Keith

I enjoyed it immensly, enjoy both the TV & movie ending (as they're the same freakin' thing), and now after spending a year watching 260 episodes of Gundam (Z, ZZ, V, 0080, W, Seed), see a lot of similarities there.

Look whos talking If there were only a smilie symbolizing a hand job. Dude, I'm sorry, but what the hell is with that constant stick up your ass? I've done nothing to you, have no beef against you, and yet you're constantly a dick. Drop it.

Fanservice ranges anywhere from a little bit (or lot) of cleavage & bending over, to full on nudity (see Mahoromatic for a good sense of "fanservice.").

Kawamori has officially stated that he hasn't watched Macross II, doesn't get more blunt than that.

It makes perfect sense. The Sentinels was the pivotal travesty of Robotech showing just what a huge mistake the whole thing was. I repeat: -Buckethead Britai -Male-patter baldness Exedor -Flat-chested "That Girl" Misa -Shemale Milia -One-eyed Hikaru -Bad DYRL style knock-off flight suits -Robot cats made out of crackers -Santa Clause -Tribbles -The insane notion that a Legioss is superior to a VF-1 -Giant talking space slugs -etc, etc, etc It would go perfect with my copy of Space Gundam V!

Make up your mind which side of your hyprocracy you're going to stand on. Are you going to argue that lack of evidence isn't evidence in itself (and as such shut the hell up about trying to say there's a culture park in City 7 when there clearly is not, btw, doesn't matter what building Basara is standing on, it's just there),. Or are you going to argue that even if something isn't said to be there, it still can be.

Considering Zero isn't complete yet, and the fact that it's events have been sealed for 50 years, it's easy to assume that perhaps the VF-0 was also a portion of information that was sealed away, leaving the "official books" to refer to the VF-1 as the first variable fighter. City 7 is never shown to have multi-layers, just buildings which extend upwards of the roof. Its City is several times that of the one contained in the Macross, leaving no need for such multi-layering to fit inside the legs of a ship. If you've no proof, no hinting, or any remote implication of such things being there, then you've no grounds to say they are. I've seen Macross 7 over a dozen times, and never once was there a city under the city. I'm not being one dimensional, Im just paying attention to the continuity. Since when was the Eifel tower in Italy? The point is that the tower's (in real life) surve as radio/TV broadcasat towers, and coudl easily serve the same purpose in Macross 7. Still waiting.....! The lack of evidence is indeed evidence. Fact is, they aren't there, they're not hinted at being there, they're not referenced even remotely, and there is no written material placing them there. If you want to fanfic speculate, go right on ahead, but as far as the production is concerned, they're not there.

The fact that such things (colonization fleets, reaction weapons, etc), are never even remotely mentioned in Macross II prove that they're not there. You'll note they also say that magical flying lepricans are really controling the government in Macross II, but that doesn't mean they are. Don't be stupid. As for City 7, you want a map, watching the freakn' M7 intro, you get a whole city view. And just where the hell would a culture park be hidden? Factory Ship? The Einstein perhaps? As for the eiffel tower, I'd wager it's more akin to a recreation of Tokyo Tower, and irregardless, could easily serve as a television transmission tower. Besides which, there's a huge difference between that and the freakin' great wall of China, or leaning tower of Piza. Macross II only shares one thing in common with Roman Holiday, and that's the stupid gag they ripped off. Unless you have a directors cut of RH with a Marduk invasion that almost exactly mimics the Zentradi in DYRL.

There were actually a few love triangles in 7. -Basara, Sivil, & Gigil -Mylene's love for both Basara & Gamlin -Basara, Emilia's right breast, & Emilia's left breast -Ray, Akiko, & Stephen -Kinryu, Miho, & Sally -Max, Milia, & their careers -Physica, his cheating whore wife, & his cheating whore wife's new husband etc.

Better idea yet, how about a Macross World special edition set of TV DVD covers. I'm sure someone here has to have the R2 set, it'd just be a matter of getting them scanned, & going down to kinko's to get them on good paperstock. $10 + shipping wouldn't be out of the question. Hell, after Zeta comes out, I wouldn't mind forking out $40 for a nicely done Paul whatshisname metal box for Macross, maybe again a special edition set we could have done, perhaps get a bulk discount from him. We could have votes for what art is to be used, and the whole shebang.

