Star Wars: The Clone Wars CG TV series

[Mr March]

The animation actually looks pretty good for a tv series, I'm not certain what everyone is complaining about as far as that goes. If this were a movie, I'd say it's sub-par, but this is a tv series isn't it? I can only assume the majority of complaints are confusing a style they don't care for with actual quality of production. Lots of people seem to do that. That or an expectation of high budget movie effects in a tv series.

As for the designs, well opinions are opinions and you know what they say about opinions. Personally, I'm sick unto death with all of the attempts at "realistic" CG that simply winds up looking creepy due to "uncanney valley" syndrome. I'm sick of realistic CG in general, and on principle because it's what so many high end productions aim for. Personally, I think this looks stylish, and and a nice change of pace from all that.

This sort of guantlet can only be thrown down to create a big massive debate about the subject. I'll say only this instead: I see nothing wrong with enjoying Star Wars and this latest concept has potential, but even the casual eye can see the motion physics are lacking even in comparison to last generation work. Style, such as it is, hasn't even been addressed as yet and the exaggerated character design of this show means the Uncanny Valley has no relevance.

If Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles is criticized for lousy CGI in ALL areas, it deserves ridicule. If Star Wars The Clone Wars is criticized for even a single lousy aspect of it's production, it is not exempted.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Mr March

[Warmaker]

Star Wars productions without lightsabers are like jidaigeki without Samurai... its just not the same.

That is true... but only for productions ever since the Prequels came out.

I'll make it short. The Original Trilogy era productions got by real nicely with Lightsabers and such being used at a minimal. It made the very few Jedi (Luke, Obi-Wan) that we see as something special. The majority of the movie characters were not swinging Lightsabers unlike the Prequels. Despite this, the Original Trilogy still holds a higher place over the Prequels.

I guess it's a matter of "Less is more" the way the Original Trilogy era treated the Force, Jedi, and Lightsabers, esp the movies. In the Prequel era, Jedi were a dime a dozen and died a dime a dozen.

In the Original Trilogy era, Jedi were rare, special... mystical.

In the Prequel Trilogy era, Jedi were everywhere and died all over the place. There was nothing mystical about a Jedi getting shot by "mere mortal Clones" repeatedly from behind.

As I said in an earlier reply, there's far more to the Star Wars universe than Lightsabers and the Force.

[eugimon]

I gotta agree with Warmaker on this one. The OT made jedi something special... a force that could turn the tide of the war through not only mystical powers but through charisma and force of will... the prequels made them ridiculously powerful only to cut down easily when the plot dictated.

While I personally like what I see so far of this new clone war series, and having been a big fan of the precursor shorts series... I too would rather see a series set either after RoTJ or not focusing on characters who's fates we already know.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They need to clone the jedi and make clone jedi-soldiers (as opposed to knights) who can use both blasters and lightsabers.

Cut out the morals and make them into mindless berserkers trained to not think for themselves but to be elite killers who can sense any sith evil doers who might try to sneak around and try what palpatine did. Like the zentradi only with force powers. That would be post-OT. Luke would have to fight them as the last jedi knight who has aged and become senile. It would be like how you had AEUG fighting the Federation in gundam, once the federation got too powerful and corrupt. So similarly you have luke trying to fight these elite jedi-soldiers who were made after the war against the empire as a lesson to all future sith still out there plotting new schemes and trying to hide under the radar.

So instead of clones of jango fett, you would have clones of obi wan and yoda running around hunting sith. They elite soldiers would call themselves newtypes. The next evolution of humanity.

Edited June 1, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Radd]

but even the casual eye can see the motion physics are lacking even in comparison to last generation work.

My experience says that the "casual eye" cannot discern crap CG from decent quality hand drawn animation, or real world puppetry from CG 8 years ago. The "casual eye" often has trouble discerning quality at all, and tends to confuse "quality" with "style". I'm not suggesting that of you, specifically, and please do not confuse me with an overzealous Star Wars fan out to pour accolades onto everything with the Star Wars brand pasted on to it.

