Spacy's fleets. The Spacy Air Force makes less sense. Presumably they're the non-carrier aviation arm of the space forces... but that seems to leave their role overlapping with that of the Air Force, since the one base of theirs that we see directly is planetside. With respect to the "why do they still exist?" part... if Isamu's service record is any indication, there is a fair amount of inter-service mobility (more aligned to the JSDF) in the New UN Forces and there is still some semblance of a blue water navy left given that Isamu serves a brief stint about the UNN Enterprise in 2035. Edited June 21 by Seto Kaiba Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 22 Posted June 22 So... I have a weird bit of esoterica that's been vexing me and I'm wondering if one of the other contributors here might help. In Macross the Ride, Ukyo Kodachi seems to have indulged himself in giving any reasonably plot-relevant ship or mecha a Meaningful Name. Most of them are reasonably straightforward. The YF-27-3/YF-27-5's name and the name of Wisla & Oder were a bit of a struggle because they're misspelled. The one that's still got me stumped is the Macross Galaxy fleet's Riviera-class resort ship... its name エヴナ is either Evna or Evuna. I cannot find a satisfactory reference, either to a place or story, that fits this one, aside from the Town of Evna from L. Frank Baum's Oz series, which doesn't seem to have thematic relevance. Can anyone think of any places or people (from fiction) named "Evna" or "Evuna"? Quote
pengbuzz Posted June 22 Posted June 22 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: So... I have a weird bit of esoterica that's been vexing me and I'm wondering if one of the other contributors here might help. In Macross the Ride, Ukyo Kodachi seems to have indulged himself in giving any reasonably plot-relevant ship or mecha a Meaningful Name. Most of them are reasonably straightforward. The YF-27-3/YF-27-5's name and the name of Wisla & Oder were a bit of a struggle because they're misspelled. The one that's still got me stumped is the Macross Galaxy fleet's Riviera-class resort ship... its name エヴナ is either Evna or Evuna. I cannot find a satisfactory reference, either to a place or story, that fits this one, aside from the Town of Evna from L. Frank Baum's Oz series, which doesn't seem to have thematic relevance. Can anyone think of any places or people (from fiction) named "Evna" or "Evuna"? Coincidentally, there is a book called Ozma of Oz; hearkening back to Ozma in Frontier perhaps? Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 22 Posted June 22 10 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Coincidentally, there is a book called Ozma of Oz; hearkening back to Ozma in Frontier perhaps? Probably not, IMO. The titular character in L. Frank Baum's Ozma of Oz is a woman. Princess Ozma, ruler of the Land of Oz. There's only room for one princess in SMS Skull Platoon, and everyone knows that's Alto. 😜 Ozma Lee's name is probably a reference/homage... but not to L. Frank Baum's Oz series. He's probably named for the titular character in Osamu Tezuka's 1961-1964 sci-fi manga series Ozma Taichou (オズマ隊長, lit. Commanding Officer Ozma). The rest of his unit does insistently refer to him in exactly those terms. Quote
pengbuzz Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) On 6/22/2025 at 1:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Probably not, IMO. The titular character in L. Frank Baum's Ozma of Oz is a woman. Princess Ozma, ruler of the Land of Oz. There's only room for one princess in SMS Skull Platoon, and everyone knows that's Alto. 😜 On 6/22/2025 at 1:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Ozma Lee's name is probably a reference/homage... but not to L. Frank Baum's Oz series. He's probably named for the titular character in Osamu Tezuka's 1961-1964 sci-fi manga series Ozma Taichou (オズマ隊長, lit. Commanding Officer Ozma). The rest of his unit does insistently refer to him in exactly those terms. Ah; not familiar with that one, I'm afraid. Edited June 24 by pengbuzz Quote
TG Remix Posted June 24 Posted June 24 On 6/20/2025 at 3:06 PM, Seto Kaiba said: There's never really been a good explanation for why some of those atmosphere-focused designs exist. The VF-4's Navy variant is a great example of that. Who the hell needed that? Presumably water bound planets like Eden-3? Or probably any government that has enough local threats planetside that it constituted forces like a Navy or an Army. Some populations are gonna be bigger then others after all, and the more people the more of a chance they want to act up. There's also some merit with some of the standard VF types as well, the VF-5000 was designed as a lightweight air superiority fighter to work in tandem with the ground/local based VA-3, it just so happened that it was popular enough to be a next-generation fighter alongside the VF-4. Then there's why the VF-11 was chosen as the winner of the Nova Project over the VF-14; the latter has a longer cruise speed, sturdy, and has a lot of empty space in the airframe to make it easily upgradable, but the Thunderbolt was valued for it's versatility in all fields, whether be in space or in the atmosphere. Being designed as a carrier-borne aircraft also helps its case, where the VF-14 struggled in that field. Perhaps that's a reason why the UN designed the Varauta Army ships aside from giving fleets and planets ships that prioritized firepower. On 6/20/2025 at 3:06 PM, Seto Kaiba said: I'd even question the claim that the Super Defender - explicitly a modified ADR-04-Mk.X - is a "second generation" machine. It's a modified first generation machine, not a new design. I'm reminded of the Day in Alcatraz story Kodachi wrote to tie in for his movie novelization where the OCTOS bis appears to respond to SMS' prison break to save Sheryl. I'd thought that design would be lost to time since it's even more obscure then the Sv-51, but there it was as a NUNS Special Forces Destroid; the thing was even given a VF-19EF gunpod in the place of it's original dual machine gun! I suppose replicas could be build sort of like the Sv-52s in The Ride and in Frontier's novelization supposedly, as the UN itself made 28 for themselves. Granted the production line was destroyed with obvious reasons, but history always gets unearthed in stranger ways. On another side note, I do love the reverence the story gives the Destroid Tomahawk of all things, to the point that Alcatraz's warden, James, used it to fend off the OCTOS bis' alongside Temujin. It's a really interesting story showing the prison break scene in the perspective of those from the place, where they all group up together to help out. I recommended it if anyone wants more Frontier stuff to sink their teeth in. On 6/21/2025 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said: The Spacy Air Force makes less sense. Presumably they're the non-carrier aviation arm of the space forces... but that seems to leave their role overlapping with that of the Air Force, since the one base of theirs that we see directly is planetside. The best guess I have that it's sort of an aerospace branch? Where they have VFs act as interceptors in the stratosphere like the RF-12A2 and R-311 Remora in Ace Combat 3, where they have carrier ships patrol and cruise in high altitudes as a in-between point? Wish we got more elaboration on it so we wouldn't have to do all the guess work. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 24 Posted June 24 1 hour ago, TG Remix said: Presumably water bound planets like Eden-3? Or probably any government that has enough local threats planetside that it constituted forces like a Navy or an Army. Some populations are gonna be bigger then others after all, and the more people the more of a chance they want to act up. What "local threats", though? Who else is operating a Navy on these planets? Emigrant fleets are colonizing uninhabited planets. There are laws against colonizing planets that already have sentients living on them. The VF-4's Navy variant is said to be mainly an interceptor and anti-ship strike fighter. Whose ships is this thing made to attack when there's only one Navy anywhere? The VF-4's Navy variant is from a period when even emigrant planets were few and far between, well before the era when there was anti-government terrorism and civil wars amongst the emigrant governments. It feels like one of those details where the creators forgot that there really weren't any significant threats left planetside. 1 hour ago, TG Remix said: There's also some merit with some of the standard VF types as well, the VF-5000 was designed as a lightweight air superiority fighter to work in tandem with the ground/local based VA-3, it just so happened that it was popular enough to be a next-generation fighter alongside the VF-4. The VA-3's an all-regime machine, not an atmosphere-optimized one. Also, the VF-5000 was developed to supplement/compensate for the VF-4's shortcomings as an atmospheric fighter and dogfighter not as a companion craft for the VA-3. 1 hour ago, TG Remix said: I'm reminded of the Day in Alcatraz story Kodachi wrote to tie in for his movie novelization where the OCTOS bis appears to respond to SMS' prison break to save Sheryl. I'd thought that design would be lost to time since it's even more obscure then the Sv-51, but there it was as a NUNS Special Forces Destroid; the thing was even given a VF-19EF gunpod in the place of it's original dual machine gun! I suppose replicas could be build sort of like the Sv-52s in The Ride and in Frontier's novelization supposedly, as the UN itself made 28 for themselves. Granted the production line was destroyed with obvious reasons, but history always gets unearthed in stranger ways. Eh... it's not that surprising, really. The Macross Frontier fleet is more or less set up as a pre-First Space War theme park. The fleet recreates large portions of several famous cities or districts like San Francisco, Shibuya, Akihabara, Beijing... even things like period-correct cars are recreated (albeit with modern technology under the hood). Given that the fleet bothered to reproduce an old model air defense Destroid as cannon fodder and build up replicas of pre-war helicopters for a movie, it's not surprising they'd reproduce other period machines if they felt it was advantageous. They're really committed to the bit. It's absolutely ridiculous overkill for the purpose, though. A GU-15 or GU-17 against unarmed, unarmored Zentradi prisoners? That's like going deerhunting with a tank destroyer. 