Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[sketchley]

Wait a second...

Is it planet "Laguna" or "Ragna"? The English speaking world appears to have adopted the latter, but the scans provided by Graham (thank you) above say the former.

And where does Xaos come from? If its only from these kits, doesn't the Laguna/Ragna thing put it into doubt?

[Seto Kaiba]

Wait a second...

Waiting a second... done!

Is it planet "Laguna" or "Ragna"? The English speaking world appears to have adopted the latter, but the scans provided by Graham (thank you) above say the former.

The spelling used in the animation of the series itself and the official subs on the Blu-Rays is "Ragna". (I went and double-checked just for you.)

And where does Xaos come from? If its only from these kits, doesn't the Laguna/Ragna thing put it into doubt?

That's how it's spelled in the official subtitles on the Blu-Rays.

[aurance]

I bet there's a terrible reality tv show about kids from Ragna Beach High School.

[sketchley]

So... Tomytech didn't get the message?

Or is this a case of the people doing the subs not getting the message? (After all, [Dr.] Chiba Masahiro is much more trustworthy than the unknowns producing the subs).

Edited September 12, 2016 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

So... Tomytech didn't get the message?

Or is this a case of the people doing the subs not getting the message? (After all, [Dr.] Chiba Masahiro is much more trustworthy than the unknowns producing the subs).

Tomytech didn't get the message on the "Ragna" front, but they're singing from the same psalter as the official subs on "Xaos".

The "Ragna" spelling is shown on-screen several times in the series. The first occasion was Mission 0.89/1.0's pre-story exposition, where they show a labeled galaxy map to illustrate how far away the Brisingr cluster is from Earth. The same spelling crops in later episodes when star charts of the Brisingr cluster itself are shown. The official subs are using the spelling shown in the animation.

IIRC, the "Xaos" spelling is only seen in merchandise and the official subs, since printed materials like the liner notes and magazine articles usually show the logo (styled in Greek, as Χάος) and write it in kana (ケイオス). I assume this is intended to be a mild homage to the Greek spelling, swapping the letters for their phoenitic and English equivalents instead of translating it directly... Χάος becoming Xaos.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

[Edit]: Taken out wild (even for my standards) speculation. We see that for some reason, Ka-Bars are issued. One can only wonder why.

Save me a bit of writing there...

As to why VF developers are suddenly so interested in putting anti-armor knives on variable fighters for close combat, I can only surmise it has a lot to do with the expectations that New UN Forces officials and the developers had regarding the armor strength of the Vajra... and, to a lesser extent, other 5th Generation VFs. Pinpoint barrier-enhanced blunt trauma's only going to go so far, and with Vajra carapace working like ECA with a toughness matching (or exceeding) what a 5th Generation VF Battroid has, a nice sharp object that could stab a Vajra between the plates of its carapace probably sounded like a really good idea.

Armor strength on VFs has only gone up... the VF-0 got an energy conversion armor defensive capability rivaling a tank, and the VF-1 tripled that based on older published material. In the 4th Generation VFs had achieved a level of defensive ability in their "naked" form that rivaled or exceeded the VF-1's Armored Pack (an 8x improvement in defensive ability vs. the VF-0), and the 5th Generation went up from there thanks to more generator output, superior materials, and in some cases simply making the armor thicker (like the YF-29).

[David Hingtgen]

Also, continuing the Norse theme----Ragna(rok).

[Aries Turner]

a nice sharp object that could stab a Vajra between the plates of its carapace probably sounded like a really good idea.

That is for granted, could even explain why the VF-25 was issued one. But then a VF-171 was caught on military recordings breaking such Vajra carapace with a powerpunch. Had it failed, he still could had tried to stab the bug with the pinpoint reinforced arm shield edge instead, but the punch was enough, showing Vajra carapace was grossly overestimated, the purpose of the Ka-Bars now gone. Without a clear role, I would had expected Ka-Bars being withdrawn from service as VF-11 bayonets did. A modified shield with strengthened dirk-like or stiletto-like tailcone, similar to VF-11 one and conceptually close to VF-27 shield-dagger, could still do the trick if some NUNS General still felt the idea was worthy for valkyrie combat. Then why issuing the VF-31 *two* Ka-Bars? No clue. Edited September 12, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Ghostbear0]

Because dual wealding energy knifes looks cool 😎

[kalvasflam]

the only reason that the knife isn't a beam saber is that then this would become too related to Gundam. Although I found it odd that the AKs do not have any edged weapons on their Valks, for all of their insistence on wearing the very same on their person.

