Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[Mechamaniac]

I and the other weapons instructor seem to be "old timers". His rifle of choice is a Springfield M1A1 recon. He is the oldest instructor there... having been a Marine in Vietnam he has a level of attachment to his M1 that I have with my A1 commando.

Sounds like the way my Dad is attached to his M14.

He was in Viet Nam as well. I think he hit just when they were phasing out the 14 in favor of the 16, so he trained on the M1 and the M14 in Basic, but carried the M16 when he was in country.

He doesn't dislike the M16, he just prefers the M14, and is still frighteningly accurate with iron sights despite the fact that he's pushing 60.

The only enmity I have ever heard from him with regard to a service weapon was with the M60, and that was not as much a functionality issue, as it is that noone wanted to be the guy shooting the 60 in the sh!t because the 60 position would almost always draw the first RPG round.

[bsu legato]

How big is too big? I think that THIS is pushing the boundaries of practicality. Interesting find, though. It makes you wonder whats still lurking in warehouses over in Eastern Europe.

[Mechamaniac]

How big is too big? I think that THIS is pushing the boundaries of practicality. Interesting find, though. It makes you wonder whats still lurking in warehouses over in Eastern Europe.

Cool,

IIRC, the Soviets had a newer version of this back in the 80's/90's. The Jane's book we had in the scif referred to it as the "Destroyer" or something along that line. I'm not sure if that was an official NATO designation or something those silly limeys came up with who make the Jane's books.

[Lightning]

I'll take one.....

[Zentrandude]

How big is too big? I think that THIS is pushing the boundaries of practicality. Interesting find, though. It makes you wonder whats still lurking in warehouses over in Eastern Europe.

gota love those russian pipe guns. simple but effective, now I need a couple rhinos to charge at me so I have a reason to need an anti-tank round slinging weapon.

[Opus]

Just like everything Russian, it's design was ripped off from something else.

the PANZERBCHSE39 (this one's been modded into a grenade launcher)

[Mechamaniac]

Just like everything Russian, it's design was ripped off from something else.

Those damn Russkies!

We Americans would never do anything like that! (MG-42 - M60)

[Opus]

Just like everything Russian, it's design was ripped off from something else.

Those damn Russkies!

We Americans would never do anything like that! (MG-42 - M60)

More like MG-42 and FG-42 had a baby named M-60. But I won't tell if you don't.

[bsu legato]

Man....the M60 is a good example of engineers not being able to leave well enough alone.

[Phyrox]

I am not a gun nut or anything, but I thought the PTRD, while owing a bit to the PzB38, was a gererally innovative gun in its own right. Certainly not a copy.

On a more personal note, I don't own any guns, but I have wanted a PTRD or PTRS for a while. Not to go shooting with, just to have as a piece of interesting military history. And now here is my chance...but I don't think I can justify spending $1,700 of my student loans on a totally superfluous antitank rifle. Shoot.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Look for a dummy or a Dewat. Dummy guns exsist in almost all forms if you look hard enough. I myself have a Dewat MP40 that I gleened from a friend's relative's estate. It's bad ass... as a paperweight.

[Kin]

I'm looking for this weapon and I don't know it's type or name:

Shoulder fired missile launcher. Has 4 holes for 4 missiles and it's shaped like a box.

[Kin]

Just like everything Russian, it's design was ripped off from something else.

Those damn Russkies!

We Americans would never do anything like that! (MG-42 - M60)

ahum... FG-42 Falschirm Gewehr

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm looking for this weapon and I don't know it's type or name:

Shoulder fired missile launcher. Has 4 holes for 4 missiles and it's shaped like a box.

If it is the weapon Rae Don Chong fires at the police truck in Arnold Schwarzenegger's movie Commando then that is the M202 A2 "flame rocktet" unit.