Oh drop it already. Minmay was 15 during her shower scene in Macross TV & Macross DYRL, and you saw a hell of a lot more there than you ever see of Mylene at any point in M7.

Macross 7 had no culture parks, there was a recreation ship, that's not a freakin' culture park! There will be no more discussion of a culture park in Macross 7, because it simply "was not there." What was said was that the colony ships are equiped with City's, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc. As for the slum, that was a last minute addition to City 7, not a stock component, just somewhere out of the way for Ray to train Basara. It seems more to me like someone didn't read the text they were quoting, or hasn't seen the su btitled version of Macross II, otherwise you'd know that song wasn't originally in english for the second half, it was just a really bad idea on U.S. Renditions part while dubbing, that entirely trashed "that song." Never did I say I didn't like Macross II's music, I just don't like what happened to that song in the dub. Just like I don't like what Manga did to Voices in the Macross Plus dub. Lastly, the VF-1/VF-0 thing has been explained sufficiently well. The prototype testing still went as previously stated, only now we have a small production run of VF-0's with conventional turbine engines hypertuned to increase their performance, while the nuclear turbine engines are having the bugs worked out before the full production run of the VF-1. The Anti-U.N. pushing out their SV-51 is the source of necessity for the VF-0.

I doubt they'll give them that choice... Only the people that realize that they're in the Matrix, the rest are just batteries and food for future batteries. The whole point was that with the war over, they "would" then give them the choice irregardless.

Those who wish to waste time trying to rationalize Macross II are more than welcome too. I've made my devistating attacks showing why it just doesn't work, do with them what you will. Those of us who know there's no way to rationalize it are satisified with those arguments. And irregardless of it being 80 years, there's no sense to the change in the U.S. Spacy insignia, none whatsoever. We're not talking about large star vehicle markings, we're talking about a base military recognition symbol.

Honestly, I thought he said "of course we'll let them go," but I'm not about ot go pay to see it again, so wait 'til it comes out on DVD. But then they would have to give them a choice whether to stay or go too, and wait until they all become of age, etc.

Code = souls, souls = code.

Mylene didn't choose either, she just decided that she missed Basara, so she chased after him.