From a purely technical standpoint, I believe the comment comparing this animation to 90's videogame cinematics is a rather extreme exaggeration. I'm not saying that this is the best TV CG I've seen either, just that it is better than a lot of tv CG I've seen even in recent years. I will agree that the actual motion is the weakest part of what was shown.

Style, such as it is, hasn't even been addressed as yet and the exaggerated character design of this show means the Uncanny Valley has no relevance.

Read other people's comments in this thread before making that claim. I didn't single you or your post for my own reply to the thread.

[KingNor]

Still, as bad as it looks, we are probably all going to end up watching it anyway.

Graham

I cannot understand this mentallity. if something looks like ass, don't watch it ffs. Nerds complain about bad movies while simultaniously sitting in huge lines to go watch said bad movies.

You may think it's harmless, but bad stuff keeps getting made because people sponsor it.

This animated thing doesn't look SO bad to me though, I might watch an episode or two.

In my opinion that Darth-Girl is the best Darth since Vader. Maul can get cut in half and fall into a pit for all i care. And to be perfectly honest Vader has lost nearly all of his apeal after watching the prequils. I like Darth-girl because i know nothing about her. She's just mean and evil.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You may think it's harmless, but bad stuff keeps getting made because people sponsor it.

But how will you know it sucks unless you see it for yourself first? It might have some redeeming feature that saves it from being *bad.

Macross has some pretty crappy animation in certain episodes, and you see macross fans still defending it from noobs who refuse to watch anything old with choppy frames. Some of my fave old movies which look low budget are things like mad max. No Cg stunts, (just stunts) no expectations that it has to live up to any reputation or that it's going to be the biggest thing ever, or that it needs to be hyped.

Sometimes having big expectations can lead to disapointment. (ie later matrix movies, phantom menace, spiderman 3) Other times you might not care so much about something living up to expectation and go and see something anyway for something to do, and hope to be surprised. (first matrix, batman begins)

*no garuantees it won't suck just saying that it might be good if given a chance.

Edited June 1, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Radd]

You don't need to go see every movie that sucks to learn that Hollywood makes awful movies and that there are things you can look for to reasonably discern decent movies from utter trash before you've plunked down the price of admission at the theatre.

From the trailers, to the 'Making of' special, to comments made by the director himself, a reasonable person would have been able to glean all the information they needed to know whether or not seeing 'Alien versus Predator' in a first run theatre would be worth it (or even the cheap theatre...or renting it...).

A tv series makes it even easier. You can watch a few episodes, and if everything you see is crap, no need to watch more.

[Mr March]

My experience says that the "casual eye" cannot discern crap CG from decent quality hand drawn animation, or real world puppetry from CG 8 years ago. The "casual eye" often has trouble discerning quality at all, and tends to confuse "quality" with "style". I'm not suggesting that of you, specifically, and please do not confuse me with an overzealous Star Wars fan out to pour accolades onto everything with the Star Wars brand pasted on to it.

From a purely technical standpoint, I believe the comment comparing this animation to 90's videogame cinematics is a rather extreme exaggeration. I'm not saying that this is the best TV CG I've seen either, just that it is better than a lot of tv CG I've seen even in recent years. I will agree that the actual motion is the weakest part of what was shown.

Read other people's comments in this thread before making that claim. I didn't single you or your post for my own reply to the thread.

I won't speak for others, but the style and character design has nothing to do with the animation physics suffering from a lack of quality in my eyes. And you don't have to be anything but an average viewer to notice, especially if other's comments are to be beleived. I don't beleive the comparison to late 90's video game animation is inappropriate at all. Watching the cut scenes from Starcraft compared to this trailer only cements the analogy, the major differences being style and polygon count (and no, I'VE not addressed either as yet, which is the only person I'm speaking for; others can defend their own points).

[Warmaker]

The scenes shown for the upcoming Clone Wars CG looks as good as the cutscenes from the expansion pack fro X-Wing vs TIE Fighter.

A game released in 1996 or 1997

[Hikuro]

Hey I remembered back in the 90's when Starwars prettymuch just was dead....they mad eto many games, which really sucked, to many novels, nothing made sense, so it just like stopped for a while.

