Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[striderhiryu]

i personally hate guns, but damn i have to admit many have quite interesting designs and capalilities.

my favorite weapons are swords, specially the wakisashi. i know this short sword is for defense mainly but i think that unlike the katana it can be moved alot faster so i only would need to parry any atack or avoid them and get really close to my opponent to make the damage, since at a close distance some one with a long sword could find difficult to stop the short range attack of a wakisashi, the only disadvantage is that is very risky.

as for the weapons i own here are the following:

katana

wakisashi

tanto

3 nunchakus

one hunting knife

boken ( not deadly but painful )

a few shurikens

the weapon in wich i am more skilled are the nunchakus, and the weapon in wich i am least skilled are the shurikens, i can only hit a target from two or three meters and average from five, from more distance i suck in my acuracy.

[Mechamaniac]

Damn, who is charging you that much for Paraord mags? Are they P14's?

You can get factory Paraords for $40 at a few spots I know and MecGar repro mags for about $20. I have a slew of MecGars for a few of my pistols and they seem to work just fine.

That was from Para Ord's website.

Granted, that's like getting car parts from the dealer, but I remember back when they first banned those "evil" 14 round mags, that you got a certificate with each new Para pistol that you bought that you could redeem for as many mags as you wanted for like 20 or 25 bucks per.

How things have changed...

I'm still kicking this around. On the one hand, I'm a traditionalist. I qualified originally with the 1911A1 in the MP's, and was not too pleased when they took away my Man's caliber pistol in favor of the wimpy M9 Beretta.

So, I'm old school enough to have been trained in the "If you can't hit em with 7 shots, then you're shite is weak" school. However, the Para Ord pistols are just so nice, and it still amazes me that they managed a double stack mag without any real discernible difference in the way the pistol feels.

So, old vs new, traditional vs high cap etc etc? Either way, It's gonna be a 1911 pistol, since it's just about my damned favorite auto pistol design, but I just have to choose.

the weapon in wich i am more skilled are the nunchakus, and the weapon in wich i am least skilled are the shurikens, i can only hit a target from two or three meters and average from five, from more distance i suck in my acuracy.

That's because you are hurling a piece of non-aerodynamic metal with only the force of your arm. Shurikens are neat and all, but I'll pass.

Nunchaku are sort of pointless to me too. I mean, what is the purpose of a weapon that is constantly folding in and around itself, which decreases it's effective range?. One of the good things about your standard Katana (at least if you have studied Iaido at all is that you have three feet of steel to keep between you and your opponent. IMHO, Shuriken, and Nunchaku are just overhyped thanks to the mid 80's chop socky movies that had kids giving themselves concussions all over the US.

Edited February 9, 2005 by Mechamaniac

[captain america]

Swords & glorified steak knives might have been good against unarmed or similarly armed peasants hundreds of years ago (or heck, against steak), but just short of being damn lucky, you won't win a fight against a guy with a 8-9 .40 slugs.

The scene when Harrison Ford shoots the sword-weilding arab in Raiders Of The Lost Ark comes to mind

[Zentrandude]

oh yes, the sound of a shotgun racking is a beautiful sound. I kinda miss it since we switched to semi-autos, now, all we hear is chik-chik.

back when we had pumps, we were chasing some car thieves, and one actually climbed a tree and refused to come down and told us to come and get him.

I racked the shotgun and said, "alright, it's duck hunting season, what, aw, c'mon sarge, how 'bout just a few warning shots, or can i just wing'im?" needless to say, he got down with a quickness.

most states are probably the same as in, you have a duty to retreat if you can do it safely, you can't use deadly force to defend property, you can only use deadly force to defend your life or the life of another that you believe is in imminent danger of serious physical harm or death. best thing is, when the boys in blue show up, say, officer, i was in fear for my life (or life of family member, pets don't count and are actually considered property). i thought that mofo was going to kill me. he said he was gonna cut me up and kill/rape/maim my family. (dead guys can't contradict you, but it's easier to tell the truth, this way, you won't have to remember what you lied about at a later date). yada, yada, yada.

and no, you can't shoot'em on your porch, drag'em in and put a kitchen knife in their hand. been done, we saw right through it, etc. etc.

and where i live make sure the body falls inside the house

[Mechamaniac]

Well it's not that she's a really small person, it's something with her wrist. She's fired guns before with an ex and can handle recoil.