[Aries Turner]

Because dual wealding energy knifes looks cool

Sure. But not as cool as impaling an enemy with both pinpoint reinforced railguns, without even misalignment damage, and THEN firing, Millia Fallyna style. Edited September 12, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

That is for granted, could even explain why the VF-25 was issued one. But then a VF-171 was caught on military recordings breaking such Vajra carapace with a powerpunch. Had it failed, he still could had tried to stab the bug with the pinpoint reinforced arm shield edge instead, but the punch was enough, showing Vajra carapace was grossly overestimated, the purpose of the Ka-Bars now gone.

I think you're probably giving the VF-171 too much credit here. Since we don't see the confrontation from start to finish, only the finishing blow, we really have no way of knowing if that particular Vajra's carapace had been damaged in combat by another weapon first... such as the high-powered anti-ECA rounds the Frontier NUNS issued to its troops for that assault.

It'd also be a mistake to assume that all Vajra armor is equal. The defensive ability of a Vajra varies based on its maturity and developmental stage. That Vajra that was finished off with a pinpoint barrier punch was one of the less powerful forms, the "Mobile Soldier Vajra" form, which the Mechanic Sheets in Macross Chronicle speculate to be an intermediate form between a larva and the Heavy Soldier Vajra type (the "big red") and its carapace is somewhat weaker.

On the occasions where we see the knife used, it's almost invariably used on the more mature, much more durable Vajra forms like the Heavy Soldier and/or Heavy Mobile Soldier (mantis) types which have a carapace tough enough to be very resistent even to the super-high powered shells the GU-17 uses.

Without a clear role, I would had expected Ka-Bars being withdrawn from service as VF-11 bayonets did.

The bayonet fitting on the VF-11's gunpod was removed as a cost save, not for want of a clear use. It's not clear how widespread the decision to go for the cheaper gunpod was, but it's worth noting even the VF-14 has been depicted as using the variant with the bayonet.

(It's also worth noting that the bayonet made a comeback in Macross 30 on the NUNS version of the YF-29...)

Then why issuing the VF-31 *two* Ka-Bars? No clue.

Maybe someone at Surya Aerospace really, REALLY likes Crocodile Dundee?

the only reason that the knife isn't a beam saber is that then this would become too related to Gundam. Although I found it odd that the AKs do not have any edged weapons on their Valks, for all of their insistence on wearing the very same on their person.

It is a little odd, but then I suppose the decision to do without a blade is more in keeping with their mobility-centered ethos. If they're resorting to fisticuffs something has gone badly wrong with their entire strategy of hit-and-run attacks.

It's hard to see in the art on the official web site, but the shield is long enough that it could potentially be used for a stabbing attack... and there's some manner of spike visible between the surface of the shield and left wrist that protrudes past the hand and could make a serviceable stabbing weapon in the right circumstances.

[Aries Turner]

I think you're probably giving the VF-171 too much credit here ... [and then, later, about Aerial Knights] It's hard to see in the art on the official web site, but the shield is long enough that it could potentially be used for a stabbing attack... and there's some manner of spike visible between the surface of the shield and left wrist that protrudes past the hand and could make a serviceable stabbing weapon in the right circumstances.

We are also underestimating all kind of sharp angles, protrusion and dangerously looking pieces of metal equally capable of seriously damaging anything when used with murderous intent. When something pierces your carapace (or your mecha), it is of little consequence if it is a giant knife, a giant screwdriver, a VF-171 tailfin or the 'sting' at the end of the VF-11 shield.

[bonus]: It is just me or the VF-171 tailfin, when in battroid form, looks exactly as a can opener when viewed from the right angle?