Wonder if that's gonna happen again?

[Uxi]

Eh? Novels have been growing increasingly more common since Zahn and I don't remember any lulls in activity...

At first, I thought this cartoon would have been redundant with the last series, but I'm thinking this could be quite entertaining and give us a scope to the actual conduct of the war that has only been vaguely alluded to in the existing EU (since we all knew that the whole thing was a sham meant to put Jedi in the meatgrinder and manuever them into Order 66).

I would also like to see a KotoR, if not TotJ era, as well as purge, New Republic, and NJO.

[Warmaker]

It's maybe an eventual possibility. Not sure.

It's happening with Star Trek in a way. The TV shows are done right now with Enterprise splitting the usually unified fanbase. Movies? The last couple ones were lackluster. The games? Between Star Wars and Star Trek, ST games have averaged being far, far worse in recent years despite fewer releases.

[KingNor]

But how will you know it sucks unless you see it for yourself first? It might have some redeeming feature that saves it from being *bad.

Macross has some pretty crappy animation in certain episodes, and you see macross fans still defending it from noobs who refuse to watch anything old with choppy frames. Some of my fave old movies which look low budget are things like mad max. No Cg stunts, (just stunts) no expectations that it has to live up to any reputation or that it's going to be the biggest thing ever, or that it needs to be hyped.

Sometimes having big expectations can lead to disapointment. (ie later matrix movies, phantom menace, spiderman 3) Other times you might not care so much about something living up to expectation and go and see something anyway for something to do, and hope to be surprised. (first matrix, batman begins)

*no garuantees it won't suck just saying that it might be good if given a chance.

If you look at trailers and read interviews objectively (and not thorugh the eyes of fan-boy fanatasism) you can usually tell if a film will be crap or not.

Take AvP for example. for one it was pg-13, a second, the director said "this movie will have bad ass predators, not wussy predators like the first two movies" so basically i knew this guy just didn' tget it.

Or terminator 3, ugh.. really you don't even need to know more than the title to know, don't see this movie.

/sigh.. can you really tell me that after watching a trailer for AvP or Transformers that you can't tell it'll be far less of a movie than say.. children of men?

The only films i have trouble with in predicting are things like Thrillers, and suspence movies. Usually those are so heavilly reliant on performance of the actors you just can't tell till you see the film.

Now this clone wars show coming out, i THINK it's made by the same guys who did the clone wars shorts, maybe maybe not. In any case these clone war mini's have proven to be better stories all around and have much better action and characterization than ep 1.2.3 trillogy.

It's hard to tell how choppy and bad the animation will be, though the lip sync looks fairly un-inspired. Hopefully there won't be too much talking, i've had quite enough of the starwars characters talking to each other in ep 1.2.3, i'm ready for some action.

unfortunately... i've made a pact with myself to give no money to lucas while he's alive at this point, he violates everything i like about films and film making. When he's no longer part of the franchise and HOPEFULLY someone dedicated to the fans of the franchise takes the helm, maybe i'll pick up the CG clone wars DVD's or something.

[Hurin]

Post-'82 George Lucas = Not a Good Movie. . . er, TV Show.

[Warmaker]

Post-'82 George Lucas = Not a Good Movie. . . er, TV Show.

Empire Strikes Back FTW?

Oh, Pre-'82 Lucas wasn't necessarily all top notch. The Star Wars Christmas Special! It's always funny hearing about fans asking questions of this disaster to Lucasfilm officials at Star Wars conventions

Edited June 2, 2007 by Warmaker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm one of those people that don't watch trailers. Like when I went to see the Pitch Black/Chronicle of riddick movies I didn't know anything about the character, the actor, director etc ...Just decided to take a risk and watch it. It was actually not bad. Same with the first *matrix. I didn't think it would suck just because nobody talked about it or hyped it or through watching trailers to know if it was bad, I just went to see it. At the time it wasn't hyped up to be this big thing.

I bet the same thing happened with the OT star wars when it came out.