So I'll check out the laws and the lease and if I can't get a revolver, I'll keep breaking in the spring in mind. The thing is I'd like to have the shotgun since a cop has told me that they've avoided confrontations just by raking the shotgun slide.

Racking the slide on a shotgun is one of the most distinct and easily recognisable sounds in the world. Almost everyone knows that Ka-Chunk-Chunk noise when they hear it. It's also good if possible to yell out a "Dirty Harry" phrase ("I've got a 12 gauge loaded with doube oh magnum buck! This thing will cut you in half! I don't want that stain on my carpet so please leave now!") when racking the slide from behind a door to put the fear into them even more.

Most criminals are cowards and usually want nothing to do with a determined homeowner with a loaded shotgun. Just remember what Opus said though, in most states your ability to defend your property and home can sometimes be quite limited.

The only problem with that theory is that if you pull a gun, ANY GUN, you had better be prepared to use it.

When I worked at the local gun shop, I used to have people all the time coming in, and saying..."I just want the gun, no shells." Or... "Do you have any without firing pins?" just because they wanted to be able to rack the slide and let fear do the rest.

While there definitely is something to be said for that very distinctive sound, it is best to remember that IF you get the one psycho who cares not for your tactics, you better have the balls and the bullets to back up your threat. It would be embarassing to have to go to the hospital to have your unloaded and/or non-firing shotgun surgically removed from your ass.

As John Wayne so eloquently put it in Rooster Cogburn - "A gun that's unloaded and cocked aint good for nothin!"

Edited February 9, 2005 by Mechamaniac

[JsARCLIGHT]

My preferred shotty of choice will actually not let you rack it unless it has food in the tube.

Edit: and if someone can name that make of shotty I'll post some pics of her! (to my immediate knowledge only three 12 gauge tube feed shotguns on the market will not allow you to rack them if they are dry)

Edited February 10, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Opus]

Swords & glorified steak knives might have been good against unarmed or similarly armed peasants hundreds of years ago (or heck, against steak), but just short of being damn lucky, you won't win a fight against a guy with a 8-9 .40 slugs.

The scene when Harrison Ford shoots the sword-weilding arab in Raiders Of The Lost Ark comes to mind

I think you'd be surprised just how effective a sword can be. If a swordsman is close enogh to use his weapon he'll cut you up before you can aim. Knives are even more dangerous because the weilder can get right up against you where you can't get a shot.

when I think of swords vs. pistols Yojimbo comes to mind.

[captain america]

If a swordsman is close enogh to use his weapon

Bingo. Guns have the advantage of stopping a bad guy BEFORE he gets in your personal danger zone...And even point-blank, I'll take my chances with the gun.

[Zentrandude]

If a swordsman is close enogh to use his weapon

Bingo. Guns have the advantage of stopping a bad guy BEFORE he gets in your personal danger zone...And even point-blank, I'll take my chances with the gun.

depends on situation. i would worry if your inside a building that has no lights. open fields then guns will rain surpreme on the melee warriors.

[captain america]

i would worry if your inside a building that has no lights.

I'd be even more worried if there were actually a sword-weilding ninja with night-vision goggles IN the building, but seriously, this getting rediculous. As important as we all like to think we are, I think there's a better chance of us winning the lottery than of being executed by a night-vision wearing, sword-weilding samurai...Heck, they don't even assassinate heads of state with that much eccentricity.

On a slightly more realistic note, what's the deal with the FN Five Seven? Exclusive police/military use, or are there any plans for civillian release?

[VF-17]

Actually, the Five-Seven is available for civlian use. Or at least here in AZ. The only ban that they had problems with is that the magazines only come in 20 rounders. When the ban got lifted, the local gun store got one in for sale. Looks like a turd. The slide is also covered in polimer. The mold line down the top middle was bugging the hell outta me. Ballistically, the round sounds awesome, but I would fear overpenetration and the cost for ammo is horendous. I'll stick to .45.

Edited February 10, 2005 by VF-17

[Zentrandude]

i would worry if your inside a building that has no lights.

I'd be even more worried if there were actually a sword-weilding ninja with night-vision goggles IN the building, but seriously, this getting rediculous. As important as we all like to think we are, I think there's a better chance of us winning the lottery than of being executed by a night-vision wearing, sword-weilding samurai...Heck, they don't even assassinate heads of state with that much eccentricity.

On a slightly more realistic note, what's the deal with the FN Five Seven? Exclusive police/military use, or are there any plans for civillian release?

funny you said that. last night on the news some 16 year old girl got her head scalped in a state park.