It was basically a four shot incendiary rocket launcher that was uncle sam's supposed replacement for the flamethrower. Basically it lobs these crappy incendiary rockets at it's target... the rockets don't "explode" per se as much as they burst into flame and burn for a long time. The weapon was supposed to be used to clear bunkers, trenches, buildings and whatnot without using explosives. Needless to say... it sucked. It was useless against armor and pretty much useless against hardened positions as well. The military abandoned it in the '80s.

Edit: the M202 A2 seems to have the nickname "Flash" on the internet... most likely thanks to the Soldier of Fortune game that had that weapon and called it thus. I have never heard the M202 called a "Flash" before.

Edited February 21, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[VF-17]

I am not a gun nut or anything, but I thought the PTRD, while owing a bit to the PzB38, was a gererally innovative gun in its own right. Certainly not a copy.

On a more personal note, I don't own any guns, but I have wanted a PTRD or PTRS for a while. Not to go shooting with, just to have as a piece of interesting military history. And now here is my chance...but I don't think I can justify spending $1,700 of my student loans on a totally superfluous antitank rifle. Shoot.

Well, anyone in the US don't need to worry about this rifle:

1.45 Centimeters equals 0.570866 Inches

Oops, over .50. Can only own it with a class 3 I believe.

[Kin]

I'm looking for this weapon and I don't know it's type or name:

Shoulder fired missile launcher. Has 4 holes for 4 missiles and it's shaped like a box.

If it is the weapon Rae Don Chong fires at the police truck in Arnold Schwarzenegger's movie Commando then that is the M202 A2 "flame rocktet" unit.

It was basically a four shot incendiary rocket launcher that was uncle sam's supposed replacement for the flamethrower. Basically it lobs these crappy incendiary rockets at it's target... the rockets don't "explode" per se as much as they burst into flame and burn for a long time. The weapon was supposed to be used to clear bunkers, trenches, buildings and whatnot without using explosives. Needless to say... it sucked. It was useless against armor and pretty much useless against hardened positions as well. The military abandoned it in the '80s.

Edit: the M202 A2 seems to have the nickname "Flash" on the internet... most likely thanks to the Soldier of Fortune game that had that weapon and called it thus. I have never heard the M202 called a "Flash" before.

WOW, thnx for the info... it's very hard to find some real pics of it.... some badass weapon

Edited February 21, 2005 by Kin

[Mechamaniac]

WooHoo!

Pic'd up my new baby today...

Para Ordnance P-14-45 Limited Match...

[bsu legato]

Great looking Para you have there, Mechamaniac. I'd get one myself, but with our assinine mag capacity laws the P-14 loses its utility. When you're limited to 10 rd mags, there's little point in getting a double stack .45 when a single stack 10 will do the same thing.

[Mechamaniac]

Great looking Para you have there, Mechamaniac. I'd get one myself, but with our assinine mag capacity laws the P-14 loses its utility. When you're limited to 10 rd mags, there's little point in getting a double stack .45 when a single stack 10 will do the same thing.

Thanks BSU.

Truth be told, the P14 was merely an indulgence. I was trained on the standard 7 shot 1911A1 when I was in the MP's. I qualified with it a number of times, and to be honest....if I can't hit em in 7 shots, then I deserve to have my ass handed to me.

However, the Para pistols are just so cool in that they have not only increased the capacity with little to no added bulk in the grip, but they also add so many of the 1911 tuneups as standards, like the enhanced beavertail safety, the commander style hammer, full length guide rod, ambidextrous safety etc etc.

I just dig the way they're built, and the options they pack so that was my primary impetus for snagging it in favor of the standard 7 shot.

