The Xbox 360 Thread!

[mikeszekely]

It wouldn't be smart to enable playing games on HD-DVDs? I figure if they're going have an HD-DVD player in their console, you'd at least enable it to play games on HD-DVDs as well. I mean...HD-DVDs do have more space than regular DVDs, right?

Yes, it really wouldn't be smart. Microsoft would run the risk of alienating early adopters. Developers would be forced to release the games on DVD-ROM anyway.

Besides, like I said before, DVD = better load times than Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. It won't be an issue for movies, since they'll playback at 1x anyway. But to load a level from a disc to the RAM, speed matters. As it stands, what loads in 10 seconds from a DVD on the 360 would take 40+ seconds to load from the Blu-Ray drive planned for the PS3.

Space really shouldn't be an issue. Even current-gen games as massive as GTA San Andreas fit neatly onto a single-layer DVD. I'm tired of hearing about how one developer has already filled four dual-layer discs... use in-engine cut scenes instead of pre-renders!

Hey Mike, can you confirm this latest delay?

We're currently thinking 12-23 for DoA4.

[Hikuro]

Well if I don't get a phone call next week, then we'll know.

[Apollo Leader]

As it stands, what loads in 10 seconds from a DVD on the 360 would take 40+ seconds to load from the Blu-Ray drive planned for the PS3.

352708[/snapback]

I'm just curious if the loading speed rates for the PS3's Blu-Ray drive is posted anyware. I would think Sony would be nuts to release a machine with slower loading speeds then what the PS1 and Saturn had!

Anyway, I've put two nights in a row of playing COD2 on Xbox Live for three hours+ each night. Fun stuff! Though it seems like some serious lag time shows up about 30 to 50% of the time (especially during the more active hours). I figure my system now has over 24 hours of good use of it now and no signs of any problems yet. The most fun I've had with a new gaming console in quite some time.

[Ladic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

[Apollo Leader]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

 

352861[/snapback]

Guess we know what will be used on the PS4 or Xbox 720 in the next decade!

[twich]

Wow, those numbers for the HVD are quite impressive. I wonder what will actually make it in consumers hands and what will become in common use as a replacement for DVD's.

Twich

[Duke Togo]

DVD won't be replaced anytime soon. Its too widely adopted at this point, people are not yet ready to switch over their entire collection when they just did so in the past 5 years.

[F360°]

Yes, it really wouldn't be smart.  Microsoft would run the risk of alienating early adopters.  Developers would be forced to release the games on DVD-ROM anyway.

Besides, like I said before, DVD = better load times than Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.  It won't be an issue for movies, since they'll playback at 1x anyway.  But to load a level from a disc to the RAM, speed matters.  As it stands, what loads in 10 seconds from a DVD on the 360 would take 40+ seconds to load from the Blu-Ray drive planned for the PS3.

Space really shouldn't be an issue.  Even current-gen games as massive as GTA San Andreas fit neatly onto a single-layer DVD.  I'm tired of hearing about how one developer has already filled four dual-layer discs... use in-engine cut scenes instead of pre-renders!

352708[/snapback]

I'm kinda confuse here,, please tell me where you're getting those numbers because it seems like you mess up with the X speed rate converting or something like that.

Due to the size difference in disc capacity a certain X speed in one format is not the same as another format. similar to cdr at 48x = 2:50 minutes for burning 700mb while DVDr burning at 8x = 9 minutes for 4300mb

a 12x dvd-rom can read cds at around 40x.

so blue-rey should be something like x BR speed, x Dvd speed, x CD speed

As it stands, what loads in 10 seconds from a DVD on the 360 would take 40+ seconds to load from the Blu-Ray drive planned for the PS3.

I just can't agree with this statement.

The dvd rom on the xbox360 is a 12X reader (that's even slower than my 3 year old 16x dvd-rom). I have no idea what speed the PS3 drive would be but I'm guessing it will be at least in the area of 12x DVD reading speed and whatever blue-rey reading speed , perhaps it's 2x, 3x or 4x ,, heck they might just give it 3x because it's PS3

I'm confuse on where you even get those numbers, because your posts lately is really starting to be fanboyish..