[captain america]

funny you said that. last night on the news some 16 year old girl got her head scalped in a state park.

We get our fair share of greusome crimes here too, no worries. I'd be curious to know under what circumstances this took place: time of day, physical state of the victim & attacker, alone or with friends? Wintesses, etc...

Five Seven: I find it simply mind-boggling that you guys can literally get your hands on guns that fire armor-piercing rounds, whereas us poor saps in the Kommunist Republic of Kanada are fighting to keep the government from banning the most common of hunting/ranch rifles

No joke, the cdn government is trying to ban the Ruger mini 14 as we speak... Along with a whole gaggle of other weapons, I have no doubt.

[Zentrandude]

they didnt say much but it was at night, theattacker knew her and wanted to get revenge. from the look of the skin patch the blade had to be long. the funny thing is the victom seems find just less hair.

edit: why they want to ban the mini-14?

Edited February 10, 2005 by Zentrandude

[JsARCLIGHT]

Keep in mind though the only ammo available to the public for the Five seveN pistol is the NON armor piercing kind... the AP ammo is still heavily controlled. Just because they make something for a gun does not mean everyone can get it... sort of like the whole "an AR-15 is a machinegun because they make them like that" thing.

[captain america]

Hi JS.

I'm guessing that the Five Seven would only really be good for plinking or target-shooting at that point, as the round ityself is so small and sharp that you'd basically have no stopping power whatsoever. Seems very controllable and precise though, from what I've read.

As for banning the Mini 14: your guess is as good as mine. The laws in Canada are written in such a way that they don't need to show just cause to ban a firearm; they need only DECIDE that the firearm in question is a menace and follow through to ban it. No explanations due. Unlike in the US, where the right to own/bear arms is precisely that: a right. Here in Kanada, gun ownership is a PRIVILEGE and can be revoked at anytime for pretty much any reason.

They've actually been at this for years now, and the only reason that really comes to mind is that like any repressive, self-serving government, it's in their own best interests to keep the masses weak, unarmed, and incapable of any sort of armed revolt. Otherwise, the tyrants would be out of a nice, cushy job.

[Lightning]

I'll take a Flare pistol that can hold a shotgun shell.

[Opus]

Hi JS.

I'm guessing that the Five Seven would only really be good for plinking or target-shooting at that point, as the round ityself is so small and sharp that you'd basically have no stopping power whatsoever. Seems very controllable and precise though, from what I've read.

As for banning the Mini 14: your guess is as good as mine. The laws in Canada are written in such a way that they don't need to show just cause to ban a firearm; they need only DECIDE that the firearm in question is a menace and follow through to ban it. No explanations due. Unlike in the US, where the right to own/bear arms is precisely that: a right. Here in Kanada, gun ownership is a PRIVILEGE and can be revoked at anytime for pretty much any reason.

They've actually been at this for years now, and the only reason that really comes to mind is that like any repressive, self-serving government, it's in their own best interests to keep the masses weak, unarmed, and incapable of any sort of armed revolt. Otherwise, the tyrants would be out of a nice, cushy job.

Dude, you should just give up and defect to the states.

[captain america]

Dude, you should just give up and defect to the states.

...That's precisely what I'm hoping to do with my own gun designs

[Opus]

Dude, you should just give up and defect to the states.

...That's precisely what I'm hoping to do with my own gun designs

Be careful, America is crawling with night-vision equipped ninja. Just remember, they're more afraid of you than you are of them.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The Five seveN is pretty much a plinker with the neutered non-AP ammo, but always keep in mind those small caliber pistols can be very, very nasty. The "rub" with the Five seveN, much like the AR rifles, is low caliber high capacity. With a magazine the same size as a normal one you can hold 20 high velocity bullets. As for the small caliber Sometimes they can be just as nasty as their bigger brothers. A simple .22 LR round can bounce around inside a victim and cause more damage from it's not exiting than a supersonic 9 mil will cause punching a hole clean through. The meager .22 pistol has been a favorite of assassins for a long time due to it's small caliber and notorious "rolling around" ability. Plink a man in the eye socket with a .22 pistol and he's toast, that little .22 will ricochet around in his skull and create brain soup.