It'd also be a mistake to assume that all Vajra armor is equal.

Granted. For all intent no less than an armor piercing round at point blank range could achieve anything against larger types. A subsonic moving knife could be incapable of scratching that...

On the occasions where we see the knife used, it's almost invariably used on the more mature, much more durable Vajra forms like the Heavy Soldier and/or Heavy Mobile Soldier (mantis) types which have a carapace tough enough to be very resistent even to the super-high powered shells the GU-17 uses.

...or does it? Pinpoint barriers are quite something. Maybe it is Kawamori the one with a Crocodile Dundee fetish. Edited September 14, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Zinjo]

Just my 2 cents, the fanservice gear of Walkure (the rocket panties, bra and transparent suit) is one of the nonsense things I don't like in Delta. Being a combat unit, Walkure should use EX-Gear with holographic projectors attached to them, it provides better protection.

How do you hide the "clanking"?

[Zinjo]

Sure. As pinpoint barriers itselves at that size. Note: I agree with you here, really. I am just saying stretching too much the suspension of disbelief is something Macross is used to.

...with a rocket belt attached. The show is cheesy enough, so I agree: why not.

This is true and usually every time they do, it fails. This isn't Sailor Moon we are watching...

[Zinjo]

It's a little hard to read the pictures because of the glare, and the description seems like it's mostly focused on the VF-31 being a 5th Generation VF and derivative of the YF-30.

All things considered, I'd expect it to be something developed for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS as their replacement for their aging fleet of VF-171 Nightmare Pluses. In Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III there's a VF-31 Kairos in NUNS livery circa 2067, which would tend to support that view. There's also mention of a VF-30, which would seem to suggest the Kairos isn't the first local 5th Gen VF developed from the Chronos either.

As far as we know, Xaos is just buying them from Surya Aerospace and has opted to make them their official main fighter.

SMS Uroboros developed the YF-30 Chronos with the collaboration of Shinsei Industry, LAI, and the Uroboros AWDAP station... and they would've had to disclose the spec to the New UN Gov't under galaxy law eventually. Shinsei and LAI probably had an agreement with SMS that they'd be allowed to exploit the design to their own ends without the proprietary SMS hardware when they collaborated with Major Blanchett on Uroboros.

I am hopeful that the Macross universe begins to identify NUNS Federal force fighters with a even number designator. The YF-24 becomes the VF-24, the YF-30 becomes the VF-30, etc...

That all derivative monkey models are allocated odd numbers to easily identify them.

If this were to become the case then it would be easier for the fans to determine which fighters are Federal and therefore full NUN tech based equipment.

[Seto Kaiba]

We are also underestimating all kind of sharp angles, protrusion and dangerously looking pieces of metal equally capable of seriously damaging anything when used with murderous intent. When something pierces your carapace (or your mecha), it is of little consequence if it is a giant knife, a giant screwdriver, a VF-171 tailfin or the 'sting' at the end of the VF-11 shield.

True, though the chances of getting away undamaged when you're the one doing the stabbing are generally better if what you're using is a nice, solid, and thoroughly hardened object more durable than the thing you're stabbing.

While the VF-171's forearms are specially hardened to act as a shield when in Battroid mode, trying to turn the stabilizers into a stabbing weapon without the barrier in place would probably be bad for both parties since they're not solid... there are antennae and sensors and air vents for the boundary layer control system in there. The advantage of a knife is that a knife is a solid, deadly sharp chunk of super-hard alloy even if the barrier's not on.

Granted. For all intent no less than an armor piercing round at point blank range could achieve anything against larger types. A subsonic moving knife could be incapable of scratching that...

Pretty safe bet the knife isn't much use against the carapace of the larger Vajra types... which is probably why they always seem to aim for the softer flesh exposed by the gaps in the carapace necessary for articulation... the neck and joints. When Ozma scored the first knife "kill" of a Vajra, he put that knife right through its throat... being ignorant, at the time, of that inconvenient fact that there's basically nothing vital in a Vajra's head.

How do you hide the "clanking"?

Maybe they wouldn't have to... y'know, bring back roller disco?