Edited December 19, 2005 by F360°

[mikeszekely]

I'm kinda confuse here,, please tell me where you're getting those numbers because it seems like you mess up with the X speed rate converting or something like that.

I'm not stupid, thanks. I know what I'm talking about.

I'm confuse on where you even get those numbers, because your posts lately is really starting to be fanboyish.

BluRay faq.

1x DVD speed = 11.08mbps, and the 360 uses a 12x DVD drive. 12x 11.08 = 132.96mbps.

1x BluRay = 36.0mbps. IGN is reporting that they expect the PS3's BluRay drive to be 1x, but other sources have guessed 2x. The fact is, as BluRay is still in its infancy and the PS3 is one of the first announced devices to use BluRay technology, you're simply not going to see anything faster than 2x.

If the PS3 uses a 1x player, then the Xbox 360 would be able to load to its cache 3.7 times faster. If they manage to get a 2x in there, that would certainly help, but the 360 would still be filling up it's cache nearly twice as fast.

Those numbers, by the way, are megabits per second, not megabytes. 1 byte = 8 bits, and 1 megabyte = 8 megabits.

So, a 1x BluRay would read at 4.5 megabytes per second, and 2x would be 9.

And a 12x DVD would be 16.62.

Let's assume a level caches 256mb (only to the RAM... we'll assume, since the PS3 won't ship with a hard drive, that a multiplatform game like RE4 won't cache on the 360's hard drive). You're looking at a load time of almost 57 seconds if the PS3 uses a 1x BluRay drive. A 2x drive cuts that to a more bearable 28 and a half seconds. On the Xbox 360, it'd be just a little over 15 seconds.

Now, when I was looking at games like Ninja Gaiden, DoA Ultimate, or Doom III, I was thinking that I was pretty happen with graphics where they were at, and remarked to a friend that I'd prefer shorter load times as a next-gen improvement. The Xbox 360 might not be an improvement (bigger and more detailed levels and more room to work with counterbalance gains in read rate), but the PS3's almost looking like a step backward in that department. And for what? More space on a single disc than most developers will know what to do with. If that's the trade off, I'd rather have the occasional two-disc game. It didn't bother me much on the PSone, or more recently, the Gamecube.

I'm not intentionally trying to sound fanboyish. I'll be the first to criticize Microsoft's gross mishandling of the 360's launch, and have even suggested elsewhere that certain folks (who were promoted, of all things) should have been fired for it. But at the end of the day, I'll admit, I'm pretty happy with the Xbox 360 for a number of reasons, and skeptical of the PS3 for a number of other reasons.

If it makes you feel any better, I am planning on getting a PS3 (and a Revolution for that matter), and have already been looking at home theater arrangements that will accomodate them.

Edited December 21, 2005 by mikeszekely

[Hikuro]

I was just thinking, do you get gamer points for playing the regular Xbox games like Halo or Halo 2 for example, seeing its the only Xbox games I own besides 360 ones.

[myk]

I'm not intentionally trying to sound fanboyish.  I'll be the first to criticize Microsoft's gross mishandling of the 360's launch....

354024[/snapback]

I don't recall you as ever being fanboyish-lol...Even if you were though, isn't this a '360 dedicated thread?

Also, is DOA still supposed to show up on the 23rd? They'll probably just push it off until the following year as they did with 'Gaiden...

Edited December 21, 2005 by myk

[F360°]

I'm not stupid, thanks.  I know what I'm talking about.

no one is saying you're stupid,, just a bit confuse, even the smartest person will get confuse sometimes.

BluRay faq.

1x DVD speed = 11.08mbps, and the 360 uses a 12x DVD drive.  12x 11.08 = 132.96mbps.

1x BluRay = 36.0Mbps.  IGN is reporting that they expect the PS3's BluRay drive to be 1x, but other sources have guessed 2x.  The fact is, as BluRay is still in its infancy and the PS3 is one of the first announced devices to use BluRay technology, you're simply not going to see anything faster than 2x.

If the PS3 uses a 1x player, then the Xbox 360 would be able to load to its cache 3.7 times faster.  If they manage to get a 2x in there, that would certainly help, but the 360 would still be filling up it's cache nearly twice as fast.

So, a 1x BluRay would read at 4.5 megabytes per second, and 2x would be 9.