The thing I do read reviews of or watch trailers for are games though. I can't spend huge amounts of cash on something that gobbles up hours of time before knowing if it is any good. Although I have returned say a bad game, I've never walked out halfway through a movie. I sort of hope that it might have something worth staying through the whole thing for. Like all the boring stuff is building up to something. (the last movie that was like that was "Mr and Ms Smith". So boring at the beginning I couldn't bare it, but then it got good halfway and through the end)

I just think part of the problem is expectation. 300 for example had heaps of hype behind it, but it had no story. It was just action. You couldn't really know much about the characters except for the main guy who orders people to fight. It was true to the graphic novel for the most part, just that it missed an opportunity to build up to the fight. (gladiator at least does this well, letting us hate the bad guy enough and knowing something about other characters involved) But a preview is only going to focus on those cool action sequences. (which many reviewers describe as being like a videogame where its just fight after fight like a videogame)

Expectations for something to be awesome all the time only lead to disapointment.

*this was before it became a franchise and nobody had any idea what the movie was about

Edited June 2, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Radd]

And you don't have to be anything but an average viewer to notice, especially if other's comments are to be beleived.

Have you ever had to deal with clients on any sort of animation or graphic design project? Ever had to deal with the "average joe" passing over something you slaved away at for months, then getting all googly-eyed at something you slapped together in an hour using 3D Max and Character Studio? There's a reason they call it the "untrained eye".

I don't beleive the comparison to late 90's video game animation is inappropriate at all. Watching the cut scenes from Starcraft compared to this trailer only cements the analogy, the major differences being style and polygon count (and no, I'VE not addressed either as yet, which is the only person I'm speaking for; others can defend their own points).

Now, while I'm still in agreement that the animation is the weakest part of the Clone Wars trailer, watching Starcraft movie sequences really gives me the exact opposite impression.

Yes, it's a shame that motion and physics seem to take the biggest hit in most CG tv series ('ve met my share of very talented animators who've gone without work because fluid/realistic motion is such a low priority in everything except high budget features), but it is still noticeably better than Starcraft FMV sequences and any currently running CG tv series I've been unfortunate enough to catch a glimpse of.

Especially when you look at the scope. In Starcraft FMV, you're only seeing an average of one two characters in a scene, and maybe a few zerglings loping around. You'll also notice that in the old Blizzard FMV sequences, they cheat a lot. Lots of awkward camera angles, lots of smoke and dark shadows to conceal where they're cutting corners further, and only ever very little character animation amidst long pan shots across landscape and spacecraft flying around. When you do see lots of characters onscreen, it's like a split second shot, or a long distance shot where the characters are little lumps bounding across the landscape.

[Duke Togo]

Post-'82 George Lucas = Not a Good Movie. . . er, TV Show.

Clone Wars cartoon was fantastic and VERY well received.

[GRAND CANNON]

Clone Wars cartoon was fantastic and VERY well received.

Yes it was. And that's why I am eager for this version!

[Hurin]

Clone Wars cartoon was fantastic and VERY well received.

Hasn't Lucas promised more direct involvement in future television projects?

That can only be bad news.

[Hurin]

Empire Strikes Back FTW?

And Raiders of the Lost Ark. And American Graffiti. And Ep IV: A New Hope.

Then, fasten your seat-belts. Because the rest of his career = children, morons, prat-falls, and fart jokes.

[chrono]

My experience says that the "casual eye" cannot discern crap CG from decent quality hand drawn animation, or real world puppetry from CG 8 years ago.

Well then your experience has only been limited to like minded individuals and groups, because it's flat out incorrect from my hobbyist experience.

I have no hopes for this show to really grow much quality-wise and it'll probably only sell marginally well because of it's fan base appeal. But it should be a hugh hit locally with the closer markets.

[Mr March]

Have you ever had to deal with clients on any sort of animation or graphic design project? Ever had to deal with the "average joe" passing over something you slaved away at for months, then getting all googly-eyed at something you slapped together in an hour using 3D Max and Character Studio? There's a reason they call it the "untrained eye".

Now, while I'm still in agreement that the animation is the weakest part of the Clone Wars trailer, watching Starcraft movie sequences really gives me the exact opposite impression.