[Noriko Takaya]

WOW, thnx for the info... it's very hard to find some real pics of it.... some badass weapon

Hey, you want a better image of that weapon? Let me figure out what I did with my original issue Marine Corps Guidebook. It's listed in the book. I also had the honor of firing one of the last remaining launchers still in stock with the Corps back in '83 while in Infantry Training School. Yep, the Corps is old school when it comes to weapons. I think the Army got rid of theirs before we did. The damned thing had the loudest report of any rocket I fired, and I thought the ground based TOW and Dragon launchers were bad.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Noriko Takaya

[twich]

So what are your guys thoughts on the HK SL8-1 and the HK USC? Do they make an after market magazine for the SL8-1 that allows for greater than a 10-shot capacity? I really like the look and ergonomics of the rifle, but I also like the SA-58 from DSArms I like the price tag as well, and the fact that it comes with the 20 rd mag and the extra mags are quite cheap. Now, the thing that would be great would be a G36 Semi-Auto only...or a civilian model...but I dont suppose that there will be one any time soon.

Let me know what you guys think, as I am looking to purchase a rifle in the summer time, and want to know the best bang for my buck, so to speak.

Thanks

Twich

DS Arms

Edited February 26, 2005 by twich

[JsARCLIGHT]

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a "factory" SL8 high capacity magazine. The SL8 was designed for a "assault weapons ban" america and it has several built in features that go so far as to prevent the weapon from taking high cap magazines. On the inside of the the magwell it has these little nubs that prevent the use of G36 mags so the only mags that will fit normally are the 10 round special SL8 magazines. A way "around" this is to get one of the conversion kits and convert the magwell to accept AR15 magazines. With that conversion you can run all manner of standard AR mag with the only ecceptions being the Ramline 90 round and the Beta C mag (I have been told that is because the large magwell sides on the SL8 hit the drums of those mags and prevent them from inserting properlly.

The SL8 is an excellent target rifle but it suffers from being H&K's attempt to get a quality rifle in the hands of american shooters and get around the import and assault weapons ban at the time... the result is a high quality, nice rifle that some say looks fugly and has stunted options for growth beyond what it is. But there are several companies out there like Top Notch in Arizona that make high quality conversion kits that convert your ban baby SL8 or USC into G36 or UMP clones that look so close their momma couldn't tell at 20 feet.

As for the SA-58 it is one of a long, varied myriad of FAL clones on the market. FAL's are nice weapons, if a little heavy for what they are. Like the old G3 and M14 the FAL is an old school main battle rifle from the days before Vietnam when military doctrines stressed long range single shot accuracy and stopping power above all else. I once owned a full size FAL a long time ago and I personally found it to be a nice weapon... if a tad heavy, but it was a full size rifle and not the carbine that you are looking at. One quick thing to keep in mind on the FALs are that they come in two different types of receiver: inch and metric. Those two types also take two different magazines, once again inch and metric pattern. Make sure you have the right magazine for the right receiver otherwise feeding and loading issues will crop up.

[twich]

yeah, that is really my delimma...I dont want a heavy, honking weapon...I owned a HK-91 clone, and I carried around, what I would call a full battle pack...9 20-rd mags filled with 7.62x51 and a glock 21 with its 3-10 rd clips and extra ammo in a butt pack, i also carried a hatchet, 2 knives(Cold Steel-Recon tanto(7inch blade), Master Hunter(5 inch blade) sleeping bag, poncho, 2 full canteens and food in the regular pack....and it wasnt the new system either that has the weight bearing vests, this was the H Harness and pistol belt.

I like the penetration and power of the 7.62 round, but the weight makes it taxing to say the least....I like the idea of a SMG, because of weight, but want better penetration and stopping power....so I dont know. I liked the idea of the Civilian FN P-90, but I am not sure about that based on expense of the ammo, and the possible contraversy.

Question....do they make high capacity clips for the HK USC? I remember going to a gun shop around here and the guy told me that it takes standard HK USP .45 clips...I was wondering if perhaps they made a 20 or 30 rd after market clip, or does it, like the HK SL8-1 have nubs that make it so that you can only have a special, factory clip in the mag-well?