And a 12x DVD would be 16.62.

Thanks for the Blu-ray link as I'm kinda out of date on them.

Sure enough 1x BluRay = 36.0mbps but BD-ROM movies will require a minimum transfer rate speed of 54Mbps , that means 1.5x is the minimum needed for any Blu-ray disc player/drive. So for sure Sony PS3 will not be using a 1x drive.

But no one is going to do 1.5x they'll just push to 2x, which is 72Mbps. As of May 2005 they already made some working 2x blu-ray Burners. 1 year is a long time for this rapidly improving technology, I'm not joking they are improvement at lighting speed. I will not be surprise to see a working 8x Blu-ray drive in next May and manufactoring 4x drives just couple of months before.

Let's assume a level caches 256mb (only to the RAM... we'll assume, since the PS3 won't ship with a hard drive, that a multiplatform game like RE4 won't cache on the 360's hard drive).  You're looking at a load time of almost 57 seconds if the PS3 uses a 1x BluRay drive.  A 2x drive cuts that to a more bearable 28 and a half seconds.  On the Xbox 360, it'd be just a little over 15 seconds.

yes, at 1 x blu-ray will be pretty slow, but it's not going to happen.. it's will not be logical to have a 1x drive when the minimum is 1.5x for viewing video. The 2x speed is the logical minimum for a blu-ray drive. At that speed with your example it's 28 sec for Blu-ray and 15 for DVD which is at most 2 times longer and not 4 times longer in your previous theory. which is why I disagree on.

Now, when I was looking at games like Ninja Gaiden, DoA Ultimate, or Doom III, I was thinking that I was pretty happen with graphics where they were at, and remarked to a friend that I'd prefer shorter load times as a next-gen improvement.  The Xbox 360 might not be an improvement (bigger and more detailed levels and more room to work with counterbalance gains in read rate), but the PS3's almost looking like a step backward in that department.  And for what?  More space on a single disc than most developers will know what to do with.  If that's the trade off, I'd rather have the occasional two-disc game.  It didn't bother me much on the PSone, or more recently, the Gamecube.

what you are doing is judging too quickly on a product that's not even out yet,, it's wrong to assume the PS3 will be using a 1x blu-ray drive. Logically it will at least 2x. And given the time that they still have they still have a chance to give it a faster drive,, If it's 3x it will be really close and at 4x it will be faster than the current drive on the Xbox360. You also have to add in the fact that it will support Blu-ray media and DVD media. This is only the drive we are talking about and nothing else.

I'm not intentionally trying to sound fanboyish.  I'll be the first to criticize Microsoft's gross mishandling of the 360's launch, and have even suggested elsewhere that certain folks (who were promoted, of all things) should have been fired for it.  But at the end of the day, I'll admit, I'm pretty happy with the Xbox 360 for a number of reasons, and skeptical of the PS3 for a number of other reasons.

If it makes you feel any better, I am planning on getting a PS3 (and a Revolution for that matter), and have already been looking at home theater arrangements that will accomodate them.

I'm glad you are happy with your xbox360 and you should be ,it's the Hottest Console/thing this Christmas. I would of got one to if I was still into Console gaming. Buying Models ,Figures, and other personal things have really cut into my gaming budget. I still play my Dreamcast from time to time.

But what got me on this thread was mainly the 4 times slower thingie which really stands out as impossible and illogically for me. But I guess we'll see.

Edited December 21, 2005 by F360°

[Black Valkyrie]

You guys should be happy since you have it.

[mikeszekely]

yes, at 1 x blu-ray will be pretty slow, but it's not going to happen.. it's will not be logical to have a 1x drive when the minimum is 1.5x for viewing video. The 2x speed is the logical minimum for a blu-ray drive.

And perhaps the 1.5x minimum for video is one of the reasons why they're having so much trouble getting BluRay (and for all I know, HD-DVD) launched? Perhaps, in an effort to get the PS3 out on time, Sony will use a 1x BD-ROM for software an forego playback of BluRay movies. Until definate specs are released and Sony solidifies their plans, a 1x BD-ROM is still a possibility, and a more likely one than a 3x or a 4x, and my math still stands. I'll concede, though, that Sony will probaby go with a 2x.