So??? Neither are the Protodevlin or the Zolans. Protodevilin are explained as being the source of the Supervision Army (a present that was pre-existing in Macross continuity), the Zolans explained as being another leftover Protoculture tampered race. What's the difference between them & the Marduk? They have fully explained backgrounds rooted in compatable Macross continuity. The Marduk do not. Your point? See above. The Macross in DYRL was a Meltran ship. In Macross TV a Supervision Army ship (though arguably could also be a refitted by the SA Meltran ship). There's absolutely no room in either version of events to be a mythical magical ship called "Aluse." Nor did its pre-crash form resemble the Zeppelin in Ishtar's visions of the Aluse. The 2SS is superior to the VF-4 looks, better in battloid mode, and is probably cheaper. And the UN Spacy of the MII universe hadn't been upgradeing thier mecha for years, as they were relying on the Minmay attack. They're what M7 will be in a 40 years. The VF-2SS is in no way superior to what we've seen of the VF-4, it's just a pointier re-draw of the VF-1. The implication of "VF-2" also denoting lack of progression past VF-3, ignoring the existence of the VF-4 in FB 2012 (also existing before Macross II). So??? the story was about what happened on earth. Not on some colony mission. Except that long distance colony missions would be more likely to come across & warn about any "Marduk" threat, be called in for re-inforcements while Earth was under seige, etc. Again So??? see above So? It completely contradicts the long distance colonization plan set forth at the end of SDF-M TV, & DYRL. Like the SDF-1 and the ARMDs never changed in the official Macross Universe? What is an ARMD carrier? IT'S A CARRIER! It's not a piece of the Macross Cannon!! How much sense does it make to stow Valkyries in a particle cannon? And no, they didn't "change" the Macross was rebuilt, that rebuild being what the Macross was in DYRL, and shown in the background in FB 2012. The Macross of Macross II uses the TV coloring scheme, a close design in appearance to the 2012 refit/DYRL design, but an entirely contradictiary internal system. So? Macross Uniforms change with every new animation. Does that meen things can't change after 80 years??? Uniforms change, the insignia however has not, not even slightly. And there are in the 2040's Macross Universe? I don't remember seeing any. I believe they were all used in the Megaroad fleets or retired by then. And MII takes place 40 years after M7 in any universe which meens they're all in retired. Retired? Thosse ships are built for hundreds of thousands of years of service, they'd hardly "retire" in a mere 40 years. And yes, they were mostly sent out with the Megaroad fleets, but given that there's no sign of any long distance colonization plan in Macross II (hell, where was the factory satellite!), that isn't a viable excuse. So??? "No mention of Protoculture." Ever hear of replicas? And I doubt a VF could go around the world. Especially after all the combat manuevers it went threw before getting captured and then crashing on earth. You doubt a Valkyrie can go around the world? You mean despite the fact that they have nearly unlimited fuel while in an atmosphere due to the fusion engines? And there was absolutely nothing stating those to be replica's, nor any real explanation for them whatsoever. Besides which, who would be left to remember how to make them all in such detail? So? Most of earths materials got blasted so why not use what's there? No they didn't, most of the pre-existing structures were "blasted," but that doesn't mean there weren't any building materials. Not to mention the fact that the factory satellite was there to help process, as well as the moon base. Society has built itself up much faster in real time than it has in Macross II's feeble 80 year attempt. -Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity. So? So? So borrowing things that were exclusive to the TV continuity contradicts the theory that it's based off movie continuity. There were no downed Zentradi ships in DYRL, because they toasted the Earth during their initial attack. There was no Grand Cannon to take out a chunk of Bodolza's fleet & ground some on Earth. What do you need need a map for??? It's 70 years after SWI it's probably en demoed for something else. Why demo a fully functional "city," especially if building materials are so scarce, that Zentradi ships that aren't even supposed to be on the ground have been used for buildings? Yet again, it doesn't add up. Didn't the UN rebuild the SDF-1 to have it fire while still on the island before the ships first launching?? Wasn't alarge poertion of the island destroyed during that blast? And with the UN's control of the media in MII ofcourse they'd say it was just a random energy blast when it's really just the same booby trap signaling another enemy has defolded near earth. And who rebuilds a ship to let it rust in a lake?? In TV continuity yes, this however doesn't happen in DYRL coninuity, for it is no longer a Supervision Army ship, with a Supervision Army boobytrap. As such, it doesn't take out part of the island (see DYRL Game intro). And let's even entertain that the Macross II would follow that part of the TV continuity, it would also have to follow the fact that the boobytrap was disabled (i.e. the Supervision Army OS) because it caused serious conflicts within all of the ships systems, creating such mishaps as the gravity system tearing away from the ship, a massive mis-fold, the fold engines to fold away from the ship, a huge island to fold along with the ship, and many other such system errors. Nothing so simple as a light "blast." They also shouldn't need such a system with a fleet & earth defense sat's tuned to detecting ship defolds (did you notice the big radar detection opps center in II?). And the Macross has never "rusted" in the lake. It's made out of freakin' hyper carbon. I alway's believed it was a sequal to both movie and tv universes. And at the time they were separate universes. And given the dramatic differences between the two, it's impossible to make a solitary sequel under those conditions. That one is a good question. Giant life support?? CPR?? And to do it without the tentacles fighting off any intruders? The same goes for prequals. They can't contridict what comes after. M0 rewrites Macross history Macross Zero isn't finished yet, and as of yet, it hasn't re-written anything. Just filled in gaps we didn't know were there. As for Orguss and Orguss 02. Yes orguss 2 was a poor sequal but the ending of Oguss does leave room for a combined world. The whole point or Orguss was that many different possible earths were combined into one. The end of Orguss showed many possible futures. Not a single one. Meening that all the different possibilities had returned to thier own separate worlds instead of being cramed into a single one. There could still be a combined world as it's also a possible earth. No, Orguss's ending left room for no such thing. The specific effect of the phenomen Kei caused, cauased a localized corruption in the dimensional continuem (the specific crossed dimenisons are even shown in an episode, when they finally reach the Eiman homeground), that only entangled a few specific dimensions. Once Kei & Orsen took themselves out, they both prevented the ignition of the Dimensional bomb, and any future crossing of the worlds. There were no other potential realities, there were no other Kei's or Orsen's running around, there was no happy ending for them, just dreams of what would never be as they died. This is why we only see two Tokoiten (Kei & Orsen) running around during the course of the series, no multiples of alternate realities. As such this is why there's no possible way for Orguss 02 to occur. That and the fact that not even the robots of Mu had the technology shown by those huge robots that were dug up. There were also no Eiman magical powers (Kei sure as hell didn't possess them either). BTW, did you notice that one of the sketches in the Macross II R1 DVD is the same design used for the final bad guy in Orguss 02? Same production team using leftovers? Or mistake by Manga? As for the stories of MII and M7. I liked both with the exceptions of Basara and guitar flight sticks. Guitar flight sticks are just standard flight control's with a guitar in place of twin control sticks. Not very hard to understand. But try explaining the lack of reaction weapons in Macross II! Sure it does. We see the SDF with the DYRL style arms/ships, so I take that as enough evidence to say that 'Plus relates to DYRL more. Also, Isamu's flight suit screams DYRL.... Until you realize that DYRL flight suits actually represent 2030 era U.N. Spacy fight suits, the ones in Macross Plus being at the tail end in that design phase.