At it's core (with the AP ammo) the Five seveN pistol is a mini nightmare, a Jacket buster with extra sauce on the side. But even the non AP ammo has a very high muzzle velocity... think of them as the AR15 pistol. Low caliber but high velocity equals more systemic shock rather than impact damage... the round may not knock you down but it will put a nice shockwave through your tissue that will cause some nasty internal wounds.

[captain america]

Yup, the biker gangs here use .22s for assassination as well, even in prison... The government doesn't seem to mind hardened criminals having guns but taxpaying citizens? That is simply not acceptable

[Mechamaniac]

Ah the sweet smell of malfunciton.

As for what exactly caused that malfunction I'd put my guess on one of two things... either a dangerous overloaded handload in a weak casing or the first bullet lodged in the barrel just inside the forcing cone and the second struck the first and "Elmer Fudded" the cyllinder.

I saw something similair happen to a Kimber 1911 once on a range... guy must have been shooting hot handloads and one had a weak case and blew up in chamber. It sent the magazine flying out the bottom of the gun and froze the entire action.

Just more reason to shoot quality ammo... and always expect the unexpected.

I can top that...

True story, though to this day, I still cannot believe that it happened to me.

My dad has an old 1917 S&W that will shoot either 45 LC or 45 ACP (if you use half moon clips)

He had it loaded with some old handloads using soft lead bullets when he gave it to me to test fire. 45 ACP using the clips.

I went to the range, and popped off a round, then two, then three, then four, and then was surprised when I could not fire a fifth.

I looked at the gun, and there was a round stuck in between the cylinder and the mouth of the barrel so the cylinder would not turn.

I then pulled the target back, NO HOLES.

I took the gun back to the gun shop where I worked at the time, and pulled three bullets out of the barrel that had lodged at different points, and actually had to cut through the fourth that was lodged in between the cylinder and the mouth of the barrel. Thankfully, the bullet was soft lead so that was easy.

More thanfully, the gun did not blow up in my face. I guess Smith & Wesson just don't make em like they used to!.

[VF19]

The 5.7 round is fairly nasty, but many think of it as a jacket piercer that goes through ANYTHING, in one side and out the other. Not true. The 5.7 was developed to hav ethe stopping power of a 5.56 in a small package. the Five seveN has almost no recoil, as does the P90. Also, the P90 will pierce all Class I, II, IIA, and some III's, but it will not penetrate anything a 5.56 wont. My buddy got a new issue vest, Class III. Stops a 5.56 dead in it's tracks, and most 7.62's are toast as well. Even got a new class three helmet, does the same thing. Still put you in the hospital from blunt force trauma, however.

The same is true of the new 4.6mm round from HK. Small, AP, and high velocity. Ideally, it goes through protection, and does just as most people have said, bounce around.

[Chowser]

I think you'd be surprised just how effective a sword can be. If a swordsman is close enogh to use his weapon he'll cut you up before you can aim. Knives are even more dangerous because the weilder can get right up against you where you can't get a shot.

heh, we actually had an 8 hour class on this, no matter how fast any of us were, from 21 feet, if your gun was holstered, you could not get your gun out in time before the guy with the knife closed with ya, the only time we could get the gun out was if we started moving backwards, but even though we got shots off, the guy still ran into us.

now, if we knew the guy had a knife, of course, we'd all have our guns out and everyone would be hitting the 3-day lotto. but surprise attacks, yuck, most of the time, we got cut/stabbed/etc. of course, when we started kicking chairs in the instructor's way, he got a little mad, but we told him, hey, gotta use your environment.

also, we shocked him him a few times and ran at him, took a few cuts to the arm, but we still shot him good.

most of us wear level II vests with some stab/slice protection nowadays.

our swat guys wear their II vests and their IIIA or III vests as well.

I'm normally wearing the level II/spike level I vest, but I've got my spare (old) level II vest in my tactical carrier. don't know if it'll even slow down a rifle round, but with my luck, i'll get hit not on the vest anyways.

recently, I've been shooting up alot of our old vests, the older ones (all kevlar) stop rounds much better than the newer stuff. I was shooting some "AP" handgun ammo and they were penetrating all the newer mixed vests, but not the older all kevlar ones. they wouldn't penetrate 1" bulletresistent glass panels that banks use, but it pretty much started shattering it, a full mag will probably break it up. the 9mms were doing better than the 40 (faster velocity, I guess). wonder what would happen if i yanked the bullet out from the 9 and reloaded it into a .357 case...