The drive speeds for other mediums border on irrelevant. To maintain stability, CD-ROM speed will be limited to the PSone's max for PSone games and the PS2's max for PS2 games, as well as the PS2's DVD-ROM speed for PS2 games. With Sony pushing BluRay like it's some kind of wonder-tech and their open criticism of Microsoft's decision to stick wtih DVD-ROM for the Xbox 360, new PS3 software on DVD seems highly unlikely.

Also, is DOA still supposed to show up on the 23rd? They'll probably just push it off until the following year as they did with 'Gaiden...

Last I checked, it was pushed to the 29th...

Edited December 21, 2005 by mikeszekely

[Hikuro]

I already mentioned it got pushed back too ;_;........my christmas will be a bit dull without it.

[myk]

Yeah I know, but I asked Mike to confirm that latest postponement and at one point the 23rd was the estimated time of release. I'm just gonna' forget about it for now, as it wouldn't make sense for them to release the game after Christmas, and with only 2 or 3 days left in the month...

[Mr March]

DVD won't be replaced anytime soon. Its too widely adopted at this point, people are not yet ready to switch over their entire collection when they just did so in the past 5 years.

353569[/snapback]

I would very much agree. Backwards compatibility with DVD will have to be a mandatory feature of all next generation formats if they want people to buy into new technology this quickly.

[mikeszekely]

DVD won't be replaced anytime soon. Its too widely adopted at this point, people are not yet ready to switch over their entire collection when they just did so in the past 5 years.

353569[/snapback]

I would very much agree. Backwards compatibility with DVD will have to be a mandatory feature of all next generation formats if they want people to buy into new technology this quickly.

354277[/snapback]

I'm half and half. Since I bought an HDTV, the idea of having movies in HD to watch sound good to me. On the flip side, though, I just spend the last five years collecting movies on DVD, and I'm not about to set it all curbside and start over just to have a collection of HD movies.

Yeah I know, but I asked Mike to confirm that latest postponement and at one point the 23rd was the estimated time of release. I'm just gonna' forget about it for now, as it wouldn't make sense for them to release the game after Christmas, and with only 2 or 3 days left in the month...

I'm gonna say that I feel pretty good about this date, though. The game's been done; they've just been tweaking the online aspects. I think this last delay is just to set the American release to coincide with the Japanese release, instead of having them a week apart.

[Mr March]

I'm half and half.  Since I bought an HDTV, the idea of having movies in HD to watch sound good to me.  On the flip side, though, I just spend the last five years collecting movies on DVD, and I'm not about to set it all curbside and start over just to have a collection of HD movies.

I'd love nothing more than a better format. As much as I am an advocate for digital formats and true aspect ratio film releases, DVD is still not the ultimate format for film. Block noise, layer transition, and a few other flaws with DVD prevent my complete satisfaction. I won't truly be happy until an utterly flawless digital version of each film I love is available, and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is a good step in the right direction.

Hopefully, we can soon do away with physical discs. We should simply buy films as downloads or retail files that you can buy and go to the store to download into your own portable harddrive. It would be the ultimate space saver and is more enviromentally sound.

[Gaijin]

I'm half and half.  Since I bought an HDTV, the idea of having movies in HD to watch sound good to me.  On the flip side, though, I just spend the last five years collecting movies on DVD, and I'm not about to set it all curbside and start over just to have a collection of HD movies.

No need to "start all over". A Blu Ray or HD DVD player wil play regular DVD's and newer upcoming films you can purchase in HD. I'd buy certain faves that I just must have in High Def, but even I too, won't abandon all my DVD's (just the ones that look like crap). Once HD Discs start appearing though, I won't buy a SD DVD version if I can get it in high def.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Gaijin

[Graham]

No plans to buy an Xbox 360 or other next-gen console at this point in time.

When and if I do decide to get one, backwards compatibility with older games and movie DVDs is a must.

Personally, I've no interest in seeing DVDs replaced by a new type of disc. Like many people, I've built up a fairly impressive DVD collection over the past few years and do not want to have to replace it. I'm happy with my DVDs.

Graham the Luddite

[Black Valkyrie]

Same here.