Thanks,

twich

Edited February 26, 2005 by twich

[JsARCLIGHT]

I personally have not seen a "original" USC up close to know... I've seen a lof ot SL8's but never a "non converted" USC. I have been told (and I believe the sources) that the USC is exactly like the SL8 in that it is purpose made to not accept high capacity magazines. I know a local gun shop owner who bought a USC then had it converted into a UMP clone before he even shot the weapon in it's standard form. I know one of the main points he made about the conversion was that it would accept UMP magazines after the conversion but not before. Much like the SL8 you can also get a kit that converts the USC magwell to accept greasegun magazines. The main thing to keep in the back of your mind when looking at the USC and SL8 are that they are purpose made weapons, designed to be completely "neutered" so they could get around the strict US import regulations and (at the time) the omnibus crime bill (1994 assault weapons ban). The sad truth of the SL8 and USC are that they are outstanding weapons but very few sold because they were just so "different" and "ugly" as some people called them. H&K has even stopped importing them due to their poor sales, so any of them you see out there on the market are all you are going to see from now on. H&K is in a tough spot right now when it comes to long guns (rifles and carbines) in respect to US sales. The only way they can legally release their weapons here in the US in non neutered forms would be for them to have a production plant here and a sub-company here (that was US owned and controlled) which would allow them to legally make their weapons in "pre-ban" configurations (single shot of course) and sell them to the US market. It seems H&K is just not willing to do that.

On the same front as H&K are the clone makers. H&K clone companies like Special Weapons and Bobcat Weapons (which technically are the same darn company, just under different names) make "bootleg" H&K copies of their bread and butter weapons along with some new offerings like their SP-10 carbine (sort of an amorphodite ugly cousin of the UMP). If you really want a H&K weapon like an HK94, 91 or a SP89 then buying a Special or Bobcat weapon at one tenth the price of the real H&K weapons seems like a steal... up until the point you actually pull the trigger on the weapon. Special and Bobcat weapons require lots of after market gunsmith tweaking to make them serviceable weapons... in other words they are the MPC of the gun world. Lots of promises, very high price and crap for quality. I personally own a SP-10 that had to be sent back three times to get the thing to eject correctly and on the third time they denied my warranty claiming that "my addition of a Top Notch folding stock voided my warranty" so I sent it to Top and they had it running like a typewritter in one week. I learned my lesson: when possible always buy original H&K.

[Opus]

First comes the disclaimer. I'm a vintage kind of guy. I'd say the best bang for your buck if you want an H&K is a G3/HK91 or a Cetme. They may not be the latest or the most high tech but they're good sturdy straigh shooting rifles. FALs are probably my 2nd favorite rifles next to the M-14. I currently have an StG-58 Austrian liscenced FAL that I in love with. It's a para model with side folding stock and 16" barrel. It shoots 1" groups at 400m. It doesn't seem that heavy to me but then again I lugged an M-14 and later an M-21 through just about every terrain imaginable for 7+ years.

[Mechamaniac]

First comes the disclaimer. I'm a vintage kind of guy. I'd say the best bang for your buck if you want an H&K is a G3/HK91 or a Cetme. They may not be the latest or the most high tech but they're good sturdy straigh shooting rifles. FALs are probably my 2nd favorite rifles next to the M-14. I currently have an StG-58 Austrian liscenced FAL that I in love with. It's a para model with side folding stock and 16" barrel. It shoots 1" groups at 400m. It doesn't seem that heavy to me but then again I lugged an M-14 and later an M-21 through just about every terrain imaginable for 7+ years.

Finally, another large caliber aficionado!

I'm with you man, if I had my choice, I would leave the itty bitty 5.56mm behind. I'm a former 60 gunner myself, and I appreciate the value of a larger, man stopping round.

Having humped 28 pounds of M60 over all kinds of terrain myself, I know where you're coming from.l

I'm also an avowed aficionado of the M14, G3, and would LOVE to have an FAL.

Keep your M16's, M4's etc etc, Give me something in 7.62 any day.