I would think the "subject's" expectation of quality between a professionally produced film and something their talented friend put together would be obvious. Sorry, but audiences are more sophisticated than people think and they can always tell when something is off despite the inability to articulate why.

As for the rest, like I said an arguement that can only blow up to unmanagable proportions. Now it's just debate about the degree to which the comparison fits as opposed to the apt analogy, which is a debate of minutiae that I'll pass.

[hutch]

While I think this looks like fun, I'm a little bored with The Clone Wars as a time period.

Why the heck can't we have a "Shadows of the Empire" animated series. Seriously. Luke was SO different in Jedi than he was in Empire, I'd love to see that story fleshed out in animated form.

Even though I don't mind the prequels, I like the OT characters better probably because it's what I grew up with.

[Radd]

I would think the "subject's" expectation of quality between a professionally produced film and something their talented friend put together would be obvious.

I don't understand this comment at all. What are you talking about?

[Mr March]

I don't understand this comment at all. What are you talking about?

The subject, meaning "person", meaning the "average joe" you're going on about.

[Radd]

No, I mean this part I'm putting in bold.

I would think the "subject's" expectation of quality between a professionally produced film and something their talented friend put together would be obvious.

What 'talented friend' as opposed to what professionally produced film? I must have missed something.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think he means Fan made CG animation by talented amateur vs professional (being paid to make) cg animation.

But really guys, tv series animation shouldn't be compared to movie quality. TV is free, (for people to see) while movies you pay for, so you should expect massive difference in quality. Regardless of the talent.

Edited June 5, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

I must have missed something.

How ironic, I think I've missed something too. But luckily, it just hit me. I think I'll stop being strung along. Back to your regular thread already in progress...

[Keith]

I think he means Fan made CG animation by talented amateur vs professional (being paid to make) cg animation.

But really guys, tv series animation shouldn't be compared to movie quality. TV is free, (for people to see) while movies you pay for, so you should expect massive difference in quality. Regardless of the talent.

Free my ass. TV is paid for by advertisers, who in turn get revenue from people who purchase the products they see on TV.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I knew someone would respond with "free my ass, ads pay for the show you see on free-to-air tv"

Which is why in the brackets you see: "(for people to see)" because I knew someone would say but they are not really free. As long as I myself don't watch the ads or buy the products in the ads or allow the exposure to get to me, to me it was free.

People love to say how what you watch on tv is paid for through ads, but what I mean is the end user watching it actually pays nothing to see it. But you know what I mean: tv is a different standard to movies. Anyone expecting movie level quality for tv is going to be let down.

Edited June 6, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[GobotFool]

Finally got around to watching the preview. The animation is definitly not pixar (by many miles), but it's certainly better than alot of the TV grade CG animation I have seen. I think my only real disapointment is that Lucasfilm feels the need to make this 3D CG in the 1st place. I really loved the clone wars shorts that aired on cartoon network a while back. I enjoyed the style and the storytelling. I dunno, I just hate it when people make something CG just because it's trendy, not because it's right for the story. Still, I might give this a chance when it comes out. So far the only thing that really really bugged me was that the non action animation (scenes where the characters were just standing there trying to emote) was very stiff. The action looks alright, though when a few storm troopers fell over dead it looked like an action figure falling over, not a real live (har har) corpse. I'm glad they are keeping the characters very stylized, because if they didn't the awkward animation would become even more obvious. Also I don't get people's desire to have all CG animated cartoons look super real. I mean, why bother making it a cartoon at all if all your aiming for is a absolutely realistic human likeness? Though in the end, I can forgive alot as long as the storytelling is decent. So yeah, I'll give the 1st few episodes a shot. Also who knows, this could just be a sample thrown togeather to give the fans a preview. But I'm optimistic that way.

Edited June 6, 2007 by GobotFool

[Duke Togo]

Also who knows, this could just be a sample thrown togeather to give the fans a preview. But I'm optimistic that way.

Considering we are a year away from release, I don't think we've seen the finished product yet.

[Warmaker]

If they're going to make it CG, at least make it look decent.

Like I said before, there are games that are over 10 years old with better cutscene quality than this.