1 hour ago, TG Remix said: On another side note, I do love the reverence the story gives the Destroid Tomahawk of all things, to the point that Alcatraz's warden, James, used it to fend off the OCTOS bis' alongside Temujin. It's a really interesting story showing the prison break scene in the perspective of those from the place, where they all group up together to help out. I recommended it if anyone wants more Frontier stuff to sink their teeth in. That's about the level I'd expect in terms of capability... not actually viable on the battlefield, but adequate for bullying unarmed Zentradi inmates in the absence of newer dedicated machines that don't fit the fleet's visual aesthetic. An out-of-date model sold off as an unwanted asset by the military that eventually become purely decorative. Mind you, the way this is phrased it makes it sound like the prison was being attacked from the outside which is a bit silly given that fleet's only had chance encounters with rogue Zentradi and they were all fended off before threatening the environment ships. 1 hour ago, TG Remix said: The best guess I have that it's sort of an aerospace branch? Where they have VFs act as interceptors in the stratosphere like the RF-12A2 and R-311 Remora in Ace Combat 3, where they have carrier ships patrol and cruise in high altitudes as a in-between point? Wish we got more elaboration on it so we wouldn't have to do all the guess work. Maybe... though the branch seems to predate the existence of fighters which could quickly ascend to orbit from a planetary surface, and it also has the misfortune to come after the concept of "floating stands" (space airbases) in gensynchronous orbit as part of planetary defenses. Perhaps they're the aviation units left to man things like moon bases or satellite cities. Quote
SebastianP Posted June 24 Posted June 24 On 6/22/2025 at 7:10 AM, Seto Kaiba said: So... I have a weird bit of esoterica that's been vexing me and I'm wondering if one of the other contributors here might help. In Macross the Ride, Ukyo Kodachi seems to have indulged himself in giving any reasonably plot-relevant ship or mecha a Meaningful Name. Most of them are reasonably straightforward. The YF-27-3/YF-27-5's name and the name of Wisla & Oder were a bit of a struggle because they're misspelled. The one that's still got me stumped is the Macross Galaxy fleet's Riviera-class resort ship... its name エヴナ is either Evna or Evuna. I cannot find a satisfactory reference, either to a place or story, that fits this one, aside from the Town of Evna from L. Frank Baum's Oz series, which doesn't seem to have thematic relevance. Can anyone think of any places or people (from fiction) named "Evna" or "Evuna"? I'd suggest possibly expanding your search to less literal transcriptions, maybe? I'm pretty sure you can plausibly read those katakana as "Ebner". for example, which is a German surname. Not finding anyone immediately relevant with that name in particular though. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 25 Posted June 25 2 hours ago, SebastianP said: I'd suggest possibly expanding your search to less literal transcriptions, maybe? Have done... unfortunately I've come up dry. It's a loanword, so I'm kind of swinging for the fences no matter what. I've tried several common substitutions in case it's a typo, but no luck thus far. Since the other ship name references have all been folklore and fantasy, I bounced it off some friends with degrees in history and literature and they reckon it's probably meant to be the Oz reference we suspect it is. Evna in the Oz books is a beautiful seaside town in a land that sits on top of the underground mines and factories of the Nome King, while the Evna in the Macross light novel is a seaside resort ship with a hidden Galaxy corporation factory in the sublevels under the resort. (Possibly also a particularly smug in-universe authority figure making a tongue-in-cheek criticism of the Macross Galaxy fleet by comparing it to Oz and the Emerald City, a place of illusory wealth and mass delusion.) 2 hours ago, SebastianP said: I'm pretty sure you can plausibly read those katakana as "Ebner". for example, which is a German surname. Not finding anyone immediately relevant with that name in particular though. Alas, no... "bu" and "vu" are completely different kana. Quote
PixelatedShinobi Posted June 28 Posted June 28 On 6/24/2025 at 8:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Have done... unfortunately I've come up dry. It's a loanword, so I'm kind of swinging for the fences no matter what. I've tried several common substitutions in case it's a typo, but no luck thus far. Since the other ship name references have all been folklore and fantasy, I bounced it off some friends with degrees in history and literature and they reckon it's probably meant to be the Oz reference we suspect it is. Evna in the Oz books is a beautiful seaside town in a land that sits on top of the underground mines and factories of the Nome King, while the Evna in the Macross light novel is a seaside resort ship with a hidden Galaxy corporation factory in the sublevels under the resort. (Possibly also a particularly smug in-universe authority figure making a tongue-in-cheek criticism of the Macross Galaxy fleet by comparing it to Oz and the Emerald City, a place of illusory wealth and mass delusion.) Alas, no... "bu" and "vu" are completely different kana. The "Nome" theming might also be a connection drawn to everyone's favorite (mine, at least) Galactic Fairy? Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 28 Posted June 28 (edited) 13 hours ago, PixelatedShinobi said: The "Nome" theming might also be a connection drawn to everyone's favorite (mine, at least) Galactic Fairy? Maybe? I think that may be more of a happy accident. None of the sources I've translated thus far have shed any light on the origin/meaning of the Nome family name. It's spelled ノーム, which is used for several different loanwords like Gnome, Noam, and Nome. The most likely explanation I can come up with for their family name is that it is meant to be the same as "gnome", a reference to the earth spirit//fairy of Renaissance folklore that the Nomes of The Wonderful World of Oz are named for. Not that the Nome family of Macross have any real resonance with the folkloric creatures the way Baum's Nomes do. Edited June 28 by Seto Kaiba Quote
SebastianP Posted June 28 Posted June 28 (edited) On 6/25/2025 at 2:09 AM, Seto Kaiba said: Alas, no... "bu" and "vu" are completely different kana. Err...what? Really really confused by this, because... that doesn't make much sense. B and V are the second most infamous "Japanese does not make a distinction" pair of consonant sounds after R and L - and one of the first anime I ever watched in Japanese was Slayers, where Megumi Hayashibara's voice going "REBITEI-SHUN" and "DORAGON SUREIBU" are some of my stand-out memories. Especially since I just rewatched the the first episode the other day. When you said they have different kana, I tried to look them up, and not a single kana table - even the big ones, that cover Hiragana, Katakana, Dakuon, Handakuon and Yoon - have a "vu" sound listed. So I'm really most sincerly confused. What kana are they using in that name? Edit: OK, I googled the kana itself from your post, and found a wiktionary page. It's a real kana, used exclusively for transliteration, and it's noted to be a relatively recent addition, which is likely why it's not in my scanned-from-schoolbooks tables. But... as mentioned, Japanese itself does not make a distinction, and we have plenty of examples of Japanese natives, even working professionally, being *really careless* with B/V and R/L because it doesn't come naturally. If you're really sure it's specfically meant to be a V sound, then Evna from Oz sounds like the best fit. Edited June 28 by SebastianP Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 29 Posted June 29 5 hours ago, SebastianP said: Err...what? Really really confused by this, because... that doesn't make much sense. B and V are the second most infamous "Japanese does not make a distinction" pair of consonant sounds after R and L [...] That's the thing with general rules like that in language... they're true until they're not. Or to put it another way, they're always someone demanding an exception. Japanese is far from the worst offender among the languages I've studied over the years. 😆 5 hours ago, SebastianP said: Edit: OK, I googled the kana itself from your post, and found a wiktionary page. It's a real kana, used exclusively for transliteration, and it's noted to be a relatively recent addition, which is likely why it's not in my scanned-from-schoolbooks tables. But... as mentioned, Japanese itself does not make a distinction, and we have plenty of examples of Japanese natives, even working professionally, being *really careless* with B/V and R/L because it doesn't come naturally. If you're really sure it's specfically meant to be a V sound, then Evna from Oz sounds like the best fit. There's only one reading for ヴ on its own, and that's "vu". They spell the ship's name エヴナ (e-vu-na) consistently, both in the Macross the Ride Visual Book (see Vol.2 Pg18) and in the light novel itself. On that basis, I'm inclined to assume it probably isn't a spelling error. Especially since it's a rather niche kana in the first place. (Not to say they didn't make spelling errors... though they tended to make them in romanizing katakana rather than the katakana itself. Spoiler For instance, the romanization of the VF-0 Custom's name is given as "Zeak"... which suggests there's a Gundam fan on staff somewhere, but it also doubly incorrect since the name is meant to be "Sieg" and "Zeke" (which are both written ジーク), the former being a connection to the Brunhilde installed in the VF-19ACTIVE and the latter being the Allied nickname for the Mitsubishi Zero. I can't find anything for "Evuna", apart from a chain of Spanish tapas bars in England. "Evna", however, presents a bunch of different options the most likely of which seems to be the Oz connection. Quote
