Keith

Why don't you get off your high horse and learn to discuss things like a rational person like the rest of us? Nobody else in this thread is angry at each other, so why are you getting so worked up? Seriously. Its one thing to disagree, we all do on different things but you need to check yourself and how you respond to people. You do this far to often. Do what, ask that you actually watch a bit of the subject you're discussiong? Hardly!

Neo will come back as Neo, there's been no firm proof of actual "re-incarnation," just repetitious occurances. Neo being "the one," doesn't mean he's the same "one" that made the same mistake 5 times in a row. For that to happen, not only would he have to return to the source, but the machines would have to intentionally implant a soul into a human child, causing the conflict intentionally. The Architect implied that the random occurance happened despite attempts to prevent it. And Neo was indeed alive at the end.

Oihan, you are the last person that should be calling "anyone" biased! And Macross II did indeed contradict everything which came before it. Quick rundown: -Marduk: Nowhere in Macross TV or DYRL -Religion of the Aluse (see above) -Valkyrie progression which still hasn't reached the VF-4 (despite the VF-4 already existing in both TV & Movie continuity) -No long distance colonization programs, or hint of them -No leaving Earth & moon space whatsoever apparently -Inconsistent Macross ship design with "anything" which came before or after it. -U.N. Spacy isnignia is entirley different -No Zentradi ships in Earth's fleet, aside from hulks pieces together to make Macross Cannon ships. -No mention of Protoculture -Just where did that culture park come from? All of those monuments spontaniosuly survived the Zentradi bombardment? They weren't there in the TV series or DYRL, and we specifically saw that Hikaru & Misa toured the globe, just how did the freakin' great wall of China survive. How the hell did they move it? -In 80 years they couldn't rebuild city's using anything more than downed Zentradi ships??? -Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity. -Where was the city around the Macross? Where was the conert hall? -Just what kind of half assed worksmanship rebuilds the Macross, addingi cannon sections in residential (legs) & carrier (ARMD carrier) area's, but makes it so that the freakin' thing doesn't even work! Seriously, ranodm energy bursts (super not safe!), & a cannon that destroys itself after one firing. Come on! -If the random energy bursts were supposed to signify approaching Zentradi (ala "boobytrap), that's also not DYRL continuty, as that's specifically TV continuity. -Just how did Ingus manage to rip whatever giant Zentradi head was attached to the mobile fortress, and implant himself there without killing the sihp? I can go on & on, but I think you get my drift. And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before. It's what seperates the U.C. Gundam (0079 - Victory), from AU stuff

I think you guys are taking that whole "Smith is Neo's equal but opposite" thing too seriously. If he truly was, then he'd be a force fighting "for" the machines. I think it was just said to quanitfy Smith's new existence. The machines sure as hell didn't make him, it just so happened to be that coincidentally, a strong force of good coming into existence triggered a strong force for bad. It was hardly the system that made Smith. Smith's denial of being defeated made Smith.

Dude, watch the freakin' thing & pay attention. And watch it subtitled too, I'm tired of this crap where you guys can't pay attention to simple plot elements, and challenge me at the same time! As for the Supervison Army, make up your mind there as well. If you're going to base your view on the theory that II was a sequel to DYRL, then there is no Supervision Army. Otherwise, they didn't pay enough attention to the continuity to even grasp the concept of the Supervision Army, let alone imply that the Marduk were supposed to be them. If they had, then they would have named them "Supervision Army," and not thrown in any of that "Aluse" B.S.