Why don't you get off your high horse and learn to discuss things like a rational person like the rest of us? Nobody else in this thread is angry at each other, so why are you getting so worked up? Seriously. Its one thing to disagree, we all do on different things but you need to check yourself and how you respond to people. You do this far to often. Do what, ask that you actually watch a bit of the subject you're discussiong? Hardly!

Neo will come back as Neo, there's been no firm proof of actual "re-incarnation," just repetitious occurances. Neo being "the one," doesn't mean he's the same "one" that made the same mistake 5 times in a row. For that to happen, not only would he have to return to the source, but the machines would have to intentionally implant a soul into a human child, causing the conflict intentionally. The Architect implied that the random occurance happened despite attempts to prevent it. And Neo was indeed alive at the end.

Oihan, you are the last person that should be calling "anyone" biased! And Macross II did indeed contradict everything which came before it. Quick rundown: -Marduk: Nowhere in Macross TV or DYRL -Religion of the Aluse (see above) -Valkyrie progression which still hasn't reached the VF-4 (despite the VF-4 already existing in both TV & Movie continuity) -No long distance colonization programs, or hint of them -No leaving Earth & moon space whatsoever apparently -Inconsistent Macross ship design with "anything" which came before or after it. -U.N. Spacy isnignia is entirley different -No Zentradi ships in Earth's fleet, aside from hulks pieces together to make Macross Cannon ships. -No mention of Protoculture -Just where did that culture park come from? All of those monuments spontaniosuly survived the Zentradi bombardment? They weren't there in the TV series or DYRL, and we specifically saw that Hikaru & Misa toured the globe, just how did the freakin' great wall of China survive. How the hell did they move it? -In 80 years they couldn't rebuild city's using anything more than downed Zentradi ships??? -Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity. -Where was the city around the Macross? Where was the conert hall? -Just what kind of half assed worksmanship rebuilds the Macross, addingi cannon sections in residential (legs) & carrier (ARMD carrier) area's, but makes it so that the freakin' thing doesn't even work! Seriously, ranodm energy bursts (super not safe!), & a cannon that destroys itself after one firing. Come on! -If the random energy bursts were supposed to signify approaching Zentradi (ala "boobytrap), that's also not DYRL continuty, as that's specifically TV continuity. -Just how did Ingus manage to rip whatever giant Zentradi head was attached to the mobile fortress, and implant himself there without killing the sihp? I can go on & on, but I think you get my drift. And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before. It's what seperates the U.C. Gundam (0079 - Victory), from AU stuff

I think you guys are taking that whole "Smith is Neo's equal but opposite" thing too seriously. If he truly was, then he'd be a force fighting "for" the machines. I think it was just said to quanitfy Smith's new existence. The machines sure as hell didn't make him, it just so happened to be that coincidentally, a strong force of good coming into existence triggered a strong force for bad. It was hardly the system that made Smith. Smith's denial of being defeated made Smith.