sketchley Posted June 29 Posted June 29 (edited) To add complexity to the エヴナ debate: be mindful that it may not be an English word, and that while ヴ may be "vu" in English, it may not represent "vu" in other languages. Random google search results for エヴナ: (more likely): エヴァン（エヴナ） in Tír na nÓg: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ティル・ナ・ノーグ (the land of eternal youth in Irish mythology): specifically in the section on ブランの航海 (The Voyage of Brân): "同作品では、エヴァン（エヴナ）はマナナーンの国とは別で、「女の国」である。" ⇒ In the work, Evan (Evna) is a "country of women" separate from the country of Mananaan. (less likely): Malick Evouna https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マリク・エヴナ Interestingly, "Evna" is apparently the capital of the Land of Ev (https://oz.fandom.com/wiki/Evna) Personally I think the Irish mythological connection is a better fit than the connection to "The Wizard of Oz". But one never knows. 🤷♂️ Edited June 29 by sketchley Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 29 Posted June 29 11 hours ago, sketchley said: To add complexity to the エヴナ debate: be mindful that it may not be an English word, and that while ヴ may be "vu" in English, it may not represent "vu" in other languages. Yeah, I searched on both the likely romanizations and the kana string itself for quite a while. Not a string with a lot of plausible results, though... unless Ukyo Kodachi is really into tapas. 11 hours ago, sketchley said: (more likely): エヴァン（エヴナ） in Tír na nÓg: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ティル・ナ・ノーグ (the land of eternal youth in Irish mythology): specifically in the section on ブランの航海 (The Voyage of Brân): "同作品では、エヴァン（エヴナ）はマナナーンの国とは別で、「女の国」である。" ⇒ In the work, Evan (Evna) is a "country of women" separate from the country of Mananaan. (less likely): Malick Evouna https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マリク・エヴナ Emhain Abhlach (pronounced Ah-win) is certainly an alternative, though not one I'm sure fits the story... or the kana if we're being honest. It is a mythical island paradise... but in keeping with the usual themes of magical and otherworldly locales in Irish mythology and folklore, it's one of those places where Time Works Differently and You Can't Go Home Again. Emhain Abhlach is your standard Land of Plenty and Ease where mortal wealth is so abundant to have lost all value, with abundant food and water that needs no human labor to cultivate or maintain, and of course a population of... how can we put this politely?... "welcoming" women. The catch being that, when you leave, you discover that you've been gone for hundreds of years and will instantly age those hundreds of years the minute you get off the boat. It doesn't seem to have any meaningful connection to the tropically-themed ocean resort ship in Macross the Ride. 11 hours ago, sketchley said: Interestingly, "Evna" is apparently the capital of the Land of Ev (https://oz.fandom.com/wiki/Evna) That's the one I hit on as a likely suspect. Evna is a beautiful town near the Nonestic Sea in the Land of Ev, which is under the corrupt influence of a malevolent industrial capitalist autocrat (the Nome King) who rules his domain through an industrial monopoly, treats his own people as borderline slave labor, and actively conspires to oppress people in other lands. The resort ship Evna belongs to the Macross Galaxy fleet, and has a Galaxy corporation secret factory in its sublevels, meaning it's a beautiful seaside community ruled from underground by malevolent industrial capitalist autocrats (the cyber-nobles) who treat their own people as slave labor and want to oppress other nations similarly. 11 hours ago, sketchley said: Personally I think the Irish mythological connection is a better fit than the connection to "The Wizard of Oz". But one never knows. 🤷♂️ Some commentary from Kodachi would be nice. Quote
pengbuzz Posted June 29 Posted June 29 2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Emhain Abhlach (pronounced Ah-win) is certainly an alternative, though not one I'm sure fits the story... or the kana if we're being honest. It is a mythical island paradise... but in keeping with the usual themes of magical and otherworldly locales in Irish mythology and folklore, it's one of those places where Time Works Differently and You Can't Go Home Again. Emhain Abhlach is your standard Land of Plenty and Ease where mortal wealth is so abundant to have lost all value, with abundant food and water that needs no human labor to cultivate or maintain, and of course a population of... how can we put this politely?... "welcoming" women. The catch being that, when you leave, you discover that you've been gone for hundreds of years and will instantly age those hundreds of years the minute you get off the boat. Do you know if they currently have any flights or cruises out to there? Asking for a friend... Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted June 30 Posted June 30 4 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Do you know if they currently have any flights or cruises out to there? Asking for a friend... Probably inadvisable. There's a reason one of the five main types of Irish folk song is "The fae are back on their bullsh*t and I got bamboozled". 🤣 Spoiler The other four are: "Just in case you've forgotten, we still hate the British." "I've left Ireland, and I regret it." "I'm wasted, and I have no regrets." "Bro I saw the hottest girl, you wouldn't even believe it." Seems like it'd be in poor taste to name a resort ship meant for tourism after a magical island that you can't leave without recreating the "He chose poorly" scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Doubly so if the scholars are correct and Emhain is an cognate of what's now called Avalon in Arthurian mythos. Avalon isn't a place of bounty for living souls to visit, it's a place for the dead and dying and not somewhere people generally come back from. Then again, naming a resort ship with an underground factory after a beautiful seaside town in a kingdom ruled by underground by a power-hungry technocrat is a bit on the nose too. Quote
aurance Posted July 8 Posted July 8 On 6/29/2025 at 9:14 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Seems like it'd be in poor taste to name a resort ship meant for tourism after a magical island that you can't leave without recreating the "He chose poorly" scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Doubly so if the scholars are correct and Emhain is an cognate of what's now called Avalon in Arthurian mythos. Avalon isn't a place of bounty for living souls to visit, it's a place for the dead and dying and not somewhere people generally come back from. You're probably overthinking what in-universe corporate marketing types would name a commercial ship. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 8 Posted July 8 (edited) 17 minutes ago, aurance said: You're probably overthinking what in-universe corporate marketing types would name a commercial ship. Very likely. I am an engineer and an academic... overthinking things is practically my stock in trade! 😜 I do admire everyone else in the story having terribly on-the-nose naming sense though. (Made amusing on a meta level knowing the Naresuan is an Earth culture otaku... he quite intentionally gave his ship what he thought was a Cool and Meaningful Name with symbolic resonance and then probably had to weather a few weeks of "What do you mean it's not awesome?" from his crew.) Edited July 8 by Seto Kaiba Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 8 Posted July 8 On 6/29/2025 at 9:14 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Probably inadvisable. There's a reason one of the five main types of Irish folk song is "The fae are back on their bullsh*t and I got bamboozled". 🤣 Hide contents The other four are: "Just in case you've forgotten, we still hate the British." "I've left Ireland, and I regret it." "I'm wasted, and I have no regrets." "Bro I saw the hottest girl, you wouldn't even believe it." Seems like it'd be in poor taste to name a resort ship meant for tourism after a magical island that you can't leave without recreating the "He chose poorly" scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Doubly so if the scholars are correct and Emhain is an cognate of what's now called Avalon in Arthurian mythos. Avalon isn't a place of bounty for living souls to visit, it's a place for the dead and dying and not somewhere people generally come back from. Then again, naming a resort ship with an underground factory after a beautiful seaside town in a kingdom ruled by underground by a power-hungry technocrat is a bit on the nose too. Well, the cruise wouldn't be named for it; it would just bring people there. As for leaving: nope. Although jerks who act up on the island would be given that as a punishment. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted Friday at 01:52 AM Posted Friday at 01:52 AM In a bid to rescue what remains of my fragile sanity after a day of bureaucratic tedium, I took a whack at the section of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix given over to talking about the VF-3000. Much of what it has to say is the same as what's said in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie, such as that the VF-3000 program got its start as an offshoot/continuation of VF-1 program at Stonewell Bellcom before the merger with Shinnakasu Heavy Industry and Shinsei Manufacturing that formed the modern Shinsei Industry in 2012. Unlike the section in the VF-1 Master File, the VF-0 Master File actually discusses the VF-3000's design too. As Master File has it, development of the VF-3000 was a bit of a speedrun on Stonewell Bellcom's part after the First Space War. Stonewell Bellcom's design team deliberately kept its design as conventional as possible, to minimize the number of risks taken during development and to facilitate the reuse of development and test data from the VF-0 and VF-1 in the simulation and practical test phases. Keeping the same basic structure, albeit with a size closer to that of the VF-0, facilitated the inclusion of all kinds of quality-of-life improvements like additional propellant tanks in the legs for space use, expanded life support equipment for space use, larger energy capacitors for the laser weapons, and room for future upgrade hardware of all kinds. The cockpit block was set up as a two-seater by default, at the request of the UN Forces. It was designed to be operated by a single pilot, but it seems the UN Forces considered the VF-3000 a possible candidate for use in interstellar research fleets due to its excess of internal space. The second seat was theoretically earmarked for use by research personnel who would operate any optional research equipment installed on the aircraft. It was also tentatively considered a potential fighter-bomber, with the rear set able to be fitted out with the necessary controls for a RIO. It's said that the first prototype - internally codenamed MD-3000-01 - rolled off the line at L5 in September 2011. MD-3000-02 followed it off the line shortly thereafter, with Unit 01 being used for atmospheric testing and Unit 02 for space testing. Initial evaluations were satisfactory, with its longer operating time/range in space being particularly praised. What the UN Forces weren't entirely pleased with was the longer time required to change modes... being 30% longer than those of the VF-1 Valkyrie. This was considered to be a bit of a deal breaker by the UN Forces, who asked that this be improved if possible and contracted with Stonewell Bellcom for nine prototype aircraft tentatively dubbed VF-3000 Crusader according to Stonewell Bellcom's internal codename for the program. Stonewell Bellcom didn't consider that point to be critical, since the problem was mainly due to the movement needed to store the tail, and ultimately opted not to change the design. The initial type that borrowed part of the VF-1 production line was considered to be VF-3000A. A later refined version that eliminated the problems of the early model with a refined tail, main wing, and auxiliary propulsion system design was designated VF-3000B. The parts are, however, said to be interchangeable and it is possible to mix-and-match. The asymmetrical armament on the monitor turret is described as an attempt to provide a balance of long and short-ranged firepower. The single large-bore pulse laser cannon is meant for long range engagements and the twin laser machineguns are meant for short-range ones. The apparent justification for this is that research fleets were expected to find unknown potential threats and would need every edge. There is also mention of a VF-3000C type, which has symmetrical weapon mounts on the monitor turret, though apparently with the ability to pick either twin pulse lasers or quad laser machineguns rather than having a set configuration. The VF-3000's gunpod is also described as an enlarged version of the GU-11 with greater ammunition capacity. It's noted to have three hardpoints per wing, and to be compatible with all VF-1-era armaments. Hardpoints were also added to the center fuselage to facilitate use as a fighter bomber. There was also apparently a proposal for a delta wing variant, which MD-3000-01 was modified to test in 2013. In terms of service history, Master File asserts that about 40 total VF-3000s were delivered to the UN Forces by the end of 2013, though their deployment destinations and actual numbers are indicated to still be classified. (Presumably this is a reference to their use by Special Forces units like the Dancing Skulls.) It's noted that some remained in our solar system as aggressor training aircraft for escort fleets until 2032. There is mention that some emigrant fleets toyed with the idea of adopting the VF-3000 and conducted tests of their own, though none seem to have adopted it in any numbers. One particularly interesting note is that the VF-3000 is said to have been purchased by some of the early private military companies formed in the wake of the First Space War, as government restrictions prevented them from acquiring the military's latest models (the VF-5000 at the time). It's said that they were produced in small numbers in the 2010s, and that the total number produced is believed to be less than 100. There is also an interesting point all the way back at the beginning of the piece, which talks about how the VF-3000 was for a time a popular choice of stand-in for the VF-0 when war movies were being filmed. Its similarity in size and design apparently made it ideal for the purpose, and on one notable occasion it also doubled for the SV-51 with a simple coat of black paint. It's said that movies that did this have become invaluable historical documents... not for their artistic merit (or lack thereof) but because they contain some of the only footage of this rare aircraft in operation. One squadron operating the VF-3000 is mentioned several times in marginal notes. The SVF-115 Armors transitioned from the VF-1 to VF-3000 in early 2014, and were changed to being a special mission squadron at the same time. They were deployed to a planetary reconnaissance fleet for two years starting in 2015. The Armors are said to have appeared in publicity magazines and regular carrier squadron, and that their status as a special forces unit directly under the New UN Forces Command was not made public until 2038, 10 years after the unit was disbanded. Quote
twich Posted Friday at 08:35 AM Posted Friday at 08:35 AM 6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: In a bid to rescue what remains of my fragile sanity after a day of bureaucratic tedium, I took a whack at the section of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix given over to talking about the VF-3000. Much of what it has to say is the same as what's said in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie, such as that the VF-3000 program got its start as an offshoot/continuation of VF-1 program at Stonewell Bellcom before the merger with Shinnakasu Heavy Industry and Shinsei Manufacturing that formed the modern Shinsei Industry in 2012. Unlike the section in the VF-1 Master File, the VF-0 Master File actually discusses the VF-3000's design too. As Master File has it, development of the VF-3000 was a bit of a speedrun on Stonewell Bellcom's part after the First Space War. Stonewell Bellcom's design team deliberately kept its design as conventional as possible, to minimize the number of risks taken during development and to facilitate the reuse of development and test data from the VF-0 and VF-1 in the simulation and practical test phases. Keeping the same basic structure, albeit with a size closer to that of the VF-0, facilitated the inclusion of all kinds of quality-of-life improvements like additional propellant tanks in the legs for space use, expanded life support equipment for space use, larger energy capacitors for the laser weapons, and room for future upgrade hardware of all kinds. The cockpit block was set up as a two-seater by default, at the request of the UN Forces. It was designed to be operated by a single pilot, but it seems the UN Forces considered the VF-3000 a possible candidate for use in interstellar research fleets due to its excess of internal space. The second seat was theoretically earmarked for use by research personnel who would operate any optional research equipment installed on the aircraft. It was also tentatively considered a potential fighter-bomber, with the rear set able to be fitted out with the necessary controls for a RIO. It's said that the first prototype - internally codenamed MD-3000-01 - rolled off the line at L5 in September 2011. MD-3000-02 followed it off the line shortly thereafter, with Unit 01 being used for atmospheric testing and Unit 02 for space testing. Initial evaluations were satisfactory, with its longer operating time/range in space being particularly praised. What the UN Forces weren't entirely pleased with was the longer time required to change modes... being 30% longer than those of the VF-1 Valkyrie. This was considered to be a bit of a deal breaker by the UN Forces, who asked that this be improved if possible and contracted with Stonewell Bellcom for nine prototype aircraft tentatively dubbed VF-3000 Crusader according to Stonewell Bellcom's internal codename for the program. Stonewell Bellcom didn't consider that point to be critical, since the problem was mainly due to the movement needed to store the tail, and ultimately opted not to change the design. The initial type that borrowed part of the VF-1 production line was considered to be VF-3000A. A later refined version that eliminated the problems of the early model with a refined tail, main wing, and auxiliary propulsion system design was designated VF-3000B. The parts are, however, said to be interchangeable and it is possible to mix-and-match. The asymmetrical armament on the monitor turret is described as an attempt to provide a balance of long and short-ranged firepower. The single large-bore pulse laser cannon is meant for long range engagements and the twin laser machineguns are meant for short-range ones. The apparent justification for this is that research fleets were expected to find unknown potential threats and would need every edge. There is also mention of a VF-3000C type, which has symmetrical weapon mounts on the monitor turret, though apparently with the ability to pick either twin pulse lasers or quad laser machineguns rather than having a set configuration. The VF-3000's gunpod is also described as an enlarged version of the GU-11 with greater ammunition capacity. It's noted to have three hardpoints per wing, and to be compatible with all VF-1-era armaments. Hardpoints