Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[JsARCLIGHT]

Then again, most civvies don't need the armor piercing capabilities of the 5.7 anyway. Whatever is "lost" by using civilian legal ammo is all in the shooter's head.

381360[/snapback]

When you are shooting targets yes... when you are using the weapon for self defense that is another story alltogether. Then again how many perps the average civilian encounters will be wearing body armor? My guess is none.

[bsu legato]

Does FN still hold some sort of patent on the 5.7 ammunition? If not, all it will take is RCBS producing a set of reloading dies and shooters can make whatever kind of ammo they want. Whats the actual bore diameter on the 5.7 anyway? Could you potentially use lightweight, off-the-shelf .223 bullets?

Oh wait, THEY ALREADY DO MAKE 5.7 DIES.

Edited March 17, 2006 by bsu legato

[twich]

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to come off as holier than thou FN fanatic...but it just seems the mentality is that if the round doesnt start with .4 and end with 5 then you are some kind of wussy. Yes, I know for stopping power, you cant beat a .357 or a .40 or the ultimate and venerable .45 ACP. I owned 2 Glock 21's in my life and loved them to death....but as far as stopping power....I dont think anyone is going to keep going after I shoot them with a 5.7 and if the first one doesnt stop them, well I have 20 of its brothers in the mag(Five Seven Pistol) or 49 of its brothers(PS90 with 50 rd mag). But ultimately it comes down to personal preference and what you are willing to trust your life with...

So again, I am not trying to argue or anything...people have different opinions and they are going to keep those opinions. I guess I was just gut reacting to what I thought was going to turn into another bashing the Five Seven and PS90 because it shoots a .22 round argument. JsArclight, I respect your opinion and I know that you are very knowledgable about the round and that you have fired the PS90/P90, so dont think that I am trying to show you disrespect in anyway.

Twich

[twich]

Just to clarify for you BSU, it uses a .224 diameter bullet..but yes, people have used a 55 grain .223 bullet from 5.56 NATO round to make handloads,and yes people have made some rather hot and awesome handloads. I would suggest looking at the Five Seven site, there is a whole section devoted to handloading...they may be able to give you some good advice.

Twich

Edited March 17, 2006 by twich

[bsu legato]

Thanks, twich. I'll check it out.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to come off as holier than thou FN fanatic...but it just seems the mentality is that if the round doesnt start with .4 and end with 5 then you are some kind of wussy.  Yes, I know for stopping power, you cant beat a .357 or a .40 or the ultimate and venerable .45 ACP.  I owned 2 Glock 21's in my life and loved them to death....but as far as stopping power....I dont think anyone is going to keep going after I shoot them with a 5.7  and if the first one doesnt stop them, well I have 20 of its brothers in the mag(Five Seven Pistol) or 49 of its brothers(PS90 with 50 rd mag).  But ultimately it comes down to personal preference and what you are willing to trust your life with...

Even .45 ACP does not stop everyone all the time. I have seen police reports and even some footage of guys jacked up on PCP and Crack take several magazines of 9mm and even .40 S&W before going down... and usually only then they went down to a CNS hit to the spine or head. The real test of "stopping power" is causing a wound that not only incapacitates but also "neutralizes the threat" of an attacker... to most people that means killing them outright with a few shots quickly, which suffice it to say is not really possible unless you get a square shot between someone's eyes. So what it boils down to is how many rounds you have to expend on a target before the threat is neutralized. Old school thinking is less shots to solve a problem, new school thinking is the "burst" mentaility of more shots, lower accuracy but the problem is still solved.

Personally I come from the old school of thinking. You only get a limited window to engage a target most of the time and you really will only score half of your rounds in the black so to speak in combat conditions... so personally I choose a hard hitting man stopper. My round of choice in my carry weapon is Winchester Ranger .40 S&W. Smaller than .45 which gives me more rounds if I need them but more powerful than a 9mm. For my home weapons it's m G21 and a shotgun. Those are personal decisions and nothing more. Hell, 80% of the people in America carry nothing to defend themselves with and the logic of a .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 left at home prevails even if it is just a .22.

[Cdr Fokker]

89% here on that "test".