[Seto Kaiba]

I am hopeful that the Macross universe begins to identify NUNS Federal force fighters with a even number designator. The YF-24 becomes the VF-24, the YF-30 becomes the VF-30, etc...

That all derivative monkey models are allocated odd numbers to easily identify them.

If this were to become the case then it would be easier for the fans to determine which fighters are Federal and therefore full NUN tech based equipment.

It'd be convenient, but I doubt they'd do something like that... since the Federal NUNS isn't likely to develop anywhere near the number of VFs that the combined emigrant forces are. It'd make no sense to skip half of all numbers for a force that's developing maybe a tenth of new fighters.

We'll probably see each new fighter generation's first model be the Federal main fighter, and the rest will be local derivatives of its censored YF spec.

Mind you, even a fighter with the same series number as the Federal one isn't guaranteed to also be Federal spec... because of the local monkey model variants of those, like Galaxy or Frontier's local versions of the VF-19C and VF-19E respectively, or the local variants that the VF-171 has.

[Aries Turner]

Also, it is not that difficult: VF-171 Voldor Type-1. Every local government should keep track of the block upgrade their fighters are at, but you can safely go with common variants. Consider the "Flanker": there are way more variants than simply Flanker-B through Flanker-H, but most are inconsequential to you.

You could almost hear the voldorian representative arguing: "what you call Type-1 actually are three older variants, only one still in service in large numbers. Under Type-2 umbrella are in fact other two, main variant and next variant, so...". 'Yeah, sure, whatever you say, buddy'.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, it is not that difficult: VF-171 Voldor Type-1. Every local government should keep track of the block upgrade their fighters are at, but you can safely go with common variants.

Frustratingly, there IS an official system of designation markup to denote local variants... but it's not consistently applied and therefore becomes somewhat frustrating and unhelpful.

The most commonly used version is a standard Navy-ish MDSB format, but followed with a slash after the block number, a two letter fleet name abbreviation and the fleet number. We've not seen the equivalent format for a planet yet.

To give an example, let's say we're talking about a locally produced VF-19E Excalibur from the Macross Valiant fleet. The VF-19E was a variant introduced at Block 10 (they count blocks by 1's instead of 10's, so Block 10 is the actual 10th block), and Macross Valiant was the 46th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet, so you'd get:

VF-19E-10/MV16 Excalibur

There are aberrations all over hell, like the Frontier fleet's local VF-19E derivative, which got a double variant letter instead (VF-19EF) but no fleet designator. The Zolan version of the VF-19 got a single variant letter all to itself (VF-19P). The VF-171, which Macross Chronicle indicates used roman numerals for its block numbers instead, also had at least one case had a fleet-unique block number (IIIF, the movie equivalent of the -EX type). In theory, Jessica Blanc's marksman model Nightmare Plus would be fully designated:

VF-171AS-II/MF25 Nightmare Plus

... but is never actually cited as such. If you have a headache after reading that, welcome to the club.

This also unhelpfully doesn't extend to non-governmental fighters operated by private contractors... so it's a mystery how someone would denote the unique modifications made to SMS's Konig Monster in the Frontier branch, or Xaos's modified VF-31s.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

No, actually it makes sense. Fleet variations are correctly designated, with really worthy ones getting a letter if there is an interest in producing the exact variant elsewhere (-EF, -EX, -P). Again, the VF-171 is the oddball, but also was the SR-71 (had to be RS-71 but was wrongly quoted), the X-49 (jumped to X-50 exclusively on coolness factors), the F-13 (triskaidekaphobia),...

[Seto Kaiba]

No, actually it makes sense. Fleet variations are correctly designated, with really worthy ones getting a letter if there is an interest in producing the exact variant elsewhere (-EF, -EX, -P).

You're makin' a pretty big unfounded assumption there... and the contradictions there are a little more subtle, but still present.