Macross II & Orguss 02 are both equally low in my opinion. Both completely ignored what came before, wrote up their own histories which don't fit, and end terribly. For those unfamiliar with the Orguss TV series, let me tell you this simply. O02 implies that at the end of the TV series, a second dimensional bomb was set off to correct the dimensional crossovers, and because of that, there was still a world with leftover crossover elements. This does not happen in Orguss. What happeend was the two characters which were pushed into the future when the dimensional bomb went off (at their cause), traveled back in time to prevent the initial explosion from ever happeneing to begin with (in an excellent climactic end), that very fact in itself negates Orguss 02 from ever being able to exist. As for Macross 7 & Macross II, stop being an ass. Macross 7 is superiro to II in every way. Story, animation, mecha, characters, every freakin' way. And like I said, Macross II's animation was far from "all that," especially when you get to the last 2 episodes where the budget was almost enitrely plled out. While Macross 7 may have repeating animation, character & mecha are always consistently high quality.

The Smith's predictions in the final battle had nothing to do with anything that happened prior, it had to do with have the Oracle's insight into the future (which was a literal psychic power.....hey, machiens have souls here, they can have psychic powers too!). This is assumedly the first time that the conflict has ever gone so far. As for Neo dying at the end, I still say he was alive. After taking out Smith(s), they show him still able to see machine souls (and I say they're souls because despite also seeing conduits & such, just what passes through, energy? or programs . I believe they're taking Neo away to become like Ong in Megazone 23 Prt III, a controlled part of the machine that will have to face off against a new hero in a future installment. I don't however believe in that whole returning to the source crap. Humans can't return to the source, because they didn't originate there (only machines & A.I.'s do). Perhaps that was the way of the machines to quanitfy what happened, but it only stands to reason that every so often a human would be able to "think outside the box," and realize their own control over the Matrix. Neo wasn't a re-incarnation of any of the "one's" that lived before, just a repeat of the same anomoly. In order to be a return of that same code from the source, the machines would have to implant a soul into an individual on purpose, also making Neo an A.I. like Smith. That's just too convoluted. On the same note, just because Smith was as powerful as Neo, he wasn't a literal opposite force requiring Neo to die to take out, given the nature of the havoc he wreaked, and the fact that the machines seemed to have even less power over him than they did Neo, it stands to reason that he was a true anomoly of the system (not just a hyper aware human like Neo), which evovled into a virus choosing to destroy everything. The problem Smith posed was a much more dangerous one than Neo ever could be, and its highly unlikely the machines would let that occur repeatedly. As for what happens after, considering the large degree that the machines seem to hate humans (wouldn't it have been cool if Bender turned out to be the main A.I.?, heh), it's doubtful they'd be ready to work together to save the environement, or work together period. Humans would be just as banned from the machine city as they were before. And I saw nothing about letting people who chose to, to remain in the Matrix. All they said was "everyone would be released," which means no humans would be attched to the Matrix. Which means there'd be a shitload of angry people ripped out of a comfy existence, & forced into a battle with what's left of nature for survival. Considering the machines gave the people of Zion what little they had to survive on, would they also be kind enough to give them resources to sustain the larger number of people? Or would they just dump their atrophied asses there & say "you wanted it, you deal with it." It would be a prime time however to show them documentation on "The Last Rennisaunce," just so people are aware that they're the ones who made the mistake to begin with. All things ocnsidered, all I expect from the W's is a rehash of Megazone 23 Prt III. Humans living in a somewhat distant future, in a penned off industrial city, perhaps underground with a false sky, perhaps build above the clouds, who knows. They will realize that they are still to some degree under machine rule, be it only to make sure they stay penned up in their "eden" like city. A final "one" will arise, he'll face off against the machines with the help of the Oracle, and be confrunted with a very old Neo being kept alive by the machines as a defense mechanism.

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

It's not edited out, it's only within the first few episodes, and occurs during the very beginning, & very end of Chilam com signals.

Macross II is vastly inferior to Macross 7, stop being an ass! As for the music, if someone hasn't made it through the last half hour yet, then they obviously haven't heard that travesty of a dub song. If you're watching the DVD, then switch the the Japanese track ASAP, & save yourself the pain of listening to anymore of that craptacular dub. We all know how I feel about Macross II, so I won't go too far into rehashing. Suffice it to say its problems lay much deeper than that ugly mess they call the Metal Siren.