In other news, I'm off to Indy tomorrow for a gun show. Wonder if I'll pick anything up this time (last time I came away with a Winchester 94AE)... but probably not. Just looking to stock up on any inexpensive ammo for my military bolts and get a holster for a USP (latest addition to the "family armory"... thinking about getting into IDPA or IPSC with it now).

[Isamu Atreides 86]

An Ammo question:

what is the best way to clear your rifles at the range if you are shooting surplus corrosive ammo? i have heard a solution of amonnia and water does the trick, and i've also heard that normal dish washing liquid will do? what do yall recommend? Also, does hoppes #9 take care of the corrosive stuff, or is something else needed? i really wanna get some surplus stuff cheap for my new Nagants, so i need to know!

[Zentrandude]

I just clean the gun normaly after your done firing.

[Gaijin]

86%...cute lil test.

[JsARCLIGHT]

An Ammo question:

what is the best way to clear your rifles at the range if you are shooting surplus corrosive ammo? i have heard a solution of amonnia and water does the trick, and i've also heard that normal dish washing liquid will do? what do yall recommend? Also, does hoppes #9 take care of the corrosive stuff, or is something else needed? i really wanna get some surplus stuff cheap for my new Nagants, so i need to know!

381567[/snapback]

From Empire Arms website:

How to properly clean after using corrosive ammo

This is how I do it... it's easy, it's fast, and it's effective. Best of all you can do it while still on the firing-line and thus not offend your significant other with the usually pungent stench of commercial cleaners in your home.

Dilute regular household ammonia (sudsy is best but regular is OK too) to 2/1 or 3/1 with water (it can be as much as 10/1 if the smell really gets to you). Keep in a small bottle to take with you to the range but label it well so you don't mistake it for contact-lens solution or something (yeeeowww!) 

After you are done firing and while still at the range moisten (not dripping-wet, but sorta-soaked) a patch and run it down the bore and back once.  This instantly will neutralize and dissolve the corrosive salt-compounds from the primers and start in on the copper and powder fouling with a vengeance. 

Let stand for thirty seconds or so (just enough time to take off and throw away the ammonia-patch you just used and put a new, dry patch on your rod).  Run the dry patch (or several) down the bore and you are most literally done. 

DON'T OVERDO IT! More ISN'T better in this case...

You really don't want to slop ammonia (especially if heavily concentrated) all over the blued parts of the gun (as it will likely start to remove bluing after 30 minutes or so) and you also shouldn't leave the ammonia in the bore for an extended period of time (like hours, although I do know folks who do that anyway) as that may (not WILL, but MAY) cause "crazing" (microscopic pitting) of the metal.  I also have to caution against slopping ammonia on the wooden parts of your rifle, as it will usually strip the finish down to bare-wood, BUT if you follow my advise on HOW MUCH ammonia to use (only enough to dampen, but not soak, a single patch per gun) you will not EVER experience ANY problems at all...

If you are worried about primer residue getting on the bolt-face you may want to quickly wipe it with the wet patch before throwing the thing away and quickly dry it.  Same thing with the gas-tube in a semi-automatic rifle... don't go overboard, just wet it and dry it and get done with it. 

As a final precaution (since the ammonia will also kill all lubricants and leave the metal very dry) you can run a patch of gun-oil down the bore and leave it like that for protection from the elements (just be sure to run a dry patch down the bore before shooting it again).

I've been cleaning guns this way (including *every* gun we sell) for nearly thirty years, and have never had rust form in any bore (even here in humid Florida).

However, if you are (like some folks I have met) completely obsessed about leaving traces of ANY powder or copper residue in the bore of your weapon, you can certainly follow up your "field-cleaning" with a detailed, strenuous, traditional cleaning once you are home (or in a week or month from then). But I warn you... your bore is much more be likely to be damaged from your over-enthusiastic scrubbing to get out that "last speck of copper" (which has no affect on the actual accuracy of your firearm) than it will with all the rounds you could possibly send down it during your lifetime.

Dennis Kroh

I myself never shoot corrosive ammo so I don't know how well this works but I have heard several people claim to do this with no real problems.

[Noriko Takaya]

I clean mine the good old Marine Corps way! By the way, aren't corrosive primers in ammo rather rare nowadays, or am I just lucky enough to have never come across them?