were also added to the center fuselage to facilitate use as a fighter bomber. There was also apparently a proposal for a delta wing variant, which MD-3000-01 was modified to test in 2013. In terms of service history, Master File asserts that about 40 total VF-3000s were delivered to the UN Forces by the end of 2013, though their deployment destinations and actual numbers are indicated to still be classified. (Presumably this is a reference to their use by Special Forces units like the Dancing Skulls.) It's noted that some remained in our solar system as aggressor training aircraft for escort fleets until 2032. There is mention that some emigrant fleets toyed with the idea of adopting the VF-3000 and conducted tests of their own, though none seem to have adopted it in any numbers. One particularly interesting note is that the VF-3000 is said to have been purchased by some of the early private military companies formed in the wake of the First Space War, as government restrictions prevented them from acquiring the military's latest models (the VF-5000 at the time). It's said that they were produced in small numbers in the 2010s, and that the total number produced is believed to be less than 100. There is also an interesting point all the way back at the beginning of the piece, which talks about how the VF-3000 was for a time a popular choice of stand-in for the VF-0 when war movies were being filmed. Its similarity in size and design apparently made it ideal for the purpose, and on one notable occasion it also doubled for the SV-51 with a simple coat of black paint. It's said that movies that did this have become invaluable historical documents... not for their artistic merit (or lack thereof) but because they contain some of the only footage of this rare aircraft in operation. One squadron operating the VF-3000 is mentioned several times in marginal notes. The SVF-115 Armors transitioned from the VF-1 to VF-3000 in early 2014, and were changed to being a special mission squadron at the same time. They were deployed to a planetary reconnaissance fleet for two years starting in 2015. The Armors are said to have appeared in publicity magazines and regular carrier squadron, and that their status as a special forces unit directly under the New UN Forces Command was not made public until 2038, 10 years after the unit was disbanded. Very Cool bit of lore, thank you for translating this. Now, I know that you looked at the VF-31AX book and gave some stats for the SV-303. Does it give a specific reason as to why this was a drone and not a manned fighter? Also, does it give any reason as to why this particular Variable Drone has engine power equal or greater than the YF-29 Durandal? Thanks! Twich Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted Friday at 04:02 PM Posted Friday at 04:02 PM 5 hours ago, twich said: Now, I know that you looked at the VF-31AX book and gave some stats for the SV-303. Does it give a specific reason as to why this was a drone and not a manned fighter? The development history of the Sv-303 Vivasvat given in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus - which to date remains the only source to talk about the fighters in the second Macross Delta movie at any reasonable length - describes the Sv-303 as an offshoot/rethink of a series of manned fighter developments that Windermere IV's Chancellor Brehm commissioned from the Epsilon Foundation. According to Master File, the original request (with the working designation Sv-300) was for a new manned fighter to supplement or replace the Sv-262 with better performance than the New UN Forces new VF-31. Both the overtuned FF-2999/FC2 Stage IIG engine and the Twin Quartz Drive system used in the Sv-303 were originally developed for use in the Sv-300. Changing priorities on the customer's (Windermere IV's) side led to the program being abruptly cancelled shortly before Sv-300 prototype No.1 was scheduled to be delivered for testing. Two other related manned fighter programs, Sv-301 and Sv-302, were also cancelled at the same time. Exactly what drove Windermere IV's government to change its mind and cancel the development of manned Valkyries in favor of a next-generation unmanned fighter controlled using newly-developed biological fold wave communications technology is left unstated. Spoiler IMO, it seems likely that the change in focus was a reaction to events of the Macross Delta TV series or first movie like Prince Heinz's deteriorating health as a result of using his runes to boost his fold song to weaponize Var syndrome, New UN Forces countermeasures to Var syndrome, and simply realizing how outnumbered and outclassed they were fighting the New UN Forces on a level footing. 5 hours ago, twich said: Also, does it give any reason as to why this particular Variable Drone has engine power equal or greater than the YF-29 Durandal? Well, the overtuned FF-2999/FC2 engines and Twin Quartz Drive were originally intended for use in a twin-engine VF with performance rivaling or exceeding the VF-31, so that's a big part of it. They reused the existing modified engine design for the unmanned fighter. The rest of it is on the addition of the sub-engines. Windermere IV must have asked for Dian Cecht to design the most balls-to-the-wall bonkers thing they could make if cost wasn't an overriding concern and they had no shortage of high quality fold quartz. For their part, Dian Cecht seems to have used as many high-spec off-the-shelf parts as possible to get the job done quickly. Of course, the substantial weight reduction caused by abolishing the cockpit block and all of its attendant support systems and the de facto replacement of other equipment like radars, radios, energy conversion armor, active stealth system, etc. with the Mirage Package no doubt helped them push that envelope as far as they could. Quote
twich Posted Saturday at 06:10 AM Posted Saturday at 06:10 AM 14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: The development history of the Sv-303 Vivasvat given in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus - which to date remains the only source to talk about the fighters in the second Macross Delta movie at any reasonable length - describes the Sv-303 as an offshoot/rethink of a series of manned fighter developments that Windermere IV's Chancellor Brehm commissioned from the Epsilon Foundation. According to Master File, the original request (with the working designation Sv-300) was for a new manned fighter to supplement or replace the Sv-262 with better performance than the New UN Forces new VF-31. Both the overtuned FF-2999/FC2 Stage IIG engine and the Twin Quartz Drive system used in the Sv-303 were originally developed for use in the Sv-300. Changing priorities on the customer's (Windermere IV's) side led to the program being abruptly cancelled shortly before Sv-300 prototype No.1 was scheduled to be delivered for testing. Two other related manned fighter programs, Sv-301 and Sv-302, were also cancelled at the same time. Exactly what drove Windermere IV's government to change its mind and cancel the development of manned Valkyries in favor of a next-generation unmanned fighter controlled using newly-developed biological fold wave communications technology is left unstated. Hide contents IMO, it seems likely that the change in focus was a reaction to events of the Macross Delta TV series or first movie like Prince Heinz's deteriorating health as a result of using his runes to boost his fold song to weaponize Var syndrome, New UN Forces countermeasures to Var syndrome, and simply realizing how outnumbered and outclassed they were fighting the New UN Forces on a level footing. Well, the overtuned FF-2999/FC2 engines and Twin Quartz Drive were originally intended for use in a twin-engine VF with performance rivaling or exceeding the VF-31, so that's a big part of it. They reused the existing modified engine design for the unmanned fighter. The rest of it is on the addition of the sub-engines. Windermere IV must have asked for Dian Cecht to design the most balls-to-the-wall bonkers thing they could make if cost wasn't an overriding concern and they had no shortage of high quality fold quartz. For their part, Dian Cecht seems to have used as many high-spec off-the-shelf parts as possible to get the job done quickly. Of course, the substantial weight reduction caused by abolishing the cockpit block and all of its attendant support systems and the de facto replacement of other equipment like radars, radios, energy conversion armor, active stealth system, etc. with the Mirage Package no doubt helped them push that envelope as far as they could. I am curious to see if we will see a continuation of the SV-300 through SV-303 research for the next enemy(bad guy) variable fighter and go a whole new way for the next hero valkyrie design. I wished that Bandai had made a toy of the SV-303 instead of the SV-262 color change for Con Vaart in red. I love the design of the SV-262Hs/Ba, but the transformation in toy form causes me anxiety. I hope that we get some news/teasers/something this year. Twich Quote