And yes, I know Imporium is spelling with an "I," but I just woke up, so shut up. As Roy so nicely posted: Hmm, which moderator do I listen to??? Perhaps the one that let's me post spoilers! My biggest beef was the ending itself. While I'm "still" trying to figure out just how Neo took out Smith(s) (did letting himself be obsorbed isolate Smith's code so he could destroy him? How did every Smith copy turn back to normal after?), I'd love to know just what the machines did with Neo as they were carrying him off. Were they going to fix his eyes? Absorb him into their conciousness? WHAT! I personally believe that there will be another "sequel," perhaps not under the Matrix title (as it'd be extremely weak to continue something when you say you're going to conclude it) that will follow in the footseps of Megazone 23 Prt III. Think about it. The whole premise was that Shogo went to face the machines on Earth, was absorbed by them, and became their tool. In turn, was also used to further control of the humans even though they were outside of the Megazone. This sounds suspiciously similar to what's going on at the end of the Matrix. Neo saves humanity, the computers too in the process, and despite some opinions, is most definately still "alive" afterwords. We see the machines carrying him off to what could easily be the same fate as Yahagi Shogo. Implication perhaps being that a later movie could take place sometime after the Matrix ended (with Neo either being cryogenically frozen, or his conciosuness fully transfered into the machines), and have a new "hero" wind up having to face off against Neo. This too would explain the need to kill off Trinity, as one of the major annoyances of the Megazone series being why have Shogo go through all that, have his girlfriend killed & then ressurected by Eve, just to have Shogo end up the way he did. Killing Trinity solved that problem right there. I've also heard some complain that things such as how he was able to control the Sentinels & such wasn't explained, even though it was. The implication overall seems to be that machines have souls, just as humans have code (that's why in the Matrix everyone appears as code, but outside of it, Neo after losing his eyes can see the machines souls). Seems an adiquate enough explanation, which also covers the why's & how's of Smith being able to transfer into a living body. To round up though, I think the things which bugged me most were the small but important things that weren't answered. What happens to the Matrix now that everyone will be released? Will the keep it around to support rogue, failing, abandoned, etc programs? What's the purpose in that, as there don't appear to be anywehre near enough of them to support a society. And even then, they'd be livng in a pale imitation of a human existence. Why not give them android bodies? Speaking of bodies, are the machines going to be kind enough to rehabilitate everyone they release from the Matrix? Or will they just dump their atrophied asses in Zion? And while the masses of machines forming a face was a bit cool, just who was the "top" machine? Overall, they still seemed pretty angry at humans, and even if the war is "over," the conflict between the two sides is far from resolved. The people of Zion aren't necessarily ready to stop fighting, though they're in no condition too, I doubt all stupidity & aggressions on that side will stop. Especially with a new onslought of people coming that are freshly unplugged. For that matter, where will everyone get food? While there are still "blue skies" above the surface, everything blow is still pretty jacked up. The same of course goes for the machines, I doubt everyone on that side will be ready to cease aggressions either, especially since their main source of power is now cut off. Ok, discuss!

Heh, I thought so too, I was waiting for Neo to belt out "KAHHH-MEEEH-HAAAHHH-MEEEEEHHHH-HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Bah, having to be spoiler free "sucks!" Anyway, I just saw it a couple hours ago, and I'll say I did like it, though they did cop out with the closure. I'd say it's a modified Megazone 23 Prt II, setting up for a Megazone 23 Prt III style sequel! Overall, I'm satisfied with the resolutions that were there though, but for a concluding chapter, it wasn't terribly conclusive. Perhaps that's to do with them trying to do an anime style "open ended" ending, but missing the whole point that closure is still required. I don't know, but I wouldn't mind an epilogue of some sort. Probably set some years after to match that MZ 23 Prt III style thing I think theyl'll go for. More info once spoilers are allowed

Is it true they put a "too be continued" at the end? Right after they put "to be concluded" at the end of Reloaded? WEAK! (stilll going to see it later though).