[JsARCLIGHT]

They are very rare in all truth but still out there in large numbers. Corrosive ammo in today's world is mostly old stuff found in the surplus ammo that is flooding the US lately. I see old drypacks at gun shows in all the bizzare euro and eastern bloc calibers all the time from the late 60's and 70's that are all corrosive ammo. A lot of times the sellers don't even know the ammo is corrosive. Sometimes they even mark it as non-corrosive when it probably is.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Sportsmans guide has a lot of the old surplus 7.62 X 54R stuff. ammo is pretty expensive these days, so 440 rounds for 38 bucks is a pretty good deal.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=252313

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/browse/browse.asp?c=96&s=954

[CoryHolmes]

No way I would ever use a P90 or FN Five-Seven pistol for self defence unless I was being attacked by rabid bunnies. A calibre with the equivalent ballistics of a .22mag rimfire round is not my idea of a good fight stopper.

The P90's got that Tacti-cool factor which wows a lot of people, but it's woefully underpowered for self-defence or CQB.

Graham

381234[/snapback]

I like the fact that the ss19x has a small chance of overpenetration. It may be a bit underpowered like you say, but better several shots to stop a single person than a single shot that stops several people, most of them on the other side of the wall; especially for "home defense".

And I agree that yes, the P90 has lots of Tacti-cool, but I'm more pleased that it shows that someone is still thinking when it comes to design. The P90 pioneered or perfected things that are still being copied today, and it hits all my good points: Ambidexterous right out of the box, innovative shell removal system, clear magazine that's easy to see at a glance, light and compact and very portable.

At the very least, it'd make for a good backup for a CQB situation, especially given it's small size.

Any news about the legalities of the PS90 here in Canuckistan?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Except that all those innovations where already made by Steyr in the early '80s in a package called the AUG and by H&K in the G11 suite. The P90 is basically a modern day glamored up AUG with a proprietary top loading magazine and proprietary round. The difference was that the AUG was a monster that had to be downgraded to 9mm to prevent blowing holes in houses four blocks away.

I'd take one of those wonder caliber PDW AUGs (the short barrel ones that convert from 9mm to 5.56) over a P90 any day of the week.

[bsu legato]

Since we're on the subject of sexy bullpups, I found a pic of the production FS2000. Coming soon to a dealer near you.

[promethuem5]

Wow. That bullpup is awesome.

Incredibly random gun question by a gun noobie (I'm underage, so I haven't learned to shoot yet, but I'm really interested) In a revolver, when in the action cycle does the ammo wheel rotate? Like, before/as the trigger is pulled, as you cock the back thingy, after the shot discharges, or as the trigger is released?

[bsu legato]

Wellll.....there's two types of revolver actions. In a single action, as the hammer is cocked the cylinder will rotate to line up the next chamber with the bore. The cylinder locks up, followed by the hammer a fraction of an inch later. Then you have a simple, light trigger pull to fire the revolver. A modern double action will rotate the cylinder and cock the hammer as you pull the trigger. Like in the single action, the cylinder and hammer will lock up one after the other, and the last bit of trigger pull will fire the round. Needless to say, the double action trigger pull will be heavier than the single action, because you're both cocking the hammer and revolving the cylinder at the same time.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm still debating getting one of those FS2K's or not. It would not be that much of an inconvenience to me to buy one... runs the same mags and ammo as all my AR's. I guess I'm waiting to see when the black framed one will be released. The green is just so... green.

[bsu legato]

I actually think it looks pretty badass in OD. If it was any greener, I'd say "pass" but they used a nice shade for it.

Edited March 21, 2006 by bsu legato

[JsARCLIGHT]

OD Green weapons are a fad, just like those nickel frame/blued slide weapons from the late 80s/early 90s. In a few years some other finish will be the "in" color. And thanks to all the aramids and zytels on the market now every color of the rainbow is a possibility. IMHO guns are like cars... white cars are universally accepted and black guns are universally accepted.

Then again you already know my dislike of anything but black/blue finishes on weapons.

[Noriko Takaya]

Yep, a weapon done in black is my preference also.

[bsu legato]

If black is your only preference, I suppose you could always dye it. Guys have apparently had great success dyeing their H&K's a nice black, instead of that replusive pale grey that the SL8 comes in.