The VF-19EF Caliburn was a monkey model developed in the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet by their local Shinsei office, but there's no evidence it was ever intended for export. It was tardy to the party, you might say... being developed while Frontier Shinsei and LAI were in the home stretch on YF-25 development, partly as a data collection platform. They only made 154 of 'em, split between the Frontier New UN Forces and SMS. (It's not clear if this total includes the customized testbed version, VF-19ACTIVE.) As a fleet-specific VF-19E derivative it really should be VF-19E-##/MF25. Or possibly it should've been VF-19EX-##/MF25 considering the onboard equipment.

The VF-19P's got some contradictory backstory, but it's either the locally-produced detuned Zolan model or a variant produced for export sale to Zola... but it came before all this, so they haven't retroactively applied a correct designation to it.

The VF-171EX should also be getting a fleet-specific designator (like it did, in a non-systemic way in the movies), because -EX is a shared variant letter used by any program for which an existing model of fighter has been retrofitted with an EX-Gear cockpit system. It should be VF-171EX-##/MF25 to reflect the fact that other fleets may also develop their own EX-Gear equippped VF-171s to extend the fighter's service life. The movie version gave the upgrade a unique block number (IIIF) instead. The units produced locally on Uroboros likely had their own local variations, so separate designation should be necessary (unless, of course, they're exempt as illegal, off-the-books units produced by Havamal and, in one case, given to "Bandit King" Ganess Modora.)

[Aries Turner]

I see your point, but then again 154 split between SMS *AND* NUNS is somewhat worthy of a letter (ala Flanker-E). Sorry for erroneously putting the -EX into the mix. -EX is somewhat akin 'Kai'. Even simpler, as the modification involves taking out seat and controls, putting an EX-Gear and thus gaining a better escape system and survival kit, standard human-machine interface and an improvement in pilot G resistance, thus gaining greater safety margins and allowing some engine deyoking (VF airframes usually tolerate higher G rating than pilots themselves). Anyway, what I intended to convey is inconsistencies are gonna happen from time to time. Once you are aware of those, it isn't such big headache.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

I see your point, but then again 154 split between SMS *AND* NUNS is somewhat worthy of a letter (ala Flanker-E).

On that, I'm not so sure... to us, 154 fighters may sound like a lot, but the scale of air power in Macross is something totally other. From a 2050s standpoint, a medium-sized emigrant fleet can muster more fighter aircraft at one time than than most modern air forces or navies. The UN Spacy forces that are attached to the 37th Large Scale Long Distance Emigrant Fleet (Macross-7) had close to twice as many fighters as the entire US Navy.

A fleet like the 55th Large Scale Long Distance Emigrant Fleet is a good deal larger... an escort force potentially over four times the size of Macross-7's with fighter complement to match. If Frontier had the same fleet size as the Macross Valiant's and we assumed each ship was operating at maybe 1/2 of its capacity, that's almost twenty thousand planes (19,480). 154 fighters of one variant is a big deal today, but with an air force potentially numbering 20k, it almost feels like you could lose 154 as a rounding error. (It's less than 1%!)

That's just one fleet, too... there have been at least 59 large-scale long-distance emigrant fleets. I say "at least" because that's the highest number to appear thus far (Macross 29, from Macross the Musiculture), and we basically have almost two decades (the 2050's and 2060's) where they haven't identified any fleet launches yet. Plus there's the ~100 short-distance emigrant fleets and the Federal forces too...

Cutting right to the Aesop at the end of this lamentably long rant... the New UN Spacy is BIG. 154 fighters is a vanishingly small drop in an ocean of VFs.

Sorry for erroneously putting the -EX into the mix. -EX is somewhat akin 'Kai'. Even simpler, as the modification involves taking out seat and controls, putting an EX-Gear and thus gaining a better escape system and survival kit, standard human-machine interface and an improvement in pilot G resistance, thus gaining greater safety margins and allowing some engine deyoking (VF airframes usually tolerate higher G rating than pilots themselves).

I'm not sure I'd equate the -EX designation with 改.

With one noteworthy exception that is not relevant to the ongoing timeline, 改 (Kai) is more for non-production "aftermarket" customizations made to a single aircraft or small group of aircraft.

The -EX variant designation is a production designation for aircraft that are factory retrofitted or built-to-suit with the necessary avionics and controls upgrades to accommodate an EX-Gear cockpit system and all the necessary other hardware bits to support same.