Dude, watch the freakin' thing & pay attention. And watch it subtitled too, I'm tired of this crap where you guys can't pay attention to simple plot elements, and challenge me at the same time! As for the Supervison Army, make up your mind there as well. If you're going to base your view on the theory that II was a sequel to DYRL, then there is no Supervision Army. Otherwise, they didn't pay enough attention to the continuity to even grasp the concept of the Supervision Army, let alone imply that the Marduk were supposed to be them. If they had, then they would have named them "Supervision Army," and not thrown in any of that "Aluse" B.S.

Macross II & Orguss 02 are both equally low in my opinion. Both completely ignored what came before, wrote up their own histories which don't fit, and end terribly. For those unfamiliar with the Orguss TV series, let me tell you this simply. O02 implies that at the end of the TV series, a second dimensional bomb was set off to correct the dimensional crossovers, and because of that, there was still a world with leftover crossover elements. This does not happen in Orguss. What happeend was the two characters which were pushed into the future when the dimensional bomb went off (at their cause), traveled back in time to prevent the initial explosion from ever happeneing to begin with (in an excellent climactic end), that very fact in itself negates Orguss 02 from ever being able to exist. As for Macross 7 & Macross II, stop being an ass. Macross 7 is superiro to II in every way. Story, animation, mecha, characters, every freakin' way. And like I said, Macross II's animation was far from "all that," especially when you get to the last 2 episodes where the budget was almost enitrely plled out. While Macross 7 may have repeating animation, character & mecha are always consistently high quality.

The Smith's predictions in the final battle had nothing to do with anything that happened prior, it had to do with have the Oracle's insight into the future (which was a literal psychic power.....hey, machiens have souls here, they can have psychic powers too!). This is assumedly the first time that the conflict has ever gone so far. As for Neo dying at the end, I still say he was alive. After taking out Smith(s), they show him still able to see machine souls (and I say they're souls because despite also seeing conduits & such, just what passes through, energy? or programs . I believe they're taking Neo away to become like Ong in Megazone 23 Prt III, a controlled part of the machine that will have to face off against a new hero in a future installment. I don't however believe in that whole returning to the source crap. Humans can't return to the source, because they didn't originate there (only machines & A.I.'s do). Perhaps that was the way of the machines to quanitfy what happened, but it only stands to reason that every so often a human would be able to "think outside the box," and realize their own control over the Matrix. Neo wasn't a re-incarnation of any of the "one's" that lived before, just a repeat of the same anomoly. In order to be a return of that same code from the source, the machines would have to implant a soul into an individual on purpose, also making Neo an A.I. like Smith. That's just too convoluted. On the same note, just because Smith was as powerful as Neo, he wasn't a literal opposite force requiring Neo to die to take out, given the nature of the havoc he wreaked, and the fact that the machines seemed to have even less power over him than they did Neo, it stands to reason that he was a true anomoly of the system (not just a hyper aware human like Neo), which evovled into a virus choosing to destroy everything. The problem Smith posed was a much more dangerous one than Neo ever could be, and its highly unlikely the machines would let that occur repeatedly. As for what happens after, considering the large degree that the machines seem to hate humans (wouldn't it have been cool if Bender turned out to be the main A.I.?, heh), it's doubtful they'd be ready to work together to save the environement, or work together period. Humans would be just as banned from the machine city as they were before. And I saw nothing about letting people who chose to, to remain in the Matrix. All they said was "everyone would be released," which means no humans would be attched to the Matrix. Which means there'd be a shitload of angry people ripped out of a comfy existence, & forced into a battle with what's left of nature for survival. Considering the machines gave the people of Zion what little they had to survive on, would they also be kind enough to give them resources to sustain the larger number of people? Or would they just dump their atrophied asses there & say "you wanted it, you deal with it." It would be a prime time however to show them documentation on "The Last Rennisaunce," just so people are aware that they're the ones who made the mistake to begin with. All things ocnsidered, all I expect from the W's is a rehash of Megazone 23 Prt III. Humans living in a somewhat distant future, in a penned off industrial city, perhaps underground with a false sky, perhaps build above the clouds, who knows. They will realize that they are still to some degree under machine rule, be it only to make sure they stay penned up in their "eden" like city. A final "one" will arise, he'll face off against the machines with the help of the Oracle, and be confrunted with a very old Neo being kept alive by the machines as a defense mechanism.