[bsu legato]

Meh...you sissies and your 7.62 NATO. Real men shoot 30-06.

[Mechamaniac]

Meh...you sissies and your 7.62 NATO. Real men shoot 30-06.

Hey, 30 caliber is good too.

Unfortunately, we (in the US) haven't had a decent military rifle chambered in .30 cal since the M1 Garand, and the BAR.

[Opus]

I really enjoy shooting .303 as well. There's something so satisfying about the big black and purple bruises it leaves on your shoulder.

[Mechamaniac]

He he heee.

I just discovered this pic of me with my baby....

I was the OPFOR that day, hence the East German fatigues etc...

[twich]

Anyone hear of the new pistols being offered by Glock and HK?

The Glock is the Glock 37 which features a new type of ammo the 45 GAP

I think also there is a Glock 38 and 39, but I dont know much info on them...but a new type of ammo....just like the 357SIG.

The HK is rather interesting, it is the UCP, or Ultimate Combat Pistol, I guess it is suppose to be the companion to the MP7 PDW, and is in the same 4.7x30 calibre ammo, I guess it will also share the same clip...either a 20 or 40 round ammo capacity.

While I like the idea of the HK weapons, I dont know if we will ever see them here in the states, but if we are getting the FN P90 Civilian and the Fn Five-Seven, then I dont see why we would not get these....I like the look of both the HK weapons...as for the Glocks....I like the Glock 21, and unless the 45GAP can provide the same knockdown power as the regular ACP ammo, but saves weight, there is really no advantage that i can see to it, but it is interesting, to say the least.

Twich

Edited March 2, 2005 by twich

[Kin]

He he heee.

I just discovered this pic of me with my baby....

I was the OPFOR that day, hence the East German fatigues etc...

damn ur a badass!!

[Kin]

WOW, thnx for the info... it's very hard to find some real pics of it.... some badass weapon

Hey, you want a better image of that weapon? Let me figure out what I did with my original issue Marine Corps Guidebook. It's listed in the book. I also had the honor of firing one of the last remaining launchers still in stock with the Corps back in '83 while in Infantry Training School. Yep, the Corps is old school when it comes to weapons. I think the Army got rid of theirs before we did. The damned thing had the loudest report of any rocket I fired, and I thought the ground based TOW and Dragon launchers were bad.

Wow that's really cool! So what's the impact radius? Some pics would be cool yeah

[Opus]

WOW, thnx for the info... it's very hard to find some real pics of it.... some badass weapon

Hey, you want a better image of that weapon? Let me figure out what I did with my original issue Marine Corps Guidebook. It's listed in the book. I also had the honor of firing one of the last remaining launchers still in stock with the Corps back in '83 while in Infantry Training School. Yep, the Corps is old school when it comes to weapons. I think the Army got rid of theirs before we did. The damned thing had the loudest report of any rocket I fired, and I thought the ground based TOW and Dragon launchers were bad.

Wow that's really cool! So what's the impact radius? Some pics would be cool yeah

I got to fire one of these during the "weapons familiarization" portion of ranger school. IIRC it fires M235 incendiary rockets with an effective blast radius of about 20 meters. It's basically used against soft targets like infantry of un-armored vehicles/structures.

[Noriko Takaya]

WOW, thnx for the info... it's very hard to find some real pics of it.... some badass weapon

Hey, you want a better image of that weapon? Let me figure out what I did with my original issue Marine Corps Guidebook. It's listed in the book. I also had the honor of firing one of the last remaining launchers still in stock with the Corps back in '83 while in Infantry Training School. Yep, the Corps is old school when it comes to weapons. I think the Army got rid of theirs before we did. The damned thing had the loudest report of any rocket I fired, and I thought the ground based TOW and Dragon launchers were bad.

Wow that's really cool! So what's the impact radius? Some pics would be cool yeah

I still haven't found my Marine Corps Guidebook yet. It has a subchapter in it with the damed weapon, and quite a nice picture of it too.