EDIT: ... looking back at that, the second half is totally linguistic nit-picking on my part.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

to us, 154 fighters may sound like a lot, but the scale of air power in Macross is

It is not about numbers, it is about serving within the federal NUNS, not only a local fleet. A handful Kfirs in the Navy Top Gun were worth of F-21 designation.

EDIT: ... looking back at that, the second half is totally linguistic nit-picking on my part.

Most probably. I remember something about all the upgraded JSDF Mitsubishi made Panthoms being known as F-4EJ Kai. Interestingly, 154 F-4EJ Kai. Nice coincidence.

[Seto Kaiba]

It is not about numbers, it is about serving within the federal NUNS, not only a local fleet. A handful Kfirs in the Navy Top Gun were worth of F-21 designation.

Not sure why the federal New UN Forces would want the Frontier fleet's monkey model when the original it's based on is already part of their inventory...

But with respect to numbers and letters, the IAI Kfir was an all-new aircraft to the US Navy and as such got its own assignment in the tri-service system even though relatively few were acquired. The VF-19EF Caliburn wouldn't/shouldn't merit its own stand-alone variant letter, given that it's just a locally-produced VF-19E monkey model. Oddly, one of the other locally built VF-19E derivatives DID get designated correctly... Aisha Blanchett's VF-19E from the Macross 30 novelization.

(Oddly, the VF-19E seems to have become unaccountably popular as a variant to produce local monkey models for in the 2050's... which is odd considering it didn't exist in production terms until ~2010.)

I wonder... would the VF-31s with Walkure's equipment have to be designated VF-31_-##/XAOS? Unlike SMS and the VF-25s it was operating in Macross Frontier, Xaos seems to actually OWN the VF-31s it's operating... whereas SMS just had them on loan from the Frontier NUNS. Is the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma platoon VF-31A a governmental stock model or a monkey model made for PMC use? Is there one "region" code for the entire Brisingr Alliance, or does each world have its own? Questions questions...

Most probably. I remember something about all the upgraded JSDF Mitsubishi made Panthoms being known as F-4EJ Kai. Interestingly, 154 F-4EJ Kai. Nice coincidence.

... I fear you may be misremembering. Japan bought 140 F-4EJs, built 138 more under license, and impored 14 RF-4E units. That's 278 (not counting the RF-4Es), of which only 96 were upgraded to F-4EJ改.

[Aries Turner]

Not sure why the federal New UN Forces would want the Frontier fleet's monkey model

You said those 154 were split between SMS and *NUNS*. Well, Frontier local NUNS, but NUNS in the end.

[Edit]: Numerology. 140 F-4EJ + 14 RF-4E. N/m. Nevertheless, 96 Kai is more than a small group of aircraft. Entire air forces have less fighters. But now it is me who is being nitpicky.

About the VF-31, it seems the -31A is loaned, as in the flashback episode Arad piloted one. That settles nothing, but the -31A is too grunt looking and is stated as next fighter for Brisingr sector. The monkey model are clearly the inverted wing ones, thus those are probably XAOS property. Probably.

In other news, those monkey models (and the basic too) are stated to have 36 micromissiles. Was Chuck stand a full salvo? Anyone did the count?

Edited September 14, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

You said those 154 were split between SMS and *NUNS*. Well, Frontier local NUNS, but NUNS in the end.

No, I did say "Frontier New UN Forces"...

[Edit]: Numerology. 140 F-4EJ + 14 RF-4E. N/m. Nevertheless, 96 Kai is more than a small group of aircraft. Entire air forces have less fighters. But now it is me who is being nitpicky.

Probably my fault for not being precise... I was speaking mainly of how that has been used in Macross.

To date, if we don't count one alterniverse example from the Macross II timeline, every variable fighter designated with a "Kai" has been a one-off... and many of the ones that could justifiably take it are one-offs (like the SMS Konig Monster). The custom VF-31s Xaos produced for Delta Flight are more than likely the single largest lot of one-offs to date at five aircraft.