Master Dex Posted Saturday at 06:23 PM Posted Saturday at 06:23 PM 12 hours ago, twich said: I am curious to see if we will see a continuation of the SV-300 through SV-303 research for the next enemy(bad guy) variable fighter and go a whole new way for the next hero valkyrie design. I wished that Bandai had made a toy of the SV-303 instead of the SV-262 color change for Con Vaart in red. I love the design of the SV-262Hs/Ba, but the transformation in toy form causes me anxiety. I hope that we get some news/teasers/something this year. Twich If your think the transformation of the Sv-262 toy causes anxiety the 303 would have been 10x worse lol. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted Saturday at 06:45 PM Posted Saturday at 06:45 PM 11 hours ago, twich said: I am curious to see if we will see a continuation of the SV-300 through SV-303 research for the next enemy(bad guy) variable fighter and go a whole new way for the next hero valkyrie design. We've got no idea what's in store for the next Macross series... which is going to be a Bandai Namco project IIRC. The one thing I'd expect there is they'll want to have 50,000 variants and equipment options so that they can milk those plamodel molds. Of course, if there's ever any proper official media coverage of Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!'s mecha the backstory in Master File has a coin flip's chance of being replaced outright with something else entirely, so we probably shouldn't take it as read that the Sv-300, Sv-301, and Sv-302 exist in the official setting at all. Right now Master File is literally the one and only source that talks about both the VF-31AX and Sv-303 in any significant detail, so it's kind of the answer by default. Given what Macross Delta's extra features and Master File have said about the state of new VF development, I'm really wondering how far the envelope is going to be pushed in the next series. Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! is set nine years after the events of Macross Frontier and its movies. Back at the start of Macross Delta, Kawamori indicated the VF-31 is in the final stages of operational acceptance testing and is set to enter service as the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces next main fighter c.2068-2069. They're a good seven to eight years behind the wealthier emigrant fleets and planets that started transitioning their forces to 5th Generation Valkyries as early as 2060, and it's likely that they'll remain their main variable fighters for at least 20 years. The concept for the 6th Generation Variable Fighter was teased by the extra features in Macross Delta's home video release and bluntly spelled out in Master File. If that's the real direction they're going, what we can expect to see from future hero Valkyries is: Manned-Unmanned Teaming (aka "Loyal Wingman" platforms) where a manned Valkyrie is supported by and controlling multiple drone fighters in the field, similar to what the VF-2SS does in Macross II or the Sv-262 and Sv-303 do in Macross Delta. Fold wave systems as a standard feature. It's implied that the presence of a fold wave system or derivative thereof is what makes the Siegfried and Draken III "Gen 5.5". Fold quartz-enhanced engines as a standard feature, like the /FC2 or /FC3 designs. Beam gunpods as standard The main roadblock to production and adoption of 6th Generation Variable Fighters has been established to be fold quartz. Humanity can't independently synthesize it. Supplies of the stuff are finite, it's a heavily restricted material due to the dangers involved in its procurement and its weapons potential, and fold quartz of sufficient size and purity to create a fold wave system is indicated to be vanishingly rare and nearly impossible to obtain even on planets with large deposits of fold quartz. One has to wonder if we'll see an extension of the idea Master File tabled where the New UN Forces are willing to accept a lower-quality fold wave system made using the best and highest-quality fold carbon Humanity can synthesize (which is said to be only 1% as effective) or if they decide to reinvent the 6th Generation and ditch the fold wave system as one of its key requirements. 11 hours ago, twich said: I wished that Bandai had made a toy of the SV-303 instead of the SV-262 color change for Con Vaart in red. I love the design of the SV-262Hs/Ba, but the transformation in toy form causes me anxiety. I hope that we get some news/teasers/something this year. I'm kind of surprised that we haven't seen a DX Chogokin Sv-303 yet. It's a main mecha in the movie and it's been literal years now. They literally had Bandai's toy division help with the designs for the movie so that they could maximize the profits from merchandising, so it's weird that the only new DX's we got from it are the VF-31AX and Bogue's Sv-262 "Red Knight" version. Quote
pengbuzz Posted Saturday at 11:16 PM Posted Saturday at 11:16 PM 4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: The main roadblock to production and adoption of 6th Generation Variable Fighters has been established to be fold quartz. Humanity can't independently synthesize it. Supplies of the stuff are finite, it's a heavily restricted material due to the dangers involved in its procurement and its weapons potential, and fold quartz of sufficient size and purity to create a fold wave system is indicated to be vanishingly rare and nearly impossible to obtain even on planets with large deposits of fold quartz. One has to wonder if we'll see an extension of the idea Master File tabled where the New UN Forces are willing to accept a lower-quality fold wave system made using the best and highest-quality fold carbon Humanity can synthesize (which is said to be only 1% as effective) or if they decide to reinvent the 6th Generation and ditch the fold wave system as one of its key requirements. Another possibility: they make a breakthrough on fold quartz production in some manner. That, or they produce fold half-gallons. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted yesterday at 01:12 AM Posted yesterday at 01:12 AM 1 hour ago, pengbuzz said: Another possibility: they make a breakthrough on fold quartz production in some manner. That is definitely another possibility, yes. To be honest, I kind of hope that Macross's creators don't go that route yet. The scarcity of fold quartz and its amazing potential to revolutionize technology has been the centerpiece of two major conflicts in the setting thus far. Unless we're moving way down the timeline it would feel like too much progress too quickly for Humanity to suddenly go from needing to scrounge around in Protoculture ruins and old Vajra nests for leftover fold quartz to being able to manufacture the stuff on their own without limit the way they do fold carbon in a measly few decades when it took the Protoculture a century or two. Not to mention what a massive, massive game-changer it would be for every aspect of technology. Quote
camk4evr Posted yesterday at 06:02 AM Posted yesterday at 06:02 AM 6 hours ago, pengbuzz said: That, or they produce fold half-gallons. Being Canadian, it took me a moment to figure out the joke. Quote
TG Remix Posted yesterday at 01:06 PM Posted yesterday at 01:06 PM On 7/10/2025 at 9:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said: The cockpit block was set up as a two-seater by default, at the request of the UN Forces. It was designed to be operated by a single pilot, but it seems the UN Forces considered the VF-3000 a possible candidate for use in interstellar research fleets due to its excess of internal space. The second seat was theoretically earmarked for use by research personnel who would operate any optional research equipment installed on the aircraft. It was also tentatively considered a potential fighter-bomber, with the rear set able to be fitted out with the necessary controls for a RIO. With a Battroid that towers everything that isn't a Variable bomber, I can believe it could be used for long term missions like that. On 7/10/2025 at 9:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said: One particularly interesting note is that the VF-3000 is said to have been purchased by some of the early private military companies formed in the wake of the First Space War, as government restrictions prevented them from acquiring the military's latest models (the VF-5000 at the time). It's said that they were produced in small numbers in the 2010s, and that the total number produced is believed to be less than 100. Not entirely sure if the Master File crew would even care about M3 beyond surface level lip surface (heck, even official material doesn't with any game with maybe VF-X2 and 30 as the exceptions), but my mind went to the few units the rebel group New York Liberation League had in Episode 3, alongside their VF-1 and Gnerls. Presumably it was to get stronger aircraft that wasn't a generation behind, but they seem to have enough influence against Neo York's planetary government that there's a delicate balance between them. It's a bit of a shame that even in MF weren't a lot of VF-3000s built, but not only it was something official materials stated long ago, but considering the 2nd generation was about having cost effective units in the world of blooming planetary governments, its cost effectiveness wouldn't be worth it considering it's larger then any airframe in that period, and most importantly, the joint slipping would be too much of a detriment to any governing body to adopt. On 7/10/2025 at 9:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said: There is also an interesting point all the way back at the beginning of the piece, which talks about how the VF-3000 was for a time a popular choice of stand-in for the VF-0 when war movies were being filmed. Its similarity in size and design apparently made it ideal for the purpose, and on one notable occasion it also doubled for the SV-51 with a simple coat of black paint. It's said that movies that did this have become invaluable historical documents... not for their artistic merit (or lack thereof) but because they contain some of the only footage of this rare aircraft in operation Reminds me of how apparently in the Frontier novelization, it was said that SMS seemed to have a few Sv-52s used for The Bird Man movie, which is a pretty rare craft itself; I don't doubt SMS is rich enough to have a few genuine aircraft, but with Magdalena's being a replica based on a Sv-51 frame, makes me think if there were other cases of them being found and having replicas built. Although thinking about it more, I was under the assumption that the movie filmed in Frontier was the first public exposure of Zero's events, unless the MF's talking about war movies that depict other sorties and incidents with the Sv-51's involvement? They seem to be very few and far between. On 7/11/2025 at 12:02 PM, Seto Kaiba said: The development history of the Sv-303 Vivasvat given in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus - which to date remains the only source to talk about the fighters in the second Macross Delta movie at any reasonable length - describes the Sv-303 as an offshoot/rethink of a series of manned fighter developments that Windermere IV's Chancellor Brehm commissioned from the Epsilon Foundation. According to Master File, the original request (with the working designation Sv-300) was for a new manned fighter to supplement or replace the Sv-262 with better performance than the New UN Forces new VF-31. Both the overtuned FF-2999/FC2 Stage IIG engine and the Twin Quartz Drive system used in the Sv-303 were originally developed for use in the Sv-300. Changing priorities on the customer's (Windermere IV's) side led to the program being abruptly cancelled shortly before Sv-300 prototype No.1 was scheduled to be delivered for testing. Two other related manned fighter programs, Sv-301 and Sv-302, were also cancelled at the same time. It's placement in the timeline being very dubious, since it's another "bashing everyone in a single timeline" game, but Shooting Insight in its finial stages seem to have all grey units of the Sv-303 being regular enemies, perhaps prototypes of the ones piloted by Yami Q Ray? They were deployed by the main villain of the story, Eris Beatrix, who is a member of Epsilon Foundation, so it doesn't seem unlikely. 