Course, the M16 went through all the vests.

ummm, lost my train of thought,

oh well, my cpl. was at the shot show and asked FN how would he purchase the AP ammo for the FiveseveN and P90, and he was told it would have to be ordered through the dept. and shipped to the dept. with of course the required letterheads, etc.

[bsu legato]

Well since this thread is alive and kicking, I figure I'll post a link that shows that the eulogy for the XM-8 may have also been premature.

Clicky Clicky

And just because its a sexy picture, here's some G36KA2 pr0n.

Edited February 15, 2005 by bsu legato

[JsARCLIGHT]

Someone sent this to me yesterday (one of the cops I help train). I've seen this clip before and some of you may have as well but I just love it... especially with the Conan the Barbarian music.

GE Miniguns in Action... set to MUSIC!

[CoryHolmes]

oh well, my cpl. was at the shot show and asked FN how would he purchase the AP ammo for the FiveseveN and P90, and he was told it would have to be ordered through the dept. and shipped to the dept. with of course the required letterheads, etc.

Cops carrying P90s? That's a weird thought, though it would fit rather nicely into a cop car

[Shmitty]

That G36KA is a thing of beauty, thanks for the pic.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Cops carrying P90s? That's a weird thought, though it would fit rather nicely into a cop car

Here in STL beat cops cannot order the P90 or it's ammo. Only the department can procure the weapons and ammo and only for the ERT team members. Add to that that then the ERT team members cannot even take home the weapons, they have to remain in the lockup or in the RDT. Heck, here beat cops cannot even have a AR15 in their squad... only the shift supervisors and sergents can have a "trunk gun" in the cruiser.

As far as the P90 and it's ammo go we here in STL have no need for them. We ordered a giant shipment of H&K MP5 and the new UMP weapons a while back. These are great guns and there is no need to upgrade to the P90... we don't come up against too many times when we would need that kind of penetrating power.

[Zentrandude]

im proly the only person in the world that hates g36 rifles, sure they look good and functional but I hate it for the reason its way over used in movies like the p90.

[Graham]

I'm not impressed by the G36 rifle I've handled. While reliability may be better than M16 type rifles in adverse conditions, the G36 has a horrible, horrible trigger IMO. Assault rifle manufacturers should all take a lesson from SIG, as the SIG-550 series of rifles have the sweetest non-custom trigger I have ever felt on a military rifle.

The G36 I tried also had that horrible dual sight system (red dot sight ontop of a low magnification optical sight). the red dot sight was far too small and you had to break your cheek weld to sight through it, which I did not like. The version with the single optical sight seems better, but I haven't shot it, only handled it at SHOT show.

I'm lucky enough in my previous job to have a chance to shoot most of the common 5.56mm and 7.62mm rifles and given my preference, I'll take a SIG-550 in 5.56mm any day of the week and an FN-FAL or HK G3 in 7.62mm over a G36.

Graham

[Cdr Fokker]

The G36 I tried also had that horrible dual sight system (red dot sight ontop of a low magnification optical sight). the red dot sight was far too small and you had to break your cheek weld to sight through it, which I did not like. The version with the single optical sight seems better, but I haven't shot it, only handled it at SHOT show.

I've heard this complaint several times from ex-Bundeswehr individuals (regarding the red-dot, primarily). Probably the reason why KSK and other special forces units are often seen using the single-optic carry handle with EOTech's monuted on them.

Such a pity. German optics are generally excellent all-around.

[bsu legato]

Eh..creepy 2-stage triggers are pretty much what I'm accustomed to with milsurp rifles. I'm sure the Sig is very nice and all, but like anything Swiss it doesn't come cheap.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The AR15 family is the only weapon that I myself am personally comfortable with. I thank uncle sam, my dad training me on an old SP1 and my own personal interest in them for my level of preference. A lot of people hate the AR but in the hands of a well trained person they are nice rifles. I have yet to shoot a modern battle rifle that I feel as comfortable with as my trusty old A1... then again familiarity and prowess only come from experience and use. If I had access to the new toys on a more regular basis I'm sure I'd warm up to them more.

Then again I just love the cat calls I get at the SLCPD training range when that old A1 comes out of the case... it's like dragging out a wooden leg to shoot with in the minds of some of the younger guys. They prefer their new flashy weapons to the "classics". I and the other weapons instructor seem to be "old timers". His rifle of choice is a Springfield M1A1 recon. He is the oldest instructor there... having been a Marine in Vietnam he has a level of attachment to his M1 that I have with my A1 commando.