Why they're NOT designated as custom units isn't clear, because from the way they're described they very explicitly are. Considering the only real difference between the lot is the monitor turret, I'm surprised they weren't designated "VF-31改 <Character> Special" instead. It would have made a great deal more sense, considering it's obvious these fighters will never be mass produced because of how ruinously expensive a fold wave system is.

About the VF-31, it seems the -31A is loaned, as in the flashback episode Arad piloted one. That settles nothing, but the -31A is too grunt looking and is stated as next fighter for Brisingr sector.

That'd be at odds with the stats as printed, though... they've identified the VF-31 as the fighter Xaos intends to make its standard fighter, not as what's tipped for the Brisingr Alliance's NUNS 5th Gen VF. It's highly probable that the VF-31A/B Kairos is the next main fighter of the Brisingr Alliance, but it does appear that Xaos actually owns the fighters its pilots are flying rather than having them for testing purposes the way SMS Frontier did for its VF-25s. (Though Master File does suggest SMS purchased its own VF-25s via its connections at Shinsei and LAI.)

Whether the ones Xaos has purchased are full military spec is what I wonder... one has to wonder what restrictions the PMCs have on purchasing fighters like that. You'd assume the local New UN Forces would want to have more power than some corporate army that answers only to the biggest pocketbook.

The monkey model are clearly the inverted wing ones, thus those are probably XAOS property. Probably.In other news, those monkey models (and the basic too) are stated to have 36 micromissiles. Was Chuck stand a full salvo? Anyone did the count?

I don't think we could call the forward-swept wing version of the VF-31 a "monkey model", considering its performance exceeds that of the base model.

We know for a fact it's an in-house custom job by Xaos Valkyrie Works though, so the variant letters attached are basically meaningless. They really ought to all be designated VF-31改.

I didn't count, but I'm relatively certain Chuck only fired about half of his micro-missiles.

[Aries Turner]

No, I did say "Frontier New UN Forces"...

Still NUNS.

To date, if we don't count one alterniverse example from the Macross II timeline, every variable fighter designated with a "Kai" has been a one-off...

You seem to forget Illustria F-14 Kai squad. Shin's wasn't a one-off. He was supposed to fly an OT improved, in service, fleet-wide variant of the F-14. OK, F-14s are variable in other sense, but still...

I don't think we could call the forward-swept wing version of the VF-31 a "monkey model", considering its performance exceeds that of the base model.

Wait. Isamu VF-19EF "monkey model" performance isn't supposed to exceed base model? What I am to understand as "monkey model"? Edited September 14, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

Still NUNS.

Wait. Isamu VF-19EF "monkey model" performance isn't supposed to exceed base model? What I am to understand as "monkey model"?

NUNS is a decentralized government, so Frontier NUNS and Federal NUNS are not the same thing. Federal NUNS mostly refers to Earth and the big dogs in charge. They have the best of the best stuff, as they are the origin point of Humanity's emigration. Unlike the days of the UNS though, the decentralized NUNS means Earht does not have direct control over all the fleets anymore (like they did in Macross 7), and Frontier NUNS can do it's own thing with what fighters it uses and what political decisions it makes. Frontier is merely part of a larger organization that is centered on Earth, but no longer beholden to it outside some base Federal laws which are as far as can be seen a lot less restrictive that say American Federal laws are with respect to its States. Seto said it best, the NUNG setup is more like the European Union. This means you can have Frontier NUNS do entirely different thing than Earth/Federal NUNS, and the latter tends to have the best stuff just because they are the first and keep themselves on top. This is mostly done because humanity is just too damn big and widespread now for Earth to keep tabs on everyone all the time.

As for monkey model, that is just a colloquialism Seto likes to use that means a model that is overall inferior to the original version, often by design. The idea is that Federal NUNS has a VF design they use, they export only the base design data to the emigrant fleets, such that those fleets can design their own fighters based on it, but will not be able to design the exact same one or one better unless they have some secret advantage (like Frontier did with fold quartz for the YF-29, even though it was too expensive to actually produce). Thus all emigrant fleet designs, even if based on the original specs, are monkey models basically because Earth doesn't want its kids to have more power than them if they can't directly control them (which they can't in the current NUNS setup, which is done because there is just too many fleets out there now to watch).