18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: The main roadblock to production and adoption of 6th Generation Variable Fighters has been established to be fold quartz. Humanity can't independently synthesize it. Supplies of the stuff are finite, it's a heavily restricted material due to the dangers involved in its procurement and its weapons potential, and fold quartz of sufficient size and purity to create a fold wave system is indicated to be vanishingly rare and nearly impossible to obtain even on planets with large deposits of fold quartz. One has to wonder if we'll see an extension of the idea Master File tabled where the New UN Forces are willing to accept a lower-quality fold wave system made using the best and highest-quality fold carbon Humanity can synthesize (which is said to be only 1% as effective) or if they decide to reinvent the 6th Generation and ditch the fold wave system as one of its key requirements. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a VF-19 with the 5th Gen VFs and make up a in-universe excuse that explains why they can't make high performance units like the VF-25, or even its Delta era contemporaries and make the 5th Gen grunts have a low quality fold quartz to make the 6th Gen VFs stand out even more. Assuming they even dabble with it anyways, wouldn't be surprised if we're stuck with the stick figure frames for a little bit more. Quote
pengbuzz Posted yesterday at 01:51 PM Posted yesterday at 01:51 PM (edited) 12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: That is definitely another possibility, yes. To be honest, I kind of hope that Macross's creators don't go that route yet. The scarcity of fold quartz and its amazing potential to revolutionize technology has been the centerpiece of two major conflicts in the setting thus far. Unless we're moving way down the timeline it would feel like too much progress too quickly for Humanity to suddenly go from needing to scrounge around in Protoculture ruins and old Vajra nests for leftover fold quartz to being able to manufacture the stuff on their own without limit the way they do fold carbon in a measly few decades when it took the Protoculture a century or two. Not to mention what a massive, massive game-changer it would be for every aspect of technology. If they do go with being able to produce it, I would say have it just after they found a method. That way, while they can produce it, it's labor intensive, and is going to be slow for the foreseeable future. Just because they find a way doesn't mean it needs to be easy, and it doesn't have to be all at once; perhaps enough to start outfitting a squadron's worth of mechs in a given space of time. It could also prompt other powers or interests to either try to gain that advantage for themselves, or try to sabotage the NUNS' efforts to produce it, That could make for some interesting storylines in of itself. Edited yesterday at 01:56 PM by pengbuzz Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted 21 hours ago Posted 21 hours ago 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: Not entirely sure if the Master File crew would even care about M3 beyond surface level lip surface (heck, even official material doesn't with any game with maybe VF-X2 and 30 as the exceptions), but my mind went to the few units the rebel group New York Liberation League had in Episode 3, alongside their VF-1 and Gnerls. Presumably it was to get stronger aircraft that wasn't a generation behind, but they seem to have enough influence against Neo York's planetary government that there's a delicate balance between them. I'm pretty sure they care at least a little, since they have mentioned the Dancing Skulls in other volumes and the references to the VF-3000's classified deployment to Special Forces units is pretty clearly a reference to Macross M3. That said, I'd assume the Neo York Liberation League probably didn't purchase their VF-3000s from Shinsei Industry and wouldn't be mentioned among their legitimate/intended customers. Of course there is also the possibility that the VF-3000s in Macross M3 are being retroactively identified as PMC craft hired by the Liberation League. 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: It's a bit of a shame that even in MF weren't a lot of VF-3000s built, but not only it was something official materials stated long ago, but considering the 2nd generation was about having cost effective units in the world of blooming planetary governments, its cost effectiveness wouldn't be worth it considering it's larger then any airframe in that period, and most importantly, the joint slipping would be too much of a detriment to any governing body to adopt. Cost-effectiveness was certainly a priority for a lot of 2nd Generation VFs, but I think a solid argument can be made that cost-effectiveness was just one of several shifting priorities which were part of the larger generational objective of developing VFs around the evolving (and at the time poorly-understood) needs of early emigrant fleets and planets. Early 2nd Generation Variable Fighters like the VF-X-3, VF-4, and VF-3000 don't mention cost or ease of manufacture as a primary design objective. The VF-X-3 was lost during the First Space War but was said to have performance exceeding that of even the VF-4. The VF-4 and VF-3000 were both designed to address the shortcomings of the original VF-1 in space operations. Larger airframes with more room for internal propellant tanks and sub-engine systems. Larger and longer-ranged energy weapons to reduce their dependence on limited ammunition. Improved live support systems in the event of the craft being disabled or destroyed, to preserve the life of the pilot as long as possible while waiting for a rescue. Both of those models were introduced around the time of the very first emigrant fleet launches. Those 2nd Generation designs that entered development or service after Humanity started to discover habitable planets are the ones that, surely not coincidentally, are described with statements like "inexpensive" and "easily manufactured on developing emigrant planets". Once emigrant fleets started actually finding habitable worlds that they could start colonizing right away, suddenly the need wasn't just for big Valkyries with high operational endurance in space. Now they also needed something light and inexpensive that they could use for planetside service. Something they could manufacture on the cheap without jeopardizing their development plans for the planet's surface. So from there, we get a bevy of low-cost, low-complexity solutions like the VF-5, VF-6, VF-7, VF-5000, and finally VF-9 that all served as supplements to the VF-4. Both Macross Chronicle and Master File generally agree that the thing that did the most damage to the VF-3000's prospects was the fact that it was essentially Stonewell Bellcom (later Shinsei Industry) competing against itself unnecessarily. The company already had a largely complete next-generation main Variable Fighter program focusing on improved space performance under active testing with the New UN Forces... the VF-4 Lightning III. If Master File is correct the VF-3000 may have served as an important test that the newly formed Shinsei Industry was up to the job of continuing VF development and manufacture for the New UN Forces (the VF-4 having been mostly a prewar program), but the final product was still basically redundant as a competitor to a design the New UN Forces had already decided to adopt. 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: Reminds me of how apparently in the Frontier novelization, it was said that SMS seemed to have a few Sv-52s used for The Bird Man movie, which is a pretty rare craft itself; I don't doubt SMS is rich enough to have a few genuine aircraft, but with Magdalena's being a replica based on a Sv-51 frame, makes me think if there were other cases of them being found and having replicas built. Based on what's said in the Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy novelization, the events of Macross the Ride straight-up created a market for replicas of those old model VFs. Not only are there other cases of replicas being built, there's supposedly a direct causal relationship between the two. In Macross 30's novel version, Leon mentions in passing that the VF-0 Phoenix in SMS's possession - the one Leon gets stuck with in the game version's tutorial - is a replica which was produced commercially to capitalize on the popularity of a particular Vanquish League racer's replica VF-0 from two years prior. The only VF-0 that competed in the league in 2058 was Hakuna Aoba's VF-0改 "Sieg"/"Zeke", so apparently his participation made enough of a stir that someone (Shinsei?) decided to produce replica VF-0s with modern parts (from the VF-1C and VF-5000) for the civilian market. It wouldn't be at all surprising if Magdalena Zielonaska's SV-52γ, which participated in the league for far longer than Hakuna Aoba's VF-0改 did, created a similar stir and demand for a commercially-available replica machine. Replica SV-51s are found on Uroboros in 2060, and someone has to be making them and selling them to civilians. It wouldn't be all that surprising if they were already commercially available before 2060 and the manufacturer was engaged with the film's production as a product placement or something. 