[twich]

Unfortunately, I think that FN will do what they did with the PS90...limit the production of black FS2000's to special dealer incentive programs...buy X number of guns and get a free sexy limited edition black PS90/FS2000.

I like the looks and ergonomics of the FS2000...I am just wondering if the civilian version of the FN SCAR will be less or more than the FS2000...also the FN SCAR will come in many calibre choices....5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, 7.62 x 39 (will accept AK mags), 6.8 SPC, possibly .300 Winchester. But this is all kinda moot, because they still have to come out with the FN SCAR for civilians...that wont happen until years end at the earliest...at least that is what I hear through the grapevine....

JsArclight, I have a question...Rhineland arms is coming out with their AR57 upper...I was told that this isnt considered a weapon, that I could order straight from Rhineland Arms and be shipped it without the need for a FFL Dealer or transfer fees....I was told that the lower was considered the firearm portion. Is what I heard true? Thanks!

Twich

[twich]

BSU, people have also dyed their PS90's black...with great success I guess....the stock is a two piece deal, so it is easy to disassemble and dye...check the FiveSevenforum for pics...

Twich

[JsARCLIGHT]

JsArclight, I have a question...Rhineland arms is coming out with their AR57 upper...I was told that this isnt considered a weapon, that I could order straight from Rhineland Arms and be shipped it without the need for a FFL Dealer or transfer fees....I was told that the lower was considered the firearm portion.  Is what I heard true?  Thanks!

382339[/snapback]

You are correct. The registered part of an AR15 is the lower receiver... more specifically just the aluminum block that holds the trigger and hammer guts that has the serial number on it. Every other part of an AR15 can be sold or bought openly.

The only AR part I am aware of other than a lower receiver that is classified as a firearm is the SHRIKE belt fed upper receiver, which can actually be fired without the lower receiver attached. Thus it was ruled to be a firearm in and of itself by the BATFE.

[promethuem5]

Black is usually pretty cool for weapons, but I must admit that the OD does look pretty sweet... something to break up the rest of your collection I guess. And thanks for the detailed answer to my retarded revolver question!

[Rocket Punch]

Sey 'ello to my lit'el fren'!

[Guest Bromgrev]

I like the non-slip finish on the slide.

[Lynx7725]

Ha! I scored the following for the test:

Plinker

You are 58% of a gun nut!

You're probably either a seasonal hunter or someone with a decent head knowledge of guns. Keep working at it, and you could really be a force to be reckoned with!

Thing is, the only firearm I've shot in my life was, oddly, the M203 40mm grenade launcher. I handled the M-16, SAW and GPMG back in my conscript days, but because of a broken collarbone in training was never able to fire one on the range.

[CoryHolmes]

Except that all those innovations where already made by Steyr in the early '80s in a package called the AUG and by H&K in the G11 suite. The P90 is basically a modern day glamored up AUG with a proprietary top loading magazine and proprietary round. The difference was that the AUG was a monster that had to be downgraded to 9mm to prevent blowing holes in houses four blocks away.

382301[/snapback]

You haven't said anything that I disagree with. I just think it'd be nifty to shoot the P90, just for fun. Besides, I really like the transparent, top-loading magazine. Very original and effective.

And... uh... and... uh... *trails off, looking at the FS2000* I'm sorry, what were we talking about?

Edited March 24, 2006 by CoryHolmes

[JsARCLIGHT]

The sad thing is I got to shoot one of those full auto P90s at a demo held at a local missouri dealer called CMMG. I was not all that impressed with it. It was fun and all but the firing position you had with it was sort of "ape" and I found the top loading mag to be quite cumbersome... then again I've been shooting forward release magazine rifles and carbines my whole life and anything that does not conform to the press-drop-and-pop mag change messes with my head. You can't fault the clear magazine though... I bought a few of those Ram-Line AR magazines just out of novelty but I find myself using them more and more at the range because it is so handy to be able to see how many rounds you have left in the mag. Too bad all those zytel and aramid magazines wear out so quickly. I already burned up one Ram-Line mag... nasty too, the mag release bar dug and dug at the release notch until it finally wore it down over time so the mag does not seat properly and causes jams.

[Chowser]

hmmmm...look what came in the mail today...

[Gaijin]

hmmmm...look what came in the mail today...

Officer Price $1850

Our Dept. would have cows if we put in orders with letterhead for those.