So from the sounds of it, then leaned more towards the Part III ending? Luckily, the Big O ending lowered my expectations so much this week, I think I'll be satisfied with anyting even remotely sensicle.

I'm going to see it just to find out whether they're going for a Megazone 23 Prt 2 or 3 style ending

I think we're all adult enough not to lock the topic....

It was $48, not too shabby at all.

Ok, I've taken a more thorough look at the set. The first disc is entirely different from the rest, its subtitles are more "engrish'y," (understandable, and seems to be accurately translated, but the sentance structure is just off). the font itself is smaller, and it's the only disc that uses the www.gundam-seed.net broadband version. Overall the video looks like it was recorded off of the download, onto VHS, then to DVD. Suffice it to say that it looks like a really good fansub tape, but not quite DVD quality. The colors & sharpness want to be there, but just fall a bit short. The audio is a decent stereo sound, but there are some pops & stuff noticably in it. The names seem to be mostly correct, or at least semi-close in sounding to what they're supposed to be. There are some odities though, such as "Jila,"instead of "Kira." All prologues, intro's, eyecatches, endings, & next ep previews are there. Disc's 2-6 however are improved in every area. The translations seem to be "much" better, I'd say on par with the ZZ set. All the menu's reflect the description of disc 6's. There are some strnage things though. The next episode previews are gone, or rather, only the last episode on each disc now has them. In addition, the transition from the prologues to the opening credits seem a bit rough. I've never seen Seed before, so I couldn't say if there's anything clipped, but the chapter break there is definately "rough" for lack of better terms. This goes on until the 3rd opening starts, when things transition smoothly between pologue & opening. The bar on the bottom also isn't visable, & seems to dissapear into the overscan area of the screen (only really visable on my PC display). I'd also say the video is a bit better than Disc 1's, though still not much more than really good fansub VHS quality. The sound is about the same as previously described. Episode count is 8/9/9/9/9/6 Overall, I'm happy with the set, aside from disc one, the subtitles are a lot better than the descriptions I've heard about the individual disc's. It'll definately hold me over until there's an R1 boxset.

Actually, I think there is some throw away comment in II that says something about the Zentradi coming to the Marduk homeworld & being defeated, either by Sylvie or Ishtar. I'm too busy gearing up to watch Gundam Seed to go back & check though. And you damn well knew what I was talking about in regards to the ARMD carriers being used as part of the cannon! Lastly, I doubt if the writers paid much attention at all to any of the Macross story before laying down II, aside from ripping off the event structure from DYRL. These are likely the same exact people who screwed up Orguss 02 by not paying attention to the ending of that series.

Just got it in the mail today. Haven't had a chance to watch it though (I'll watch 2 or 3 episodes later tonight). But hating people that say "yeah I got it" without saying anything else, I popped the first & last disc into my PC's dvd drive. Note: I can't give any fair review on video quality yet, as my PC's playback hardware/software makes everything look soft to begin with, so that'll wait until tomorrow once I've watched it on my standalone. -Source: They seem to have taken the video from multiple sources. The episodes I skimmed through on the first disc have a logo during the next episode previews that say "GUNDAM-SEED.NET," along with another one that has the logo & something about broadband. Mind you this is only during the next episode previews, there seem to be no ohter watermarks anywhere. All I can deduce from this is that these episodes must be from the download broadcast Sunrise did. However....Peaking at the last disc, there's the noticable line on the bottom of the picture, and no such logo during next ep-previews. I assume these to be TV rip episodes. So somewhere between the first & 6th disc, they switched sources. -Subtitles: The subtitles I skimmed through on the first disc seem to be true attempts at translations, but the word tense just isn't quite right. Definately HK originals, and while I haven't watched to any degree, I can comment on how accurate they are, but they "seem" accurate considering the bad sentence structure. One word I recognized being "ZAFT" translated as "ZAFUDO," a perfectly acceptable subtitle. The episodes on the 6th disc I peaked at use an entirely different subtitle font all together, and seem to use a "tighter" translation, or at the very least, better word structure. I won't comment too much on these episodes until I watch them next week (I don't want to go out of order afterall). -Menu's: The first disc has a really basic menu, similar to Bandai's Gundam Wing R1 menu's with the background being the cockpit with scenes playing through the view screen. Selections here aren't in english, but the optiosn are simple enough (play all, subtitle, episode select). The episode select is a simple text menu. The menu on the 6th disc much like everything else is radically different. There we have a character backgrop menu, selections in english, and animated episode select options (scenes playing from episodes). I didn't play anything through very loudly on my PC speakers (dont have my headphones hooked up) so I can't comment on the audio yet either. One minor thing of note though, MI seems to have gotten the gatefold pictures mixed up for the 1st & second disc's. Not a big deal at all (though it did confuse me when I popped in the wrong disc on the Yamato series 3 set, but that's another story). The disc's are numbered, so other than the un-matching pictures, the art is great. When I've gotten to more meat in the episodes, I'll give more specific reviews of the set.