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: Although thinking about it more, I was under the assumption that the movie filmed in Frontier was the first public exposure of Zero's events, unless the MF's talking about war movies that depict other sorties and incidents with the Sv-51's involvement? They seem to be very few and far between. As far as we know, yeah... the 2059 film Bird Human was the first time the recently-declassified events of the Mayan Island incident were dramatized. I'd assume the films Master File is referring to here are dramatizations of other incidents previously mentioned in Master File or possibly other sources like Macross the First. They don't specify, though. There are at least two other major engagements mentioned... the attack on Grand Cannon III in Africa and the ill-fated plan to attack the UN Forces HQ at Grand Cannon I in Alaska that was almost literally foiled before it could get off the ground. Incidentally, I'm told the remark about the one time the VF-3000 played the role of the SV-51 by being painted black is almost certainly meant to be a reference to Top Gun, which used US Navy F-5E's painted black as the fictional "MiG-28". 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: It's placement in the timeline being very dubious, since it's another "bashing everyone in a single timeline" game, but Shooting Insight in its finial stages seem to have all grey units of the Sv-303 being regular enemies, perhaps prototypes of the ones piloted by Yami Q Ray? They were deployed by the main villain of the story, Eris Beatrix, who is a member of Epsilon Foundation, so it doesn't seem unlikely. Very dubious indeed. Epsilon Foundation absolutely has access to the Sv-303 since they make the bloody things, but regular enemies? In Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! they're presented as a production (or production-intent) unmanned fighter that outclasses even the 5.5th Generation VF-31 Siegfried and Sv-262 Draken III. Even Xaos's VF-31AX Kairos Plus - which Master File asserts are a hasty and incomplete conversion of the VF-31 Siegfried into a experimental/developmental 6th Generation test machine - were only barely able to keep up with them one-on-one. Max's 6th Generation YF-29 was the only machine that really outclassed them... which probably owes at least as much to Max's own over-the-top specs as it does the YF-29's. 😆 4 hours ago, TG Remix said: I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a VF-19 with the 5th Gen VFs and make up a in-universe excuse that explains why they can't make high performance units like the VF-25, or even its Delta era contemporaries and make the 5th Gen grunts have a low quality fold quartz to make the 6th Gen VFs stand out even more. Assuming they even dabble with it anyways, wouldn't be surprised if we're stuck with the stick figure frames for a little bit more. Eh... I mean, that was kind of already explicitly the case going the other way from the YF-29's introduction in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye. Fold quartz in general is quite rare. It does occur in nature, but it's implied that the vast majority of what's out there is synthesized either by the Vajra or the Protoculture. The 5th Generation VFs like the VF-24, VF-25, VF-27, and VF-31 use the stuff sparingly and only where it's absolutely unavoidable. Namely, the Inertia Store Converter protecting the pilot from the incredible g-forces the fighter is capable of. The rest of its systems use high quality synthetic fold carbon. The fold quartz they use is of a size and purity that's common enough to make ISC systems with reliable output in bulk. Presumably it's similar in size to what we see them pulling out of Vajra carcasses... an oblong sliver of gemstone around three centimeters or so long. (Maybe 20 or so carats if we assume a comparably sized and shaped diamond?) In short, 5th Generation VFs can be mass produced precisely because their fold quartz is comparatively low quality enough to be accessible in bulk. The size and purity of fold quartz needed to make a working Fold Wave System for a 6th Generation VF is explicitly borderline Unobtainium, however. The YF-29's Fold Wave System needed four 1,000 carat pieces of ultra-high purity fold quartz to function. Sure, 1,000 carats is only 200 grams, but that's still a gemstone of about the same size as a regulation baseball at a purity level that Macross Frontier says can only be found in Vajra queens. Master File claims that reproducing the performance of Alto's original YF-29[A] is essentially impossible because fold quartz of the requisite size and purity simply does not exist in any accessible form and that all subsequent YF-29s are lower-performance copies of the original due to inferior fold quartz. Even ignoring Master File, such high-quality fold quartz is so impossibly rare that officially only a double handful of YF-29s have ever been built and they're all essentially irreplaceable. Macross Delta's VF-31 Siegfrieds and VF-31AX Kairos Pluses are equipped with an economized version of the FWS which uses less (and lower purity) fold quartz. The required material is still incredibly rare and expensive, but it's at least affordable enough for them to field half a dozen of their FWS-equipped custom VF-31s with reduced performance as the main consequence. (Master File alleges this version of the FWS also needs an external fold wave source to operate.) 3 hours ago, pengbuzz said: If they do go with being able to produce it, I would say have it just after they found a method. That way, while they can produce it, it's labor intensive, and is going to be slow for the foreseeable future. Just because they find a way doesn't mean it needs to be easy, and it doesn't have to be all at once; perhaps enough to start outfitting a squadron's worth of mechs in a given space of time. It could also prompt other powers or interests to either try to gain that advantage for themselves, or try to sabotage the NUNS' efforts to produce it, That could make for some interesting storylines in of itself. Eh... I think that still creates the problem of having a unit of invincible godmode sues whose VFs have no limits. Quote
Big s Posted 20 hours ago Posted 20 hours ago Not sure if it’s a question that’s been answered, but was wondering about the pack in the right hip of the Nousjadeul Ger armors. Seems to be a similar pack with both the movie and tv show versions. The one in the left hip seems to be a simple armor piece, but the right side looks very different. Just was wondering since recently there was a build of the old Imai kit of the tv version in the workbench section. Quote
TehPW Posted 20 hours ago Posted 20 hours ago On 6/21/2025 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said: So... that's a bit of a rabbit hole in its own right since there are seemingly two separate Marine Corps. When the then-newly inaugurated Earth Unification (UN) Government officially commenced business in February 2001, one of the first things they did was to establish the Earth UN Forces to reorganize and integrate the various national militaries of Earth into a cohesive fighting force for planetary defense. The Earth UN Forces originally had four branches: the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, and the Marine Corps. These four conventional forces were exactly what you'd expect given their names. We know relatively little about them, as the story doesn't focus on any of them directly and they show up infrequently in the print lore. However, we know a few details like that the Daedalus-class was developed in large part with the Marines in mind (originally the US Marines who formed the backbone of the UN Marines) and that they had an interest in VFs as a replacement for aging VTOL/STOVL jets used in close air support to have their own VF-0 variant (the VF-0C). The fifth branch, the Spacy (space force) was added two years later in 2003. After the First Space War, things get a little bit weirder and a little bit harder to explain. The New Unification Government takes over for the destroyed Earth Unification Government in 2010 and at some unknown date in 2010 or early 2011 someone in power makes the decision to have portions of the Spacy spun off as separate branches of service: the Spacy Air Force and Spacy Marine Corps. Exactly what the organizational division of responsibilities there is is unclear at best. As far as I am aware, they have never been properly explained. They first appear in the This is Animation book for the Macross Plus OVA in Variable Fighters Aero Report, with the Spacy Air Force subsequently appearing in Macross Plus and the Spacy Marine Corps in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta. The Spacy Marine Corps seems obvious enough. They've got to be ground forces and related air support attached to/transported by the Spacy's fleets. The Spacy Air Force makes less sense. Presumably they're the non-carrier aviation arm of the space forces... but that seems to leave their role overlapping with that of the Air Force, since the one base of theirs that we see directly is planetside. With respect to the "why do they still exist?" part... if Isamu's service record is any indication, there is a fair amount of inter-service mobility (more aligned to the JSDF) in the New UN Forces and there is still some semblance of a blue water navy left given that Isamu serves a brief stint about the UNN Enterprise in 2035. Here's a idea about the UNMC: Are they supposed to be ground-based ie Destroids and Regults? Quote
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