For this reason, a VF-19 design made by Frontier will be less powerful than one made by Earth or Eden (Eden was using Federal specs since it was the old UNS then, plus Eden is likely still easily governed by Earth due to being close by). Similarly VF-25, 27, 30, 31... all of these are inherently not going to be as good as whatever the Federal NUNS made based on the original YF-24 design (which we speculate is the VF-24 but we don't know 100% for sure).

[Seto Kaiba]

Still NUNS.

In name, sure... but the Federal NUNS and local NUNS are horses of two totally different colors and bound by different levels of restrictions.

You seem to forget Illustria F-14 Kai squad. Shin's wasn't a one-off. He was supposed to fly an OT improved, in service, fleet-wide variant of the F-14.

IIRC those are officially "F-14A++".

Wait. Isamu VF-19EF "monkey model" performance isn't supposed to exceed base model? What I am to understand as "monkey model"?

It shouldn't... that's the whole point of a "monkey model", to be a reduced-capability version built for export to allies. The purpose is twofold: to make certain you have the upper hand if your ally should turn on you, and to ensure your enemy doesn't get an accurate idea of what the weapon can really do. The term itself has its origins in the Soviet Union's export practices.

In point of fact, Isamu's VF-19EF/A has less engine power than a stock VF-19F.

NUNS is a decentralized government, so Frontier NUNS and Federal NUNS are not the same thing.

NUNS is the military... the space branch of the military at that. The government is the New UN Government (NUNG).

As for monkey model, that is just a colloquialism Seto likes to use that means a model that is overall inferior to the original version, often by design.

Actually, that term is used in the official publications too... particularly in connection with the VF-19's local variants.

The idea is that Federal NUNS has a VF design they use, they export only the base design data to the emigrant fleets, such that those fleets can design their own fighters based on it, but will not be able to design the exact same one or one better unless they have some secret advantage [...]

That's for new developments like the YF-24 derivatives all over the galaxy... for existing aircraft like the VF-19 or VF-22, there are restrictions imposed on many aspects of the locally-produced or imported version's performance by the New UN Government to ensure the local models will generally be weaker or less capable than the Federal New UN Forces version. In many cases, there are also restrictions on the number of these craft that can be produced by any one fleet or owned by one organization, which makes it very difficult for them to be employed in significant numbers.

For instance, the maximum engine output is capped, the target acquisition rate of the missile launchers is reduced, etc.

[Master Dex]

I did of course know the difference of NUNG and NUNS, my misapplication of the terms in my post is down to merely not paying attention to how I wrote it. However I respect your drive Seto to make sure we are kept on our toes. Never worry, I like the nitpickers of the world, I'm a nitpicker too, lol.

As for the rest, stuff I was not as well versed on, as usual, and just doing my best with my knowledge. Being the science lover I am, I enjoy being proven wrong in things. Makes debates less exciting with me but it also makes debates actually useful based on their intended purpose, lol.

[sketchley]

First known use of Monkey Model in connection with Macross Valkyries: http://nomansland.site.nfoservers.com/MRG-Active-Archive//forums/index.php?topic=2667.msg41083#msg41083

(2011.01)

[Aries Turner]

I actually didn't know the meaning, or the expression itself, for what matters. I guessed by context, and it shows I guessed wrong.

[Seto Kaiba]

First known use of Monkey Model in connection with Macross Valkyries: http://nomansland.site.nfoservers.com/MRG-Active-Archive//forums/index.php?topic=2667.msg41083#msg41083

(2011.01)

The term "monkey model" followed at quite a distance from the first appearance of a "monkey model" VF... the VF-19P Excalibur in Macross Dynamite 7 Ep3 "Lonesome" (released 25 May 1998).

I actually didn't know the meaning, or the expression itself, for what matters. I guessed by context, and it shows I guessed wrong.

Wikipedia has a fairly useful description of the term and its origin, with some practical Cold War examples.