You know, when the first episode of the second season played, I thought "well, it's a little weak, but it'll get better." IT DIDN'T! The whole freakin' second season was weak. THERE IS NO SECOND SEASON OF BIG O, IT ENDED ON THE 13TH EPISODE, PERIOD! I love introspective meditational crap as much as the next guy, if not more. But it absolutely has to be substanciated in something more solid than vague wandering. Evangelion showed how this can be perfectly executed, Orguss did as well, but this ending is nowhere near either of those. Because I'm a completist, and did so love the first season, I'll probably pick up the second season too (during one of RSI's imfamous sales), but I'm definately dissapointed with that weakass ending. It meant nothing, there was no solution to the mystery, or any gratifying conclusion to the mysteries of the first season whatsoever, anywhere in this second season. All the creativity & class is devoid here..... I'll be fair, maybe it's just the fault of a bad dub translation....yeah, that's gotta be it! Seriously though, this "it's all about nothing" is well & fine when you're watching something like Mulholland drive. But when everything was set up so neat & tidy in the first season, this is just such a freakin' huge insult. Don't try to rationalize it Don't let them trick you into thinking it's an artsy way to end it Don't fall for it!

It happens right at the beginning & end of the com signals. Trust me, it's there.

Ok, right off that bat, MACROSS II DOESN'T FOLLOW "ANY" COHESIVE CONTINTUITY." While it may have been intended to follow up the movie, it doesn't follow its continuity anywhere near striclty enough to effectively do so. Plus the fact that it uses the TV colors, & crashed Zentradi ships on the surface (as buildings) doesn't help. Remember, no Grand Cannon, no crashed ships into the Earth! Don't even get me started on its idiotic Macross cannon layout (the ARMD carriesr are "CARRIERS" not cannon barrols. With that said, I'll entertain a theory on applying Macross II: The Marduk were an independent alien race, just like the people on Earth. Whether they were Protoculture influenced or not is irrelivent (thougjh in theory they would to have to have been in order to resemble humanoid appearance). Much in the same way the Zentradi came to Earth, they went to whatever the Marduk homeworld was, had a similar conflict, and were defeated by their "culture." Though how thier siren droaning would have awakened any emotion other than complete & total annoyance is anyones guess. Instead of integrating intol Marduk culture, the Zentradi were enslaved, and their technology used to roam around the galaxy blowinng crap up. They were not intended to be Supervision Army, they weren't really fleshed out in to any degree whatsoever. Why so faithfully follow a religion, just to ignore all that & follow a dictator???

I reccomend everyone who hasn't done so yet, go back & check out the GE:999 TV series (all 2 volumes that are available...). Truly Matsumoto's masterwork, if only those lazy ass HK companies would hurry up & rip the other 4 DVD sets! BTW, has anyone heard anything new on Matsumoto's Dai Yamato? I know the legal dispute with Nishitaka is over (and he two too is doing his own Yamato movie/ova)?