[myk]

The only reason to have it now is just for the sake of having it. I don't see anything in the '360 game lineup for the next.......year (?) that I would consider a "must have."

-I'm still loving it though!

Edited December 22, 2005 by myk

[JsARCLIGHT]

I had to return something to Beast Buy tonight on the way home and noticed that they have a sign up on their return counter saying something to the effect of "All Xbox 360 returns, open or otherwise (systems, hardware, games, etc), are accepted". What is the deal with that? Why are they waiving the open item return clause for the Xbox 360?

Edited December 23, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[mikeszekely]

I had to return something to Beast Buy tonight on the way home and noticed that they have a sign up on their return counter saying something to the effect of "All Xbox 360 returns, open or otherwise (systems, hardware, games, etc), are accepted". What is the deal with that? Why are they waiving the open item return clause for the Xbox 360?

354531[/snapback]

If I had to make a guess? Because normally, Best Buy sells "open box" items cheaper, but they figure they can easily sell an Xbox 360 without any box at all at full price.

[myk]

Well, Worst Buy is facing alot of heat since the launch: forcing people to buy those ridiculous bundles, not having nearly enough systems to go around and having to deal with the small percentage of defective units. Granted, the last two reasons have nothing to do with Worst Buy, but they're just trying to save face at this point as the clueless populace is blaming them for the problems.

[Sundown]

Hopefully, we can soon do away with physical discs.  We should simply buy films as downloads or retail files that you can buy and go to the store to download into your own portable harddrive.  It would be the ultimate space saver and is more enviromentally sound.

354301[/snapback]

That would actually be pretty brilliant-- going to the store to zap the movie onto a robust portable drive then bringing it back home. We wouldn't even have to wait for a faster internet. My only worry would be hard drive crashes-- I suppose retailers can keep track of what you've already purchased and let you download those titles again, but that'd be time consuming and an enormous hassle. There's just something comforting about having a physical copy of the movie available to you if you need it.

[Apollo Leader]

Finally, DOA4 ships today!!! Can't wait to get my copy.

[Hikuro]

yep me too. I'm gonna wake up late, shower, have some lunch, go to bestbuys, spend my 25 dollar gift card on some PSP game, then go to gamestop and pick up my reserved copy. Tomorrow is gonna be nice.

[Hikuro]

That's odd, I never got a call from gamestop to notify me that my copy of DOA4 would be here.....I'll give them a call in the afternoon so I don't waste a trip. Wouldn't really wanna go over the weekend though...it'll be just simply put, hell.

[myk]

Yeah...Thanks Games-Boutique, for not calling me either. Fortunately, the free calendar that I was salivating for with the preorder contains nothing but HEADSHOTS of the characters, so I'm just going over to the local Target and picking up a copy there.

[Hikuro]

Yeah the guy at GS gave me the poster for preordering the game but told me "Sorry, they're head shots" I swear he could of cried right then and there.

But damn I didn't realize Tecmo made this game so difficult for people who really don't play Fighting games at all : / likemyself, this is a hard game.

[myk]

I had heard that increased difficulty was one of the features of this DOA, to get rid of all the button masher champions. For example, my girl Hitomi has 81 attacks in her moves list-how the hell is someone supposed to learn those techniques and their applications, not to mention the rest of the DOA roster? I long for the days of SK SK SP Super-Hadoken. I must say that the game is beautiful though...

What Tecmo did with that calendar was inexcusable. At the very least, they could have offered an "M" rated version online, or something.

Asides from the PS3 and the like, I will never pre-order anything again...

Edited January 1, 2006 by myk

[myk]

OoooooK....I guess I'd have to say that Hitomi's ending was cute, if not totally wierd. Apparently, off the wall storylines and endings are also another feature in this DOA.

-Considering the relatively steep learning curve, number of moves available per character and the increased difficulty, I find myself actually mashing buttons myself...

[CoryHolmes]

Considering the relatively steep learning curve, number of moves available per character and the increased difficulty, I find myself actually mashing buttons myself...

356560[/snapback]

Button-mashing only really works against the computer and only on certain difficulty levels. When you actually go up against a seasoned player who knows what to do and when to do it, that's when you'll really find out how bad mashing can be.